<!--quoteo(post=1620777:date=Apr 13 2007, 09:43 PM:name=Moving_Target0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Moving_Target0 @ Apr 13 2007, 09:43 PM) [snapback]1620777[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Marines can, you know, move. Jetpackers would be immune to this unless you're a complete idiot. Really, I think the onos needs another way to attack as it is, he's mostly a large target now. A ramp, as I said before, wouldn't deal as much because the onos didn't fall as far. Besides, does it really matter too much where it lands? either way, it's going to hurt like a thousand rabid skulks gnawing on your gutturals. There are very few places as is that an onos could do substantial damage. Physics should be a part in NS2, it makes things more fun!
If you're going to complain about onos dealing damage with the onos, though, why not complain about devour? It's one hit kill if you're hit by it, and the onos escapes. Hey, and why not try to go further? Suggest rocket launcher turrets that only fire against "onis" so that they're even more useless that before.
I don't think you play much on the aliens, Svenpa, or else you'd know that the onos needs something now since they can be jetpack solo'd. Why not incorporate physics? On the flip side, jetpacking marines could land on skulks and break their backs, or burn them from the exaust!
Summary: If an onos lands on you, you're either going to be screwed anyways, or you can move and be unharmed. This wouldn't be a catastrophic balance issue, and I think it would add a nice touch of realism to NS / NS2. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems like you havnt played aliens alot. Onos got a rather big armor boost in 3.2 and is very hard to solo with jetpack unless the player is blatantly retarded. Im confused why you mention jetpacks at all though since crushing marines wouldn't help the onos against jetpacks who you claim can solo one.
Why complain on a feature which has been in the game even before 2.0 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> it's become pretty balanced by now. Im asking how the onos should deal damage when falling on marines yet you seem to know the answear by default even if it wasnt you who came up with the idea.
What im really complaining about is instant killing onis, devour at least slows the onos down and the marine can still be saved but falling on someone can easely be over exploited since it's a insta one shot kill. Ladders, ramps, ledges or anything that gives the onos a height advantage can give it the opportunity for a easy insta kill. Throw in cloak and silence in the mix and you have a free effective instant killing feature. Sure jetpacks wont be effected much but heavy armor is more usual and vanillas are always around.
<!--quoteo(post=1620787:date=Apr 13 2007, 09:17 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Apr 13 2007, 09:17 PM) [snapback]1620787[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Seems like you havnt played aliens alot. Onos got a rather big armor boost in 3.2 and is very hard to solo with jetpack unless the player is blatantly retarded. Im confused why you mention jetpacks at all though since crushing marines wouldn't help the onos against jetpacks who you claim can solo one.
Why complain on a feature which has been in the game even before 2.0 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> it's become pretty balanced by now. Im asking how the onos should deal damage when falling on marines yet you seem to know the answear by default even if it wasnt you who came up with the idea.
What im really complaining about is instant killing onis, devour at least slows the onos down and the marine can still be saved but falling on someone can easely be over exploited since it's a insta one shot kill. Ladders, ramps, ledges or anything that gives the onos a height advantage can give it the opportunity for a easy insta kill. Throw in cloak and silence in the mix and you have a free effective instant killing feature. Sure jetpacks wont be effected much but heavy armor is more usual and vanillas are always around. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously, you haven't tried fighting an onos as a JP in any kind of large room. Too easy...I mentioned JPs because it renders marines near invincible to this attack, as I said before.
I'm not complaining about devour. I was asking if those things were what you were going to ask about next.
Note, I didn't say an instant kill if they have armor. You seem to think it is 100% death rate at any height, as well. I don't know exactly how much damage an onos should do by landing on someone, but it shouldn't be a mere scratch. You try lifting an elephant sometime and get back to me. As I said, in a balanced standpoint, extreme damage from an onos landing on you would be fine, since the onos can kill a marine in a matter of seconds anways. What more will one large hit of damage do? in the long run? Not much. A cloaked, silent onos eating people or goring them with focus is just as effective as this. I don't see what's so bad about it.
<!--quoteo(post=1620887:date=Apr 14 2007, 07:06 AM:name=glimmerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(glimmerman @ Apr 14 2007, 07:06 AM) [snapback]1620887[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I'm with MT here. I can solo <b>any</b> onos with a jp, a medium sized room and a HMG. it's just that easy!
The added armour bonous for the onos accounts for nothing when I can just hover above him and rip into his/her/its like no tomorrow.
It's a fact. The onos is too nerfed. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the onos stays in the same open room during the time it's being shot at I would declare it retarded and not appliable for this idea. NS is mostly built in small corridors with rooms and some exceptionaly large areas, if you move out from one room to the next your often bound to come to someplace smaller.
<!--quoteo(post=1620920:date=Apr 14 2007, 11:45 AM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Apr 14 2007, 11:45 AM) [snapback]1620920[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If the onos stays in the same open room during the time it's being shot at I would declare it retarded and not appliable for this idea. NS is mostly built in small corridors with rooms and some exceptionaly large areas, if you move out from one room to the next your often bound to come to someplace smaller. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm, have you ever noticed that JPs are faster than an onos and can chase them down? Even in corridors, a half-decent player can pwn an onos in a matter of roughly 10 seconds. The onos, simply put, isn't as good as it used to be. A player that gets solo'd by a JP when they're an onos isn't idiotic. He's normal.
<!--quoteo(post=1620945:date=Apr 14 2007, 05:16 PM:name=Moving_Target0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Moving_Target0 @ Apr 14 2007, 05:16 PM) [snapback]1620945[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Umm, have you ever noticed that JPs are faster than an onos and can chase them down? Even in corridors, a half-decent player can pwn an onos in a matter of roughly 10 seconds. The onos, simply put, isn't as good as it used to be. A player that gets solo'd by a JP when they're an onos isn't idiotic. He's normal. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then, again, the onos is double retarded for not useing jump and gore/devour (gore has great range if used combined with jump). Even if the jp is faster he has to jumper over the onos at some point and then the onos can reach him. Dont forget that the aliens is a team, just one leaping skulk can distract the jp or kill him while occupied by shooting the onos.
<!--quoteo(post=1620948:date=Apr 14 2007, 03:24 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Apr 14 2007, 03:24 PM) [snapback]1620948[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Then, again, the onos is double retarded for not useing jump and gore/devour (gore has great range if used combined with jump). Even if the jp is faster he has to jumper over the onos at some point and then the onos can reach him. Dont forget that the aliens is a team, just one leaping skulk can distract the jp or kill him while occupied by shooting the onos. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We're not discussing team battles.
Here's what usually happens in onos vs. JP
*onos enters room from one end, JP from the other. *onos starts to run from the room. JP starts pumping him full of lead. *onos gets into the hallway, but is still being shot by the JP. *onos turns the corner and waits. JP throws grenades.
At this point, it splits.
Situation A: Onos loses his nerve due to low HP and starts to back off. JP notices this, flies around the corner, and guns him down.
Situation B: Onos stays put. JP barely goes around the corner to lure him out (on the farthest away side), flies backwards to avoid being eaten/gored, and guns the now exposed onos down.
EDIT: Oh, yeah, might I also add staying in that room with the JP, as you pointed out yourself, is suicide for the onos and a "retarded action".
Comm chatter: "Chase down the Onos! Don't let it get away!"
The Onos dies too easily, especially when confronted with a small handful of marines. Even if the onos encounters 2-3 marines in a hallway, the Onos should come out victorious. What is even more frustrating is that the onos dies in less than a second if it happens to accidentally wander into a group of half of the marine team. The HMGs/shotguns simply tear it up too quickly, not allowing any time to react. The Onos needs SOMETHING to increase its power (such as trampling/crushing).
