Commander and The Nano Grid Matrix
CanadianWolverine
Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13249Members
Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13249Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Want more visceral action as Commander?</div>I brainstormed this idea in some posts to the stickied thread about the Commander experience and so I thought I would throw it out there here to discuss, away from filling up space in the stickied thread. I want to know your thoughts on this idea:
<b><u>Commander Becomes Neo</b></u>
<u>Commander Interface</u>
The interface of the Commander becomes more World of Warcraft like, in the sense that the Commander can place hot keys all over the place, for just about anything. The Commander would be able to follow the progress of the tech tree, view in tiny screens what the marine's see so that they have a clue what the grunt is up to and dealing with, that there would be info on their condition and gear load out, what role in the team they prefer (like a class). This would be to free up more viewing on the main screen while always being informed in real time the progress of various important tasks. Basicly picture the screen with buttons and info displayed all around the edge. Need it different? Point, right click, select, drag, and so on.
<u>Commanding Simplified</u>
Next up, reduce the micromanagement, let the grunts administer the meds. Set the parameters and let the grunts pick the gear up from the structures themselves. That still leaves the commander plenty, like refilling the meds and ammo those grunts carry, scanning, researching, handing out instructions, dropping new structures and keeping an eye on "The Big Picture" aka blips on the map.
<u>Commander View Point</u>
Have "zoom" be that you can be all the way from over the shoulder view of a hologram (more on that later) up to room, area, region, entire map. The higher zoom level you are, the more everything is represented in general symbols, in over the shoulder the map shows the paths of all the infrastructure of the map, like electrical wiring and steam pipes, nanite pathways, plumbing, plasma coils, whatever. Like the matrix code, only like schematics and its not all green but various colors for each type of conduit. Except if there is Dynamic Infestation, the schematics are dimmed and grey.
<u>Commander As "Map Hacker"</u>
This is where being the Commander really starts to shine and all your programs come together. The Dynamic Infestation is taking over the map, turning it into something not of human design, and power and programs are no longer functioning like they should. The commander needs to coordinate with the marines in the "real map" to fix the schematics of the map so that the commander can offer full support. Databases need to be entered through hardwired back channels, power needs to be diverted, new programs over riding old instructions need to be uploaded, permissions for root user need to be accessed, instuctions need to be rebooted to key components ... Results, lights turn on and off, computer screens turn on and off, doors that were locked unlock and function again, elevators function again, conveyor belts and machinery of all types is put into play again, atmosphere is restored or vented, generators are repaired, self destruct mechanisms are deactivated ... or just about any other goal you can think of. Only thing is the Dynamic Infestation (DI) clogs and severs connections, Kharaa life forms can remove components that were welded back in place or repaired again. In this, the commander also gets a holographic avatar, which may or may not be able to be shown to the marines because of what holographic projectors may be online to link to the marine's Heads Up Display (HUD) because of that damn DI. Now the marines know where the commander has their focus, even though they may be zoomed all the way up to the symbolic map.
<u>Goals of Idea</u>
This idea is meant to encourage team play, having the commander and marines on the ground working in conjunction.
This idea is meant to make it easier to play the commander.
This idea is meant to make it more exciting to play the commander.
This idea is meant to give Dynamic Infestation another purpose, slow the connection between Commander and Marines.
This idea is meant to show the Marine's home territory advantage and the challenge of taking a map back from the Kharaa.
<u>Conclusion</u>
Obviously, I like this idea or wouldn't have posted a thread about it, but it has been said it makes it to much like Dystopia. I don't understand this, probably because I haven't played Dystopia, so I was hoping I might have Dystopia explained to me in better detail and why it would be a bad thing for NS2 to be like that game.
This idea is inspired by this typed up by Max, which can be found here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2006/12/dynamic_infestation" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2006...mic_infestation</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In addition to being an atmospheric visual effect, having dynamic infestation gives us opportunities to develop some interesting game play elements. High on our list is having map entities which are triggered when an area becomes infested or uninfested. For example, you could have a computer console that shuts down when overrun by infestation and causes the lights in the room to go out. If the marines clear out the room and fight back the infestation, the system comes back online and the lights flicker on to fill the room. What about abilities and technology which only function when players are on their home turf?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please, I want to hear your thoughts and I want to discuss this idea.
