The RTS players manifesto

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  • tjosantjosan Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-05-16 Member: 16374Posts: 1,335
    edited June 2007
  • BacillusBacillus Members Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Posts: 2,774 Advanced user
    edited June 2007
    QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jun 5 2007, 06:45 PM) »

    Two things I would like to add:

    Counterintuitively, don't hide the obs. Or rather maximize the forward coverage of the obs area before trying to secret away in some corner. The obs is more useful to your marines if it gives them a clear view of the hive(or the halfway near marine start) then if you have it hidden in some corner to keep it "safe". Yes put it against the wall and yes hide it if you can, but forward position is more important.

    Place your tf as far back as defendably possible. I see good comms making the mistake of dropping the tf far too close to what they're seiging. I've noticed that many actually drop them where they should be dropping the turrets. Take the time to learn the good seige spots. And if you're on a map(on on the side of a hive that you don't usually siege from) where you don't know the "good spot", take a couple seconds to eyeball a good spot.

    One example: Seiging furnace from the lava room on Origin. You don't have to put the tf in the lava room to seige the hive. If you put it against the wall and in line with the hive in the room BEFORE the lava room(which is the best place to put the pg) you can put three seiges at the edge of the tfs' range that can hit the hive.


    Woo, lets create some discussion here.

    Obs too much forward makes it too easy target for every lifeform. For example it may get easy for fades and onoses to hit the obs without risking themselves to the usual marinestart routine. Same goes for skulks if you don't have a clear aim at the obs biter. Obs going down is a huge big risk and most often forces you to play more passive for the next half a minute even if your marines were in defensive positions already.

    Tf positioning depends much on your pg placement and most often doesn't matter all that much. However, I'd rather have room for 4th siege or so since sometimes sieges just tend to go on and on because there are 2 gorges healing the stuff. At that point the extra siege really pays off since you can still win the siege and get back to the game although you've just wasted a truckload of your res on sieges, meds and extra obs instead of upgrading.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Members Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Posts: 7,019
    edited June 2007
    It's a REALLY bad habit to not jump for that 4th seige when the gorges pile under the hive. If aliens can delay that hive until it's up then those 3 sieges probably aren't going to be enough. I ALWAYS drop 4 sieges unless I know I can get marines on the hive to help do damage/kill the gorges. If your marines aren't good enough to pressure, drop 4 sieges, maby even drop 5 sieges. You're going to recycle them all when you're done anyways. If you can get that hive down before the second upgrade chambers are up, or better yet, before it even drops, then you've set yourself forward ALOT more then 6 res would.

    [edit] the faster you get the hive down, the faster you can go on to do something else, and the less threatening the alien team can be. The longer your siege takes the more guarenteed you are to lose it as aliens get more and more organized in finding your weak points, as well as getting lifeforms up.
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  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Members, Constellation Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Posts: 4,022 Fully active user
    Okay the furnace once was an extreme example and I only dropped 3 sieges it is likely I could have fit a fourth. I think the point remains valid as I see a lot of bad tf placement. Yes the pg is more important but either one can cost you a seige.

    As for the forward obs I would like to see them chewing on the obs instead of the tf, pg, or even seiges. I'm not saying put it in the middle of the hive, you need to follow the same structure building rules as always. Simply move it forward of the tf, maybe even the sieges if bilebomb isn't up yet.
    QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 28 2007, 09:21 PM) »
    It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!


    - NS in game name - tilde - My Steam Id Page - .
  • KainTSAKainTSA Members, Constellation Join Date: 2005-05-30 Member: 52831Posts: 315
    I think he believed you were talking about a forward obs in marine start, not at a seige location.

    On the other topic: you do have to be careful when using cool seige spots that maximize your distance because more often then not you can only get 3 cannons into them. I start with 3 seiges and then move a few marines up to determine if they can aid the seige by shooting the hive down. If they get pwnd I fall back and drop 2 more seiges.
    New forum member, old player
  • MrBenMrBen ns_eclipse, ns_veil caretaker Members Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8575Posts: 1,119
    Back to my point, learn to position your marines and you won't have to worry about anything happening in your base capable of causing serious unrecoverable damage.

