<!--quoteo(post=1628633:date=May 23 2007, 01:06 AM:name=Wyzcrak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wyzcrak @ May 23 2007, 01:06 AM) [snapback]1628633[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Your second statement there resolves this otherwise endless cycle of discussion. "Common" goals often aren't, especially in public spaces.
I could expound, but I think my point is well made in our experience as gamers. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1628795:date=May 23 2007, 06:23 PM:name=Firewater)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ May 23 2007, 06:23 PM) [snapback]1628795[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I'm afraid I do not understand what you mean. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1628629:date=May 23 2007, 12:44 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ May 23 2007, 12:44 AM) [snapback]1628629[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Well put Firewater, however it seems you'e avoiding the meta-game. In my opinion a good player must not only be able to do what you described above, he also needs to have qualities that help develop his team in the long run. The ability to pick up new things and improve is obviously a prerequisit for becoming a good player, however that is worth squat if you're not prepared to work for the improvement of the team. After all it is a team game, and if you play against players who are as good as you and your team are then the team that has been or is able to take care of it's combinded qualities the best will win - in the long run at least.
Of course this only applies to competetive teams, as casual ones neither care nor for the most part are able to keep a constant team for a decent period of time. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was mostly applying this to the casual play model.
Your right about meta-game, however how many pubs actually reach that level of play?
I also said that the player does what is neccessary for the team, if that means sticking in squads, then so be it. If that means going off on his or her own to make something happen, so be it.
I am against having people in squads just for the sake of being in squads, and pointing out how solo players do not contribute to the team and other non-sense like that. I think those people are really maladaptive and would not fit in the general definition of "good" player
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
prob was a kid, still they to gotta learn. I aint a kid myself, just a mean person. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1628880:date=May 24 2007, 02:56 AM:name=DC_Darkling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DC_Darkling @ May 24 2007, 02:56 AM) [snapback]1628880[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> prob was a kid, still they to gotta learn. I aint a kid myself, just a mean person. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> kids
learn to not take video games so seriously <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
A good NS player applies all the skill and knowledge they have about the game to try to win each round they play. You can have all the skills and smarts in the world, but if you screw around and generally act like jerk to other people your still a frigging sucky player.
Good NS players don't just play to "have fun" they play to make the game fun for everyone else as well, and that means playing to reach the goal the game sets out for you, weather you take the game "seriously" or not. This also means they don't intentionally team stack.
This is a team oriented game, unfortunately, a solo player with enough talent can beat out the other team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->a solo player can not beat a coordinated team, no matter how good he is. even when mediocre players actually play together as a fluid, coordinated unit, they are almost unbeatable until the other team also adheres together and works as a team. the problem is the kind of teamwork im referring to is so rare, especially on pubs. its a shame- games where you play together with some good players are pricelessly and incomparably fun.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1629438:date=May 26 2007, 09:50 PM:name=SnipeStar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SnipeStar @ May 26 2007, 09:50 PM) [snapback]1629438[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> a solo player can not beat a coordinated team, no matter how good he is. even when mediocre players actually play together as a fluid, coordinated unit, they are almost unbeatable until the other team also adheres together and works as a team. the problem is the kind of teamwork im referring to is so rare, especially on pubs. its a shame- games where you play together with some good players are pricelessly and incomparably fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe it's because the pub players on the team have to be "good" enough before they can work as coordinated team. There are many levels leading up to mastery of the game and most pub players usually aren't even on the first rung of the ladder.
<!--quoteo(post=1629438:date=May 26 2007, 08:50 PM:name=SnipeStar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SnipeStar @ May 26 2007, 08:50 PM) [snapback]1629438[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> a solo player can not beat a coordinated team, no matter how good he is. even when mediocre players actually play together as a fluid, coordinated unit, they are almost unbeatable until the other team also adheres together and works as a team. the problem is the kind of teamwork im referring to is so rare, especially on pubs. its a shame- games where you play together with some good players are pricelessly and incomparably fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you just said is 100% true, that and just the fun of competition(err maybe challenges, not sure what to say here) its self is why people play competitive NS. I gotta say playing competitive NS is WAAAAAY more fun than any other game I've ever played be it single or multi-player, too bad its so hard to achieve and the scene is pretty much dead.
