I know when I first started I played marines only. By the time I knew everything there was to know about the marines and how to play the game, I was confident in how to play aliens. I took note of skilled alien opponents and copied their style.
I think the biggest problem with NS is game balance in large servers. Games are always landslides and unless the losing team consists of several skilled players, they are getting steamrolled, which is no fun.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2007
The download page says to go combat first and marine as well. I don't see why they say go combat first since that won't teach you anything about classic gameplay other then how your weapons work perhaps...
I started playing this game to try something different, that is the main reason why I went alien first. It was so different from other FPS games I just had to try and master it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I forgot one thing I guess, people in general are lazy and this game with its high learning curve and skilled (regular) players whooping your a$$ don't help either :/
I tried getting my friend into it by starting off slow with 1 on 1, just showing all the goods.
I was marine and he was alien, it went fine the first few minutes but then I just became competitive and bought shotguns, hmgs and whatnot while he still was a skulk, oh and turrets protecting my base. I didn't let him kill me or anything.. bet no one would get hooked if taught that way. I really regret it now, thinking back. Hardly anything which was the games fault, just plain human error <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1658331:date=Oct 29 2007, 06:42 AM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Oct 29 2007, 06:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1658331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In a successful game, there is no need for the interaction of competitive players with pubbers. Clanners are busy preparing for tournaments, scrimming, playing in pickups, etc. There are so many opportunities to find challenges that pubs are not even part of the food chain. It's only with a dead game like NS where the terminally addicted players that have maybe a shred of skill subject themselves to abhorrent playing conditions in pubs. (I'm not talking about regular players here - I'm talking about those that think they are hard-core vets that get skill-banned.)
Differences in skill should not be a problem for NS2, assuming it is successful enough to hold a decent competitive scene like NS1 did at least in some stages of its life.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even during the most active period of NS, me and most of the other players on my team/s were playing public on a daily basis. In order for competitive players to be able to completely ignore pub play, NS2 will have to be CS sized and lets be honest: It's not even going to come close. The whole pubber/clanner debacle is just going to keep rolling ad infinitum.
It really does depend on what server you play on and how self-aggrandizing the admins are. All these arguements about competitive players being too skilled for pubbers is certainly a case of logical fallacies run amok. I'd like to bring up YO-clan as a positive example from Europe, where the non-######bag competitive players and the non-######bag public players more or less played in harmony for as long as I can remember. Me only being banned from it once (I was fakenicking, they thought I was aimbotting) speaks volumes about the self-restraint of the admins. In my mind there's no doubt that the combination of public and competitive players is what made YO-clan the best european pub, for everyone playing on it.
As for the pubber vs. clanner debate: It's usually helpful to think of both arguing sides as flaming retards and go for the center.
<!--quoteo(post=1658352:date=Oct 29 2007, 11:57 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kouji_San @ Oct 29 2007, 11:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1658352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyway, I'd say abuse from the regular playerbase is the most likely problem. It's not that they don't want to learn. It is more that they want to learn but get a truckload of abuse thrown in their general direction and then think screw it I'm not going to play a game with these Aholes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, this is def a problem or at least a symptom of a greater problem.
I downloaded NS the first night it was released, at 10pm I believe, and played it all night till 10am. It was cool because nobody had played it before so everyone learnt together.
On Xbox Live, for Halo 2 (probably 3 also), you get put into ranked matches. So total n00bs are always playing total n00bs, and as everyone gets better they get put into higher ranking servers. I am unsure of how this could be implemented into steam though. Complex RTS games have single player modes with simple starter levels where you begin to learn the tech tree. Maybe some servers could have simple tech where people could learn the basics?
Short training videos could also be quite helpful to new players.
I didn't read all the way through this thread, but wanted to reply to it anyway, so if I repeat something, sorry.
It was mentioned that there should be an actual tutorial mode in this game. Team fortress 2 I think does it very well, nicely and simply outlining the objectives. of course ns is a bit more complicated than tf2, but in any case, if an actual tutorial mode isn't feasible, then at least do some introductory videos. will keep a lot of people in the game if they have a general idea of what's going on around them. When I first started playing NS, I was fascinated by the concept of an RTS with real people being your units, so that's what kept me in. if I had just picked up the game and tried it out, I would have probably left it within a day. there needs to be a big, easily accessible guide right on the site, the community guide thing is nice, but it's for bare essentials, not really getting any better. I had to search around for a while before I found some more in depth guides on things like skulking and fading, how to dodge as a marine. these are all things you could find out on your own, but it would be a long and painful process.
anyway, sticking to the actual topic, I had a friend of mine try out NS, and he seemed to like it, but never wanted to actually play it, just watch me play it. so he might have liked it, but was probably too complex for him to actually play himself.
I just browsed up and looked at the rest of the thread, and someone mentioned ranking in halo 2. This would likely be very hard to implement a full ranking system, but a server with a new player/bad player label, and an admin who kicked anyone trying to get in and abuse it, might work. I know i tried several marine trainer servers before I actually got very good at marine. that helped out but it was just against alien bots, in a game with everyone newish, would be great. the perfect thing is once someone got too good to play in the server, they would just move on to normal servers. Only problem I foresee, is the server being frequently empty, then it would do no good at all.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1660127:date=Nov 10 2007, 05:20 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fanatic @ Nov 10 2007, 05:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1660127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even during the most active period of NS, me and most of the other players on my team/s were playing public on a daily basis. In order for competitive players to be able to completely ignore pub play, NS2 will have to be CS sized and lets be honest: It's not even going to come close. The whole pubber/clanner debacle is just going to keep rolling ad infinitum.
