<!--quoteo(post=1657827:date=Oct 25 2007, 11:59 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(schkorpio @ Oct 25 2007, 11:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1657827"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I had a friend ages that was into quake 3 and tribes etc those fast games, playing as a marine he was like, this game is waaaay too slow, i can't even run fast enough or jump around like in quake. Then a fade blinked past and killed him, and he's like, this game is waaay too fast, how am i meant to kill that thing..... i sighed. He's the kind of player that will play WoW or diablo and just run through it grab as many kills and gold as possible - not a team player so its just not for some people and thats the way its going to be, and i'd hate for it to change just to accomodate the fence sitters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1657827:date=Oct 25 2007, 10:59 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(schkorpio @ Oct 25 2007, 10:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1657827"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-people yell at them when they do the wrong thing (this is your own fault hateful clan ns players, i'm blaming you lol)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i'm also curious as to how people identify "clanners." there are perhaps two people in the entire NA competitive community that wear tags in pubs.
On top of video tutorials, perhaps another way to ease the learning curve would be to create a new class of icon-wearing NS Helpers. People could sign up (and be approved by the devs or whatnot), and then wear a tag in-game that would tell newbies that they're the ones willing to explain everything to them.
Of course, while a tag is cool and all, many people would see this as too much work. That'd be fine. But some players actually do really enjoy teaching new players anything and everything they should know about NS to be able to have an amazing time with the game.
In said video tutorials, or any other time (maybe with the cl_autohelp 1 popups), it would be mentioned about these icons. NS should always and will always benefit from extra help like such, and I'm sure there would be tons of <i>mature</i> players who would take on the task.
Of course, they would be representing the 'official NS community' in some ways, and hence would be held accountable for their actions. Im sure a few basic rules would apply to them (i.e. no racism and no excessive swearing).
<!--quoteo(post=1657940:date=Oct 26 2007, 03:53 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Oct 26 2007, 03:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1657940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On top of video tutorials, perhaps another way to ease the learning curve would be to create a new class of icon-wearing NS Helpers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(it's been done)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
As everyone else has said, NS is a very complex game that doesn't hold your hand in teaching you much. NS2 needs to do everything it can to have decent tutorials, player instructions, tooltips, and whatever else it can use to feed players information on how to play. There's also the option of making NS2 more intuitive on a basic level, but this might be hard to do without 'dumbing down the game'.
Na aleph, I acctuly dont have a issue with you Abra, Milo, Tycho, or 98% of the community, what I have a issue with is there occational out right blatant negativity, or targeting of a perticular community member, and just hitting home the fact that some times they can be ignorant asses, most of the time these people are pritty dosile and have posative input that benefits the community, and just cos they have given posative input to better UWE and NS doesnt give them a badge to be ###### every now and again when they feel like it.
Sure we cant live in a candy coated world but thats no reason to be a tossa towards someone or their idea's or opinions. Just because you think your a giant with full anonymity on the internet.
One of the big issues as to why my friends havent played NS not liked, tho i suppose it contributes to them, likeing or dislikeing is.
The fact that it requires steam a account with steam, and a version of HL 1 on steam. for your none hard core gamer this can be a bit over whelming, with questions like to i have to pay monthly, why do i need one game to play a completely different other game, the interaction with steams its advertisments get in my way can i turn them off. now how do i even start a game do people join me if i have to join others whats best, what is ping and lag and why do i keep getting removed from servers, that make my screen jump around a lot.
there have been a few games around that have had a instant action button, i think Unreal Tornament did this the best, it instantly cheacked lan for a open server with 50% or more full with room to play on, if no lan servers it instantly joined you to the closest 50% full server with room to play on.
Non of this sign up steam, install steam, update steam, rejister hl, install hl, update hl, install ns, hopefully not update ns, run ns, set up ns, and acctuly find some were to play.
Just install game, update, run game, and click instant play.
I think this is why consoles appealed to people so much, tho now even consoles are starting to be draged down by confussion before you even get into game.
Who cares about learning curve in game, you cant even get in game. I cant wait to see if unreal 3 has a instant play button. 2004 had one, it was the first thing i clicked after watching the gronk with a minigun get blown up by a spider mine.
Honoustly as it stands now there needs to be a tutorial to get into a ns game. thank god NS2 will be stand alone, yet still a little daunting for the newb or casual gamer getting into fps games. get id, install steam, upgrade steam, buy NS2, download, update, run game set up and find a server.
<!--quoteo(post=1657963:date=Oct 27 2007, 01:19 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Oct 27 2007, 01:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1657963"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(it's been done)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember something like that. #learnns or something.
Except i rarely saw those guys, almost never heard them do anything in-game, and it wasnt an official thing.
I mean <i>Icons</i>, similar to the Constie icons. Players would know exactly who to direct their questions to, because they'll know they'll get a full tutorial if they need one.
If this is put through, it would be wise to add in a client variable for those helpers to be able to turn off their icon. That way, should NS2 become really flooded with new players and the workload gets heavy, the helpers would be able to 'take a break'.
<!--quoteo(post=1657997:date=Oct 27 2007, 12:38 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Oct 27 2007, 12:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1657997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I remember something like that. #learnns or something.
Except i rarely saw those guys, almost never heard them do anything in-game, and it wasnt an official thing.
I mean <i>Icons</i>, similar to the Constie icons. Players would know exactly who to direct their questions to, because they'll know they'll get a full tutorial if they need one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is definitely something that's at the forefront of our minds when working on NS2. I know if we say that NS2 will be more "accessible," a lot of people will interpret that as meaning "dumbed down", but I think there's a big difference between the two. On today's podcast with Dave Kircher we talked a bit about this notion (namely using training to introduce complex concepts) and the last podcast we talked making the game more fun right from the get-go. I'm sure we'll be discussing this more on future podcasts and blogs.
