The RTS players manifesto

SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members Posts: 7,019
things you should know about comming if you don't comm...
I've seen alot of players doing some really dumb crap in NS recently, and it basically comes down to a misunderstanding of the basics of what is going on in the command chair. So here's some very basic rules to follow when either jumping into the chair when you normally don't, or dealing with a comm not doing something you'd like him to on time/doing something you think is stupid. Here is some basic rules for NS that are not disputable, learn them well.

Comming rules:
1. Structures with mass go against walls, structures people spawn on go out in the open, a reasonable distance away from structures with mass. Basically, your arms lab, your armory, your obs, your tfac, all these things have hitboxes skulks can hide behind, therefore put them places where they can't be hidden behind easily. You don't want skulks biting spawning marines and pushing them into a wall, so don't put PG's or IP's against walls like structures with mass should always be. Turrets are middle ground, they need to be out in the open where they can get a good line of sight on any targets. Sieges are not, they shoot through walls, so put then against walls as much as possible.

2. Don't drop stuff you don't need. You don't need to lock down the far hive with 10 turrets. You don't need 3 IPs 10 seconds into the game. You don't need an armslab and an obs before you have 1 RT up. You don't need a tfac in double 90% of the time. You don't have unlimited res in NS, don't spend it until it's needed on something, and if you don't know if it's needed on something, then it's always needed up upgrades.

3. Don't save res. Ever. It's always better to have those shotguns in the field where they are getting RFK then it is to have them sitting as a little number 100 at the top of your screen. You shouldn't be able to afford them between upgrades and dropping RT's/seiges anyways. If you wait to spend the res later you won't have the foothold you would have gotten from spending it earlier, and it won't be as useful when you finally DO have it, even if that means you finally got enough for a full heavy rush. If the shotguns were out those 3 marines would have gotten up that phasegate outside of hive and made the march easier.

4. Play aggressive. The comm needs RT's the comm needs hives locked down, the comm needs RFK. The comm does not need small groups of marines separated from the main offensive force sitting in places with no combat for 5 minutes. If you're wasting time somewhere you are wasting the comm's res.


Instant clue ins of a bad comm:

1. Armory in the middle of base, structures not against walls. This is the instant one. Eject this guy immediately, he doesn't know what he is doing and you will lose the game. Every tutorial ever has this listed, he should have commed against bots first.

2. Tfac in MS/double res, with the exception of quick electrification strats, WHICH MUST BE ANNOUNCED SO MARINES KNOW THEY NEED TO BE OFFENSIVE WITH SECURING NODES, you never need a TF anywhere but a hive location, or a siege.

3. Upgrade timing. Grenades: within 2 minutes of start, A1: within 3 minutes of start, Phase: within 4 minutes of start, W1: within 5 minutes of start, W2: within 8 minutes of start. In ideal situations, a good comm will have 3/3 upgrades and motion tracking within 15 minutes of start. In bad situations they should be able to manage 20 minutes.

4. Response times: med ammo and order requests should be acknowledged within 30 seconds, minimum. Never ignored without an explanation (especially for meds/ammo)... Comms are busy, give a verbal announcement or have a text bind set up, that being said, don't wait forever.

Upgrade order:

Grenades/A1/W1/W2/W3/A2/A3

phase and motion tracking will fit in simultaneously to these somewhere. MT should start before AA, phase should start before W1. AA largely depends on the success or failure of holding the second hive down and the amount of res inflow managed.

Pub comming is not competitive comming:

Nothing against competitive comms, but they have some bad habits when it comes to pubs.

A: your marines are not competent, don't assume they know where crap is, don't even assume they know they need to be going out and getting res, yell, and use waypoints.

B: Your marines are not competent. You need your good marines attacking and taking ground because your bad marines are going to die if they try. Effectively this means you don't have a back line defense force most of the game, don't be afraid to use static defenses.