<b><u>Commander Becomes Neo</b></u>
<u>Commander Interface</u>
The interface of the Commander becomes more World of Warcraft like, in the sense that the Commander can place hot keys all over the place, for just about anything. The Commander would be able to follow the progress of the tech tree, view in tiny screens what the marine's see so that they have a clue what the grunt is up to and dealing with, that there would be info on their condition and gear load out, what role in the team they prefer (like a class). This would be to free up more viewing on the main screen while always being informed in real time the progress of various important tasks. Basicly picture the screen with buttons and info displayed all around the edge. Need it different? Point, right click, select, drag, and so on.
<u>Commanding Simplified</u>
Next up, reduce the micromanagement, let the grunts administer the meds. Set the parameters and let the grunts pick the gear up from the structures themselves. That still leaves the commander plenty, like refilling the meds and ammo those grunts carry, scanning, researching, handing out instructions, dropping new structures and keeping an eye on "The Big Picture" aka blips on the map.
<u>Commander View Point</u>
Have "zoom" be that you can be all the way from over the shoulder view of a hologram (more on that later) up to room, area, region, entire map. The higher zoom level you are, the more everything is represented in general symbols, in over the shoulder the map shows the paths of all the infrastructure of the map, like electrical wiring and steam pipes, nanite pathways, plumbing, plasma coils, whatever. Like the matrix code, only like schematics and its not all green but various colors for each type of conduit. Except if there is Dynamic Infestation, the schematics are dimmed and grey.
<u>Commander As "Map Hacker"</u>
This is where being the Commander really starts to shine and all your programs come together. The Dynamic Infestation is taking over the map, turning it into something not of human design, and power and programs are no longer functioning like they should. The commander needs to coordinate with the marines in the "real map" to fix the schematics of the map so that the commander can offer full support. Databases need to be entered through hardwired back channels, power needs to be diverted, new programs over riding old instructions need to be uploaded, permissions for root user need to be accessed, instuctions need to be rebooted to key components ... Results, lights turn on and off, computer screens turn on and off, doors that were locked unlock and function again, elevators function again, conveyor belts and machinery of all types is put into play again, atmosphere is restored or vented, generators are repaired, self destruct mechanisms are deactivated ... or just about any other goal you can think of. Only thing is the Dynamic Infestation (DI) clogs and severs connections, Kharaa life forms can remove components that were welded back in place or repaired again. In this, the commander also gets a holographic avatar, which may or may not be able to be shown to the marines because of what holographic projectors may be online to link to the marine's Heads Up Display (HUD) because of that damn DI. Now the marines know where the commander has their focus, even though they may be zoomed all the way up to the symbolic map.
<u>Goals of Idea</u>
This idea is meant to encourage team play, having the commander and marines on the ground working in conjunction.
This idea is meant to make it easier to play the commander.
This idea is meant to make it more exciting to play the commander.
This idea is meant to give Dynamic Infestation another purpose, slow the connection between Commander and Marines.
This idea is meant to show the Marine's home territory advantage and the challenge of taking a map back from the Kharaa.
<u>Conclusion</u>
Obviously, I like this idea or wouldn't have posted a thread about it, but it has been said it makes it to much like Dystopia. I don't understand this, probably because I haven't played Dystopia, so I was hoping I might have Dystopia explained to me in better detail and why it would be a bad thing for NS2 to be like that game.
This idea is inspired by this typed up by Max, which can be found here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2006/12/dynamic_infestation" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2006...mic_infestation</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In addition to being an atmospheric visual effect, having dynamic infestation gives us opportunities to develop some interesting game play elements. High on our list is having map entities which are triggered when an area becomes infested or uninfested. For example, you could have a computer console that shuts down when overrun by infestation and causes the lights in the room to go out. If the marines clear out the room and fight back the infestation, the system comes back online and the lights flicker on to fill the room. What about abilities and technology which only function when players are on their home turf?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please, I want to hear your thoughts and I want to discuss this idea.
Comments
Are you saying you don't like DI period or that you don't like that a commander would be countered by the Kharaa using DI as part of my idea?