In my mind, the biggest problem is that it's just not FUN while you're learning.
As an alien, you're going to be a skulk for ... pretty much the whole game. But skulk deaths still feed marines res, you still spawn slowly, and you get cut down nearly instantly. AND you get no change. I think that's why you see so many OC-building gorges. They want to do SOMETHING besides die instantly to marines so they go gorge.
As marine, you don't have any real options available to you. LMG or pistol? Newbie deaths still feed the other team, and it can be hard to follow commander orders when you have to check the map ever 2 seconds to figure out where he wants you to go.
Personally, I'd like to see an alternate lifeform at level 0 (skulk) so that players could choose a weak ranged attack or a melee class like the skulk. And remove penalties for dying at level 0.
Marines could have different weapons options -- a pump action shotgun (vs assault shotgun that commander buys) for example.
The atmosphere, artwork, etc are all top-notch and I've never heard anyone complain about them.
Someone mentioned maps earlier -- there's a reason that eclipse is so popular. (Same thing happened in CS during its development. Maps like docks and iraq were dropped in favor of simpler maps. See also 2fort in TFC.) Players tend to like fairly simple maps. (Not all players, but in general.)
i cant really comment about my friends initial reactions to playing the game first time, as i've only really recommended the game to people i knew would love it, and did. therefore i might as well describe the problems i first encountered when attempting to learn the game. i cant remember the exact version that i first started playing, it was 1.4 or 1.6 or something like that, about 6mths after the inital game was released i think....
the first thing you want to do when you initially download and install a game like this, is to play each team, every lifeform, shoot every gun, check out the maps and obviously, be the commander. the biggest downside to this is you have no idea what you are doing, just selecting different options at random, and seeing what they do. ultimately you will incur the wrath of the fellow teammates who have played the game for a while, know what they are doing, and get extremely pissed off when you do something stupid (not knowing that you are doing something stupid).
examples:
MARINES - you will inevitably go marines first, because you are used to FPS games with human characters, and attempt to explore your surroundings. you will look at the armory, the phase, test em out, and check out all the other buildings, then go for a walkabout around the map to check it out. because the maps are so big compared to other games you will get lost very quickly. some authoritarian ###### with an attitude is screaming orders and insults at you to do this and that, but you have no idea what he is talking about. you'll cop a torrent of abuse for being such a nub and ruining the game for everyone else. after a while you figure out the whole "commander" business, and decide you want a go. eventually a situation pops up when the comm leaves the chair, and you jump right in before he can react. you have no idea what you are doing, you click every button there is to click, and scroll around the map. you try to build every different type of building and get every type of upgrade, not knowing what they do or if your team needs them or not. you'll cop a torrent of abuse for being such a nub and ruining the game for everyone else. you get kicked from the server, or your team loses. (back then there was no "eject")
ALIENS - first thing you want to do is check out all of the life forms. you try the skulk, think its pretty cool that you can chomp things and see the teeth biting etc, then you realize you die pretty quickly in a fight and want to try a different lifeform. you go gorge because thats the only other lifeform you can be (you have no idea about res at this stage), you discover you can build stuff, and the first thing you build is either an OC, or a chamber. most likely its a chamber that is totally stupid at that stage in the game (back then it was SC, now i guess nowadays you'd say DC) and you cop a torrent of abuse for being such a nub and ruining the game for everyone else. you then discover you need res to get bigger aliens, and spend the next game whoring your res until you can afford a fade, only to discover you cant blink around like everyone else (no +movement back then) and die really quickly. you cop a torrent of abuse for being such a nub and wasting 50 res, ruining the game for everyone else. same goes with lerk. you try it, fly into a marine and die quick. you then get pissed off with the people in the server, decide not to give a ###### about their opinions, and wh0re 80 res so you can onos (oh wait, back then you needed 3 hives to go onos). either way, you onos, and die really quick, because you have no idea what to do. probably because you didnt know much about the upgrades, and probably didnt even get any.
sure a lot of the situations i've presented have been resolved in later releases (+ movement, any lifeform can be gestated with 1 hive, and also combat was introduced to help learn all of the weapons, lifeforms etc) but i guess the biggest problem was the community itself. they harass anyone that does anything that will jeopardize the outcome for their team, and rightly so. they dont know if you're a nub or not, all they know is that YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG, and will point it out in the most abrupt, offensive way possible. i think this is the main factor why people try the game, then leave, never to return. they dont have the patience to recieve endless amounts of crap from other people before they get around the learning curve and work out what they need to do.
in summary, i think the only way to get around this abuse is to introduce a practice mode against bots, and obviously a tutorial as well. combat was a great idea to help people learn a small part of the game (lifeforms, guns etc) but it never addressed issues like res flow, structures, teamwork, and strategy. (not to mentioned it also divided the community, with some seasoned NS veterans opting to play girlie CO instead of "puts hairs on your chest" NS) there's no need to "dumb down" the game at all, just make relevant information easily accessable and understandable to new players. sure when i first played the game it was a relatively new mod, and a pretty tricky one at that. i wasnt expecting a guide or tutorials to help me, and i stuck through it all simply because i loved the concept of the game, and the gameplay itself. now that the game is going retail, its going to come with an instruction manual to help new people come to grips with the game.
ahhh, the joys of alcohol abuse. i think i'll stop typing now.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
It's okay to have a steep learning curve - as long as there are ample resources and opportunities available for players to traverse it. Buzzou describes the average new player's experience pretty well - and most of the players that I know who did not enjoy NS had such experiences.