C: Your marines are not competent, they likely won't all get shotguns and be under the hive ready to go within 10 seconds of you getting the ninja PG up... Most likely some will shoot the hive while the PG is trying to be built. Lockdowns are worth their weight in gold. Sieges are safer then shotgun rushes. Don't be afraid to yell, use waypoints, and use beacons.

D: The number of marines you have in the field is not 5. If you have more then 5 marines upgrades pay off in investment alot faster then guns and defenses do. If you have less then 5 marines guns and static defenses pay off in investment alot faster then upgrades do.

Rules for marines:
- Don't rush the first hive in big groups, in fact just don't rush it. That's not ninjaing, and even if you're good you alone won't be able to establish a spawncamp. The bad players will die in the process, so you will be alone.

- No I won't drop you a PG in 3 minutes from start. Go find another RT or wait until I decide what I want to do with you

- mines go on the floor, preferably close to structures aliens will try to bite down, or IPs.

- I'm not dropping you a shotgun right now. And if I am, I'm looking at your score first.

- Yes you can have a welder, they only cost 5, please use it on other marines though.

- If the second hive is up, I'm not dropping you mines.

- If your waypoint seems to be freaking the hell out, it's probably that I want to draw your attention to something.

- If I beacon you and there is nothing in MS, phase. If I yell phase, phase. You don't need ammo when I'm telling you to do something else, infact, if you fill up your gun to 250 ammo you don't need ammo anyways, because you're not good enough to get that many kills.

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Comments

  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation Posts: 3,175
    I agree in theory (and there is a HUGE difference between theory and reality) with most of that and thank you for posting that, but I have a STRONG objection against putting the armory up against the wall.

    NO NO NO!

    You put it smack dab in the middle of your base with the phasegate. Why? It's easy to cover in a hurry and when you marines spawn all they have to do is aim to cover it. And also, I've seen games when the comm put the Armory in a corner and fades, skulks, etc. just came rushing into base to RAPE the marines who had their backs turned because they were getting health/ammo from the armory. A good comm will be quick to react to a base rush. A good team shouldn't have to rely on the comm.

    Horrrible, horrible suggestion there. Sorry but just had to say that.


    Also, while pointing out what are the ideal upgrades and signals of a comm who doesn't know what's going on isn't bad, saying "Eject this guy immediately, he doesn't know what he is doing and you will lose the game." Makes you just an arsehole. Wow, remember what I was talking about helping people learn to play NS and the problem this community has with jerks who don't bother teaching and would rather just be ######s to the newbies? Yeah, you just became an archetype of that with that comment Swiftspear, whether intentional or not.
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  • puzlpuzl The Old Firm Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation Posts: 4,112 mod
    QUOTE

    1. Armory in the middle of base, structures not against walls. This is the instant one. Eject this guy immediately, he doesn't know what he is doing and you will lose the game. Every tutorial ever has this listed, he should have commed against bots first.


    Can't disagree more. This guy doesn't need to be ejected, he needs to be thought about better solutions to the problems he thinks he is solving well. If you eject all new comms, then you won't have a good supply of new comms to replace the ones that move onto other games. It is very short sighted to eject a guy simple because you run the risk of losing.
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  • TheAdjTheAdj He demanded a cool forum title of some type. Join Date: 2004-05-03 Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 961 Fully active user
    x5, you're wrong. Swift, you're right. *clap clap* Excellent writeup.
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  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation Posts: 3,175
    QUOTE(TheAdj @ May 24 2007, 09:08 AM) »
    x5, you're wrong. Swift, you're right. *clap clap* Excellent writeup.


    -_-

    Care to explain? I didn't say his write up was a bad thing at all. I said there was a point I disagreed with strongly. And yes I have seen fades maul marines with a corner pocket AA. And competitive games? I usually see those armories not in a corner or up against a wall. If we are speaking competitive NS, it usually goes so fast that if the aliens are rampaging the base, then the marines have almost always already lost awhile ago.
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  • tjosantjosan Join Date: 2003-05-16 Member: 16374Members, Constellation Posts: 1,335
    Well actually we're talking about a single skulk, perhaps two, deciding to take down the upgrading armory/AA, and the ability for the comm and/or a spawning marine to deal with it without the skulk circle strafing around the armory or being right ontop of them as they spawn.
  • KainTSAKainTSA Join Date: 2005-05-30 Member: 52831Members, Constellation Posts: 315
    I prefer the corner armory, but on some marine starts the middle is really the only good spot.