It really does depend on what server you play on and how self-aggrandizing the admins are. All these arguements about competitive players being too skilled for pubbers is certainly a case of logical fallacies run amok. I'd like to bring up YO-clan as a positive example from Europe, where the non-######bag competitive players and the non-######bag public players more or less played in harmony for as long as I can remember. Me only being banned from it once (I was fakenicking, they thought I was aimbotting) speaks volumes about the self-restraint of the admins. In my mind there's no doubt that the combination of public and competitive players is what made YO-clan the best european pub, for everyone playing on it.
As for the pubber vs. clanner debate: It's usually helpful to think of both arguing sides as flaming retards and go for the center.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, you will still have some competitive players in pubs - this is true even for games like CS.
The point was that this is not necessary if there is a good competitive scene and the game is successful, because competitive players usually have better things to do than whine about how they are treated on a handful of servers. Competitive players make a "life choice" playing on public servers in a successful game. There isn't really much of a choice for a stale, dying game if you haven't quit for some or other reason.
If you have huge skill differences and those with the upper hand ruin the gaming experience for those at the end of the stick, there will always be friction. However, this shouldn't be enough to turn people off from a game unless it happens frequently and is very severe (i.e. there is no chance to overcome the adversity). If you have many servers, a competitive scene that keeps the best busy, and reasonable admins that can police the gaming environment, then the players can usually enjoy the game.
I'm not going to comment on how well NS2 is going to perform as a game on the market, but it should be better than NS1 at least. I don't think it has to be as big as CS to function reasonably well considering friction between competitive and public players. However, I fear that Charlie and Max are designing NS2 in a way that will make individual skill differences much more controlled and not as significant as before, instead stressing teamwork skills. If this is the case, then all that is being discussed with respect to comp/pub conflicts won't even be an issue.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2007
The funny thing is that "stats" aren't a fullproof mesurement in terms of skill. I said it before, but will keep it short this time with a simple statement.
Stats don't say anything about skill, since this game (and more out there, yes even CS) are way too dependant on the environment the highscore player is located.
Meh and a small example: ------- For example in Forgotten Hope (probably the only game I play currently along with CoH and some TF2) I help out a friend of mine when he is in a Sherman Firefly (very good tank destroyer tank, but very easily killed by German armor).
In this case my score is low, but what I do is much more important and "skillfull" then the simple frag/death ratio. Which in my friend his case is high because of what I do. Here's what I do, and I don't get ingame points for: I spot enemy tanks for him, I repair his tank, I defend him from enemy anti tank infantry.
Now if I was not there to help him be waaaaay more effective then without my help his score, even though he is a good shot and knows a thing or two about tactics, is much more open to attack and death then.
Something like that is not messureable in any ranking system, so stats###### are just deluding themselves that they are godly good <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Hence I don't want a silly stat or ranking system in this game, they don't say anything other then oh look at me (situated in camping position) whoring points... bah <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1660202:date=Nov 11 2007, 01:23 PM:name=EliteParakeet)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EliteParakeet @ Nov 11 2007, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1660202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not only a tutorial at the beginning, but make it REQUIRED to do. Sort of like Americas Army, but toned down to not scare people from the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would have to agree, I thought that style of tutorial was really helpful, even having "training" maps was very cool.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1660675:date=Nov 15 2007, 01:44 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Nov 15 2007, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1660675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would have to agree, I thought that style of tutorial was really helpful, even having "training" maps was very cool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't really like the training maps. I think that was because I didn't like AA though.
the forum t0pic is this: "Why do your friends not like NS1?" in the another <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103015" target="_blank">NS-FORUM</a> we have a huge LAN PARTY, and all my friends is LOVE plays with NS. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> and we are happy.
Yea thats the top one on my list too <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> "Too hard to play.." "Why is it so fast , they need to slow it down!!....." "The aliens are stupid, they can't tackle the marines?!..." "The starter guns are too weak the lil dog monsters dont take any damage!" And the list goes on and on ..........sad <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Well, we could go on and on about why some people don't like NS. But why don't some people like BF2? Or WoW? Or HL2, or Halo?
IMO its much better to talk about why people DO like the games they play. Because generally, if one person likes qualities about a game, others do too, and you have your market.
NS is simply the top-tier action team game in existence. It has tenfold the depth of any other game while maintaining a blistering speed and an amazing take on the aliens-vs-marine genre. It has the equivalent of multiple games in one; the game feels completely different whether you're the commander, a marine, a gorge, or any of the different lifeforms, and to add even more, there's Combat. The mapping is the most impressive of pretty much any game out there in terms of scope and variables, and will only become even more insane when updated to the new engine. And its one of the only games where almost every round has moments you can share with friends amongst smiles and nostalgic nods.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1662863:date=Dec 4 2007, 11:53 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Dec 4 2007, 11:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, we could go on and on about why some people don't like NS. But why don't some people like BF2? Or WoW? Or HL2, or Halo?
IMO its much better to talk about why people DO like the games they play. Because generally, if one person likes qualities about a game, others do too, and you have your market.