The solution is definitely not to dumb down the game, but maybe to split up the learning curve into many segments that an average player can enjoy moving through. Training modes, tutorials, animated articles, video guides, rewards/awards, similar-skill servers, a NSguide program that actually works, contests and tournaments - these and many more ways exist to make learning a complex game interesting and enticing. However, if you want people to actually play the game, you have to consider that most simply want to load the game and have fun right away - which is why I think CO (and, to some extent, its mods) was very useful and should still be in NS2 - unless the dev team has completely eliminated the need for such a game-mode.
There needs to be both quick and long-term gains available to make a game successful. The immediate fun of playing something like combat should be the hook, but if learning a more complex mode like classic NS is accessible and very rewarding, you will have many players looking into it.
<!--quoteo(post=1657936:date=Oct 26 2007, 04:01 PM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Oct 26 2007, 04:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1657936"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i'm also curious as to how people identify "clanners." there are perhaps two people in the entire NA competitive community that wear tags in pubs./enigm<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Usually by the presence of two elements. First, skill of such magnitude that it offsets the balance of their team in their favor. Second, <!--quoteo(post=1657902:date=Oct 26 2007, 11:44 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Oct 26 2007, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1657902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->clanners almost never talk in game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been playing NS since it was released. I've played 1000s of hours in public servers and I've played for midtier CAL and veteran ANSL clans. I also ran a public, 28 slot classic server and its accompanying web forums. I love both communities, but I consider myself a pubber first and a clanner second.
(GENERALLY SPEAKING) The pub atmosphere is one of dynamic teamwork, communication, and camaraderie. The clan atmosphere is one of set roles, military-esque terseness, and deadly seriousness.
The stubborn oil of the clanner mentality does not mix with the free-flowing water of the pubber mentality. When the two encounter each other the result is well known: pubbers hate clanners for their aloofness and resent them for their superior skill; clanners hate pubbers for their happy-go-lucky approach (viewing it as a game instead of a competition) and resent them for not appreciating or employing their advanced strategies (I tried to teach them, but they just won't listen!).
(Speaking from first hand knowledge of both vantage points) Most clanners refuse to change their attitudes and styles of play to accommodate the different atmosphere of the public server. Instead of 'joining in', 'becoming one of the guys', they persist with a clan/competitive view of the game. Typically the extent of their teamwork is to commune with their clanmates in ventrilo while enabling "voice_scale 0" and "hud_saytext 0" in the pub. They then proceed to "dominate" and <i>use</i> public players as target practice, not teammates, a fact many of them admit with sadistic glee.
(Speaking as a former serverop and member of the clan community) The remains of the clan community (http://www.ansl.us/forums/) feel victim of unjust persecution from the remaining classic NS server administrators. The clanners, who <i>to this day</i> exhibit the qualities I described above, wonder with sincerity how administrators feel justified in banning them "for skill." They fail to objectively assess their own behavior and see the myriad other aspects that warrant their banning: arrogance, entitlement, isolationism, and abuse of their skill to disrupt rather than contribute. This is a microcosmic drama of what, in NS's more popular days, occurred writ large. Sadly most admins fuel the clanners' sense of injustice by wrongly accusing them of hacking when they could just as easily say that their level of skill is disruptive and leave it at that.<sup>1</sup>
There's another ugly, indeed unfair side of this drama that needs to be noted. Players of a certain aptitude will have an affect on the entire server. The effect is typically negative and, in short, consists of "hogging all the fun." While it may be unfair to ban someone for playing to the best of their abilities, the truth is that if the servers that thrive today were to unban the elite they would soon see a drop in casual pubber attendence and die as a result: no one plays a game to be used as target practice.
Shoester, a veteran NS community member and clan player, has <a href="http://ansl.us/forums/viewtopic.php?t=784" target="_blank">made great efforts to start a veteran-centric server</a> to create an alternative for the banished elites to play at, but his efforts merely underlined the problems too-skilled players can create, and it swiftly died as a result. Thus the clanners mock the low skill on the public players, and then illustrate by their own devices the reason profound skill does not create a functional game environment that others can enjoy.
---- [1] that is precisely how I explained my bans when flocks of the elite, banned from the other pubs, sashayed into my server with the guiltless intent of "hogging all the fun"
<!--quoteo(post=1658002:date=Oct 27 2007, 02:10 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Oct 27 2007, 02:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1658002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[An introductory gameplay tutorial] is definitely something that's at the forefront of our minds when working on NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for posting, it's reassuring to know that the Devs have this on their agenda, and even more encouraging to see that community input is being heard. In other words, <!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro-->I love you man<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.
IMO Ahnteis' post brought up some of the most salient points in the thread, covering both why NS has a hard time attaining and then retaining new players. I know from experience that Buzzou speaks for most newcomers, but most of his observations are well known.
<!--quoteo(post=1658002:date=Oct 27 2007, 02:10 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Oct 27 2007, 02:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1658002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure we'll be discussing this more on future podcasts and blogs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why I'm gonna keep a dam on my many thoughts on how to approach a tutorial since you guys are already on top of it. NS2 has the potential to be groundbreaking (how many other RTS-FPS games are out there? how many other games have such a close-knit 5 year old community?) in how it tutors new players if it applies the lessons learned from NS1. But let's not get all excited and propose helper-icons and the like <i>just yet</i>.