Already a Commander's attention can be diverted, all you see as a commander in NS1 is very limited, it is already possible to forget what is happening back at base while you bust out meds and ammo on the other side of the map. Part of the idea addresses just that, the ability to open up a Commander's view and detail of the map they are in.
Please elaborate on what you dislike about the idea of The Commander Becoming Neo ... that is a reference to The Matrix Trilogy, just in case someone isn't familar with it.
The commander should be how the commander is in NS1
I put the idea up because I thought it would work.
Obviously, I also disagree on that the Commander should be how it is in NS1. The NS1 Commander has a narrow focus: they can be caught up meeting requests for meds and before you know it, the buildings aren't dropped, the tech isn't going and you are out of resources. It is all too common that in NS1, players will even go to the point of letting a match die, takes all of 30 secs to 1 min of inactivity, just to avoid being the commander. New players who attempt to learn the Command Chair are all too often voted out, if not kicked or banned from the server. A Commander can be regulated to such action packed activities as droping weapons while being ######ed at and pinging a hive so the auto bots can do their thing. And only 5 hotkeys? Oy vey, there is no way I want that for NS2 if they actually want a commercially viable product aka fun game.
I put the idea up because I thought it would work.
Obviously, I also disagree on that the Commander should be how it is in NS1. The NS1 Commander has a narrow focus: they can be caught up meeting requests for meds and before you know it, the buildings aren't dropped, the tech isn't going and you are out of resources. It is all too common that in NS1, players will even go to the point of letting a match die, takes all of 30 secs to 1 min of inactivity, just to avoid being the commander. New players who attempt to learn the Command Chair are all too often voted out, if not kicked or banned from the server. A Commander can be regulated to such action packed activities as droping weapons while being ######ed at and pinging a hive so the auto bots can do their thing. And only 5 hotkeys? Oy vey, there is no way I want that for NS2 if they actually want a commercially viable product aka fun game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just like people who play any game for the first time - suck at it.
Stop trying to dumb down NS.
Its good because its not easy.
Yay.
Vote <!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->YES <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->to Hydracruiser.. and drugs
I'm sorry, but what are we misunderstanding here? The Commander isn't battling the Dynamic Infestation, the whole Marine team is trying to eradicate it.
I might get the impression you didn't read my whole post, read this from the first post:
This idea is inspired by this typed up by Max, which can be found here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2006...mic_infestation" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2006...mic_infestation</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In addition to being an atmospheric visual effect, having dynamic infestation gives us opportunities to develop some interesting game play elements. High on our list is having map entities which are triggered when an area becomes infested or uninfested. For example, you could have a computer console that shuts down when overrun by infestation and causes the lights in the room to go out. If the marines clear out the room and fight back the infestation, the system comes back online and the lights flicker on to fill the room. What about abilities and technology which only function when players are on their home turf?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We don't know yet what the DI grows out from, many things have been suggested and have whole threads dedicated to that. Who knows, maybe DI only grows so far without the Kharaa providing it with food and encouragement.
Next up:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just like people who play any game for the first time - suck at it.
Stop trying to dumb down NS.
Its good because its not easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, this is giving me the impression you didn't even read the full length original post, and here I thought I made it easier by breaking it up into sub headings.
The idea is not trying to "dumb" down anything, in fact, just the opposite. As the Commander is now, its not very smart either, there are a ton of interface frustrations and the learning curve is so steep its game breaking. To how many people is it obvious that a NS1 Commander can use the QWERASDFZXCV hot keys to find what they need faster and that only works if you use Ctrl+12345 on buildings to keep everything together that is essential. Hardly intuitive or a simple minimal click system.
If anything, I want to see more for the Commander to do, not just open doors. I would love to see the Commander work elevators, power generators, database computers, navigational computers, wall security turrets, maintenance robots, security robots, cameras of all kinds, and anything you can think of that the map (ship, colony, mining operation) controls with its infrastructure.
Do you really want to keep a role that is actively avoided? Why is it not fun? What could make it fun? Those questions is why I came up with this idea.