This is a little off-topic, but the same goes for fades, too. Sure, a l33t fade can pwn the entire rine team without breaking a sweat. But what about an average player? It's too easy for a lone marine to solo a fade, even if the fade blinks right up to the marine and gets the first hit.
<!--quoteo(post=1620993:date=Apr 14 2007, 07:55 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Apr 14 2007, 07:55 PM) [snapback]1620993[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Were not discussing team battle in a team based game?
Onos best friend is lerks with umbra. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said a team battle. We were talking about a JP solo'ing an onos, not anything else. On a side note, if it is a 2 v 2, and the lerk umbras the Onos, the lerk will get shot down as well as the onos. Sadly, I think the lerk has the better chance. If it's a 1 v 2, gun the lerk and then the onos. Problem solved. If it's 2 vs. 1 against the onos, you might as well just forget it. You're screwed.
It's very easy to say "then they just shoot x alien" in a discussion like this. But in real game everything would be different. The jps probably would be more score ###### when they see a onos the might not even care about the lerk as it makes them waste precious bullets which could loose them the onos kill.
It's like those people who say "1vs1 see whos best", it dosn't work that way, there is a team on the map and the reactions are way to many to calculate. It has been said before, the onos is a siege machine meant to destroy buildings quickly, not a unstoppable player killer.
Onos < JP < skulk,fade,lerk Onos > HA > skulk,fade,lerk
JPs are just marines with ability to fly, OCs and gas makes them soft and easy kills.
<!--quoteo(post=1621018:date=Apr 14 2007, 10:42 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Apr 14 2007, 10:42 PM) [snapback]1621018[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It's very easy to say "then they just shoot x alien" in a discussion like this. But in real game everything would be different. The jps probably would be more score ###### when they see a onos the might not even care about the lerk as it makes them waste precious bullets which could loose them the onos kill.
It's like those people who say "1vs1 see whos best", it dosn't work that way, there is a team on the map and the reactions are way to many to calculate. It has been said before, the onos is a siege machine meant to destroy buildings quickly, not a unstoppable player killer.
Onos < JP < skulk,fade,lerk Onos > HA > skulk,fade,lerk
JPs are just marines with ability to fly, OCs and gas makes them soft and easy kills. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's very easy to say shoot X alien. It's almost easier to do it in game.
I am aware that it doesn't work with 1v1 see who's best. However, HMGs can mow down any life form easily, onos included. That's what we're saying needs a change. Giving onos a slight advantage to JUMP on a marine from a distance to deal damage isn't something that would make a drastic change. Since this thread has gone off topic and it's mainly a debate with you saying it would be imbalanced vs. me who says it's fine (along with supporters), it might as well be locked.
<!--quoteo(post=1621037:date=Apr 15 2007, 02:42 AM:name=Moving_Target0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Moving_Target0 @ Apr 15 2007, 02:42 AM) [snapback]1621037[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It's very easy to say shoot X alien. It's almost easier to do it in game.
I am aware that it doesn't work with 1v1 see who's best. However, HMGs can mow down any life form easily, onos included. That's what we're saying needs a change. Giving onos a slight advantage to JUMP on a marine from a distance to deal damage isn't something that would make a drastic change. Since this thread has gone off topic and it's mainly a debate with you saying it would be imbalanced vs. me who says it's fine (along with supporters), it might as well be locked. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Debating a idea is part of I&S not just saying "yes" or "no" to the given idea.
I can see why you want it in but I also foresee massive exploitation.
<!--quoteo(post=1621077:date=Apr 15 2007, 10:05 AM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Apr 15 2007, 10:05 AM) [snapback]1621077[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Debating a idea is part of I&S not just saying "yes" or "no" to the given idea.
I can see why you want it in but I also foresee massive exploitation. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
explain the "exploitation." An onos camping at the top of a ramp can be shot, etc...
Think of a heavy as a tank, Its has alot of heavy metal, reinforced frame, and powerful engine. If an elephant rams a tank, the tank may shake for a moment but isnt going to be damaged. I believe the same thing is true about the Heavy armor. With NS 1 you cant tell from your view but have you looked at another marine with the HA on, your just as tall as the onoses, The Heavys are so big it takes hydraulics to make them move. If you were designing a combat suit that needs hydraulics just to move, would you include only the minimum amount or would you make the suit super strong? They heavy is the Hardcore Battle suit, no fat elephant should just be able to crush it, Even if they weight 2-3 tons, Im not saying the Heavy suit should be able to just swat the onos off like a fly, hell he shouldnt even be able to stand up with the onos on him, but he should be able to lye down and wait for his buddies to save him. Besides the Onoses already have stomp and devour to defeat a heavy, they dont need the power to just crush them.
My response to glimmerman on the first page, didnt bother to read all the way to page 3 until just now.
Also with all this talk of Falling onoses, have any of you ever stoped and though about the damage it would do to the onos itself? How many of you have ever turned to the animal planet and saw an elephant falling from 8 or 9 feet? (ladder height)
I did some math and this is what i came up with,
If a onos falls of a ladder of 8 feet and takes 2 seconds to hit the ground, the onos will be traveling at 19.6m/s, times that by 2 tons or 4000 bounds and you get 78,400 pounds at impact of the ground, if you divided that by 4 for the number of legs the onos has that will be catching its landing, the force on each leg is 19,600 pounds (at landing).
My question, can the Onoses knee really stand up that amout of force with no damage?
Apparently so. On another note, can a suit of armor take that much?
Besides, think - By saying that the armor would be destroyed, things are more balanced. I think we've all seen the Heavy Armor from the outside. The main thing is, The marine would die - bruising, and the impact from falling over that fast and hitting metal. I think saying that the HA is lost is fair enough, since onoses just eat them anyways.
As for normal marines...they're about sunk, but JPs can avoid the onos easily as is.
<!--quoteo(post=1621137:date=Apr 15 2007, 02:31 PM:name=Moving_Target0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Moving_Target0 @ Apr 15 2007, 02:31 PM) [snapback]1621137[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> explain the "exploitation." An onos camping at the top of a ramp can be shot, etc... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said.
Svenpa, tell me of a single time you were for anything useful for the aliens since you have been on this board. Never mind the boosts to marines to counter it. I've just never seen you support ANY alien idea.
First consider the idea for what fun it could bring. Then look at balancing. And when balancing: TAKE THE WHOLE PICTURE INTO ACCOUNT. Like the quote above, marines can shoot. Shoot him first, don't stand there at the base of a ladder with an onos up top. Get a grenade launcher. Use a flamethrower to flush him out. Plenty of other counters I can think of. I think you should read <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=200923054239861216&showtopic=100967" target="_blank">my thread</a> about being afraid of change. And before you say it: BS that you aren't, everybody who likes this game is to some degree. I just ask you to consider the severity of your fear thereby unacceptance of a new idea like this. Open your mind. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1621162:date=Apr 15 2007, 06:09 PM:name=Creedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Creedy @ Apr 15 2007, 06:09 PM) [snapback]1621162[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Think of a heavy as a tank, Its has alot of heavy metal, reinforced frame, and powerful engine. If an elephant rams a tank, the tank may shake for a moment but isnt going to be damaged. I believe the same thing is true about the Heavy armor. With NS 1 you cant tell from your view but have you looked at another marine with the HA on, your just as tall as the onoses, The Heavys are so big it takes hydraulics to make them move. If you were designing a combat suit that needs hydraulics just to move, would you include only the minimum amount or would you make the suit super strong? They heavy is the Hardcore Battle suit, no fat elephant should just be able to crush it, Even if they weight 2-3 tons, Im not saying the Heavy suit should be able to just swat the onos off like a fly, hell he shouldnt even be able to stand up with the onos on him, but he should be able to lye down and wait for his buddies to save him. Besides the Onoses already have stomp and devour to defeat a heavy, they dont need the power to just crush them. My response to glimmerman on the first page, didnt bother to read all the way to page 3 until just now.