I started typing up a detailed response that went through aleph's post line-by-line, but lost it accidentally when I left the page. Then I decided to make a generalized rebuttal, only to discover his post didn't really have a point other than to demonize clanners. So, I will just say this - currently, I'd estimate there are less than 16 unique competitive players who play on NS pubs in North America on a semi-regular basis. I started playing the first day of NS' public release, and for the longest time, didn't even notice there were competitive players at all. Maybe the behavior of some "clanners" are less than exemplary. But to point to clanners as the main cause, or even a significant reason of why new people don't keep playing NS is just absurd. If you are looking for a scapegoat, look towards the other 99% of players.
Aleph has a really valid point with a few small misconceptions. <!--quoteo(post=1658146:date=Oct 27 2007, 11:19 PM:name=aleph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aleph @ Oct 27 2007, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1658146"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(GENERALLY SPEAKING) The pub atmosphere is one of dynamic teamwork, communication, and camaraderie.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea, very, very generally speaking. The only teamwork displayed in pubs extends only to the people you know and the people you yell at.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->pubbers hate clanners for their aloofness and resent them for their superior skill<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And there is nothing wrong with that. (?)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->clanners hate pubbers for their happy-go-lucky approach (viewing it as a game instead of a competition) and resent them for not appreciating or employing their advanced strategies (I tried to teach them, but they just won't listen!).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Advanced strategies like: Weld me. I don't have a welder. Ya you do. No I don't I gave it to you dude. - pubber gets killed by skulk around corner while running down to the last hive location to demand a turret factory and a phasegate. - The guy in need of welding kills the skulk, picks up the welder and runs back to base to ask the commander for more welders for his teammates in his quest to restore his armor.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shoester, a veteran NS community member and clan player, has <a href="http://ansl.us/forums/viewtopic.php?t=784" target="_blank">made great efforts to start a veteran-centric server</a> to create an alternative for the banished elites to play at, but his efforts merely underlined the problems too-skilled players can create, and it swiftly died as a result. Thus the clanners mock the low skill on the public players, and then illustrate by their own devices the reason profound skill does not create a functional game environment that others can enjoy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In order to fill a server, you need to get the initial few people in there. How do you do that? You're well aware of this problem aleph. This has nothing to do with the skill of the individuals playing in the server. We actually did manage to get a couple of games going and they were all awesome, it was like a pug except nobody knew what they were doing. Hilarity ensued.
I find there's plenty of teamwork in pubs. If you dont see it, its probably because you're not doing it yourself, or you're approaching it badly.
Bind a key to Weld Me. Use the mic, and [insane idea]: be nice. When i command, I tell people exactly what to do, and if they fail, die, blow themselves up, whatever, I tell them its fine. If my team loses, then i say GG. The harshest thing i'll say about nub teammates is 'yeah, we have a 1:2 kill ratio, oh well.'
I've done tons of clanning in my day, and I'm pretty damn good at NS when i'm on my game. But everyone seems to enjoy it when I'm playing with them, whereas the clanners that are being discussed here (a great example is Serge) are barely tolerated by all, and hated by most. Its no wonder they whine about lack of teamwork; noone wants to play with them, let alone help them.
<!--quoteo(post=1658190:date=Oct 28 2007, 07:50 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Oct 28 2007, 07:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1658190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...to point to clanners as the main cause, or even a significant reason of why new people don't keep playing NS is just absurd. If you are looking for a scapegoat, look towards the other 99% of players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well if you were to reply line-by-line to what were admittedly generalizations, it's probably for the best that you lost the post. Hairs can be split, but I think the observations hold their weight.
I don't think (nor did anything in my post imply) that clanners are responsible for the lack of new people joining NS, I was just pointing out some things clan players have trouble perceiving for themselves (usually because it's clouded by their righteous fury over being unjustly banned).
Speaking for myself, I resent when pubbers get in the way of my team winning because they don't give a damn about the people around them because the environment grants them anonymity and thereby absolves them of anything they do.
That's why when playing NS, I have more hours logged in TG than any other server. Some of the people there are certainly uptight, but they do care about fairness and common decency, which goes a very long way.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
edited October 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1658291:date=Oct 28 2007, 07:51 PM:name=aleph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aleph @ Oct 28 2007, 07:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1658291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well if you were to reply line-by-line to what were admittedly generalizations, it's probably for the best that you lost the post. Hairs can be split, but I think the observations hold their weight.
I don't think (nor did anything in my post imply) that clanners are responsible for the lack of new people joining NS, I was just pointing out some things clan players have trouble perceiving for themselves (usually because it's clouded by their righteous fury over being unjustly banned).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a successful game, there is no need for the interaction of competitive players with pubbers. Clanners are busy preparing for tournaments, scrimming, playing in pickups, etc. There are so many opportunities to find challenges that pubs are not even part of the food chain. It's only with a dead game like NS where the terminally addicted players that have maybe a shred of skill subject themselves to abhorrent playing conditions in pubs. (I'm not talking about regular players here - I'm talking about those that think they are hard-core vets that get skill-banned.)
Differences in skill should not be a problem for NS2, assuming it is successful enough to hold a decent competitive scene like NS1 did at least in some stages of its life.
I like ns because my commanders stop medding me and then proceed to call me a "######got bhopper" and tell me that "######got bhoppers dont get medpacks", two minutes later then ips are recycled and turrets are flying down in base. The next round you're skillbanned on one of the few NS servers of a moderate player size.