    As for your turret factory position, it should be hidden, preferably out of line of sight of the sieges themselves but not at the expense of how many sieges can be dropped. As for position you're sieges, against the wall obviously makes the most sense but I prefer to form a wall with them. In tough 2 hive sieges where you're vulnerable if you push too far, I use the wall as a line across the map that the marines do not cross, they just hold the sieges which is far easier than pushing up to get line of sight, and I scan till the hive dies.
    nL-Benjamin - Periodic map contributor, forum troll, retired arrogant clanner and commanding guru.

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  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Members Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Posts: 7,019
    QUOTE(MrBen @ Jun 7 2007, 04:50 PM) »

    Back to my point, learn to position your marines and you won't have to worry about anything happening in your base capable of causing serious unrecoverable damage.

    As for your turret factory position, it should be hidden, preferably out of line of sight of the sieges themselves but not at the expense of how many sieges can be dropped. As for position you're sieges, against the wall obviously makes the most sense but I prefer to form a wall with them. In tough 2 hive sieges where you're vulnerable if you push too far, I use the wall as a line across the map that the marines do not cross, they just hold the sieges which is far easier than pushing up to get line of sight, and I scan till the hive dies.

    The thing about this is... you need the marines to push up past the sieges so that skulks can't camp behind or circle strafe them. Also, if marines stand on the sieges in most NS maps that makes a pretty effective fade block wall. You should be very careful about dropping seiges somewhere where they will impede the marines LoS on their targets.
    O_O image
  • MrBenMrBen ns_eclipse, ns_veil caretaker Members Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8575Posts: 1,119
    Sieges don't block you're line of sight at all and it's not exactly an inpassable wall, it is however another obstacle for fades that will affect how effective they can be. Should any skulk get from the doorway to the sieges then the marines can easily deal with them before they can deal any sort of real damage. I mostly just use it as a method to prevent my marines moving forward into more vulnerable positions. "Stay behind the sieges I'll ping" has strict guidelines unlike "protect the sieges" and your marines end up all over the place and your heavy weapons get picked off one at a time as a result. Then marines run back to get the guns etc etc and it all gets out of hand. Stay behind the sieges, I'll drop as many as it takes, it's easier to kill fades and I'll ping to the hive dies, then go frag everything.
    nL-Benjamin - Periodic map contributor, forum troll, retired arrogant clanner and commanding guru.

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  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Members, Constellation Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Posts: 2,462
    Right now I'm torn. Let's say I've dropped an arms lab, and it goes up around the one minute mark. Maybe I'ev *just* clicked on armor1 upgrade. At that point one of my marines report that the aliens are using sensory. Should I prioritize an obs or two at that point, or definitely at least push for armor1 first?
    Read my idea on armor!
    http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....showtopic=90736

    QUOTE (Ambrosek @ Mar 23 2005, 07:53 PM)
    You Can Never Win In Clan Match Which is SC start
  • KainTSAKainTSA Members, Constellation Join Date: 2005-05-30 Member: 52831Posts: 315
    If you already dropped a lab and cancel the research you've wasted that res. Keep pushing to A1, especially because you never know when focus will show up.
    New forum member, old player
  • tjosantjosan Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-05-16 Member: 16374Posts: 1,335
    a1 is ESPECIALLY important versus sensory.
  • KainTSAKainTSA Members, Constellation Join Date: 2005-05-30 Member: 52831Posts: 315
    Yeah and not just to prevent focus fade rapage. With cloaking, one para and 2 bites is SO easy to get off.
    New forum member, old player
  • SariselSarisel .::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::. Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18557Posts: 2,192
    Welders are important versus sensory - that and marines smart enough to use them. The latter is usually a greater problem if you overcome the lack of the former.
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Members Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Posts: 7,019
    Not having armor 1 is not a postive against sensory. Keep A1 churning and just get those obs up ASAP. Prioritize obs against shotguns, weapons upgrades, lockdowns, or any other non RT expense, but you need A1 to counter sensory.