NS is simply the top-tier action team game in existence. It has tenfold the depth of any other game while maintaining a blistering speed and an amazing take on the aliens-vs-marine genre. It has the equivalent of multiple games in one; the game feels completely different whether you're the commander, a marine, a gorge, or any of the different lifeforms, and to add even more, there's Combat. The mapping is the most impressive of pretty much any game out there in terms of scope and variables, and will only become even more insane when updated to the new engine. And its one of the only games where almost every round has moments you can share with friends amongst smiles and nostalgic nods.
Thats why *I* love NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No no no, you're doing it wrong. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Honestly though this is a thread about where NS may be weak. I love NS. I've been playing it for a long time as you can tell by my join date. I think everyone here loves NS since they're posting on a forum 5 years after the game's release. I agree that part of the reason NS is so fun is because it's hard and because it doesn't appeal to everyone. However, there are areas that could be improved to make NS2 better and more accessible without losing the original greatness. Consider this a "brainstorming session".
Yeah, I think the idea was to find and hopefully create ideas for correcting weaknesses. Skulks do seem to be a bit overpowered, but that's also because those who complain are also trying to be John Rambo. 2-3 guys can take down a small skulk rush easy.
but its true. a lot of ppl just play games to relax, the last they'd think of is using tactics and stuff. thats why games that are simple and you can fool around and do your own thing are very popular. but on the other hand there also are ppl who are pissed of thos i just described. thos are more motivated, advanced and need a little more to have a good time, thats where ns goes on stage
Dark RageJoin Date: 2007-12-05Member: 63081Members
A lot of my friends really liked NS but grew tired of it because of:
Lack of a good comm It is hard to get a good game with smaller group of people (really need at least 10v10 inho) Uber fade rocking newbie marines Where is my gps I am so lost =( 1 team is slacking off and get run over lack of consistent gorge and alien teamwork getting stuck on walls/corners Spawn camping and/or early lock down of a key area
Where NS really shines is when everyone on both sides know what they are doing and you get epic struggles and a pivotal win.
One of my friends used to be a huge NS fan. The reason he doesnt like NS atm is because its not 1.4 which essentially boils down to "3 minute onos" and not enough focus on classic and teamwork, which is what NS did better than any other game for a long time.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
I got a couple of things that can go in here, not from friends not liking it but from just general observation.
1) Playing aliens is not intuitive at all, it takes a vastly different approach to be an effective alien compared to a marine. Day after day "good" marines wrack up amazing kill counts shredding skulks who actually walk in straight lines down long hallways. It isn't easy to understand "Hey, maybe I should wait by this doorway instead of running down a long hallway, as a melee unit, at a marine who has a very effective ranged weapon." I don't get why that's not easy to understand, but apparently it is. I chalk this one up to the gaming demographic (young kids and teens who have no patience or critical thinking skills) and/or lack of any gaming capacity at all.
2) Certain strategies that are not fun to play against at all are some of the more effective ones. In a public server, turret farming is easy to accomplish and is surprisingly effective if the commander has even a basic understanding of how to win. Against aliens with a clue, this won't work out too well, but in a public server there are so many clueless people running around that often there's little that can be done to stop it. Conversely, facing cloaking aliens 20 seconds into the game isn't too much fun either, since there's nothing you can do to stop from being focus walkered until enough obs + A1 are up. Being devoured is also incredibly frustrating (great concept, awful in reality).
3) Commanding is an exercise in frustration at times. The interface was extremely limited in NS and I'm hoping that Source fixed some of the issues that arose in NS. There are so many useful features that would make it a lot easier to command, but the answer was always "engine limitation" or "difficult to impossible to code." Even limited however, still one of the most rewarding gaming experiences I've had is commanding top level games, even when I lost.
I think a tiered tutorial (not EVE in-depth, but with sessions you can watch/play at will, like one labeled "marine gameplay" and another labeled " basic commanding" etc) and really thinking about some of the things included in the game before implementing them will help a lot. I can't imagine thinking "wow being devoured and staring at a red screen for 30 seconds while EAX screws up and blows my eardrums out due to room_type changes looks like awesome fun," because it really isn't. Facing 25 turrets and an electrified turret factory + node is real fun too, because some commanders don't know how to win without spamming the place with electrification and turrets. They'll have both hives, all lifeforms down, and they'll still build every node and electrify it, just to ensure victory against a team they could easily walk into the hive against. Some serious tutorial training on commanding will help the game a lot, I'd make it mandatory to run it before allowing a given steamid to get into the chair.
Of course not all of this is new player issues, but a lot of it is new player issues that cause grief with older players, who in turn harass the ###### out of the newer ones. I think a Guide program on a large scale, not the 15 players we had the last time, would be capable of helping this a lot. Get some people trained up prior to going live with the game, so they know the deal before the game even launches, and when it goes live on steam you have a ton of Guides ready to help out NS2Player who can't figure out why he can't get a shotgun in base 15 seconds in. Link certain things to the tutorial, so people can't even do it until they at least run through a short tutorial, it will do miracles. Sure some people will rage quit instead of spend 2 minutes on a basic tutorial, but those same people would be awful fades, commanders, etc if they tried that role before knowing the smallest thing about it. Seeing how confusing NS can be, I think a lot of people might try out the tutorials as long as they're easily accessible, intuitive, and integrate into real gameplay easily. That would really help the game more than shiny graphics or new guns/lifeforms ever could.
An awards system would also be very helpful I think. People need incentive to do certain things, and awards for some reason work. Chewing resnodes is almost as fun as washing dishes for most people, but throw a nice award in and people will race around the map looking for nodes to chew. Same for dropping structures, etc. Points ingame are temporary (at least right now), make it a BF2 style ongoing stats/awards system and people might think twice about running past that RT next time.