<!--quoteo(post=1658331:date=Oct 29 2007, 01:42 AM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Oct 29 2007, 01:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1658331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's only with a dead game like NS where the terminally addicted players that have maybe a shred of skill subject themselves to abhorrent playing conditions in pubs. (I'm not talking about regular players here - I'm talking about those that think they are hard-core vets that get skill-banned.)
Differences in skill should not be a problem for NS2, assuming it is successful enough to hold a decent competitive scene like NS1 did at least in some stages of its life.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sho' nuff.. all of that crap I wrote only applies to the later (and present) stages of NS. All useless, really.
<!--quoteo(post=1658332:date=Oct 29 2007, 01:45 AM:name=Leon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leon @ Oct 29 2007, 01:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1658332"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like ns because my commanders stop medding me and then proceed to call me a "######got bhopper" and tell me that "######got bhoppers dont get medpacks", two minutes later then ips are recycled and turrets are flying down in base. The next round you're skillbanned on one of the few NS servers of a moderate player size.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? That's a surprise because that's at least somewhat legible. Most of these angry commanders make about as much sense as a NEX9 post.
<!--quoteo(post=1657940:date=Oct 26 2007, 10:53 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Oct 26 2007, 10:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1657940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On top of video tutorials, perhaps another way to ease the learning curve would be to create a new class of icon-wearing NS Helpers. People could sign up (and be approved by the devs or whatnot), and then wear a tag in-game that would tell newbies that they're the ones willing to explain everything to them.
Of course, while a tag is cool and all, many people would see this as too much work. That'd be fine. But some players actually do really enjoy teaching new players anything and everything they should know about NS to be able to have an amazing time with the game.
In said video tutorials, or any other time (maybe with the cl_autohelp 1 popups), it would be mentioned about these icons. NS should always and will always benefit from extra help like such, and I'm sure there would be tons of <i>mature</i> players who would take on the task.
Of course, they would be representing the 'official NS community' in some ways, and hence would be held accountable for their actions. Im sure a few basic rules would apply to them (i.e. no racism and no excessive swearing).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I too think that the real problem of NS is the complexity. There's too much of everything and no up-to-date tutorial, not to my knowledge at least. So, where do I sign up? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1658114:date=Oct 28 2007, 12:54 AM:name=corpsman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(corpsman @ Oct 28 2007, 12:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1658114"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The one I always hear is "what game engine is that? Quake 1?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well technically they are correct, it is an extended version of that engine <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Anyway, I'd say abuse from the regular playerbase is the most likely problem. It's not that they don't want to learn. It is more that they want to learn but get a truckload of abuse thrown in their general direction and then think screw it I'm not going to play a game with these Aholes.
When I first played NS I was psyched about the game (1 point) I also got a rare user to help me out and actually telling me to go gorge again next round and he'll instruct me what to do (2 points)
I was then drawn into NS, but from what I've seen currently. I played NS ~12 times during the 3.0 era, so it is kind of weird I've seen Ahole behavior vs newbies every time. Each time there would be a new player screwing something up and the regulars going berserk about his noob ###### he is pulling. The newbie then disconnected. This is quite a big part of the problem.
On the game side of the problem it always had a steep learning curve and this BIG problem has always been avoided by the devs (sry guys, but it had to be said <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ) Tutorial FTW. There is a custom map tutorial, but that one is only accessable trough the forums. A place where new players NEVER go...
Comments
its just not for some people and thats the way its going to be, and i'd hate for it to change just to accomodate the fence sitters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
amen
i'm also curious as to how people identify "clanners." there are perhaps two people in the entire NA competitive community that wear tags in pubs.
Of course, while a tag is cool and all, many people would see this as too much work. That'd be fine. But some players actually do really enjoy teaching new players anything and everything they should know about NS to be able to have an amazing time with the game.
In said video tutorials, or any other time (maybe with the cl_autohelp 1 popups), it would be mentioned about these icons. NS should always and will always benefit from extra help like such, and I'm sure there would be tons of <i>mature</i> players who would take on the task.
Of course, they would be representing the 'official NS community' in some ways, and hence would be held accountable for their actions. Im sure a few basic rules would apply to them (i.e. no racism and no excessive swearing).
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(it's been done)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Sure we cant live in a candy coated world but thats no reason to be a tossa towards someone or their idea's or opinions. Just because you think your a giant with full anonymity on the internet.
One of the big issues as to why my friends havent played NS not liked, tho i suppose it contributes to them, likeing or dislikeing is.
The fact that it requires steam a account with steam, and a version of HL 1 on steam. for your none hard core gamer this can be a bit over whelming, with questions like to i have to pay monthly, why do i need one game to play a completely different other game,
the interaction with steams its advertisments get in my way can i turn them off. now how do i even start a game do people join me if i have to join others whats best, what is ping and lag and why do i keep getting removed from servers, that make my screen jump around a lot.
there have been a few games around that have had a instant action button, i think Unreal Tornament did this the best, it instantly cheacked lan for a open server with 50% or more full with room to play on, if no lan servers it instantly joined you to the closest 50% full server with room to play on.
Non of this sign up steam, install steam, update steam, rejister hl, install hl, update hl, install ns, hopefully not update ns, run ns, set up ns, and acctuly find some were to play.
Just install game, update, run game, and click instant play.
I think this is why consoles appealed to people so much, tho now even consoles are starting to be draged down by confussion before you even get into game.
Who cares about learning curve in game, you cant even get in game.
I cant wait to see if unreal 3 has a instant play button. 2004 had one, it was the first thing i clicked after watching the gronk with a minigun get blown up by a spider mine.