Also with all this talk of Falling onoses, have any of you ever stoped and though about the damage it would do to the onos itself? How many of you have ever turned to the animal planet and saw an elephant falling from 8 or 9 feet? (ladder height)
I did some math and this is what i came up with,
If a onos falls of a ladder of 8 feet and takes 2 seconds to hit the ground, the onos will be traveling at 19.6m/s, times that by 2 tons or 4000 bounds and you get 78,400 pounds at impact of the ground, if you divided that by 4 for the number of legs the onos has that will be catching its landing, the force on each leg is 19,600 pounds (at landing). <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I have not seen falling elephants. But then again I've never seen something as large as an onos grow from something as small as a skulk in a time period easily measurable in seconds. I certainly encourage realism but you can't say for sure what the onos is made of. I had made a biological fanfiction of the anatomy of the different lifeforms and the only thing that made sense with the numbers was that the aliens did not have calcium carbonate bones. Only a carbon matrix would stand up to those forces. A kind of biologically grown diamond crystal lattice structure to help support the bone tissue. Also let's not forget that if you make a big jump and land with your legs straight and unbent you'll really hurt yourself too. So it stands to reason that we should refect a bending of the knees if the onos takes a fall.
<!--quoteo(post=1621185:date=Apr 15 2007, 09:45 PM:name=Creedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Creedy @ Apr 15 2007, 09:45 PM) [snapback]1621185[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> So a bunny hopping onos can use charge, jump on a row of heavys, and let the focus fades come and mop them up? gg? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come on now you're just trying to sabotage Ballisto's good idea with silly arguements of things that are just too rare... since when can onii jump that high? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
Easy solution too: Onii have more mass, so gravity's pull is stronger, and can't jump as high as the other classes.
I did give alot of feedback on a new chamber if you have a look on that thread, there was something else too but I cant remember atm, which pretty much everyone liked.
It's not Im afraid of new ideas, I've just seen how far people can go to exploit things to the max, especially such things which can turn things around drasticly.
Imagine a onos with cloak, or worse, near a sc chamber, he can stand on anything that gives a hight advantage and jump on a marines head, without revealing himself! Stand near a ladder and as a HA team goes down on it the onos crushes at least one of them, eats one then stomps and gores a third. Also following a onos up a ladder would be suicide every time. Being cloaked ON a ladder would be even worse, the marines goes up the ladder and suddenly the first guy dies (onos remains cloaked) the 2nd or even third would also be simply crushed without much effort. Devestating to anything except jetpacks. Dont forget elevators.
Throw in celerity and ledges/ramps and players will train to jump on marines head, as you know it jumps pretty high but the hitbox under the onos is very big. The marines can be aware too but if the onos just rushes in it can crush one even before they are even able to run away far enough to avoid it.
Hell, if you use super lerk lift players will be dropping onis as bombs.
Even if im pessimistic or conservative it's up to the devs to decide which idea to include or not, im sure they're able to oversee my comments if they seem out of place regarding the idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1621265:date=Apr 16 2007, 02:39 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Apr 16 2007, 02:39 PM) [snapback]1621265[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I did give alot of feedback on a new chamber if you have a look on that thread, there was something else too but I cant remember atm, which pretty much everyone liked.
It's not Im afraid of new ideas, I've just seen how far people can go to exploit things to the max, especially such things which can turn things around drasticly.
Imagine a onos with cloak, or worse, near a sc chamber, he can stand on anything that gives a hight advantage and jump on a marines head, without revealing himself! Stand near a ladder and as a HA team goes down on it the onos crushes at least one of them, eats one then stomps and gores a third. Also following a onos up a ladder would be suicide every time. Being cloaked ON a ladder would be even worse, the marines goes up the ladder and suddenly the first guy dies (onos remains cloaked) the 2nd or even third would also be simply crushed without much effort. Devestating to anything except jetpacks. Dont forget elevators.
Throw in celerity and ledges/ramps and players will train to jump on marines head, as you know it jumps pretty high but the hitbox under the onos is very big. The marines can be aware too but if the onos just rushes in it can crush one even before they are even able to run away far enough to avoid it.
Hell, if you use super lerk lift players will be dropping onis as bombs.
Even if im pessimistic or conservative it's up to the devs to decide which idea to include or not, im sure they're able to oversee my comments if they seem out of place regarding the idea. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An onos cloaked or near a sc chamber could get one, perhaps two with devour. but remember that thing about JPs with HMGs? Onos = screwed.
I'm assuming a falling onos would reveal itself in the later versions, and I don't think that two or three marines are going to be dumb enough to let themselves get crushed, considering it would have to be a fairly long ladder for that many to get crushed anyways. Elevators aren't that big of a deal, since most of them don't allow you to jump down below unless you're on top and it's at the bottom. Besides, a little caution and firing a few rounds upwards isn't going to hurt.
So what if one marine is crushed? one's gored anyways, it's an ONOS we're talking about. Then again, if it's a JP, then one dies. Oh no. The onos gets HMG'd directly after.
Super lift shouldn't be able to lift onoses in the first place, in my opinion.
EDIT: Note, the marines will also have new things to counter this, so I don't see why you're complaining!
You bring up JPs constantly but you have also agreed that they barely are effected by onis doing fall damage, so why are you useing them as an example to bring forth this idea? It wont help onis against them.
<!--quoteo(post=1621204:date=Apr 16 2007, 05:32 AM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Apr 16 2007, 05:32 AM) [snapback]1621204[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> No, I have not seen falling elephants. But then again I've never seen something as large as an onos grow from something as small as a skulk in a time period easily measurable in seconds. I certainly encourage realism but you can't say for sure what the onos is made of. I had made a biological fanfiction of the anatomy of the different lifeforms and the only thing that made sense with the numbers was that the aliens did not have calcium carbonate bones. Only a carbon matrix would stand up to those forces. A kind of biologically grown diamond crystal lattice structure to help support the bone tissue. Also let's not forget that if you make a big jump and land with your legs straight and unbent you'll really hurt yourself too. So it stands to reason that we should refect a bending of the knees if the onos takes a fall. Come on now you're just trying to sabotage Ballisto's good idea with silly arguements of things that are just too rare... since when can onii jump that high? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
Easy solution too: Onii have more mass, so gravity's pull is stronger, and can't jump as high as the other classes. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats a good point, the onos could be made up of some as hard or almost as hard as a diamond. Here is an honest question, Can anyone point me to a thread or topic about what a heavy is made up of, specific metal types and so on.....?
I would like to think that in the future, mankind has found stronger metals, or has engineered some kind of composite metal.
Edited: Gravity shouldnt make that much difference to an onos. Maybe the onos crush height should just differ for lights and heavys. Example, little marine can be crushed from an onos just managing to get ontop him, if an onos can get above the heavys head 3 or 4 feet he is pushed to the floor and losses his amor, and if a clever onos manages to get above 4.1 feet, the heavy marine player is squashed into a little metal pancake beneth the behemoth?
I think in the mess of this thread what we are really looking for is a solution to the absolute ownage of a onos vs a JP HMG. This, solution is beating around the bush a little and not adressing the issue as it refers to HA/marine not a JP rine.
I can't think of any other things to help an onos vs a HMG/JP at this stage other than teamwork..
<!--quoteo(post=1621346:date=Apr 16 2007, 08:36 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Apr 16 2007, 08:36 PM) [snapback]1621346[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You bring up JPs constantly but you have also agreed that they barely are effected by onis doing fall damage, so why are you useing them as an example to bring forth this idea? It wont help onis against them. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying this helps onis kill JPs. I'm saying that they should be able to do more damage before death. How biased (in the sense that you don't want to see it) / or just blind are you that you can't even see I don't just talk about JPs?