But for any of the still-boring gameplay aspects, see if you can find incentives to get the players to do them. I disagree with some peoples' claim that building structures is boring; it may be for the first couple seconds of a match (since theres so much), but generally it takes so little time and the effect is noticeable immediately.
Perhaps for aliens killing RTs you can add a small <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=101391" target="_blank"><u>res incentive</u></a>.
Perhaps the first IP of the game could be free and/or auto-build, just that the comm still needs to place it.
I read through a few pages and was wondering if anyone mentioned having bots that are shipped with the game. People can figure out how to be a regular marine... That's the easy one. What they need is good quality marine bots so they can practice commanding and practice being an alien.
I found the key concept to keeping me interested when I started was the good community spirit, new players were encouraged to add [NEW] to thier nicks and the more experienced players gave them a helping hand automatically... Comms would assign new players simple jobs like base guarding or RT building, other players would assist the new player by showing them where to go, Comms would assign new players with a vet group to make it easy for the new player to find his squad. New players were advised not to try the alien side for a while , being attacked by the aliens one gets the generally idea of how the aliens operated.
In the end there are two main variables that control how the game is received :
1 Good community
2 Players own attitude
neither are controllable by the developer, no matter how much you adjust the game... and the more you adjust it to suit newer players the more you alienate the older NS crowd.
My friends loved NS, they introduced me to it... But they hate CS, so that might be why.
I can't say I found it that hard to learn what was going on, but then I had been well informed about the game before I played, and (I imagine) unlike most people I spent a little time playing on empty servers to get used to maps and being a skulk.
I think NS2 should have a learning mode, where you have some kind of guide showing you how to do various things, like the start of HL:Opposing Force or BF2. It could be something simple like notes that come up on the screen telling you what things do and what you have to do (which you can turn off in options menu), or something more complex, like a whole map dedicated to learning how to do things, with bots that introduce you to different creatures and weapons and even commander mode.
I think that’s the easiest way for most players to learn how to play, basically be told how to play. You’re still going to get players who complain about dying all the time, but that happens with all new players when they start playing any game.
Also with the introduction of games like BF2, the concept of commanders and teamwork are becoming more understandable to players who would normally not play a HL Mod, which NS is. So that reduces some of the issues.
<!--quoteo(post=1657434:date=Oct 24 2007, 06:32 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Oct 24 2007, 06:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1657434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think most of us have been there. We're really excited about NS1 and just love the game and such, and then we convince a friend to try it out and he/she simply doesn't like it for various reasons. Pointing out the flaws your friends see could be a way to improve gameplay in the future ns2 and make it more attractive to new players?
So here we go, this is the negative feedback I've recieved so far from my friends:
- Aliens doesn't have a commander or anyone telling you what you should be doing - Aliens are all about camping, which is kickable/bannable in other games (for example cs) - I just played 20min as the ######ty skulk who dies all the time, only to try out the fade for 2minutes and then die and lose it - Marines are overpowered - I would like to try to command but everyone would just hate me if I did - I don't really understand what's happening around me
I must admit that back in the days, it took me 3-4 installs & uninstalls before I actually started playing the game, because the learning curve is damn harsh, and everyone sort of expects you to know what to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so agree, most of my friends had the same comments.
The old original NS1 was near perfect imo, where aliens and marines had to develop and acquire resources so that they could get upgrades.
I started to draw away from the game when skills were changed for aliens, marines pretty much stayed the same. Sorry I couldn't specify which changes, but it's been so long since I've touched NS1(I played this game ALOT during those periods though and a few CAL matches)
This is one of the few games I considered to be 'Just Perfect' when it was in it's beginning stages and hoping that it comes to Source soon.
And to games that were ended fast, where either aliens or marines lost to a rush (like a marine with a jetpack and welding a hive) I think those were fair and if the other side could not defend against it, then the players needed to improve and learn from the rush, the game doesn't need to be n00b friendly, players should try to learn from those things and get better <---- by saying this I'm saying that I don't think either marines or aliens were overpowered.
if you don't understand the game, you can read some info first, read the help guidelines on screen or simply join a server with only a few players, or start a langame with friends
Ns1 sux. Honestly if i had a better computer i'd never play it for the following reasons:
1. its to hard to kill good aliens... example... fades that get 150+ kills without dieing once... and thats no exaggeration... it happens many times.
2. it takes an entire team of good marines to kill 1 good alien...<---maybe that'll work... There's something extremely odd about that, or have you people been playing ns for long that you just got used to it?
ex. if it takes 20 people that know how to aim to kill a fade, what happens when the marines have to do other things like conquer territory, get rts, weld, attack hives, attack OTHER aliens... it just gets redicilious and totally unbalanced...
3. Good marines have very little affect on the outcome of the game... basically its up to the commander to know when to spend res... but for aliens, a very good alien totally can screw the marines chances at winning... why should one player be able to screw the entire marine team? lol
4. the guns are complete crap! i'd rather have ANY WW2 gun... atleast then, all i'd need is 1-3 shots to kill something... as opposed to the TSA and their PLASTIC BULLETS LMG/HMG! AHHH!.
5. It takes to long to load a gl... it also shouldn require me to load the whole drum... what if i only have time to load 1...shoot 1...?
Overall the entire gameplay of NS is flawed and weak... a much better approach would be... fast play... someting between what ns and co is now, but with the ns conquest-type gameplay.