    As for competitive versus pub comming, very good points. The bottom line is:

    Work with the team you have, not the team you want to have
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  • puzlpuzl The Old Firm Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation Posts: 4,112 mod
    yeah, I do agree with the structures against the wall. MS should be designed to maximise all lines of sight, introducing cover in your base is not a good idea. One tip you left out swift was about entering the CC facing your most likely target. You exit the CC in the same position you enter it, so the general advice is to pick a spot with good LOS to the Armoury and then press e.

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  • TheAdjTheAdj He demanded a cool forum title of some type. Join Date: 2004-05-03 Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 961 Fully active user
    QUOTE(the_x5 @ May 24 2007, 09:21 AM) »

    -_-

    Care to explain? I didn't say his write up was a bad thing at all. I said there was a point I disagreed with strongly. And yes I have seen fades maul marines with a corner pocket AA. And competitive games? I usually see those armories not in a corner or up against a wall. If we are speaking competitive NS, it usually goes so fast that if the aliens are rampaging the base, then the marines have almost always already lost awhile ago.



    QUOTE(tjosan @ May 24 2007, 09:32 AM) »

    Well actually we're talking about a single skulk, perhaps two, deciding to take down the upgrading armory/AA, and the ability for the comm and/or a spawning marine to deal with it without the skulk circle strafing around the armory or being right ontop of them as they spawn.


    tjo wins the door prize. The problem isn't being killed by aliens coming in (although this factors in, a well placed obs will alert anyone paying attention to inbound company), the main problem is a skulk biting on the AA running in circles around it and being a pain in the ###### to kill. If the armory is against a wall, it's easier to kill a skulk. I place my armory such that I can get out and pistol whip a skulk down before it recognizes I'm even out of the chair, saves me from asking for people to come back. The armory should not really be in a corner per se, but just one side of it agianst a wall so that aliens can't run around it while avoiding fire. Any non-marine used structure (AA, Proto, Obs) can go in a corner without problem.
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  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    I aint even gona comment on all the how it should be's, since most ppl here probably know I posted a 'D.C. Darklings Guide to Commanding' once. tounge.gif

    My opinions are in there backed up as much as I found needed to.


    However on the eject and not let newbies learn thing.. I agree to not eject if they are willing to learn.
    I remember a small match which grew large where the comm was new. When we were small we informed the other team (who let us be) and that match ended with 2 8 man teams in MS showing that comm exactly how the game worked. (note 6 man on both team were not even there when we agreed to teach him).

    For example, wanted to show sieges? they'd drop them. Noone raped the base (they could, we lost eons ago hehe) but they all teached.

    Why not? If a newbie comm wants to learn.
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  • sherpasherpa stopcommandermode Join Date: 2006-11-04 Member: 58338Members Posts: 1,043
    >16 players breaks ns. all you need is a1, w1 and pg tech and you can mantrain hives with LMGs.

    and yes, pub commanding is not competitive commanding. pub commanding is easymode commanding as you don't have to worry about a 2nd hive until well after 5 mins, though marines won't listen to you.

    rush mt, or get to level 3 on the AL asap in a 9v9+ game = marines shouldn't lose. you don't even need to drop sgs/hmgs. not with 9 aliens sharing 2/3 RTs.

    /baited
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  • SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Banned Posts: 938
    QUOTE(puzl @ May 24 2007, 08:50 AM) »
    One tip you left out swift was about entering the CC facing your most likely target. You exit the CC in the same position you enter it, so the general advice is to pick a spot with good LOS to the Armoury and then press e.