Honoustly as it stands now there needs to be a tutorial to get into a ns game. thank god NS2 will be stand alone, yet still a little daunting for the newb or casual gamer getting into fps games.
get id, install steam, upgrade steam, buy NS2, download, update, run game set up and find a server.
I remember something like that. #learnns or something.
Except i rarely saw those guys, almost never heard them do anything in-game, and it wasnt an official thing.
I mean <i>Icons</i>, similar to the Constie icons. Players would know exactly who to direct their questions to, because they'll know they'll get a full tutorial if they need one.
If this is put through, it would be wise to add in a client variable for those helpers to be able to turn off their icon. That way, should NS2 become really flooded with new players and the workload gets heavy, the helpers would be able to 'take a break'.
Except i rarely saw those guys, almost never heard them do anything in-game, and it wasnt an official thing.
I mean <i>Icons</i>, similar to the Constie icons. Players would know exactly who to direct their questions to, because they'll know they'll get a full tutorial if they need one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nsguide
purple gorge icons
As an alien, you're going to be a skulk for ... pretty much the whole game. But skulk deaths still feed marines res, you still spawn slowly, and you get cut down nearly instantly. AND you get no change. I think that's why you see so many OC-building gorges. They want to do SOMETHING besides die instantly to marines so they go gorge.
As marine, you don't have any real options available to you. LMG or pistol? Newbie deaths still feed the other team, and it can be hard to follow commander orders when you have to check the map ever 2 seconds to figure out where he wants you to go.
Personally, I'd like to see an alternate lifeform at level 0 (skulk) so that players could choose a weak ranged attack or a melee class like the skulk. And remove penalties for dying at level 0.
Marines could have different weapons options -- a pump action shotgun (vs assault shotgun that commander buys) for example.
The atmosphere, artwork, etc are all top-notch and I've never heard anyone complain about them.
Someone mentioned maps earlier -- there's a reason that eclipse is so popular. (Same thing happened in CS during its development. Maps like docks and iraq were dropped in favor of simpler maps. See also 2fort in TFC.) Players tend to like fairly simple maps. (Not all players, but in general.)
How would you answer any of these problems without making the game simplistic, boring, and ultimately dumbed-down?
the first thing you want to do when you initially download and install a game like this, is to play each team, every lifeform, shoot every gun, check out the maps and obviously, be the commander. the biggest downside to this is you have no idea what you are doing, just selecting different options at random, and seeing what they do. ultimately you will incur the wrath of the fellow teammates who have played the game for a while, know what they are doing, and get extremely pissed off when you do something stupid (not knowing that you are doing something stupid).
examples:
MARINES - you will inevitably go marines first, because you are used to FPS games with human characters, and attempt to explore your surroundings. you will look at the armory, the phase, test em out, and check out all the other buildings, then go for a walkabout around the map to check it out. because the maps are so big compared to other games you will get lost very quickly. some authoritarian ###### with an attitude is screaming orders and insults at you to do this and that, but you have no idea what he is talking about. you'll cop a torrent of abuse for being such a nub and ruining the game for everyone else.
after a while you figure out the whole "commander" business, and decide you want a go. eventually a situation pops up when the comm leaves the chair, and you jump right in before he can react. you have no idea what you are doing, you click every button there is to click, and scroll around the map. you try to build every different type of building and get every type of upgrade, not knowing what they do or if your team needs them or not. you'll cop a torrent of abuse for being such a nub and ruining the game for everyone else. you get kicked from the server, or your team loses. (back then there was no "eject")
ALIENS - first thing you want to do is check out all of the life forms. you try the skulk, think its pretty cool that you can chomp things and see the teeth biting etc, then you realize you die pretty quickly in a fight and want to try a different lifeform.
you go gorge because thats the only other lifeform you can be (you have no idea about res at this stage), you discover you can build stuff, and the first thing you build is either an OC, or a chamber. most likely its a chamber that is totally stupid at that stage in the game (back then it was SC, now i guess nowadays you'd say DC) and you cop a torrent of abuse for being such a nub and ruining the game for everyone else.
you then discover you need res to get bigger aliens, and spend the next game whoring your res until you can afford a fade, only to discover you cant blink around like everyone else (no +movement back then) and die really quickly. you cop a torrent of abuse for being such a nub and wasting 50 res, ruining the game for everyone else. same goes with lerk. you try it, fly into a marine and die quick.
you then get pissed off with the people in the server, decide not to give a ###### about their opinions, and wh0re 80 res so you can onos (oh wait, back then you needed 3 hives to go onos). either way, you onos, and die really quick, because you have no idea what to do. probably because you didnt know much about the upgrades, and probably didnt even get any.
sure a lot of the situations i've presented have been resolved in later releases (+ movement, any lifeform can be gestated with 1 hive, and also combat was introduced to help learn all of the weapons, lifeforms etc) but i guess the biggest problem was the community itself. they harass anyone that does anything that will jeopardize the outcome for their team, and rightly so. they dont know if you're a nub or not, all they know is that YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG, and will point it out in the most abrupt, offensive way possible. i think this is the main factor why people try the game, then leave, never to return. they dont have the patience to recieve endless amounts of crap from other people before they get around the learning curve and work out what they need to do.
in summary, i think the only way to get around this abuse is to introduce a practice mode against bots, and obviously a tutorial as well. combat was a great idea to help people learn a small part of the game (lifeforms, guns etc) but it never addressed issues like res flow, structures, teamwork, and strategy. (not to mentioned it also divided the community, with some seasoned NS veterans opting to play girlie CO instead of "puts hairs on your chest" NS)
there's no need to "dumb down" the game at all, just make relevant information easily accessable and understandable to new players. sure when i first played the game it was a relatively new mod, and a pretty tricky one at that. i wasnt expecting a guide or tutorials to help me, and i stuck through it all simply because i loved the concept of the game, and the gameplay itself. now that the game is going retail, its going to come with an instruction manual to help new people come to grips with the game.
ahhh, the joys of alcohol abuse. i think i'll stop typing now.