Maybe it's because the pub players on the team have to be "good" enough before they can work as coordinated team. There are many levels leading up to mastery of the game and most pub players usually aren't even on the first rung of the ladder. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->absolutely agreed
I'd argue that it's other people's (i.e. ours) fault for messing up this "teamwork" that is lacking.
For example, there are often games where we see one or two players just destroy the other team in a single run, and everyone wants to be awesome like that.
Also, when was the last time an experienced player actually tried to setup a plan? The most common (and sometimes not even well implemented) is the Alien Hive Drop, and perhaps a good commander will help direct his team properly. You rarely have a Fade+skulk distraction or Oni perm-freezing marines so the team can swoop in for the kill, it's just one or two players decimating the enemy.
Sure it's also partially the skill level of the other players. I mean, who cares if you're making a plan if no one follows or can do it (i.e. my full upgraded heavy train once dying to skulks, wait, they died twice...) but still, I think we should be trying to organize our teams a little better to open their eyes to it's power. Then, hopefully, it'll propogate and more and more players will start being better teammates.
You need teamwork with the aliens because each form does a different thing. You can't build as a fade, fly as a skulk, etc. Different strengths means teamwork because you need to rely on others.
But as a marine, one player can do everything. And another thing is marines is touted as the teamwork team. However, what is teamwork? What, another person shooting at the thing you are shooting at? Is that any more teamwork than Counter-Strike? Perhaps you need someone to weld you, but even that might not happen.
The "individual" team relies more on teamwork than the "teamwork" team.
Anyway, spellman23, there are basically just a few things you can explain quickly and easily enough while in game that has anything to do with alien team tactics or strategy. They are as follows: chew nodes; chew nodes even though they're sieging our hive; parasite; don't rush at them; wait for backup. Most of the time they will be ignored, and when they're not there's a huge chance the players just won't be able to execute whatever it is regardless.
That's sort of the point why competetive players always whine at everyone to start playing competetively. It's incredibly difficult to learn the basics of coordinated attacks, baiting, overall game theory and other things that the 'teamwork' concept relies on, without having tried it out with the same team for a longer period. Try something, see where it went wrong and change it, discover some new aspect you discuss and put into practice. This is neigh impossible unless you're playing with a like-minded team.
because of the huge playerbase and long age, top cs teams have taken the gameplay (planning, coordination, execution etc) so much further than in any other game by comparison (except maybe starcraft). that applies to teamwork as well
A good player doesn't use "teamwork" for teamworks sake, they use it because teamwork is an avenue towards the goal every good player shares, winning the round for their team. Good players will use teamwork when it's called for, and they don't when it isn't.
"Teamwork" being useful is sort of a deceptive concept in the minds of pub players. It's useful to kill skulks trying to attack your teammates, it's useful to cover an ally building/killing a node while enemies are near by, it's useful to move in small groups that are able to concentrate fire on larger lifeforms. That being said, it's not useful to stand and watch me build at a safe node, go head towards the next node, I'll catch up with you when you're done. Similarly if I'm running away from the node you're building because you're currently safe in your job, don't stop building to follow me, I need to secure the forward position so skulks can't hid on the ceiling, you need to do your job and finish the node for the commander. Appropriate teamwork is something all good players will do most of the time, that being said, they are good not because they are using the teamwork, they are using the teamwork because they are good and know it's the right time and place.
CS has tonnes of teamwork... if you don't think so then you aren't playing it the right way. Just like NS.
ChocolateThe Team MascotJoin Date: 2006-10-31Member: 58123Members
edited May 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1628195:date=May 21 2007, 02:17 AM:name=Firewater)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ May 21 2007, 02:17 AM) [snapback]1628195[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I never understood why people are so against solo players engaging multiple enemies if said player is capable of doing so.
By having one player do the job of 3 or 4 players, that allows the rest of the team to obtain more resource nodes thus allowing the team to not only tech faster, but expand their dominance on the map.
It seems that a lot of NSers definition of teamwork is that squads of 4 or 5 have to be in the same room kind of in a way roleplaying and using "squad tactics".
This to me seems forced to me as I have seen first hand (as well as participated in) what damage a very good solo player can do.
Even if the rambo is racking up kills, that is still resources for the team he is collecting. Even if it just pays for his or her's meds and ammo, I still feel its worth it simply because a talented solo player can do the job of 3 or 4 people, they should be allowed to maximize the team's potential ability to win. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree that if a rambo can take on multiple aliens and do the help the team the most that way (Edit: besides "most players can do that" tasks like recapping RT's), im fine with that. It was in one of my last Do's "tries to be as effective as possible to the team" or something like that. Tho the thing is usually rambo's suck; they think they are superb but get 1 - 10 score because they ramboed all the time. Many people are incapable to take on multiple enemies at one time and be an effective solo player.