    It's actually more effective to be facing the obs when you get out the CC - it has significantly less health than the armory and is somewhat more important to countering mass baserushes which are more likely to lose you the game than losing a half-upgraded AA.
    Generally in that situation you will start a beacon, jump out the cc, and start shooting the weakest thing attacking the obs (skulk or lerk normally). If there is a couple of skulks on the AA (which you put against a wall) you can most of the time deal wtih them by yourself if you can aim anywhere near well, and it doesn't take long to look from the obs to the AA.
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  • KainTSAKainTSA Join Date: 2005-05-30 Member: 52831Members, Constellation Posts: 315
    QUOTE(sherpa @ May 24 2007, 01:19 PM) »

    rush mt, or get to level 3 on the AL asap in a 9v9+ game = marines shouldn't lose. you don't even need to drop sgs/hmgs. not with 9 aliens sharing 2/3 RTs.


    Aliens do get one major advantage in larger games: 25 res for each additional player. That means with 9 v 9, aliens start with a total of 75 res more than in a competitive match. That means basically they get 3 free chambers and a free lerk (accounting for the cost to go gorge). This means there is more money to go around in dropping extra RTs, and an extra lerk to scout/defend those RTs. Also means more than one person can save for fade and still have a quick hive. RFK helps balance out the lower res aliens could be getting (assuming their team didn't use their free res to drop extra RTs).

    I play on IAM's server a lot and they usually have 9-12 per team. Aliens rarely start with less than 4 RTs and its not that hard to hold them when you have so many skulks running around.
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  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    Actually I always try to jump in the comm chair with everything in view, aswell as placed against walls and not for covering each other
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  • TheAdjTheAdj He demanded a cool forum title of some type. Join Date: 2004-05-03 Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 961 Fully active user
    QUOTE(KainTSA @ May 24 2007, 01:25 PM) »

    Aliens do get one major advantage in larger games: 25 res for each additional player. That means with 9 v 9, aliens start with a total of 75 res more than in a competitive match. That means basically they get 3 free chambers and a free lerk (accounting for the cost to go gorge). This means there is more money to go around in dropping extra RTs, and an extra lerk to scout/defend those RTs. Also means more than one person can save for fade and still have a quick hive. RFK helps balance out the lower res aliens could be getting (assuming their team didn't use their free res to drop extra RTs).

    I play on IAM's server a lot and they usually have 9-12 per team. Aliens rarely start with less than 4 RTs and its not that hard to hold them when you have so many skulks running around.


    On large servers, its entirely possible to just bumrush down alien structures. Even 7 marines can take down a node with 2 LMG clips each, add in one shotgun and it'll drop hella fast. When I fortify myself enough to comm on servers like BAD or G4B2S, I usually just rush down every alien RT once I hit about 4-6 RTs (depends on the map). A well placed phase and a few beacons and you can wipe out alien res dominance early game. It's even possible to kill the hive RT and all their chambers if you do it right. Completely newb teams work best for this, semi-experienced players worse (they "think" they know what they're doing, this is far more dangerous than being completely inexperienced or a vet), and obviously vets are extremely helpful for catching skulks that try to kill folks in the middle of it.
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  • Rapier7Rapier7 Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members Posts: 1,216 Fully active user
    QUOTE(KainTSA @ May 24 2007, 09:38 AM) »

    I prefer the corner armory, but on some marine starts the middle is really the only good spot.

    As for competitive versus pub comming, very good points. The bottom line is:

    Work with the team you have, not the team you want to have


    Yet Rumsfeld is criticized when offers that same piece of advice. Funny isn't it?
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  • tjosantjosan Join Date: 2003-05-16 Member: 16374Members, Constellation Posts: 1,335
    QUOTE(Rapier7 @ May 24 2007, 05:49 PM) »

    Yet Rumsfeld is criticized when offers that same piece of advice. Funny isn't it?


    Wow, you really are this ignorant, aren't you?
  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Members, Constellation Posts: 1,618
    QUOTE(Rapier7 @ May 24 2007, 05:49 PM) »

    Yet Rumsfeld is criticized when offers that same piece of advice. Funny isn't it?