Anyways, in regards to what glimmerman said, The only other thing that I can think of that could help an onos would be if hitting a Jetpacker as an onos made them go flying off after they're hit if the jetpack is still in use, or they just go flying period and don't fly around all over the place once they're hit.
We've got ragdoll physics! Let's have fun with 'em! I'd love to see a Jetpacker get hit with gore, and so the force of the blow makes him start to spin around, and he starts flying all over the place due to the active JP on his back, taking damage if he hit something, or when he hits the ground after the JP needs to refuel. (Perhaps there could be a way to right yourself as well, but it's still an amusing thought to see a marine go flying around like a deflating balloon.)
Maybe the onos can hit the JP offf <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I think when a Onos jumps/lands on HA, the HA should maybe kneel to the ground, maybe to 1 knee. Then take dmg over time to armor, until the onos gets off.
Maybe add a slide effect so that onos cant stay on the HA for long periods of time. Add a screaming noise to indicate the actuators stressing from the pressure would add to the atmosphere.
A few other tweaks would be smoke, sparks and maybe crushed/exposed parts (ie actuators) would be shown. Maximum armor would be decreased until the specific points would be welded. That means somebody would have to find all the damaged spots and weld them. A progress bar could be shown. The HA could see his suits status with a key that brings up a schematic to tell his teammates what needs repaired. Omg teamwork.
I would love to see HA more like elementals from Battletech or some type of exosuit.
I have absolutely no problem with all moving entities dealing and receiving appropriate amounts of physics damage depending on their mass and velocity when they collide.
A flying onos hitting a marine should hurt both, and the collision would likely knock the marine away, taking extra damage if they hit something else. If they are on the ground and the onos lands on them, then they effectively hit the ground immediately, taking extra damage.
Personally I'd like to see a fully physics enabled onos working like a vehicle: If it gets up enough speed, it can damage things just by running into them.
<!--quoteo(post=1621645:date=Apr 18 2007, 10:22 AM:name=Revenge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Revenge @ Apr 18 2007, 10:22 AM) [snapback]1621645[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I have absolutely no problem with all moving entities dealing and receiving appropriate amounts of physics damage depending on their mass and velocity when they collide.
A flying onos hitting a marine should hurt both, and the collision would likely knock the marine away, taking extra damage if they hit something else. If they are on the ground and the onos lands on them, then they effectively hit the ground immediately, taking extra damage.
Personally I'd like to see a fully physics enabled onos working like a vehicle: If it gets up enough speed, it can damage things just by running into them. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would it hurt an onos to land on something it was going to squish, unless it was a long way down and take damage from that force known as gravity?
In regards to what Warrior said:
An onos should deal all the damage it's going to do at the time of impact. The damage to armor over time doesn't really make sense. I loved the idea of parts on the HA that would have to be welded because of the damage done, however.
That actually gave me a good idea. The Heavy armor should have a changed HUD, showing where his armor was damaged. It would only work if the device wasn't damaged, and it could be placed somewhere, say, on the head of the marine. You're in a huge case of metal armor, right? Maybe the HA could have little things like that built into it. It is, after all, the future.
An onos should deal all the damage it's going to do at the time of impact. The damage to armor over time doesn't really make sense. I loved the idea of parts on the HA that would have to be welded because of the damage done, however.
That actually gave me a good idea. The Heavy armor should have a changed HUD, showing where his armor was damaged. It would only work if it wasn't damaged, and it could be placed somewhere, say, on the head of the marine. You're in a huge case of metal armor, right? Maybe the HA could have little things like that built into it. It is, after all, the future. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My reason for the damage over time is that the armor was straining from the stress. It could be dependant on the amount of force though. I was thinking of a HUD change as well, however I would prefer a key to bring up the status. I hate HUD clutter.
First of all, this is NS2. This uses the Source engine, not the original HL1 engine. Remember that. We <i>need</i> to try new things out and take advantage of the new engine.
<!--quoteo(post=1621265:date=Apr 16 2007, 10:39 AM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Apr 16 2007, 10:39 AM) [snapback]1621265[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It's not Im afraid of new ideas, I've just seen how far people can go to exploit things to the max, especially such things which can turn things around drasticly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is true, yes, but there are many, many ways to tweak things. If you are taht worried about onii jumping on marines, don't let them jump high. Onii are massive, we all seem to agree on that. There is gravity on these maps no? High mass has a higher pull from gravity. Onii should NOT be able to bunnyhop onto marines heads, yeah of course, but there are ways to easily fix and still include this idea.
Everybody is afraid to some degree of new ideas. So don't tell me you aren't at all. <!--quoteo(post=1621265:date=Apr 16 2007, 10:39 AM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Apr 16 2007, 10:39 AM) [snapback]1621265[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even if im pessimistic or conservative it's up to the devs to decide which idea to include or not, im sure they're able to oversee my comments if they seem out of place regarding the idea. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, to be honest I wasn't expecting any humility out of you... I guess my opinion of you has changed some for the better. If you mean well for NS, then please try to allow creativity to shine. I hear your concerns about exploitation and I wish the developers would pay attention to that, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't take adavantage of the Source engine to being new aspects of gameplay to the table. Please accept this idea, even just to try it out. Just like eating a new food: "Never hate it until you try it."
<!--quoteo(post=1621330:date=Apr 16 2007, 03:34 PM:name=Moving_Target0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Moving_Target0 @ Apr 16 2007, 03:34 PM) [snapback]1621330[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I'm assuming a falling onos would reveal itself in the later versions, and I don't think that two or three marines are going to be dumb enough to let themselves get crushed, considering it would have to be a fairly long ladder for that many to get crushed anyways. Elevators aren't that big of a deal, since most of them don't allow you to jump down below unless you're on top and it's at the bottom. Besides, a little caution and firing a few rounds upwards isn't going to hurt.
So what if one marine is crushed? one's gored anyways, it's an ONOS we're talking about. Then again, if it's a JP, then one dies. Oh no. The onos gets HMG'd directly after.
[...]
EDIT: Note, the marines will also have new things to counter this, so I don't see why you're complaining! <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes indeed. Marines aren't that stupid, there are counters and some of which will be all new. Max has already indicated a desire of the NS2 developers to find a unified "style" which could also mean totally new weaponry and upgrades. Many of you are still treating this idea like it'd fit into the orginal NS. Don't forget that there will be new counters for marines too and that the game is in development, a phase when it is extremely flexible.
<!--quoteo(post=1621349:date=Apr 16 2007, 04:43 PM:name=Creedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Creedy @ Apr 16 2007, 04:43 PM) [snapback]1621349[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Can anyone point me to a thread or topic about what a heavy is made up of, specific metal types and so on.....?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wrote most of the scientific aspects fanfiction background, so I'd be bold and say I'm best to tell you. It's a greatly improved, future form of "<a href="http://www.liquidmetalgolf.com/" target="_blank">LiquidMetal</a>" (click link to learn more) -- and before you say it, that's just what it's called, it's not liquid at normal temperatures. Strong heat is it's weakness, but it is very strong, easy to repair, and hence why the protolab selected it. The Kharaa don't have any high heat weaponry or explosives. Of course at the third hive aliens can gain xenocide which of course the computer didn't predict that the lowest lifeform could make such a strong counter. Acid from acid rockets can really cause corrosion problems to...
But what does this mean for the onos? It means that if the Commander can spend the resources on some expensive heavy armor, this armor is strong enough to endure just about any damage. The armor will hold up against a heavy impact of a few atmospheres of pressure but the living marine inside could be stunned or get injuries from the jerk. Whether or not an onos could pin a HA marine is dependent on what we assume the power of the servos are when acting as a disadvantaged 2nd class lever. It's logical in my opinion that with the power provided and needed already by the suit, it motors would just strain and heat up with the onos easily pinning a toppled HA.