    Also, motion tracking in the early game is not the counter to sensory. Motion tracking is WAY more res then you can afford if you need 2-3 field obs, and motion tracking also prevents you from scanning with one obs for 3 full minutes, which is the difference between useful cloaked skulks and useless cloaked skulks. I'm not saying don't get motion tracking against SC first, just don't rush it as if it will somehow save you the game. A commanders ability to scan regularly in the first 5 minutes will make a difference against cloaking WAY more then motion tracking at 5 mintues in will. Motion tracking only screws up defensive skulks that have been moving recently, it hardly puts a dent in an alien team holding the second hive location from a group of marines pushing in. It's far less useful then a ping.
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  • tjosantjosan Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-05-16 Member: 16374Posts: 1,335
    Unless you have a coordinated team I'd advise against field obs unless you have a pg nearby, or are rushing or sieging a hive. Just put up two obs in base and keep pinging with one and tech pgs with the other.
  • TheTerminator97TheTerminator97 Members Join Date: 2007-06-19 Member: 61310Posts: 1
    Another thing that is absolutely critical, is a decoy armory, yes drop your armory in that conventional spot. NO THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE ONE YOU UPGRADE. Put one next to the com chair and upgrade that, or in a similar out of the way place.

    Decoy armories in pubs can save you the game. When that skulk rush comes in and takes down your armory, whoops guys u got the rong one lol.
  • IconoclastIconoclast Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-06-23 Member: 29481Posts: 120 Advanced user
    I don't see mines used enough on pubs (of any size). Drop more mines.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    hotkeying your armory can save the game
    NS2
    Old/resigned Dutch Translation Lead. Give feedback about the translation, or help improve by clicking: Current NS2 Dutch translation project. Dutch players apply!
    NS2 Server Maintenance Manual
    WorkshopBackup Manual (WSB Server)
    Ingame: DCDarkling
    'DCDs Steam Workshop', for your NS2 X-Hairs and Viewmodel Weapon mods
    Viewmodels are the ones you hold in your hand, not the one shown in the world!

    Old NS2 Stuff:
    Marine Commander Guide NS2
    Alien Commander Guide NS2
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    Old NS1 stuff:
    'Infested Pack v0.6' for models & props
    Darklings Guide to Commanding Version 1.001
  • That_Annoying_KidThat_Annoying_Kid Sire of Titles Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-03-01 Member: 14175Posts: 5,583 Advanced user
    QUOTE(TheTerminator97 @ Jun 19 2007, 06:20 PM) »

    Another thing that is absolutely critical, is a decoy armory, yes drop your armory in that conventional spot. NO THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE ONE YOU UPGRADE. Put one next to the com chair and upgrade that, or in a similar out of the way place.

    Decoy armories in pubs can save you the game. When that skulk rush comes in and takes down your armory, whoops guys u got the rong one lol.


    I won't bother with the armoury unless it's upgrading, and I give ms a thorough eying first, so I would para and attack the real one...
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    I prefer a pack of mines above another armory.. I am not, or ever, gona promote armory humping by making another one while any player with brains needs but a glance to single out the upgraded one.
    NS2
    Old/resigned Dutch Translation Lead. Give feedback about the translation, or help improve by clicking: Current NS2 Dutch translation project. Dutch players apply!
    NS2 Server Maintenance Manual
    WorkshopBackup Manual (WSB Server)
    Ingame: DCDarkling
    'DCDs Steam Workshop', for your NS2 X-Hairs and Viewmodel Weapon mods
    Viewmodels are the ones you hold in your hand, not the one shown in the world!

    Old NS2 Stuff:
    Marine Commander Guide NS2
    Alien Commander Guide NS2
    NS2 Mentor Program
    Old NS1 stuff:
    'Infested Pack v0.6' for models & props
    Darklings Guide to Commanding Version 1.001
  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Posts: 3,175
    If memory serves. Seiges do 400 damage per hit and fire once every four seconds, average to 100 damage/sec. What does that equate to in gorges?
    Coined the qualitative attribute entropy in reference to game maps.
    Do not eat the dark energy balls, please.
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  • tjosantjosan Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-05-16 Member: 16374Posts: 1,335
    As a general guideline, two gorges seem to be able to draw out a siege with 3 sieges more or less indefinately.
  • TOmekkiTOmekki Members Join Date: 2003-11-25 Member: 23524Posts: 2,254
    man feels like its been forever since they changed sieges so that they dont hurt players no more
    <DOOManiac> my main thing about clans is they never seem to actually have fun when playing
    <DOOManiac> even if they're winning they are so caught up in the seriousness of the situation they don't have fun. its like work. where's the fun in that?