    Interesting comment, but in the completely wrong forum. If we're gonna have flames and arguments in the NS-topic forums, lets at least make sure they're on NS topics.
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  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members Posts: 7,019
    edited May 2007
    QUOTE(the_x5 @ May 24 2007, 08:21 AM) »

    -_-

    Care to explain? I didn't say his write up was a bad thing at all. I said there was a point I disagreed with strongly. And yes I have seen fades maul marines with a corner pocket AA. And competitive games? I usually see those armories not in a corner or up against a wall. If we are speaking competitive NS, it usually goes so fast that if the aliens are rampaging the base, then the marines have almost always already lost awhile ago.

    I'll give you the rational.

    A: The armory is the most valuable structure in the game. If you lose it while it's upgrading you've lost 45 res, you've lost the ability to drop heavy weapons for 3 minutes, you've delayed your advance to prototech for 3 minutes, and for whatever short period it's down marines can't get ammo. If the armory is in the open it can be circle strafed by skulks, and therefore the comm can't protect it with chairjumping, the skulk will just hide behind the armory and wait till the comm is out of ammo. I've done this as a skulk a million times when the marines are busy seiging down the second hive. It saves the aliens the game, just over a simple placement error on the comm's part.

    B: You don't want to encourage marines to hump the armory, don't give them more access to it then they need. There is something wrong with your team if more then 3 marines are trying to hump the armory at the same time.

    I agree with you the armory needs to be accessible, but accessibility is the second priority after defendability. It needs to be both.

    The armory can't allow aliens to hide behind it, it's the biggest structure in the marine base, and therefore if aliens are hiding behind it they are the most safe from fire as opposed to anywhere else in MS.


    [edit] puzl: I was going to mention the direction of facing thing... but my experience from pub comming is that 90% of the time I'm in a race to the chair with some guy who wants to relocate or drop Tfacs in MS... So I don't usually have time to do it unless I chair jump mid game or something.


    [edit2] As for the "eject this guy" comments... I'm assuming you're playing on a normal server where the team acctually wants to win. This isn't friendly marshmallow land here where every player gets and equal piece of the pie, this is NS, bad comms get ejected because they are bad. This is the way things work. There are ways of learning to comm without jumping into the chair and ruining pub games, those ways should be pursued. Putting structures against walls is quite literally in every NS comming tutorial ever, you should know it if you want to comm because you've done the research. There are lots of servers that allow you to comm against bots as well, that's how I started learning comming in NS. Being poor at managing your build trees or dropping meds/ammo promptly I can understand from new comms, that's something that takes time and practice to get right, and can't be simulated out of a real game properly. That being said, you shouldn't be jumping in the chair and expecting people to be tolerant if you haven't done any research about comming, and if you had done any research, even if you had been mildly observant of what other good comms were doing, you would know that structures go against walls. In my opinion having to wait 30 seconds for a medpack is intolerable, but I said that in my tutorial because I know that medding properly is something that has to be learned by experience, it can't be taught effectively by comming bots.
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  • UnderwhelmedUnderwhelmed DemoDetective #?! Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58026Members, Constellation Posts: 756 Advanced user
    QUOTE
    phase and motion tracking will fit in simultaneously to these somewhere. MT should start before AA, phase should start before W1. AA largely depends on the success or failure of holding the second hive down and the amount of res inflow managed.

    Disagree. If the second hive is imminent, you're going to be putting all your res towards getting prototech and equipping your marines enough to defend the res needed for that. I would much rather have marines with HMGs than MT, not to mention AA is a prerequisite for proto. PGs aren't really essential until you're pushing that second hive and will need to continually reinforce a position.
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  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members Posts: 7,019
    QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ May 24 2007, 07:44 PM) »

    Disagree. If the second hive is imminent, you're going to be putting all your res towards getting prototech and equipping your marines enough to defend the res needed for that. I would much rather have marines with HMGs than MT, not to mention AA is a prerequisite for proto. PGs aren't really essential until you're pushing that second hive and will need to continually reinforce a position.