Vanilla marines would simply be crushed: vertibrae twisted and snapped, ribs impale and rupture the internal organs, lungs collaspe, legs bent the wrong way as the ligaments go *SNAP!* and the squishy sound of a watermellon being dropped from a height as a skull is crushed and the brain tissue squirts out... with a copious amount of warm, 98.5 degree blood.
<!--quoteo(post=1621532:date=Apr 17 2007, 04:35 PM:name=Moving_Target0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Moving_Target0 @ Apr 17 2007, 04:35 PM) [snapback]1621532[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> We've got ragdoll physics! Let's have fun with 'em! I'd love to see a Jetpacker get hit with gore, and so the force of the blow makes him start to spin around, and he starts flying all over the place due to the active JP on his back, taking damage if he hit something, or when he hits the ground after the JP needs to refuel. (Perhaps there could be a way to right yourself as well, but it's still an amusing thought to see a marine go flying around like a deflating balloon.) <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Hell yes! We need to take advantage of the physics.
<!--quoteo(post=1621614:date=Apr 18 2007, 12:07 AM:name=Warrior)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Warrior @ Apr 18 2007, 12:07 AM) [snapback]1621614[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think when a Onos jumps/lands on HA, the HA should maybe kneel to the ground, maybe to 1 knee. Then take dmg over time to armor, until the onos gets off.
Maybe add a slide effect so that onos cant stay on the HA for long periods of time. Add a screaming noise to indicate the actuators stressing from the pressure would add to the atmosphere.
A few other tweaks would be smoke, sparks and maybe crushed/exposed parts (ie actuators) would be shown. Maximum armor would be decreased until the specific points would be welded. That means somebody would have to find all the damaged spots and weld them. A progress bar could be shown. The HA could see his suits status with a key that brings up a schematic to tell his teammates what needs repaired. Omg teamwork.
I would love to see HA more like elementals from Battletech or some type of exosuit. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->There are a lot of things. I'm not sure which should come first though: form or function. Perhaps some of both. Develope a rough function, create a form, refine function, refine form, etc.
Comments
Marines can, you know, move. Jetpackers would be immune to this unless you're a complete idiot. Really, I think the onos needs another way to attack as it is, he's mostly a large target now. A ramp, as I said before, wouldn't deal as much because the onos didn't fall as far. Besides, does it really matter too much where it lands? either way, it's going to hurt like a thousand rabid skulks gnawing on your gutturals. There are very few places as is that an onos could do substantial damage. Physics should be a part in NS2, it makes things more fun!
If you're going to complain about onos dealing damage with the onos, though, why not complain about devour? It's one hit kill if you're hit by it, and the onos escapes. Hey, and why not try to go further? Suggest rocket launcher turrets that only fire against "onis" so that they're even more useless that before.
I don't think you play much on the aliens, Svenpa, or else you'd know that the onos needs something now since they can be jetpack solo'd. Why not incorporate physics? On the flip side, jetpacking marines could land on skulks and break their backs, or burn them from the exaust!
Summary: If an onos lands on you, you're either going to be screwed anyways, or you can move and be unharmed. This wouldn't be a catastrophic balance issue, and I think it would add a nice touch of realism to NS / NS2.
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Seems like you havnt played aliens alot. Onos got a rather big armor boost in 3.2 and is very hard to solo with jetpack unless the player is blatantly retarded. Im confused why you mention jetpacks at all though since crushing marines wouldn't help the onos against jetpacks who you claim can solo one.
Why complain on a feature which has been in the game even before 2.0 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> it's become pretty balanced by now. Im asking how the onos should deal damage when falling on marines yet you seem to know the answear by default even if it wasnt you who came up with the idea.
What im really complaining about is instant killing onis, devour at least slows the onos down and the marine can still be saved but falling on someone can easely be over exploited since it's a insta one shot kill.
Ladders, ramps, ledges or anything that gives the onos a height advantage can give it the opportunity for a easy insta kill. Throw in cloak and silence in the mix and you have a free effective instant killing feature. Sure jetpacks wont be effected much but heavy armor is more usual and vanillas are always around.
Seems like you havnt played aliens alot. Onos got a rather big armor boost in 3.2 and is very hard to solo with jetpack unless the player is blatantly retarded. Im confused why you mention jetpacks at all though since crushing marines wouldn't help the onos against jetpacks who you claim can solo one.
Why complain on a feature which has been in the game even before 2.0 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> it's become pretty balanced by now. Im asking how the onos should deal damage when falling on marines yet you seem to know the answear by default even if it wasnt you who came up with the idea.
What im really complaining about is instant killing onis, devour at least slows the onos down and the marine can still be saved but falling on someone can easely be over exploited since it's a insta one shot kill.
Ladders, ramps, ledges or anything that gives the onos a height advantage can give it the opportunity for a easy insta kill. Throw in cloak and silence in the mix and you have a free effective instant killing feature. Sure jetpacks wont be effected much but heavy armor is more usual and vanillas are always around.
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Obviously, you haven't tried fighting an onos as a JP in any kind of large room. Too easy...I mentioned JPs because it renders marines near invincible to this attack, as I said before.
I'm not complaining about devour. I was asking if those things were what you were going to ask about next.
Note, I didn't say an instant kill if they have armor. You seem to think it is 100% death rate at any height, as well. I don't know exactly how much damage an onos should do by landing on someone, but it shouldn't be a mere scratch. You try lifting an elephant sometime and get back to me. As I said, in a balanced standpoint, extreme damage from an onos landing on you would be fine, since the onos can kill a marine in a matter of seconds anways. What more will one large hit of damage do? in the long run? Not much. A cloaked, silent onos eating people or goring them with focus is just as effective as this. I don't see what's so bad about it.
The added armour bonous for the onos accounts for nothing when I can just hover above him and rip into his/her/its like no tomorrow.
It's a fact. The onos is too nerfed.
I'm with MT here. I can solo <b>any</b> onos with a jp, a medium sized room and a HMG. it's just that easy!
The added armour bonous for the onos accounts for nothing when I can just hover above him and rip into his/her/its like no tomorrow.
It's a fact. The onos is too nerfed.
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If the onos stays in the same open room during the time it's being shot at I would declare it retarded and not appliable for this idea. NS is mostly built in small corridors with rooms and some exceptionaly large areas, if you move out from one room to the next your often bound to come to someplace smaller.
If the onos stays in the same open room during the time it's being shot at I would declare it retarded and not appliable for this idea. NS is mostly built in small corridors with rooms and some exceptionaly large areas, if you move out from one room to the next your often bound to come to someplace smaller.
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Umm, have you ever noticed that JPs are faster than an onos and can chase them down? Even in corridors, a half-decent player can pwn an onos in a matter of roughly 10 seconds. The onos, simply put, isn't as good as it used to be. A player that gets solo'd by a JP when they're an onos isn't idiotic. He's normal.
Umm, have you ever noticed that JPs are faster than an onos and can chase them down? Even in corridors, a half-decent player can pwn an onos in a matter of roughly 10 seconds. The onos, simply put, isn't as good as it used to be. A player that gets solo'd by a JP when they're an onos isn't idiotic. He's normal.
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Then, again, the onos is double retarded for not useing jump and gore/devour (gore has great range if used combined with jump). Even if the jp is faster he has to jumper over the onos at some point and then the onos can reach him. Dont forget that the aliens is a team, just one leaping skulk can distract the jp or kill him while occupied by shooting the onos.