I'd want 1 marine to be able to kill 1 fade... and serioussly hurt any aliens behind because i'd be using armor piercing ammo.
Just the same i'd want aliens to respawn fast in any lifeform they wanted... and just the same i dont want marines to have to resarch pgs and mt and AA's... i want the com to just drop gun racks of guns anywhere in the map...
I.e. make the ns type gameplay faster and make the marines more flexible to wage heavy fighting fast in any corner of the map as soon as they can run there...
then you can make new aliens roles, new oc's ...i.e. flamethrower oc lol... and it'll be ok cause both teams can fight.... which is way better then one team being allowed to camp for hours with ocs and 3 good fade players while marines struggle for rts and lmgs for 10 hours... wheres the fun in that.
Here's a few weapons i'd like in ns2:
1. flamethrower with napalm that sticks to enemies and walls and stuctures where if anything touches the fire, will get it stuck to them aswell
2. a automatic rifle of somekind... someithng with a modest 30+ rounds of mean ammo that can penetrate and kill just about anything without reloading...i.e. i dont want to have to reload to kill 1 enemy, but maybe after 3 kills i should start thinking about a good time to reload...
3. replace the hmg with the sorta smartgun type weapon from killzone 1. then give it the auto aim from the aliens movies.
4. a clip fed (10+ rounds) full automatic grenade launcher that has the added option of alternative ammo types including acid rounds... good for burning up ocs, and incendiary as general purpose, and fragmentation good for clearing rooms... and ofcourse buckshot rounds that can do what 4 shotties can't... i.e. spray a 20 ft diameter area.
What ammo the gl has will be up to the guy that uses it... since all marines can pick their weapons at spawn, so they get them when they respawn etc, they will also be allowed to have saved ammo configs for their gl loadout...
Hey if avp2 could have differant grenade rounds, then so can ns2 lol
5. a sadar rocket launcher from avp2 would be nice... it could then lock onto lerks, and the new bigger species that are called "faderks" <- basicaly flying fades lol..
6. marines can take multiple weapons with the only downside being running speed... they can also discard guns/armor at any moment to run faster.
7. a full auto handgun with underside single-shot shottie.
now that would be one hell of a fun game as opposed to ns1 which is "cautious" at what aliens and marines are allowed to do to achieve some sorta "balance" that isn't there, and ultimately makes for long frustrating sieges and ns maps lol.
Comments
I know when I first started I played marines only. By the time I knew everything there was to know about the marines and how to play the game, I was confident in how to play aliens. I took note of skilled alien opponents and copied their style.
I think the biggest problem with NS is game balance in large servers. Games are always landslides and unless the losing team consists of several skilled players, they are getting steamrolled, which is no fun.
I started playing this game to try something different, that is the main reason why I went alien first. It was so different from other FPS games I just had to try and master it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I forgot one thing I guess, people in general are lazy and this game with its high learning curve and skilled (regular) players whooping your a$$ don't help either :/
I was marine and he was alien, it went fine the first few minutes but then I just became competitive and bought shotguns, hmgs and whatnot while he still was a skulk, oh and turrets protecting my base. I didn't let him kill me or anything.. bet no one would get hooked if taught that way. I really regret it now, thinking back. Hardly anything which was the games fault, just plain human error <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Differences in skill should not be a problem for NS2, assuming it is successful enough to hold a decent competitive scene like NS1 did at least in some stages of its life.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even during the most active period of NS, me and most of the other players on my team/s were playing public on a daily basis. In order for competitive players to be able to completely ignore pub play, NS2 will have to be CS sized and lets be honest: It's not even going to come close. The whole pubber/clanner debacle is just going to keep rolling ad infinitum.
It really does depend on what server you play on and how self-aggrandizing the admins are. All these arguements about competitive players being too skilled for pubbers is certainly a case of logical fallacies run amok. I'd like to bring up YO-clan as a positive example from Europe, where the non-######bag competitive players and the non-######bag public players more or less played in harmony for as long as I can remember. Me only being banned from it once (I was fakenicking, they thought I was aimbotting) speaks volumes about the self-restraint of the admins. In my mind there's no doubt that the combination of public and competitive players is what made YO-clan the best european pub, for everyone playing on it.
As for the pubber vs. clanner debate: It's usually helpful to think of both arguing sides as flaming retards and go for the center.
Yeah, this is def a problem or at least a symptom of a greater problem.
I downloaded NS the first night it was released, at 10pm I believe, and played it all night till 10am. It was cool because nobody had played it before so everyone learnt together.
On Xbox Live, for Halo 2 (probably 3 also), you get put into ranked matches. So total n00bs are always playing total n00bs, and as everyone gets better they get put into higher ranking servers. I am unsure of how this could be implemented into steam though. Complex RTS games have single player modes with simple starter levels where you begin to learn the tech tree. Maybe some servers could have simple tech where people could learn the basics?
Short training videos could also be quite helpful to new players.
It was mentioned that there should be an actual tutorial mode in this game. Team fortress 2 I think does it very well, nicely and simply outlining the objectives. of course ns is a bit more complicated than tf2, but in any case, if an actual tutorial mode isn't feasible, then at least do some introductory videos. will keep a lot of people in the game if they have a general idea of what's going on around them. When I first started playing NS, I was fascinated by the concept of an RTS with real people being your units, so that's what kept me in. if I had just picked up the game and tried it out, I would have probably left it within a day. there needs to be a big, easily accessible guide right on the site, the community guide thing is nice, but it's for bare essentials, not really getting any better. I had to search around for a while before I found some more in depth guides on things like skulking and fading, how to dodge as a marine. these are all things you could find out on your own, but it would be a long and painful process.
anyway, sticking to the actual topic, I had a friend of mine try out NS, and he seemed to like it, but never wanted to actually play it, just watch me play it. so he might have liked it, but was probably too complex for him to actually play himself.