I'll make a modification to my post soon <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />.
PS: I havent read anything since my last post a few pages ago
We're not talking about rambo's we're talking about "solo players". Basically one guy going to somewhere where marine presence is needed for the team weather or not the rest of the nubs on the team follow him.
This is the guy who most commanders will yell at and say "hey nub, stick with your team" but he's also the guy who will recap the back of the map, establish hive lockdowns single handedly, be the only player to achieve an effective ninja, kill gorges who thought they were safe, take down fade/onos eggs, and deny skulks round the back access to marine start. Sure, label him 'rambo' if you want... but you've got far to high an opinion of teamwork if you're doing that.
players that are competent enough to take on multiple targets should kill alien rts and do nothing else, unless the game situation needs a spawncamp on the aliens (this is pubs im talking about)
ChocolateThe Team MascotJoin Date: 2006-10-31Member: 58123Members
edited May 2007
<i>[Im assuming the responses above are directed towards me, I really ought to read this topic]</i> That brings my point that if they are good at it and can do something positive to the team, I'd let them do their thing. I've been that comm where I had a team full of nubs and 1 good player, I gave them separate orders. Something like "good player go destroy RT's while the rest of the team hits their hive". I'm fine with that.
As I've said before, I've got a problem when the person deviates off orders for no good reason and does not produce adequate results. A person who "rambo's" to grab me RT's when we have 2 RT's is different than a person who rambo's for the sake of killing but ends up dying 5 times in a row.
<i>Note: I <b>did not</b> read what posts came before this, so any statements I have that are restated, incorrect or not included, do not flame at me for it. </i>
If I were to draw a line, I would say that: <b>A rambo:</b> A person who deviates off orders either for no reason given or no effective reason and generally does not provide results for that task up to my expectations (without a good reason).
<b>A solo:</b> A person who deviates off orders given to a majority of the team to do an effective task and (preferably) provides satisfactory results to their task.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
Last time I checked, Rambo always delivered results in his missions. If you want to call useless players something, call them useless. Unfortunately, you can't force people to do something. If they are useless at multiple levels, they will usually pretend to be useful. You can't force them to just spend their time building RTs or structures or guarding base. You can't stop them from running in straight lines into overwhelming odds.
<!--quoteo(post=1629878:date=May 29 2007, 06:22 PM:name=TOmekki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TOmekki @ May 29 2007, 06:22 PM) [snapback]1629878[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> players that are competent enough to take on multiple targets should kill alien rts and do nothing else, unless the game situation needs a spawncamp on the aliens (this is pubs im talking about) <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree. Even if a player is able to take on multiple targets, unless thier chances of taking down the alien nodes/establishing a spawncamp are very high (which it is not if they are alone), they are best utilized elsewhere, where they can legitimately establish map control. In pubs map control wins and loses games, the res game is secondary.
In scrims and matches taking down alien nodes quickly works because we send 2-3 guys to do it, usually with a shotgun or two. It only takes one reasonably skilled skulk to screw up your plans when you're alone, even if you are "good enough to take on multiple targets", not to mention your ability to acctually destroy the alien node in a timely manner is a fraction of what a shotgun marines would be, and you don't have the backup that shotgun marine would have in a match. In pubs, taking ground (taking down nodes is a side effect of taking ground) is something that should be done by groups of equipped marines.
Myeh maybe, but since it's a pub you'll get swarmed by useless skulks. Useless skulks that otherwise would be able to destroy the useless marines doing something anyone could do while you're distracting.