Then, again, the onos is double retarded for not useing jump and gore/devour (gore has great range if used combined with jump). Even if the jp is faster he has to jumper over the onos at some point and then the onos can reach him. Dont forget that the aliens is a team, just one leaping skulk can distract the jp or kill him while occupied by shooting the onos.
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We're not discussing team battles.
Here's what usually happens in onos vs. JP
*onos enters room from one end, JP from the other.
*onos starts to run from the room. JP starts pumping him full of lead.
*onos gets into the hallway, but is still being shot by the JP.
*onos turns the corner and waits. JP throws grenades.
At this point, it splits.
Situation A:
Onos loses his nerve due to low HP and starts to back off. JP notices this, flies around the corner, and guns him down.
Situation B:
Onos stays put. JP barely goes around the corner to lure him out (on the farthest away side), flies backwards to avoid being eaten/gored, and guns the now exposed onos down.
EDIT: Oh, yeah, might I also add staying in that room with the JP, as you pointed out yourself, is suicide for the onos and a "retarded action".
The Onos dies too easily, especially when confronted with a small handful of marines. Even if the onos encounters 2-3 marines in a hallway, the Onos should come out victorious. What is even more frustrating is that the onos dies in less than a second if it happens to accidentally wander into a group of half of the marine team. The HMGs/shotguns simply tear it up too quickly, not allowing any time to react. The Onos needs SOMETHING to increase its power (such as trampling/crushing).
This is a little off-topic, but the same goes for fades, too. Sure, a l33t fade can pwn the entire rine team without breaking a sweat. But what about an average player? It's too easy for a lone marine to solo a fade, even if the fade blinks right up to the marine and gets the first hit.
Onos best friend is lerks with umbra.
Were not discussing team battle in a team based game?
Onos best friend is lerks with umbra.
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I said a team battle. We were talking about a JP solo'ing an onos, not anything else. On a side note, if it is a 2 v 2, and the lerk umbras the Onos, the lerk will get shot down as well as the onos. Sadly, I think the lerk has the better chance. If it's a 1 v 2, gun the lerk and then the onos. Problem solved. If it's 2 vs. 1 against the onos, you might as well just forget it. You're screwed.
It's like those people who say "1vs1 see whos best", it dosn't work that way, there is a team on the map and the reactions are way to many to calculate. It has been said before, the onos is a siege machine meant to destroy buildings quickly, not a unstoppable player killer.
Onos < JP < skulk,fade,lerk
Onos > HA > skulk,fade,lerk
JPs are just marines with ability to fly, OCs and gas makes them soft and easy kills.
It's very easy to say "then they just shoot x alien" in a discussion like this. But in real game everything would be different. The jps probably would be more score ###### when they see a onos the might not even care about the lerk as it makes them waste precious bullets which could loose them the onos kill.
It's like those people who say "1vs1 see whos best", it dosn't work that way, there is a team on the map and the reactions are way to many to calculate. It has been said before, the onos is a siege machine meant to destroy buildings quickly, not a unstoppable player killer.
Onos < JP < skulk,fade,lerk
Onos > HA > skulk,fade,lerk
JPs are just marines with ability to fly, OCs and gas makes them soft and easy kills.
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It's very easy to say shoot X alien. It's almost easier to do it in game.
I am aware that it doesn't work with 1v1 see who's best. However, HMGs can mow down any life form easily, onos included. That's what we're saying needs a change. Giving onos a slight advantage to JUMP on a marine from a distance to deal damage isn't something that would make a drastic change. Since this thread has gone off topic and it's mainly a debate with you saying it would be imbalanced vs. me who says it's fine (along with supporters), it might as well be locked.
It's very easy to say shoot X alien. It's almost easier to do it in game.
I am aware that it doesn't work with 1v1 see who's best. However, HMGs can mow down any life form easily, onos included. That's what we're saying needs a change. Giving onos a slight advantage to JUMP on a marine from a distance to deal damage isn't something that would make a drastic change. Since this thread has gone off topic and it's mainly a debate with you saying it would be imbalanced vs. me who says it's fine (along with supporters), it might as well be locked.
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Debating a idea is part of I&S not just saying "yes" or "no" to the given idea.
I can see why you want it in but I also foresee massive exploitation.
Debating a idea is part of I&S not just saying "yes" or "no" to the given idea.
I can see why you want it in but I also foresee massive exploitation.
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explain the "exploitation." An onos camping at the top of a ramp can be shot, etc...
My response to glimmerman on the first page, didnt bother to read all the way to page 3 until just now.
Also with all this talk of Falling onoses, have any of you ever stoped and though about the damage it would do to the onos itself? How many of you have ever turned to the animal planet and saw an elephant falling from 8 or 9 feet? (ladder height)
I did some math and this is what i came up with,
If a onos falls of a ladder of 8 feet and takes 2 seconds to hit the ground, the onos will be traveling at 19.6m/s, times that by 2 tons or 4000 bounds and you get 78,400 pounds at impact of the ground, if you divided that by 4 for the number of legs the onos has that will be catching its landing, the force on each leg is 19,600 pounds (at landing).
My question, can the Onoses knee really stand up that amout of force with no damage?
Besides, think - By saying that the armor would be destroyed, things are more balanced. I think we've all seen the Heavy Armor from the outside. The main thing is, The marine would die - bruising, and the impact from falling over that fast and hitting metal. I think saying that the HA is lost is fair enough, since onoses just eat them anyways.
As for normal marines...they're about sunk, but JPs can avoid the onos easily as is.
explain the "exploitation." An onos camping at the top of a ramp can be shot, etc...
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Well said.
Svenpa, tell me of a single time you were for anything useful for the aliens since you have been on this board. Never mind the boosts to marines to counter it. I've just never seen you support ANY alien idea.
First consider the idea for what fun it could bring. Then look at balancing. And when balancing: TAKE THE WHOLE PICTURE INTO ACCOUNT. Like the quote above, marines can shoot. Shoot him first, don't stand there at the base of a ladder with an onos up top. Get a grenade launcher. Use a flamethrower to flush him out. Plenty of other counters I can think of. I think you should read <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=200923054239861216&showtopic=100967" target="_blank">my thread</a> about being afraid of change. And before you say it: BS that you aren't, everybody who likes this game is to some degree. I just ask you to consider the severity of your fear thereby unacceptance of a new idea like this. Open your mind. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1621162:date=Apr 15 2007, 06:09 PM:name=Creedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Creedy @ Apr 15 2007, 06:09 PM) [snapback]1621162[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Think of a heavy as a tank, Its has alot of heavy metal, reinforced frame, and powerful engine. If an elephant rams a tank, the tank may shake for a moment but isnt going to be damaged. I believe the same thing is true about the Heavy armor. With NS 1 you cant tell from your view but have you looked at another marine with the HA on, your just as tall as the onoses, The Heavys are so big it takes hydraulics to make them move. If you were designing a combat suit that needs hydraulics just to move, would you include only the minimum amount or would you make the suit super strong? They heavy is the Hardcore Battle suit, no fat elephant should just be able to crush it, Even if they weight 2-3 tons, Im not saying the Heavy suit should be able to just swat the onos off like a fly, hell he shouldnt even be able to stand up with the onos on him, but he should be able to lye down and wait for his buddies to save him. Besides the Onoses already have stomp and devour to defeat a heavy, they dont need the power to just crush them.
My response to glimmerman on the first page, didnt bother to read all the way to page 3 until just now.
Also with all this talk of Falling onoses, have any of you ever stoped and though about the damage it would do to the onos itself? How many of you have ever turned to the animal planet and saw an elephant falling from 8 or 9 feet? (ladder height)
I did some math and this is what i came up with,
If a onos falls of a ladder of 8 feet and takes 2 seconds to hit the ground, the onos will be traveling at 19.6m/s, times that by 2 tons or 4000 bounds and you get 78,400 pounds at impact of the ground, if you divided that by 4 for the number of legs the onos has that will be catching its landing, the force on each leg is 19,600 pounds (at landing).