And view point is one of the very important things that need addressing. I suggest the Commander gets a holographic avatar, that basicly runs around at top speed (the speed communications of the Nano Grid Matrix basicly, light speed?). So just like a marine, you would be limited to where a marine with full mobility (jet pack with no energy loss?) can go so you understand where stuff can go and see stuff from their perspective as well. Now there would be very little concern about no clip and the Commander could jump from height level to height level with ease, especially with a Zoom feature that goes to different map scales, so if you need to see the whole picture you would easily jump from one "zoom" to the next.
Only other thing that might hamper this would be how objects are spawned that a Commander drops, so I would suggest that objects are spawned in front of the Commander's holographic avatar, maybe kind of like how a gun or whatever is dropped. Just an idea.
Er, does anyone know where I could find a host for my picture?
The rest of your ideas, eh...They've been found elsewhere, and/or they're kinda silly. Having an extra 'e' thingy would be cool though. IE, hack into a doorlock and make it work again or whatnot (instead of welding it...which really makes no sense at all except for it making the com spend 5 res and hope that marine goes to X spot and welds properly).
Sorry, did I say anything about spending res? *shrug* Oh well, I tried explaining the idea with words, now I will try pictures.
Here is a concept picture for NS2 from the gallery, this is what a marine would see:
<a href="http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=envconcept03la8.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5673/envconcept03la8.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
Here I took the image and used ms paint on it to try to show what the Commander might see with my idea, my apologies for the quality, I would love to see what a professional graphic designer could do:
<a href="http://img47.imageshack.us/my.php?image=envconcept03commandercohe3.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/7118/envconcept03commandercohe3.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
Here is where those connections to the Nano Grid would have problems, stuff the marines need to burn and the would cause "fog of war" for the Commander:
<a href="http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=envconcept06xr3.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/3083/envconcept06xr3.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
Does that help clear up my idea at all?
[...]
Please, I want to hear your thoughts and I want to discuss this idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You put time into making this topic didn't you? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I think you have some interesting ideas and while they may not all apply to NS perfectly there are some interesting ideas that can be inspired from such brainstorming.
<!--quoteo(post=1646996:date=Sep 2 2007, 01:49 AM:name=Stars)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stars @ Sep 2 2007, 01:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1646996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just like people who play any game for the first time - suck at it.
Stop trying to dumb down NS.
Its good because its not easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's not talking about "dumbing down" NS and making a red herring statement like that doesn't help the discussion.
<!--quoteo(post=1647057:date=Sep 2 2007, 10:02 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Sep 2 2007, 10:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea is not trying to "dumb" down anything, in fact, just the opposite. As the Commander is now, its not very smart either, there are a ton of interface frustrations and the learning curve is so steep its game breaking. To how many people is it obvious that a NS1 Commander can use the QWERASDFZXCV hot keys to find what they need faster and that only works if you use Ctrl+12345 on buildings to keep everything together that is essential. Hardly intuitive or a simple minimal click system.
If anything, I want to see more for the Commander to do, not just open doors. I would love to see the Commander work elevators, power generators, database computers, navigational computers, wall security turrets, maintenance robots, security robots, cameras of all kinds, and anything you can think of that the map (ship, colony, mining operation) controls with its infrastructure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he's just comming up with ideas that could be further investigated and tried out first. There is a process of comming up with new ideas and when brainstorming you never throw any idea out. You try to refine and test ideas as they go, perhaps finding cool new ideas in the process and then either implement or remove as needed until you get something that works together seemlessly. The commander interface is far from perfect. And you can easily simplify one area to make it more streamline will adding depth with new abilities, waypointing, researchables, wtf-ever-it-is, etc. and it become actually something with more depth.
Good software products (and the commander interface IS software in the game, no?) have good organization which simplifies and streamlines the user interface, but yet can become more technical and detailed because there are functions within functions.
<!--quoteo(post=1647057:date=Sep 2 2007, 10:02 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Sep 2 2007, 10:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry, but what are we misunderstanding here? The Commander isn't battling the Dynamic Infestation, the whole Marine team is trying to eradicate it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually the NS1 alien lifeforms we think of (skulk, gorge, lerk, fade, onos) ARE part of the infestation -- part of the Hivemind. They are just the response the to mobile marine unit threat stimulus. NS2 has an opportunity to reinforce that point and feel of infestation with DI. Max has even stated a desire to give that feel with the DI technology if memory serves.