<!--quoteo(post=1629919:date=May 29 2007, 09:45 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swiftspear @ May 29 2007, 09:45 PM) [snapback]1629919[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I disagree. Even if a player is able to take on multiple targets, unless thier chances of taking down the alien nodes/establishing a spawncamp are very high (which it is not if they are alone), they are best utilized elsewhere, where they can legitimately establish map control. In pubs map control wins and loses games, the res game is secondary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> first of all, map control IS the res game, and vice versa. or are we talking about locking down hives with pgs and electrification/mines? you dont need that stuff to win a pub round. granted you dont need to kill rts to win a pub round either, but i assure you that by doing that it (the victory) will come much easier.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In scrims and matches taking down alien nodes quickly works because we send 2-3 guys to do it, usually with a shotgun or two. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "we"? since when have you ever played a competent match of ns? to clear things: if youre replying to me (or most other people) then you dont need to point out the obvious about 6v6 gameplay, or anything not-obvious for that matter
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It only takes one reasonably skilled skulk to screw up your plans when you're alone, even if you are "good enough to take on multiple targets", not to mention your ability to acctually destroy the alien node in a timely manner is a fraction of what a shotgun marines would be, and you don't have the backup that shotgun marine would have in a match. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> it depends a lot on the node you know. time is obviously an important element but on a pub, the more aware the alien team is then the more they will try to rush you knifing that node down. giving your team mates a chance to do whatever. and if theyre not aware (you know theyre not if not a single skulk comes to confront you when youre shooting down pipe rt) then you can just walk into cargo and start camping
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In pubs, taking ground (taking down nodes is a side effect of taking ground) is something that should be done by groups of equipped marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> taking ground is the side effect of taking down nodes. even on pubs. anyways, its pretty common these days (not like the good old days) that pub alien teams of around 8-9 in size will drop 3-5 nodes. its ###### scary, and gets scarier yet when you realise neither the comm or your team mates have any intentions of taking those nodes down. if you ask for a shotgun the comm might give one, to anybody who spawns first
I agree. Marine players in pubs generally play far to defensively. That doesn't mean that as a comm I want the best players on my team running off alone, even if they intend to take down nodes. Hell, force a pubbie to follow you or something, it's not that hard. Just shout their name.
Comments
Served him right. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
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kids
Your second statement there resolves this otherwise endless cycle of discussion. "Common" goals often aren't, especially in public spaces.
I could expound, but I think my point is well made in our experience as gamers.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm afraid I do not understand what you mean.
I'm afraid I do not understand what you mean.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He means, gorges just want to have fun.
Well put Firewater, however it seems you'e avoiding the meta-game. In my opinion a good player must not only be able to do what you described above, he also needs to have qualities that help develop his team in the long run. The ability to pick up new things and improve is obviously a prerequisit for becoming a good player, however that is worth squat if you're not prepared to work for the improvement of the team. After all it is a team game, and if you play against players who are as good as you and your team are then the team that has been or is able to take care of it's combinded qualities the best will win - in the long run at least.
Of course this only applies to competetive teams, as casual ones neither care nor for the most part are able to keep a constant team for a decent period of time.
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I was mostly applying this to the casual play model.
Your right about meta-game, however how many pubs actually reach that level of play?
I also said that the player does what is neccessary for the team, if that means sticking in squads, then so be it. If that means going off on his or her own to make something happen, so be it.
I am against having people in squads just for the sake of being in squads, and pointing out how solo players do not contribute to the team and other non-sense like that. I think those people are really maladaptive and would not fit in the general definition of "good" player
I aint a kid myself, just a mean person. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
prob was a kid, still they to gotta learn.
I aint a kid myself, just a mean person. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
kids
learn to not take video games so seriously <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Good NS players don't just play to "have fun" they play to make the game fun for everyone else as well, and that means playing to reach the goal the game sets out for you, weather you take the game "seriously" or not. This also means they don't intentionally team stack.
This is a team oriented game, unfortunately, a solo player with enough talent can beat out the other team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->a solo player can not beat a coordinated team, no matter how good he is. even when mediocre players actually play together as a fluid, coordinated unit, they are almost unbeatable until the other team also adheres together and works as a team. the problem is the kind of teamwork im referring to is so rare, especially on pubs. its a shame- games where you play together with some good players are pricelessly and incomparably fun.
a solo player can not beat a coordinated team, no matter how good he is. even when mediocre players actually play together as a fluid, coordinated unit, they are almost unbeatable until the other team also adheres together and works as a team. the problem is the kind of teamwork im referring to is so rare, especially on pubs. its a shame- games where you play together with some good players are pricelessly and incomparably fun.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe it's because the pub players on the team have to be "good" enough before they can work as coordinated team. There are many levels leading up to mastery of the game and most pub players usually aren't even on the first rung of the ladder.
a solo player can not beat a coordinated team, no matter how good he is. even when mediocre players actually play together as a fluid, coordinated unit, they are almost unbeatable until the other team also adheres together and works as a team. the problem is the kind of teamwork im referring to is so rare, especially on pubs. its a shame- games where you play together with some good players are pricelessly and incomparably fun.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you just said is 100% true, that and just the fun of competition(err maybe challenges, not sure what to say here) its self is why people play competitive NS. I gotta say playing competitive NS is WAAAAAY more fun than any other game I've ever played be it single or multi-player, too bad its so hard to achieve and the scene is pretty much dead.