The solution is definitely not to dumb down the game, but maybe to split up the learning curve into many segments that an average player can enjoy moving through. Training modes, tutorials, animated articles, video guides, rewards/awards, similar-skill servers, a NSguide program that actually works, contests and tournaments - these and many more ways exist to make learning a complex game interesting and enticing. However, if you want people to actually play the game, you have to consider that most simply want to load the game and have fun right away - which is why I think CO (and, to some extent, its mods) was very useful and should still be in NS2 - unless the dev team has completely eliminated the need for such a game-mode.
There needs to be both quick and long-term gains available to make a game successful. The immediate fun of playing something like combat should be the hook, but if learning a more complex mode like classic NS is accessible and very rewarding, you will have many players looking into it.
Usually by the presence of two elements. First, skill of such magnitude that it offsets the balance of their team in their favor. Second, <!--quoteo(post=1657902:date=Oct 26 2007, 11:44 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Oct 26 2007, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1657902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->clanners almost never talk in game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been playing NS since it was released. I've played 1000s of hours in public servers and I've played for midtier CAL and veteran ANSL clans. I also ran a public, 28 slot classic server and its accompanying web forums. I love both communities, but I consider myself a pubber first and a clanner second.
(GENERALLY SPEAKING)
The pub atmosphere is one of dynamic teamwork, communication, and camaraderie. The clan atmosphere is one of set roles, military-esque terseness, and deadly seriousness.
The stubborn oil of the clanner mentality does not mix with the free-flowing water of the pubber mentality. When the two encounter each other the result is well known: pubbers hate clanners for their aloofness and resent them for their superior skill; clanners hate pubbers for their happy-go-lucky approach (viewing it as a game instead of a competition) and resent them for not appreciating or employing their advanced strategies (I tried to teach them, but they just won't listen!).
(Speaking from first hand knowledge of both vantage points)
Most clanners refuse to change their attitudes and styles of play to accommodate the different atmosphere of the public server. Instead of 'joining in', 'becoming one of the guys', they persist with a clan/competitive view of the game. Typically the extent of their teamwork is to commune with their clanmates in ventrilo while enabling "voice_scale 0" and "hud_saytext 0" in the pub. They then proceed to "dominate" and <i>use</i> public players as target practice, not teammates, a fact many of them admit with sadistic glee.
(Speaking as a former serverop and member of the clan community)
The remains of the clan community (http://www.ansl.us/forums/) feel victim of unjust persecution from the remaining classic NS server administrators. The clanners, who <i>to this day</i> exhibit the qualities I described above, wonder with sincerity how administrators feel justified in banning them "for skill." They fail to objectively assess their own behavior and see the myriad other aspects that warrant their banning: arrogance, entitlement, isolationism, and abuse of their skill to disrupt rather than contribute. This is a microcosmic drama of what, in NS's more popular days, occurred writ large. Sadly most admins fuel the clanners' sense of injustice by wrongly accusing them of hacking when they could just as easily say that their level of skill is disruptive and leave it at that.<sup>1</sup>
There's another ugly, indeed unfair side of this drama that needs to be noted. Players of a certain aptitude will have an affect on the entire server. The effect is typically negative and, in short, consists of "hogging all the fun." While it may be unfair to ban someone for playing to the best of their abilities, the truth is that if the servers that thrive today were to unban the elite they would soon see a drop in casual pubber attendence and die as a result: no one plays a game to be used as target practice.
Shoester, a veteran NS community member and clan player, has <a href="http://ansl.us/forums/viewtopic.php?t=784" target="_blank">made great efforts to start a veteran-centric server</a> to create an alternative for the banished elites to play at, but his efforts merely underlined the problems too-skilled players can create, and it swiftly died as a result. Thus the clanners mock the low skill on the public players, and then illustrate by their own devices the reason profound skill does not create a functional game environment that others can enjoy.
----
[1] that is precisely how I explained my bans when flocks of the elite, banned from the other pubs, sashayed into my server with the guiltless intent of "hogging all the fun"
Thanks for posting, it's reassuring to know that the Devs have this on their agenda, and even more encouraging to see that community input is being heard. In other words, <!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro-->I love you man<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.
IMO Ahnteis' post brought up some of the most salient points in the thread, covering both why NS has a hard time attaining and then retaining new players. I know from experience that Buzzou speaks for most newcomers, but most of his observations are well known.
<!--quoteo(post=1658002:date=Oct 27 2007, 02:10 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Oct 27 2007, 02:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1658002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure we'll be discussing this more on future podcasts and blogs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why I'm gonna keep a dam on my many thoughts on how to approach a tutorial since you guys are already on top of it. NS2 has the potential to be groundbreaking (how many other RTS-FPS games are out there? how many other games have such a close-knit 5 year old community?) in how it tutors new players if it applies the lessons learned from NS1. But let's not get all excited and propose helper-icons and the like <i>just yet</i>.