I just browsed up and looked at the rest of the thread, and someone mentioned ranking in halo 2. This would likely be very hard to implement a full ranking system, but a server with a new player/bad player label, and an admin who kicked anyone trying to get in and abuse it, might work. I know i tried several marine trainer servers before I actually got very good at marine. that helped out but it was just against alien bots, in a game with everyone newish, would be great. the perfect thing is once someone got too good to play in the server, they would just move on to normal servers. Only problem I foresee, is the server being frequently empty, then it would do no good at all.
It really does depend on what server you play on and how self-aggrandizing the admins are. All these arguements about competitive players being too skilled for pubbers is certainly a case of logical fallacies run amok. I'd like to bring up YO-clan as a positive example from Europe, where the non-######bag competitive players and the non-######bag public players more or less played in harmony for as long as I can remember. Me only being banned from it once (I was fakenicking, they thought I was aimbotting) speaks volumes about the self-restraint of the admins. In my mind there's no doubt that the combination of public and competitive players is what made YO-clan the best european pub, for everyone playing on it.
As for the pubber vs. clanner debate: It's usually helpful to think of both arguing sides as flaming retards and go for the center.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, you will still have some competitive players in pubs - this is true even for games like CS.
The point was that this is not necessary if there is a good competitive scene and the game is successful, because competitive players usually have better things to do than whine about how they are treated on a handful of servers. Competitive players make a "life choice" playing on public servers in a successful game. There isn't really much of a choice for a stale, dying game if you haven't quit for some or other reason.
If you have huge skill differences and those with the upper hand ruin the gaming experience for those at the end of the stick, there will always be friction. However, this shouldn't be enough to turn people off from a game unless it happens frequently and is very severe (i.e. there is no chance to overcome the adversity). If you have many servers, a competitive scene that keeps the best busy, and reasonable admins that can police the gaming environment, then the players can usually enjoy the game.
I'm not going to comment on how well NS2 is going to perform as a game on the market, but it should be better than NS1 at least. I don't think it has to be as big as CS to function reasonably well considering friction between competitive and public players. However, I fear that Charlie and Max are designing NS2 in a way that will make individual skill differences much more controlled and not as significant as before, instead stressing teamwork skills. If this is the case, then all that is being discussed with respect to comp/pub conflicts won't even be an issue.
Stats don't say anything about skill, since this game (and more out there, yes even CS) are way too dependant on the environment the highscore player is located.
Meh and a small example:
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For example in Forgotten Hope (probably the only game I play currently along with CoH and some TF2) I help out a friend of mine when he is in a Sherman Firefly (very good tank destroyer tank, but very easily killed by German armor).
In this case my score is low, but what I do is much more important and "skillfull" then the simple frag/death ratio. Which in my friend his case is high because of what I do. Here's what I do, and I don't get ingame points for: I spot enemy tanks for him, I repair his tank, I defend him from enemy anti tank infantry.
Now if I was not there to help him be waaaaay more effective then without my help his score, even though he is a good shot and knows a thing or two about tactics, is much more open to attack and death then.
Something like that is not messureable in any ranking system, so stats###### are just deluding themselves that they are godly good <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Hence I don't want a silly stat or ranking system in this game, they don't say anything other then oh look at me (situated in camping position) whoring points... bah <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I would have to agree, I thought that style of tutorial was really helpful, even having "training" maps was very cool.
I didn't really like the training maps. I think that was because I didn't like AA though.
"Why do your friends not like NS1?"
in the another <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103015" target="_blank">NS-FORUM</a> we have a huge LAN PARTY, and all my friends is LOVE plays with NS. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> and we are happy.
...
Honestly. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
"Too hard to play.."
"Why is it so fast , they need to slow it down!!....."
"The aliens are stupid, they can't tackle the marines?!..."
"The starter guns are too weak the lil dog monsters dont take any damage!"
And the list goes on and on ..........sad <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
IMO its much better to talk about why people DO like the games they play. Because generally, if one person likes qualities about a game, others do too, and you have your market.
NS is simply the top-tier action team game in existence. It has tenfold the depth of any other game while maintaining a blistering speed and an amazing take on the aliens-vs-marine genre. It has the equivalent of multiple games in one; the game feels completely different whether you're the commander, a marine, a gorge, or any of the different lifeforms, and to add even more, there's Combat. The mapping is the most impressive of pretty much any game out there in terms of scope and variables, and will only become even more insane when updated to the new engine. And its one of the only games where almost every round has moments you can share with friends amongst smiles and nostalgic nods.
Thats why *I* love NS.
IMO its much better to talk about why people DO like the games they play. Because generally, if one person likes qualities about a game, others do too, and you have your market.
NS is simply the top-tier action team game in existence. It has tenfold the depth of any other game while maintaining a blistering speed and an amazing take on the aliens-vs-marine genre. It has the equivalent of multiple games in one; the game feels completely different whether you're the commander, a marine, a gorge, or any of the different lifeforms, and to add even more, there's Combat. The mapping is the most impressive of pretty much any game out there in terms of scope and variables, and will only become even more insane when updated to the new engine. And its one of the only games where almost every round has moments you can share with friends amongst smiles and nostalgic nods.