The commander could very well spend his time battling infestation in NS2 - there's people that are always complaining that there's not enough to do as a comm in NS, but the instant someone comes up with some good ideas, such as fighting DI as part of the game, you shut it down. Explain to me how this works.
Anyways, I think that most of these ideas could work. it wouldn't "dumb down" NS, it would simply change it.
This is more of a step towards immersion, rather than a step towards new abilities. While there are new abilities included in Canadian's suggestion, it is much more emphasized on the fact that the player is given a feel that they <i>are</i> the commander. This goes a long way to help in atmosphere.
You SO get the idea. Thank you.
<!--quoteo(post=1647757:date=Sep 6 2007, 05:08 AM:name=niaccurshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(niaccurshi @ Sep 6 2007, 05:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wasn't responding to the idea, just the claim elsewhere in the thread that for some reason some people think the comm hasn't got enough to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, there you go! That helps clear things up a bit.
So, what do you think of the idea then? Spruce up the ol'Commander experience and all?
The interface of the Commander becomes more World of Warcraft like, in the sense that the Commander can place hot keys all over the place, for just about anything. The Commander would be able to follow the progress of the tech tree, view in tiny screens what the marine's see so that they have a clue what the grunt is up to and dealing with, that there would be info on their condition and gear load out, what role in the team they prefer (like a class). This would be to free up more viewing on the main screen while always being informed in real time the progress of various important tasks. Basicly picture the screen with buttons and info displayed all around the edge. Need it different? Point, right click, select, drag, and so on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think there are some good ideas that are worth a try in this paragraph. I think there also needs to be other ideas that have been suggested all about the forum. I think in all I'm most enthusiastic about the potential for commanding in the future.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Next up, reduce the micromanagement, let the grunts administer the meds. Set the parameters and let the grunts pick the gear up from the structures themselves. That still leaves the commander plenty, like refilling the meds and ammo those grunts carry, scanning, researching, handing out instructions, dropping new structures and keeping an eye on "The Big Picture" aka blips on the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that micromanagement needs to be reduced but I just still don't like the idea of marines doing more of it, so I guess I'm in catch 22. What's the difference between this and building an armory where the marines have a PG, for example? What I think is that commanders should be able to automate certain resupply (ala combat) things. This would be really good for new commanders, and they'd be able to turn it on and off, marines would be required to call for supplies as usual. Of course it wouldn't do it with low res, and it'd be a slow rate and would drop in a general area rather than right by the marine. Pro-comm's would of course much more benefit from doing the micromanaging that they're skilled enough to do. Marines do need to "evolve" their tech to deal with the advances of aliens, but those sort of ideas like mobile scanners, etc, are all for another thread.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have "zoom" be that you can be all the way from over the shoulder view of a hologram (more on that later) up to room, area, region, entire map. The higher zoom level you are, the more everything is represented in general symbols, in over the shoulder the map shows the paths of all the infrastructure of the map, like electrical wiring and steam pipes, nanite pathways, plumbing, plasma coils, whatever. Like the matrix code, only like schematics and its not all green but various colors for each type of conduit. Except if there is Dynamic Infestation, the schematics are dimmed and grey.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds cool but what is it that the commander would gain from being able to do this? I don't know that it necessarily adds any gameplay benefits.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is where being the Commander really starts to shine and all your programs come together. The Dynamic Infestation is taking over the map, turning it into something not of human design, and power and programs are no longer functioning like they should. The commander needs to coordinate with the marines in the "real map" to fix the schematics of the map so that the commander can offer full support. Databases need to be entered through hardwired back channels, power needs to be diverted, new programs over riding old instructions need to be uploaded, permissions for root user need to be accessed, instuctions need to be rebooted to key components ... Results, lights turn on and off, computer screens turn on and off, doors that were locked unlock and function again, elevators function again, conveyor belts and machinery of all types is put into play again, atmosphere is restored or vented, generators are repaired, self destruct mechanisms are deactivated ... or just about any other goal you can think of. Only thing is the Dynamic Infestation (DI) clogs and severs connections, Kharaa life forms can remove components that were welded back in place or repaired again. In this, the commander also gets a holographic avatar, which may or may not be able to be shown to the marines because of what holographic projectors may be online to link to the marine's Heads Up Display (HUD) because of that damn DI. Now the marines know where the commander has their focus, even though they may be zoomed all the way up to the symbolic map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't really comment on this because I don't know how complex NS2 would end up being. That being said I am not convinced that the commander should be constraining themselves to a single area or why it should be a first/third person action...surely the time it would take to zoom into an area, do your thing, then zoom out and back into an area would be counter-intuitive compared to just doing it from the birds eye view? I dunno...