Maybe it's because the pub players on the team have to be "good" enough before they can work as coordinated team. There are many levels leading up to mastery of the game and most pub players usually aren't even on the first rung of the ladder. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->absolutely agreed
For example, there are often games where we see one or two players just destroy the other team in a single run, and everyone wants to be awesome like that.
Also, when was the last time an experienced player actually tried to setup a plan? The most common (and sometimes not even well implemented) is the Alien Hive Drop, and perhaps a good commander will help direct his team properly. You rarely have a Fade+skulk distraction or Oni perm-freezing marines so the team can swoop in for the kill, it's just one or two players decimating the enemy.
Sure it's also partially the skill level of the other players. I mean, who cares if you're making a plan if no one follows or can do it (i.e. my full upgraded heavy train once dying to skulks, wait, they died twice...) but still, I think we should be trying to organize our teams a little better to open their eyes to it's power. Then, hopefully, it'll propogate and more and more players will start being better teammates.
But as a marine, one player can do everything. And another thing is marines is touted as the teamwork team. However, what is teamwork? What, another person shooting at the thing you are shooting at? Is that any more teamwork than Counter-Strike? Perhaps you need someone to weld you, but even that might not happen.
The "individual" team relies more on teamwork than the "teamwork" team.
Anyway, spellman23, there are basically just a few things you can explain quickly and easily enough while in game that has anything to do with alien team tactics or strategy. They are as follows: chew nodes; chew nodes even though they're sieging our hive; parasite; don't rush at them; wait for backup. Most of the time they will be ignored, and when they're not there's a huge chance the players just won't be able to execute whatever it is regardless.
That's sort of the point why competetive players always whine at everyone to start playing competetively. It's incredibly difficult to learn the basics of coordinated attacks, baiting, overall game theory and other things that the 'teamwork' concept relies on, without having tried it out with the same team for a longer period. Try something, see where it went wrong and change it, discover some new aspect you discuss and put into practice. This is neigh impossible unless you're playing with a like-minded team.
because of the huge playerbase and long age, top cs teams have taken the gameplay (planning, coordination, execution etc) so much further than in any other game by comparison (except maybe starcraft). that applies to teamwork as well
"Teamwork" being useful is sort of a deceptive concept in the minds of pub players. It's useful to kill skulks trying to attack your teammates, it's useful to cover an ally building/killing a node while enemies are near by, it's useful to move in small groups that are able to concentrate fire on larger lifeforms. That being said, it's not useful to stand and watch me build at a safe node, go head towards the next node, I'll catch up with you when you're done. Similarly if I'm running away from the node you're building because you're currently safe in your job, don't stop building to follow me, I need to secure the forward position so skulks can't hid on the ceiling, you need to do your job and finish the node for the commander. Appropriate teamwork is something all good players will do most of the time, that being said, they are good not because they are using the teamwork, they are using the teamwork because they are good and know it's the right time and place.
CS has tonnes of teamwork... if you don't think so then you aren't playing it the right way. Just like NS.
I never understood why people are so against solo players engaging multiple enemies if said player is capable of doing so.
By having one player do the job of 3 or 4 players, that allows the rest of the team to obtain more resource nodes thus allowing the team to not only tech faster, but expand their dominance on the map.
It seems that a lot of NSers definition of teamwork is that squads of 4 or 5 have to be in the same room kind of in a way roleplaying and using "squad tactics".
This to me seems forced to me as I have seen first hand (as well as participated in) what damage a very good solo player can do.
Even if the rambo is racking up kills, that is still resources for the team he is collecting. Even if it just pays for his or her's meds and ammo, I still feel its worth it simply because a talented solo player can do the job of 3 or 4 people, they should be allowed to maximize the team's potential ability to win.
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I agree that if a rambo can take on multiple aliens and do the help the team the most that way (Edit: besides "most players can do that" tasks like recapping RT's), im fine with that. It was in one of my last Do's "tries to be as effective as possible to the team" or something like that. Tho the thing is usually rambo's suck; they think they are superb but get 1 - 10 score because they ramboed all the time. Many people are incapable to take on multiple enemies at one time and be an effective solo player.