Thats why *I* love NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No no no, you're doing it wrong. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Honestly though this is a thread about where NS may be weak. I love NS. I've been playing it for a long time as you can tell by my join date. I think everyone here loves NS since they're posting on a forum 5 years after the game's release. I agree that part of the reason NS is so fun is because it's hard and because it doesn't appeal to everyone. However, there are areas that could be improved to make NS2 better and more accessible without losing the original greatness. Consider this a "brainstorming session".
carapace
ocs
Lack of a good comm
It is hard to get a good game with smaller group of people (really need at least 10v10 inho)
Uber fade rocking newbie marines
Where is my gps I am so lost =(
1 team is slacking off and get run over
lack of consistent gorge and alien teamwork
getting stuck on walls/corners
Spawn camping and/or early lock down of a key area
Where NS really shines is when everyone on both sides know what they are doing and you get epic struggles and a pivotal win.
1) Playing aliens is not intuitive at all, it takes a vastly different approach to be an effective alien compared to a marine. Day after day "good" marines wrack up amazing kill counts shredding skulks who actually walk in straight lines down long hallways. It isn't easy to understand "Hey, maybe I should wait by this doorway instead of running down a long hallway, as a melee unit, at a marine who has a very effective ranged weapon." I don't get why that's not easy to understand, but apparently it is. I chalk this one up to the gaming demographic (young kids and teens who have no patience or critical thinking skills) and/or lack of any gaming capacity at all.
2) Certain strategies that are not fun to play against at all are some of the more effective ones. In a public server, turret farming is easy to accomplish and is surprisingly effective if the commander has even a basic understanding of how to win. Against aliens with a clue, this won't work out too well, but in a public server there are so many clueless people running around that often there's little that can be done to stop it. Conversely, facing cloaking aliens 20 seconds into the game isn't too much fun either, since there's nothing you can do to stop from being focus walkered until enough obs + A1 are up. Being devoured is also incredibly frustrating (great concept, awful in reality).
3) Commanding is an exercise in frustration at times. The interface was extremely limited in NS and I'm hoping that Source fixed some of the issues that arose in NS. There are so many useful features that would make it a lot easier to command, but the answer was always "engine limitation" or "difficult to impossible to code." Even limited however, still one of the most rewarding gaming experiences I've had is commanding top level games, even when I lost.
I think a tiered tutorial (not EVE in-depth, but with sessions you can watch/play at will, like one labeled "marine gameplay" and another labeled " basic commanding" etc) and really thinking about some of the things included in the game before implementing them will help a lot. I can't imagine thinking "wow being devoured and staring at a red screen for 30 seconds while EAX screws up and blows my eardrums out due to room_type changes looks like awesome fun," because it really isn't. Facing 25 turrets and an electrified turret factory + node is real fun too, because some commanders don't know how to win without spamming the place with electrification and turrets. They'll have both hives, all lifeforms down, and they'll still build every node and electrify it, just to ensure victory against a team they could easily walk into the hive against. Some serious tutorial training on commanding will help the game a lot, I'd make it mandatory to run it before allowing a given steamid to get into the chair.
Of course not all of this is new player issues, but a lot of it is new player issues that cause grief with older players, who in turn harass the ###### out of the newer ones. I think a Guide program on a large scale, not the 15 players we had the last time, would be capable of helping this a lot. Get some people trained up prior to going live with the game, so they know the deal before the game even launches, and when it goes live on steam you have a ton of Guides ready to help out NS2Player who can't figure out why he can't get a shotgun in base 15 seconds in. Link certain things to the tutorial, so people can't even do it until they at least run through a short tutorial, it will do miracles. Sure some people will rage quit instead of spend 2 minutes on a basic tutorial, but those same people would be awful fades, commanders, etc if they tried that role before knowing the smallest thing about it. Seeing how confusing NS can be, I think a lot of people might try out the tutorials as long as they're easily accessible, intuitive, and integrate into real gameplay easily. That would really help the game more than shiny graphics or new guns/lifeforms ever could.
An awards system would also be very helpful I think. People need incentive to do certain things, and awards for some reason work. Chewing resnodes is almost as fun as washing dishes for most people, but throw a nice award in and people will race around the map looking for nodes to chew. Same for dropping structures, etc. Points ingame are temporary (at least right now), make it a BF2 style ongoing stats/awards system and people might think twice about running past that RT next time.
But for any of the still-boring gameplay aspects, see if you can find incentives to get the players to do them. I disagree with some peoples' claim that building structures is boring; it may be for the first couple seconds of a match (since theres so much), but generally it takes so little time and the effect is noticeable immediately.
Perhaps for aliens killing RTs you can add a small <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=101391" target="_blank"><u>res incentive</u></a>.
Perhaps the first IP of the game could be free and/or auto-build, just that the comm still needs to place it.
In the end there are two main variables that control how the game is received :
1 Good community
2 Players own attitude
neither are controllable by the developer, no matter how much you adjust the game... and the more you adjust it to suit newer players the more you alienate the older NS crowd.
I can't say I found it that hard to learn what was going on, but then I had been well informed about the game before I played, and (I imagine) unlike most people I spent a little time playing on empty servers to get used to maps and being a skulk.