    Ya, it can wait longer if you have the second hive locked down, upgrades are more important, if the second hive isn't locked down you need the equipment to compete with the alien team immediately.
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  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Members, Constellation Posts: 1,618
    QUOTE(Swiftspear @ May 24 2007, 07:39 PM) »

    [edit2] As for the "eject this guy" comments... [snip] That being said, you shouldn't be jumping in the chair and expecting people to be tolerant if you haven't done any research about comming, and if you had done any research, even if you had been mildly observant of what other good comms were doing, you would know that structures go against walls. In my opinion having to wait 30 seconds for a medpack is intolerable, but I said that in my tutorial because I know that medding properly is something that has to be learned by experience, it can't be taught effectively by comming bots.


    While I agree with you on building placement, comming against bots doesn't exactly teach you that either. Its really not something thats likely to occur to the average player until someone tells him to do it, which may happen quickly or may not depending on the overall quality of the server he is on. On some low-quality servers, "bad" building placement may be the norm rather than the exception. So I'd still go for telling the comm how to do better next time rather than instantly ejecting him.
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  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members Posts: 7,019
    edited May 2007
    Comming against bots won't show you how to drop structures in the right placement, it will familiarize you with the basics of the commanding interface and build trees. Reading virtually any comming tutorial, talking to any other commander, observing what other commanders do with structures, will tell you that you need to drop structures against walls.

    New comms shouldn't just jump in, they should do a bit of research first. I'm not going to bend on that. I did research first when I started comming.

    This doesn't mean spend 5 hours studying tutorials until you're godly on comming theory, every comm is going to take time to develop thier builds for different maps and what not, learn upgrade orders by trial and error, and a bit of players yelling at them, and there are still things you can do wrong WITH dropping structures against walls, but being lazy about that one basic element is an instant clue in for me that that commander is not one I want in the chair. If you don't know the most utterly simple basics of the job you shouldn't do it yet.
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  • TheAdjTheAdj He demanded a cool forum title of some type. Join Date: 2004-05-03 Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 961 Fully active user
    QUOTE(Cxwf @ May 24 2007, 11:05 PM) »

    While I agree with you on building placement, comming against bots doesn't exactly teach you that either. Its really not something thats likely to occur to the average player until someone tells him to do it, which may happen quickly or may not depending on the overall quality of the server he is on. On some low-quality servers, "bad" building placement may be the norm rather than the exception. So I'd still go for telling the comm how to do better next time rather than instantly ejecting him.


    I think just running a localserver for a while is enough to get the feel for how the interface feels, you won't really experience the full blast of commanding until you have actual people yelling at you because your armslab isn't moving, you aren't medding fast enough, etc. That's when you really start to learn a lot. I personally learned from watching demos of other competitive commanders and from comming pugs how to command, it was definitely one of my better gaming experiences looking back on it, a lot of fun.

    Instead of "some low-quality servers," I'd say on pretty much every server poor commanding in general is prevalent. You get people saying "Player X is the best commander I've ever seen" and the guy can't get armor one before 10 minutes because he dropped 30 turrets in the hives and elec'd every node on the map before even dropping an armslab. Every once in a while you find someone willing to listen if you say "stop dropping turrets and upgrade" but it's rare. The ones that do become great commanders.
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  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Members, Constellation Posts: 1,618
    QUOTE(TheAdj)
    Instead of "some low-quality servers," I'd say on pretty much every server poor commanding in general is prevalent.