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No, I have not seen falling elephants. But then again I've never seen something as large as an onos grow from something as small as a skulk in a time period easily measurable in seconds. I certainly encourage realism but you can't say for sure what the onos is made of. I had made a biological fanfiction of the anatomy of the different lifeforms and the only thing that made sense with the numbers was that the aliens did not have calcium carbonate bones. Only a carbon matrix would stand up to those forces. A kind of biologically grown diamond crystal lattice structure to help support the bone tissue. Also let's not forget that if you make a big jump and land with your legs straight and unbent you'll really hurt yourself too. So it stands to reason that we should refect a bending of the knees if the onos takes a fall.
<!--quoteo(post=1621185:date=Apr 15 2007, 09:45 PM:name=Creedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Creedy @ Apr 15 2007, 09:45 PM) [snapback]1621185[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
So a bunny hopping onos can use charge, jump on a row of heavys, and let the focus fades come and mop them up? gg?
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Come on now you're just trying to sabotage Ballisto's good idea with silly arguements of things that are just too rare... since when can onii jump that high? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
Easy solution too: Onii have more mass, so gravity's pull is stronger, and can't jump as high as the other classes.
It's not Im afraid of new ideas, I've just seen how far people can go to exploit things to the max, especially such things which can turn things around drasticly.
Imagine a onos with cloak, or worse, near a sc chamber, he can stand on anything that gives a hight advantage and jump on a marines head, without revealing himself! Stand near a ladder and as a HA team goes down on it the onos crushes at least one of them, eats one then stomps and gores a third. Also following a onos up a ladder would be suicide every time. Being cloaked ON a ladder would be even worse, the marines goes up the ladder and suddenly the first guy dies (onos remains cloaked) the 2nd or even third would also be simply crushed without much effort. Devestating to anything except jetpacks. Dont forget elevators.
Throw in celerity and ledges/ramps and players will train to jump on marines head, as you know it jumps pretty high but the hitbox under the onos is very big. The marines can be aware too but if the onos just rushes in it can crush one even before they are even able to run away far enough to avoid it.
Hell, if you use super lerk lift players will be dropping onis as bombs.
Even if im pessimistic or conservative it's up to the devs to decide which idea to include or not, im sure they're able to oversee my comments if they seem out of place regarding the idea.
I did give alot of feedback on a new chamber if you have a look on that thread, there was something else too but I cant remember atm, which pretty much everyone liked.
It's not Im afraid of new ideas, I've just seen how far people can go to exploit things to the max, especially such things which can turn things around drasticly.
Imagine a onos with cloak, or worse, near a sc chamber, he can stand on anything that gives a hight advantage and jump on a marines head, without revealing himself! Stand near a ladder and as a HA team goes down on it the onos crushes at least one of them, eats one then stomps and gores a third. Also following a onos up a ladder would be suicide every time. Being cloaked ON a ladder would be even worse, the marines goes up the ladder and suddenly the first guy dies (onos remains cloaked) the 2nd or even third would also be simply crushed without much effort. Devestating to anything except jetpacks. Dont forget elevators.
Throw in celerity and ledges/ramps and players will train to jump on marines head, as you know it jumps pretty high but the hitbox under the onos is very big. The marines can be aware too but if the onos just rushes in it can crush one even before they are even able to run away far enough to avoid it.
Hell, if you use super lerk lift players will be dropping onis as bombs.
Even if im pessimistic or conservative it's up to the devs to decide which idea to include or not, im sure they're able to oversee my comments if they seem out of place regarding the idea.
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An onos cloaked or near a sc chamber could get one, perhaps two with devour. but remember that thing about JPs with HMGs? Onos = screwed.
I'm assuming a falling onos would reveal itself in the later versions, and I don't think that two or three marines are going to be dumb enough to let themselves get crushed, considering it would have to be a fairly long ladder for that many to get crushed anyways. Elevators aren't that big of a deal, since most of them don't allow you to jump down below unless you're on top and it's at the bottom. Besides, a little caution and firing a few rounds upwards isn't going to hurt.
So what if one marine is crushed? one's gored anyways, it's an ONOS we're talking about. Then again, if it's a JP, then one dies. Oh no. The onos gets HMG'd directly after.
Super lift shouldn't be able to lift onoses in the first place, in my opinion.
EDIT: Note, the marines will also have new things to counter this, so I don't see why you're complaining!
No, I have not seen falling elephants. But then again I've never seen something as large as an onos grow from something as small as a skulk in a time period easily measurable in seconds. I certainly encourage realism but you can't say for sure what the onos is made of. I had made a biological fanfiction of the anatomy of the different lifeforms and the only thing that made sense with the numbers was that the aliens did not have calcium carbonate bones. Only a carbon matrix would stand up to those forces. A kind of biologically grown diamond crystal lattice structure to help support the bone tissue. Also let's not forget that if you make a big jump and land with your legs straight and unbent you'll really hurt yourself too. So it stands to reason that we should refect a bending of the knees if the onos takes a fall.
Come on now you're just trying to sabotage Ballisto's good idea with silly arguements of things that are just too rare... since when can onii jump that high? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
Easy solution too: Onii have more mass, so gravity's pull is stronger, and can't jump as high as the other classes.
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Thats a good point, the onos could be made up of some as hard or almost as hard as a diamond. Here is an honest question, Can anyone point me to a thread or topic about what a heavy is made up of, specific metal types and so on.....?
I would like to think that in the future, mankind has found stronger metals, or has engineered some kind of composite metal.
Edited: Gravity shouldnt make that much difference to an onos. Maybe the onos crush height should just differ for lights and heavys. Example, little marine can be crushed from an onos just managing to get ontop him, if an onos can get above the heavys head 3 or 4 feet he is pushed to the floor and losses his amor, and if a clever onos manages to get above 4.1 feet, the heavy marine player is squashed into a little metal pancake beneth the behemoth?
I can't think of any other things to help an onos vs a HMG/JP at this stage other than teamwork..
You bring up JPs constantly but you have also agreed that they barely are effected by onis doing fall damage, so why are you useing them as an example to bring forth this idea? It wont help onis against them.
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I'm not saying this helps onis kill JPs. I'm saying that they should be able to do more damage before death. How biased (in the sense that you don't want to see it) / or just blind are you that you can't even see I don't just talk about JPs?
Anyways, in regards to what glimmerman said, The only other thing that I can think of that could help an onos would be if hitting a Jetpacker as an onos made them go flying off after they're hit if the jetpack is still in use, or they just go flying period and don't fly around all over the place once they're hit.
We've got ragdoll physics! Let's have fun with 'em! I'd love to see a Jetpacker get hit with gore, and so the force of the blow makes him start to spin around, and he starts flying all over the place due to the active JP on his back, taking damage if he hit something, or when he hits the ground after the JP needs to refuel. (Perhaps there could be a way to right yourself as well, but it's still an amusing thought to see a marine go flying around like a deflating balloon.)
Maybe add a slide effect so that onos cant stay on the HA for long periods of time. Add a screaming noise to indicate the actuators stressing from the pressure would add to the atmosphere.
A few other tweaks would be smoke, sparks and maybe crushed/exposed parts (ie actuators) would be shown. Maximum armor would be decreased until the specific points would be welded. That means somebody would have to find all the damaged spots and weld them. A progress bar could be shown. The HA could see his suits status with a key that brings up a schematic to tell his teammates what needs repaired. Omg teamwork.
I would love to see HA more like elementals from Battletech or some type of exosuit.
A flying onos hitting a marine should hurt both, and the collision would likely knock the marine away, taking extra damage if they hit something else. If they are on the ground and the onos lands on them, then they effectively hit the ground immediately, taking extra damage.