<!--quoteo(post=1658146:date=Oct 27 2007, 11:19 PM:name=aleph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aleph @ Oct 27 2007, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1658146"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(GENERALLY SPEAKING)
The pub atmosphere is one of dynamic teamwork, communication, and camaraderie.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, very, very generally speaking. The only teamwork displayed in pubs extends only to the people you know and the people you yell at.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->pubbers hate clanners for their aloofness and resent them for their superior skill<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And there is nothing wrong with that. (?)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->clanners hate pubbers for their happy-go-lucky approach (viewing it as a game instead of a competition) and resent them for not appreciating or employing their advanced strategies (I tried to teach them, but they just won't listen!).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Advanced strategies like:
Weld me.
I don't have a welder.
Ya you do.
No I don't
I gave it to you dude.
- pubber gets killed by skulk around corner while running down to the last hive location to demand a turret factory and a phasegate.
- The guy in need of welding kills the skulk, picks up the welder and runs back to base to ask the commander for more welders for his teammates in his quest to restore his armor.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shoester, a veteran NS community member and clan player, has <a href="http://ansl.us/forums/viewtopic.php?t=784" target="_blank">made great efforts to start a veteran-centric server</a> to create an alternative for the banished elites to play at, but his efforts merely underlined the problems too-skilled players can create, and it swiftly died as a result. Thus the clanners mock the low skill on the public players, and then illustrate by their own devices the reason profound skill does not create a functional game environment that others can enjoy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In order to fill a server, you need to get the initial few people in there. How do you do that? You're well aware of this problem aleph. This has nothing to do with the skill of the individuals playing in the server. We actually did manage to get a couple of games going and they were all awesome, it was like a pug except nobody knew what they were doing. Hilarity ensued.
Bind a key to Weld Me. Use the mic, and [insane idea]: be nice. When i command, I tell people exactly what to do, and if they fail, die, blow themselves up, whatever, I tell them its fine. If my team loses, then i say GG. The harshest thing i'll say about nub teammates is 'yeah, we have a 1:2 kill ratio, oh well.'
I've done tons of clanning in my day, and I'm pretty damn good at NS when i'm on my game. But everyone seems to enjoy it when I'm playing with them, whereas the clanners that are being discussed here (a great example is Serge) are barely tolerated by all, and hated by most. Its no wonder they whine about lack of teamwork; noone wants to play with them, let alone help them.
well if you were to reply line-by-line to what were admittedly generalizations, it's probably for the best that you lost the post. Hairs can be split, but I think the observations hold their weight.
I don't think (nor did anything in my post imply) that clanners are responsible for the lack of new people joining NS, I was just pointing out some things clan players have trouble perceiving for themselves (usually because it's clouded by their righteous fury over being unjustly banned).
Speaking for myself, I resent when pubbers get in the way of my team winning because they don't give a damn about the people around them because the environment grants them anonymity and thereby absolves them of anything they do.
That's why when playing NS, I have more hours logged in TG than any other server. Some of the people there are certainly uptight, but they do care about fairness and common decency, which goes a very long way.
I don't think (nor did anything in my post imply) that clanners are responsible for the lack of new people joining NS, I was just pointing out some things clan players have trouble perceiving for themselves (usually because it's clouded by their righteous fury over being unjustly banned).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a successful game, there is no need for the interaction of competitive players with pubbers. Clanners are busy preparing for tournaments, scrimming, playing in pickups, etc. There are so many opportunities to find challenges that pubs are not even part of the food chain. It's only with a dead game like NS where the terminally addicted players that have maybe a shred of skill subject themselves to abhorrent playing conditions in pubs. (I'm not talking about regular players here - I'm talking about those that think they are hard-core vets that get skill-banned.)
Differences in skill should not be a problem for NS2, assuming it is successful enough to hold a decent competitive scene like NS1 did at least in some stages of its life.
Differences in skill should not be a problem for NS2, assuming it is successful enough to hold a decent competitive scene like NS1 did at least in some stages of its life.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sho' nuff.. all of that crap I wrote only applies to the later (and present) stages of NS. All useless, really.
Really? That's a surprise because that's at least somewhat legible. Most of these angry commanders make about as much sense as a NEX9 post.
Of course, while a tag is cool and all, many people would see this as too much work. That'd be fine. But some players actually do really enjoy teaching new players anything and everything they should know about NS to be able to have an amazing time with the game.
In said video tutorials, or any other time (maybe with the cl_autohelp 1 popups), it would be mentioned about these icons. NS should always and will always benefit from extra help like such, and I'm sure there would be tons of <i>mature</i> players who would take on the task.
Of course, they would be representing the 'official NS community' in some ways, and hence would be held accountable for their actions. Im sure a few basic rules would apply to them (i.e. no racism and no excessive swearing).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I too think that the real problem of NS is the complexity. There's too much of everything and no up-to-date tutorial, not to my knowledge at least. So, where do I sign up? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Well technically they are correct, it is an extended version of that engine <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Anyway, I'd say abuse from the regular playerbase is the most likely problem. It's not that they don't want to learn. It is more that they want to learn but get a truckload of abuse thrown in their general direction and then think screw it I'm not going to play a game with these Aholes.
When I first played NS I was psyched about the game (1 point) I also got a rare user to help me out and actually telling me to go gorge again next round and he'll instruct me what to do (2 points)
I was then drawn into NS, but from what I've seen currently. I played NS ~12 times during the 3.0 era, so it is kind of weird I've seen Ahole behavior vs newbies every time. Each time there would be a new player screwing something up and the regulars going berserk about his noob ###### he is pulling. The newbie then disconnected. This is quite a big part of the problem.
On the game side of the problem it always had a steep learning curve and this BIG problem has always been avoided by the devs (sry guys, but it had to be said <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ) Tutorial FTW. There is a custom map tutorial, but that one is only accessable trough the forums. A place where new players NEVER go...