<!--quoteo(post=1647811:date=Sep 6 2007, 11:57 AM:name=niaccurshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(niaccurshi @ Sep 6 2007, 11:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647811"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't really comment on this because I don't know how complex NS2 would end up being. That being said I am not convinced that the commander should be constraining themselves to a single area or why it should be a first/third person action...surely the time it would take to zoom into an area, do your thing, then zoom out and back into an area would be counter-intuitive compared to just doing it from the birds eye view? I dunno...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I can clarify on this, this part of the idea was inspired by 2 things:
1) The enjoyment I had with Supreme Commander when I could see the big picture, then zoom right in to take care of something close to the ground.
2) A desire to see maps with multiple levels.
I always struggled with dropping structures and weapons on some maps, the object would land on something I had no intention of putting there above the desired location. And while I was struggling with the map and very small conflict compared to the whole map, the game would continue to play in real time, thus stealing my attention from that flank or home base or whatever. On top of that, I am considering that it is an FPS, so I could see just as much advantage to being able to manipulate drops from the "hologram" all the way up to seeing The Whole Map, and everywhere in between.
To be able to function as a good Commander in almost any enviroment, I see a need to be able to designate just how much of the action I see going on in the main screen.
Finally, the main basis besides trying to make the Commander feel more in control of their own controls while still being easy to use, I really would love to see more "switches" for the Commander to play with (Probably inspired by the fun I've had playing Zombie Master - HL2 mod) but with a downside that the "switches" are not usable when DI is present. I would love for the Kharaa to find a way to evolve to combat the Commander mano e' mano (spelling?) and I believe DI could be that evolution.
<b>vote <!--coloro:green--><span style="color:green"><!--/coloro-->yes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
Although there is still much to be debated on of course, the overall idea is a good one for immersion. I still think this idea should only be implemented with a command hierarchy as I outlined earlier to help streamline the commanders tasks so he doesn't become overwhelmed.
I will respectfully disagree. A Commander should not have to micro manage to immerse, they should have options, cause and effect ... action on the RTS level. I believe this is a huge misconception brought on by possibly the popularity of Star Craft competitive play, where the speed at which you micro manage counts for every thing. Unfortunately for myself, call me a noob if you like, such aspects of game play as micro management remove me from the game and place me in the role of thinking outside the game to etch speed out of it that doesn't exist in the interface. Once I start focusing on buttons, I stop focusing on the action of Marine vs Kharaa in a fight for their lives. As far as I am concerned, the NS1 Commander might as well be a bean counter on the other side of the galaxy, with little care for if his team wins or loses, because its their fault if they win or lose, he pressed the buttons and accounted for the res as best he could. Ugh, how dull.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Making commanding easier isn't necessarily a good thing either. The skill cap required to be a comm in NS1 keeps people coming back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, I feel I need to respectfully disagree. That "skill cap" often has people avoiding the Command Chair, which in effect breaks the game. Without a Commander, the marines don't advance and are no competition for the Kharaa, even at the most basic levels. A few seconds without a Commander can spell doom for the marines. Something so fundamentally game breaking is a very sorry state of affairs to be in.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS2, I think a newb at comming should be able to jump into a chair and get a feel for it, but against a decent alien team, should not be able to win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From my experience in NS1, even a noob Commander who is willing to listen to a experienced team of marines can win against the Kharaa. Often a "squad leader" takes control because while they don't want to Command, they know all about it, and pass out instructions to the noob Commander about how to navigate the interface and what to drop, somethings which the interface fails to convey to the new and inexperienced Commander. The fact of the matter is the Commander can not win without the marines pounding the deck and they can not win without the Commander - I wouldn't have it any other way.