    last.fm
  • 1-800-CAL-SKILL1-800-CAL-SKILL Members Join Date: 2007-06-21 Member: 61326Posts: 20
    edited June 2007
    A piece of advice to all commanders:

    Learn to medpack within half a second. Bind H to center on med request (I give you .3secs to respond to call, your reaction time + moving your finger), go for E - S (.01secs there) - AIM TO THE DIRECT CENTER OF YOUR SCREEN AND COMPENSATE FOR MARINE MOVEMENT (you can't move far in .3secs) - CLICK (.05secs there). There is NO excuse to take more than 2 seconds at any time to med a marine unless you are medspamming a more important location.

    The only thing that can stop you is a marine jumping at the wrong time, that's the element of luck.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Members, Constellation Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Posts: 2,462
    Which impulses are the "jump-to-<request>" commands? We need those to jump to those med requests.
    Read my idea on armor!
    http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....showtopic=90736

    QUOTE (Ambrosek @ Mar 23 2005, 07:53 PM)
    You Can Never Win In Clan Match Which is SC start
  • Bigbio2002Bigbio2002 Members Join Date: 2007-02-07 Member: 59903Posts: 30
    QUOTE(TheTerminator97 @ Jun 20 2007, 01:20 AM) »

    Another thing that is absolutely critical, is a decoy armory, yes drop your armory in that conventional spot. NO THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE ONE YOU UPGRADE. Put one next to the com chair and upgrade that, or in a similar out of the way place.

    Decoy armories in pubs can save you the game. When that skulk rush comes in and takes down your armory, whoops guys u got the rong one lol.


    I use that strategy sometimes too, but there's a subtle model difference between a regular armory and an AA that pro players can differentiate between. They can just look around, figure out which one is the real one and kill it. This works best on the map with sewer as a hive (I forget the map name). Just pop your decoy armory in the upper right corner of your base, next to the RT tunnel, then drop the real armory right behind the wall above the fake armory. It works like a charm smile-fix.gif

    You could also drop other structures there too, but I wouldn't advise that, as the aliens would get wise too quickly. It's easier to hide a lone armory back there than it is to hide an armory, an obs, an arms lab, and a proto.
    redempting egg FTW
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Members, Constellation Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Posts: 4,022 Fully active user
    QUOTE
    A piece of advice to all commanders:

    Learn to medpack within half a second. Bind H to center on med request (I give you .3secs to respond to call, your reaction time + moving your finger), go for E - S (.01secs there) - AIM TO THE DIRECT CENTER OF YOUR SCREEN AND COMPENSATE FOR MARINE MOVEMENT (you can't move far in .3secs) - CLICK (.05secs there). There is NO excuse to take more than 2 seconds at any time to med a marine unless you are medspamming a more important location.

    The only thing that can stop you is a marine jumping at the wrong time, that's the element of luck.


    Sure, as long as you're in a place I want you to be. If I'm sieging a hive/fortifying a position and you're somewhere else don't expect a medpack quickly. You may be the best player on the team but if you're not where I need you you might as well be dead anyway.
    QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 28 2007, 09:21 PM) »
    It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!


    - NS in game name - tilde - My Steam Id Page - .
  • IconoclastIconoclast Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-06-23 Member: 29481Posts: 120 Advanced user
  • ubermenschubermensch Banned Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11692Posts: 493
    edited July 2007
    to the OP: http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&...amp;q=then+than

    QUOTE(KainTSA @ May 24 2007, 09:38 AM) »
    The bottom line is:

    Work with the team you have, not the team you want to have


    lol Rumsfeld
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  • KoniaXKoniaX Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-02-16 Member: 13641Posts: 160
    I've never been a fan of the corner armory, I always like it to be in the middle rather than against a wall... but maybe thats why I'm just a foor soldier biggrin-fix.gif
    I am a Constellation member, so this should be where the little icon is, but I suck with computers, so assume that it is here.

    *Little Blue Icon*
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