I'll make a modification to my post soon <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />.
PS: I havent read anything since my last post a few pages ago
This is the guy who most commanders will yell at and say "hey nub, stick with your team" but he's also the guy who will recap the back of the map, establish hive lockdowns single handedly, be the only player to achieve an effective ninja, kill gorges who thought they were safe, take down fade/onos eggs, and deny skulks round the back access to marine start. Sure, label him 'rambo' if you want... but you've got far to high an opinion of teamwork if you're doing that.
That brings my point that if they are good at it and can do something positive to the team, I'd let them do their thing. I've been that comm where I had a team full of nubs and 1 good player, I gave them separate orders. Something like "good player go destroy RT's while the rest of the team hits their hive". I'm fine with that.
As I've said before, I've got a problem when the person deviates off orders for no good reason and does not produce adequate results. A person who "rambo's" to grab me RT's when we have 2 RT's is different than a person who rambo's for the sake of killing but ends up dying 5 times in a row.
<i>Note: I <b>did not</b> read what posts came before this, so any statements I have that are restated, incorrect or not included, do not flame at me for it. </i>
If I were to draw a line, I would say that:
<b>A rambo:</b> A person who deviates off orders either for no reason given or no effective reason and generally does not provide results for that task up to my expectations (without a good reason).
<b>A solo:</b> A person who deviates off orders given to a majority of the team to do an effective task and (preferably) provides satisfactory results to their task.
players that are competent enough to take on multiple targets should kill alien rts and do nothing else, unless the game situation needs a spawncamp on the aliens (this is pubs im talking about)
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I disagree. Even if a player is able to take on multiple targets, unless thier chances of taking down the alien nodes/establishing a spawncamp are very high (which it is not if they are alone), they are best utilized elsewhere, where they can legitimately establish map control. In pubs map control wins and loses games, the res game is secondary.
In scrims and matches taking down alien nodes quickly works because we send 2-3 guys to do it, usually with a shotgun or two. It only takes one reasonably skilled skulk to screw up your plans when you're alone, even if you are "good enough to take on multiple targets", not to mention your ability to acctually destroy the alien node in a timely manner is a fraction of what a shotgun marines would be, and you don't have the backup that shotgun marine would have in a match. In pubs, taking ground (taking down nodes is a side effect of taking ground) is something that should be done by groups of equipped marines.
I disagree. Even if a player is able to take on multiple targets, unless thier chances of taking down the alien nodes/establishing a spawncamp are very high (which it is not if they are alone), they are best utilized elsewhere, where they can legitimately establish map control. In pubs map control wins and loses games, the res game is secondary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
first of all, map control IS the res game, and vice versa. or are we talking about locking down hives with pgs and electrification/mines? you dont need that stuff to win a pub round. granted you dont need to kill rts to win a pub round either, but i assure you that by doing that it (the victory) will come much easier.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In scrims and matches taking down alien nodes quickly works because we send 2-3 guys to do it, usually with a shotgun or two. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"we"? since when have you ever played a competent match of ns? to clear things: if youre replying to me (or most other people) then you dont need to point out the obvious about 6v6 gameplay, or anything not-obvious for that matter
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It only takes one reasonably skilled skulk to screw up your plans when you're alone, even if you are "good enough to take on multiple targets", not to mention your ability to acctually destroy the alien node in a timely manner is a fraction of what a shotgun marines would be, and you don't have the backup that shotgun marine would have in a match. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it depends a lot on the node you know. time is obviously an important element but on a pub, the more aware the alien team is then the more they will try to rush you knifing that node down. giving your team mates a chance to do whatever. and if theyre not aware (you know theyre not if not a single skulk comes to confront you when youre shooting down pipe rt) then you can just walk into cargo and start camping
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In pubs, taking ground (taking down nodes is a side effect of taking ground) is something that should be done by groups of equipped marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
taking ground is the side effect of taking down nodes. even on pubs. anyways, its pretty common these days (not like the good old days) that pub alien teams of around 8-9 in size will drop 3-5 nodes. its ###### scary, and gets scarier yet when you realise neither the comm or your team mates have any intentions of taking those nodes down. if you ask for a shotgun the comm might give one, to anybody who spawns first
rolf.......continue