Personally I'd like to see a fully physics enabled onos working like a vehicle: If it gets up enough speed, it can damage things just by running into them.
I have absolutely no problem with all moving entities dealing and receiving appropriate amounts of physics damage depending on their mass and velocity when they collide.
A flying onos hitting a marine should hurt both, and the collision would likely knock the marine away, taking extra damage if they hit something else. If they are on the ground and the onos lands on them, then they effectively hit the ground immediately, taking extra damage.
Personally I'd like to see a fully physics enabled onos working like a vehicle: If it gets up enough speed, it can damage things just by running into them.
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Why would it hurt an onos to land on something it was going to squish, unless it was a long way down and take damage from that force known as gravity?
In regards to what Warrior said:
An onos should deal all the damage it's going to do at the time of impact. The damage to armor over time doesn't really make sense. I loved the idea of parts on the HA that would have to be welded because of the damage done, however.
That actually gave me a good idea. The Heavy armor should have a changed HUD, showing where his armor was damaged. It would only work if the device wasn't damaged, and it could be placed somewhere, say, on the head of the marine. You're in a huge case of metal armor, right? Maybe the HA could have little things like that built into it. It is, after all, the future.
Note: Edited for clarity.
In regards to what Warrior said:
An onos should deal all the damage it's going to do at the time of impact. The damage to armor over time doesn't really make sense. I loved the idea of parts on the HA that would have to be welded because of the damage done, however.
That actually gave me a good idea. The Heavy armor should have a changed HUD, showing where his armor was damaged. It would only work if it wasn't damaged, and it could be placed somewhere, say, on the head of the marine. You're in a huge case of metal armor, right? Maybe the HA could have little things like that built into it. It is, after all, the future.
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My reason for the damage over time is that the armor was straining from the stress. It could be dependant on the amount of force though.
I was thinking of a HUD change as well, however I would prefer a key to bring up the status. I hate HUD clutter.
<!--quoteo(post=1621265:date=Apr 16 2007, 10:39 AM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Apr 16 2007, 10:39 AM) [snapback]1621265[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
It's not Im afraid of new ideas, I've just seen how far people can go to exploit things to the max, especially such things which can turn things around drasticly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is true, yes, but there are many, many ways to tweak things. If you are taht worried about onii jumping on marines, don't let them jump high. Onii are massive, we all seem to agree on that. There is gravity on these maps no? High mass has a higher pull from gravity. Onii should NOT be able to bunnyhop onto marines heads, yeah of course, but there are ways to easily fix and still include this idea.
Everybody is afraid to some degree of new ideas. So don't tell me you aren't at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1621265:date=Apr 16 2007, 10:39 AM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Apr 16 2007, 10:39 AM) [snapback]1621265[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even if im pessimistic or conservative it's up to the devs to decide which idea to include or not, im sure they're able to oversee my comments if they seem out of place regarding the idea.
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Wow, to be honest I wasn't expecting any humility out of you... I guess my opinion of you has changed some for the better. If you mean well for NS, then please try to allow creativity to shine. I hear your concerns about exploitation and I wish the developers would pay attention to that, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't take adavantage of the Source engine to being new aspects of gameplay to the table. Please accept this idea, even just to try it out. Just like eating a new food: "Never hate it until you try it."
<!--quoteo(post=1621330:date=Apr 16 2007, 03:34 PM:name=Moving_Target0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Moving_Target0 @ Apr 16 2007, 03:34 PM) [snapback]1621330[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I'm assuming a falling onos would reveal itself in the later versions, and I don't think that two or three marines are going to be dumb enough to let themselves get crushed, considering it would have to be a fairly long ladder for that many to get crushed anyways. Elevators aren't that big of a deal, since most of them don't allow you to jump down below unless you're on top and it's at the bottom. Besides, a little caution and firing a few rounds upwards isn't going to hurt.
So what if one marine is crushed? one's gored anyways, it's an ONOS we're talking about. Then again, if it's a JP, then one dies. Oh no. The onos gets HMG'd directly after.
[...]
EDIT: Note, the marines will also have new things to counter this, so I don't see why you're complaining!
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Yes indeed. Marines aren't that stupid, there are counters and some of which will be all new. Max has already indicated a desire of the NS2 developers to find a unified "style" which could also mean totally new weaponry and upgrades. Many of you are still treating this idea like it'd fit into the orginal NS. Don't forget that there will be new counters for marines too and that the game is in development, a phase when it is extremely flexible.
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Can anyone point me to a thread or topic about what a heavy is made up of, specific metal types and so on.....?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wrote most of the scientific aspects fanfiction background, so I'd be bold and say I'm best to tell you. It's a greatly improved, future form of "<a href="http://www.liquidmetalgolf.com/" target="_blank">LiquidMetal</a>" (click link to learn more) -- and before you say it, that's just what it's called, it's not liquid at normal temperatures. Strong heat is it's weakness, but it is very strong, easy to repair, and hence why the protolab selected it. The Kharaa don't have any high heat weaponry or explosives. Of course at the third hive aliens can gain xenocide which of course the computer didn't predict that the lowest lifeform could make such a strong counter. Acid from acid rockets can really cause corrosion problems to...
But what does this mean for the onos? It means that if the Commander can spend the resources on some expensive heavy armor, this armor is strong enough to endure just about any damage. The armor will hold up against a heavy impact of a few atmospheres of pressure but the living marine inside could be stunned or get injuries from the jerk. Whether or not an onos could pin a HA marine is dependent on what we assume the power of the servos are when acting as a disadvantaged 2nd class lever. It's logical in my opinion that with the power provided and needed already by the suit, it motors would just strain and heat up with the onos easily pinning a toppled HA.
Vanilla marines would simply be crushed: vertibrae twisted and snapped, ribs impale and rupture the internal organs, lungs collaspe, legs bent the wrong way as the ligaments go *SNAP!* and the squishy sound of a watermellon being dropped from a height as a skull is crushed and the brain tissue squirts out... with a copious amount of warm, 98.5 degree blood.
<!--quoteo(post=1621532:date=Apr 17 2007, 04:35 PM:name=Moving_Target0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Moving_Target0 @ Apr 17 2007, 04:35 PM) [snapback]1621532[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
We've got ragdoll physics! Let's have fun with 'em! I'd love to see a Jetpacker get hit with gore, and so the force of the blow makes him start to spin around, and he starts flying all over the place due to the active JP on his back, taking damage if he hit something, or when he hits the ground after the JP needs to refuel. (Perhaps there could be a way to right yourself as well, but it's still an amusing thought to see a marine go flying around like a deflating balloon.)
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Hell yes! We need to take advantage of the physics.
<!--quoteo(post=1621614:date=Apr 18 2007, 12:07 AM:name=Warrior)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Warrior @ Apr 18 2007, 12:07 AM) [snapback]1621614[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I think when a Onos jumps/lands on HA, the HA should maybe kneel to the ground, maybe to 1 knee. Then take dmg over time to armor, until the onos gets off.
Maybe add a slide effect so that onos cant stay on the HA for long periods of time. Add a screaming noise to indicate the actuators stressing from the pressure would add to the atmosphere.
A few other tweaks would be smoke, sparks and maybe crushed/exposed parts (ie actuators) would be shown. Maximum armor would be decreased until the specific points would be welded. That means somebody would have to find all the damaged spots and weld them. A progress bar could be shown. The HA could see his suits status with a key that brings up a schematic to tell his teammates what needs repaired. Omg teamwork.
I would love to see HA more like elementals from Battletech or some type of exosuit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->There are a lot of things. I'm not sure which should come first though: form or function. Perhaps some of both. Develope a rough function, create a form, refine function, refine form, etc.