If the interface in NS2 is intuitive and responsive enough, a new Commander should be able to beat the Kharaa team by playing, unlike NS1 where a it might fail simply for being unable to drop a structure or item that is buried in the interface.
I am sure Charlie and Max are already ahead of the game in this regards, they are studying Accessible Design and using LUA, something that was used to build such intuitive interfaces as players use in World of Warcraft.
Micromanagement should stay in the past with such games as Dune, Command & Conquer, War Craft, and Star Craft. Opening up options is the way to go.
Hack the map! Help your marines! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Commanding needs 2 elements: Strategy and Active current assistance (helping win the game on a personal level). And both should require skill.
Devising strategies and dynamically reacting to situations is a definite need of the comm, both of which need experience and understanding. The comm needs to be able to make choices and order his marines around.
This thread is mostly about active current assistance however - the direct commander interaction with the battlefield. Currently he does this mainly by supplying marines with meds, ammo and whatever else - the micromanagement does take a little bit of skill, good. Now this also has a high level of marine-commander interaction which i believe is very important, the commander helps by assisting the marines and is totally dependent on them. If you have the comm fighting his own battles (against DI or whatever) then he becomes more isolated from the rest of the team and whist there is still dependency it's not a joint fight - the marines depend on the comm to win his battle, and the comm depends on the marines to win their battle, separately.
Good points, and I hope I would have covered both in the original post and the "with pictures" post.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread is mostly about active current assistance however - the direct commander interaction with the battlefield. Currently he does this mainly by supplying marines with meds, ammo and whatever else - the micromanagement does take a little bit of skill, good. Now this also has a high level of marine-commander interaction which i believe is very important, the commander helps by assisting the marines and is totally dependent on them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally, the medical or catalyst packs I have an issue with simply because they can be "spammed" and the effect is instantaneous. If you spam ammo, it makes no difference on the out come of a conflict, other than to resupply towards a futures event. How many times has a player on the Kharaa side had a really frustrating experience by facing off against a marine who is getting "spammed". I don't see heal spray turning Kharaa invincible, they first need to seek cover around the corner.
If medical assistance could be rendered similar to the welding experience, IMHO, it benefits the team players rather than the rambos. A commander could still resupply their troops with medical supplies along with the ammo, so the aspect is not completely removed, it just moves it one level to where the team mate heals you. This is important to the "hacker" idea because there are places that a marine can go, they will need healing, but the Commander will be given trouble to helping that marine when the DI is in the way of the infrastructure. Thus, the medic cometh.
Also, this total dependency on each other should highlight the need for having a Commander be a task that needs to be easily accessible and an enjoyable experience for the player involved. Without a Commander, there simply is no game At The Moment. It is a "F4" situation in NS1. I came up with the idea because I would hope that NS2 can avoid this situation to a greater degree.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you have the comm fighting his own battles (against DI or whatever) then he becomes more isolated from the rest of the team and whist there is still dependency it's not a joint fight - the marines depend on the comm to win his battle, and the comm depends on the marines to win their battle, separately.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here is where it is possible you either didn't read my idea or read someone's misinterpretation because the idea is specifically put forth in such a way that the Commander and his marines are very much linked together. DI can not be "fought" by the Commander, the marines do it, and I suspect it would be with a flame thrower or some other incendiary device, like a grenade launcher or whatever. The Commander would be relying on the marines in this situation, then once it is cleared, connections are restored, "active current assistance" opens up fully again. The battles are not separate. If anything, I suggested the idea because the current NS1 commander feels personally separate from the action of his troops. The closest we come in NS1 currently to a Commander and a marine functioning on the level of teamwork I like to see is when they have set up the siege, but the observatory doesn't have the needed energy, so the marine "spots" for the Commander in place of the "ping". Instead, I propose that the experience in NS2 could be far more tandem team play, a much more visceral experience for both Commander and Marine.
Thank you for the well thought out post, I hope this clears up some more on the idea(s).
This is what I want in NS2, not a NS just with better graphics stuff that requires you to battle the enviroment as well as other players.
it still feels as though the DI fighting could sidetrack from the main goal too much. nevertheless, it's almost as if the marines fight the DI to improve the comm's support, but the comm's supporting ability (meds etc) is being majorly nerfed and aimed to fight the DI instead?