I think NS2 should have a learning mode, where you have some kind of guide showing you how to do various things, like the start of HL:Opposing Force or BF2. It could be something simple like notes that come up on the screen telling you what things do and what you have to do (which you can turn off in options menu), or something more complex, like a whole map dedicated to learning how to do things, with bots that introduce you to different creatures and weapons and even commander mode.
I think that’s the easiest way for most players to learn how to play, basically be told how to play. You’re still going to get players who complain about dying all the time, but that happens with all new players when they start playing any game.
Also with the introduction of games like BF2, the concept of commanders and teamwork are becoming more understandable to players who would normally not play a HL Mod, which NS is. So that reduces some of the issues.
So here we go, this is the negative feedback I've recieved so far from my friends:
- Aliens doesn't have a commander or anyone telling you what you should be doing
- Aliens are all about camping, which is kickable/bannable in other games (for example cs)
- I just played 20min as the ######ty skulk who dies all the time, only to try out the fade for 2minutes and then die and lose it
- Marines are overpowered
- I would like to try to command but everyone would just hate me if I did
- I don't really understand what's happening around me
I must admit that back in the days, it took me 3-4 installs & uninstalls before I actually started playing the game, because the learning curve is damn harsh, and everyone sort of expects you to know what to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so agree, most of my friends had the same comments.
I started to draw away from the game when skills were changed for aliens, marines pretty much stayed the same. Sorry I couldn't specify which changes, but it's been so long since I've touched NS1(I played this game ALOT during those periods though and a few CAL matches)
This is one of the few games I considered to be 'Just Perfect' when it was in it's beginning stages and hoping that it comes to Source soon.
And to games that were ended fast, where either aliens or marines lost to a rush (like a marine with a jetpack and welding a hive) I think those were fair and if the other side could not defend against it, then the players needed to improve and learn from the rush, the game doesn't need to be n00b friendly, players should try to learn from those things and get better <---- by saying this I'm saying that I don't think either marines or aliens were overpowered.
1. its to hard to kill good aliens... example... fades that get 150+ kills without dieing once... and thats no exaggeration... it happens many times.
2. it takes an entire team of good marines to kill 1 good alien...<---maybe that'll work... There's something extremely odd about that, or have you people been playing ns for long that you just got used to it?
ex. if it takes 20 people that know how to aim to kill a fade, what happens when the marines have to do other things like conquer territory, get rts, weld, attack hives, attack OTHER aliens... it just gets redicilious and totally unbalanced...
3. Good marines have very little affect on the outcome of the game... basically its up to the commander to know when to spend res... but for aliens, a very good alien totally can screw the marines chances at winning... why should one player be able to screw the entire marine team? lol
4. the guns are complete crap! i'd rather have ANY WW2 gun... atleast then, all i'd need is 1-3 shots to kill something... as opposed to the TSA and their PLASTIC BULLETS LMG/HMG! AHHH!.
5. It takes to long to load a gl... it also shouldn require me to load the whole drum... what if i only have time to load 1...shoot 1...?
Overall the entire gameplay of NS is flawed and weak... a much better approach would be... fast play... someting between what ns and co is now, but with the ns conquest-type gameplay.
I'd want 1 marine to be able to kill 1 fade... and serioussly hurt any aliens behind because i'd be using armor piercing ammo.
Just the same i'd want aliens to respawn fast in any lifeform they wanted... and just the same i dont want marines to have to resarch pgs and mt and AA's... i want the com to just drop gun racks of guns anywhere in the map...
I.e. make the ns type gameplay faster and make the marines more flexible to wage heavy fighting fast in any corner of the map as soon as they can run there...
then you can make new aliens roles, new oc's ...i.e. flamethrower oc lol... and it'll be ok cause both teams can fight.... which is way better then one team being allowed to camp for hours with ocs and 3 good fade players while marines struggle for rts and lmgs for 10 hours... wheres the fun in that.
Here's a few weapons i'd like in ns2:
1. flamethrower with napalm that sticks to enemies and walls and stuctures where if anything touches the fire, will get it stuck to them aswell
2. a automatic rifle of somekind... someithng with a modest 30+ rounds of mean ammo that can penetrate and kill just about anything without reloading...i.e. i dont want to have to reload to kill 1 enemy, but maybe after 3 kills i should start thinking about a good time to reload...
3. replace the hmg with the sorta smartgun type weapon from killzone 1. then give it the auto aim from the aliens movies.
4. a clip fed (10+ rounds) full automatic grenade launcher that has the added option of alternative ammo types including acid rounds... good for burning up ocs, and incendiary as general purpose, and fragmentation good for clearing rooms... and ofcourse buckshot rounds that can do what 4 shotties can't... i.e. spray a 20 ft diameter area.
What ammo the gl has will be up to the guy that uses it... since all marines can pick their weapons at spawn, so they get them when they respawn etc, they will also be allowed to have saved ammo configs for their gl loadout...
Hey if avp2 could have differant grenade rounds, then so can ns2 lol
5. a sadar rocket launcher from avp2 would be nice... it could then lock onto lerks, and the new bigger species that are called "faderks" <- basicaly flying fades lol..
6. marines can take multiple weapons with the only downside being running speed... they can also discard guns/armor at any moment to run faster.
7. a full auto handgun with underside single-shot shottie.
now that would be one hell of a fun game as opposed to ns1 which is "cautious" at what aliens and marines are allowed to do to achieve some sorta "balance" that isn't there, and ultimately makes for long frustrating sieges and ns maps lol.