    Well, thats what I was thinking in my mind, but I didn't want to sound to insulting when I typed it out. tounge.gif
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  • SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Banned Posts: 938
    QUOTE(Cxwf @ May 25 2007, 12:22 PM) »
    Well, thats what I was thinking in my mind, but I didn't want to sound to insulting when I typed it out. tounge.gif


    You're in a minority. The standard of play on pretty much every public server is terribly low.
    *IMAGE BALEETED.* Sigs are not to exceed 400x75 or 22KB. No exceptions. -Talesin
  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Members, Constellation Posts: 1,618
    edited May 2007
    Ok, so since we all seem to agree that poor comming is much more prevalent than good comming, tell me again why a poor comm should be instantly ejected 20 seconds into the game, instead of taught how to be better?
    Also Known As :: Kerostasis
  • SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Banned Posts: 938
    QUOTE(Cxwf @ May 26 2007, 12:57 PM) »
    Ok, so since we all seem to agree that poor comming is much more prevalent than good comming, tell me again why a poor comm should be instantly ejected 20 seconds into the game, instead of taught how to be better?


    Because it's public, if you try and correct people and tell them how to do things properly, you're more likely to get flamed and kicked/banned for "backseat commanding" than they are to actually listen to you and get better. Public in this community is a complete lost cause - I have never seen any other community like it.
    *IMAGE BALEETED.* Sigs are not to exceed 400x75 or 22KB. No exceptions. -Talesin
  • MrBenMrBen ns_eclipse, ns_veil caretaker Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8575Members Posts: 1,119
    Learn how not get base rushed, it's a better use of your time.

    You don't push acidic if they have sat comm without leaving a guy in chemical.

    You don't push cargo node if they have pipeline without someone guarding east junction.

    You don't push south loop if they have maintenance without leaving someone in keyhole.

    Once you've learnt how to position your marines to cut aliens off from your base, then you can design a base not for defense, but to cut back on lost time. When you don't have to worry about skulks eating your stuff you can do crazy things like have your PGs near your IPs so marines can phase through quickly without the fear that one skulk can easily camp either structure marines can come through.
    nL-Benjamin - Periodic map contributor, forum troll, retired arrogant clanner and commanding guru.

    IPB ImageIPB ImageIPB Image
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members Posts: 7,019
    QUOTE(Cxwf @ May 26 2007, 12:57 PM) »

    Ok, so since we all seem to agree that poor comming is much more prevalent than good comming, tell me again why a poor comm should be instantly ejected 20 seconds into the game, instead of taught how to be better?

    I don't eject poor comms, I eject idiots who aren't even trying. There are comms out there who drop too many turrets and don't have very solid build tree's and take long periods of time to med, but at least they do put the structures against the wall. Those comms have a basic knowledge of comming, but they lack in strategical development and experience. I don't eject those guys, I try to work with them, they will improve sooner or later. If you don't even have the basics of knowing you don't put a TF in MS, you don't drop structures in oddly shaped bunches in the middle of MS, and you need RTs, then I eject the comm. There are lots of players out there at that level, and they shouldn't be comming, because it's not that they are comm's with unpolished skill, they are just not comms period.

    I'd say a prerequisite for comming would be at least browsing through 1 decent comming tutorial, and playing at least 1 game in a comm some bots server. Those who can't even meet those don't really deserve a chance to screw over the game for the other players, alien or marine.
    O_O image
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation Posts: 4,022 Fully active user
    Two things I would like to add:

    Counterintuitively, don't hide the obs. Or rather maximize the forward coverage of the obs area before trying to secret away in some corner. The obs is more useful to your marines if it gives them a clear view of the hive(or the halfway near marine start) then if you have it hidden in some corner to keep it "safe". Yes put it against the wall and yes hide it if you can, but forward position is more important.

    Place your tf as far back as defendably possible. I see good comms making the mistake of dropping the tf far too close to what they're seiging. I've noticed that many actually drop them where they should be dropping the turrets. Take the time to learn the good seige spots. And if you're on a map(on on the side of a hive that you don't usually siege from) where you don't know the "good spot", take a couple seconds to eyeball a good spot.

    One example: Seiging furnace from the lava room on Origin. You don't have to put the tf in the lava room to seige the hive. If you put it against the wall and in line with the hive in the room BEFORE the lava room(which is the best place to put the pg) you can put three seiges at the edge of the tfs' range that can hit the hive.
    QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 28 2007, 09:21 PM) »
    It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!


    - NS in game name - tilde - My Steam Id Page - .
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