No, these long games are caused by incompetent commanders with decent marines and unorganized aliens (or at least on large servers that give the marines the advantage) who lock down 2 hives for "safety", refuse to get upgrades before the 5 minute mark, and then let the aliens wander pointlessly about until they either hive rush and fail, and then the commander gets more paranoid and lames up the hive even more instead of dropping shotguns and HMGs for the marines to kill aliens.
That currently causes the majority of games to last more than 25 minutes, and it's retarded. Games that legitimately go over 25 minutes are once in a blue moon.
No, the fact is we shouldn't slow things down. NS, regardless of its "hybrid" of gameplay is still an FPS at heart. And unless you're really into Battlefield and playing those long-###### games, I suggest you get with the FPS crowd and start playing fast and furious gameplay.
1.04's long games were awful hour-long stalemates, almost without exception. NS is far better off without that. These days the games that take ages to finish are the ones that are very closely matched and are actually good games. That sure isn't how it was in 1.04.
when I comm I like to force the game into long but highly double-edged situations, so that theres a lot of action and a lot of swinging before the game ends. Though generally on publics all I get are people who run around aimlessly dying over and over for 20 minutes then blaming me when we lose \o\ public sucks lol
Some people here speak of 1.04 as the "holy grail" of sorts. I was there, I remember those 3-4 hour games. I can honestly say that 9 times out of 10, I would rather have today's expedited 30-45 minute games than these marathon matches that took up the majority of your day and more often than not ended with a server crash because of the ridiculous wall of lame spam and turret farming.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> No, the fact is we shouldn't slow things down. NS, regardless of its "hybrid" of gameplay is still an FPS at heart. And unless you're really into Battlefield and playing those long-###### games, I suggest you get with the FPS crowd and start playing fast and furious gameplay. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hows about this: You stop being such an arrogant jerkoff, and get with the 'reality crowd'; Some people enjoy longer games, in fact, a <i>great deal</i> of people do. Just because you don't, and you have the 'leverage' of the current game run-times behind you, doesn't make their opinions anymore wrong and yours anymore right.
<!--quoteo(post=1615196:date=Mar 17 2007, 06:54 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Mar 17 2007, 06:54 PM) [snapback]1615196[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some people enjoy longer games, in fact, a <i>great deal</i> of people do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1615159:date=Mar 17 2007, 12:43 PM:name=JetJaguar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JetJaguar @ Mar 17 2007, 12:43 PM) [snapback]1615159[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> ".....I have no time to even aim properly."
maybe because you have poor aim? So instead getting better, lets change the game so i don't have to improve, thats a great idea.
It's natural selection, and obviously you're not selected. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oof. My aim is fine, and that's precisely my point. Sure, the fact that I don't play that much anymore and that the community is reducing to an increasingly skilled core doesn't help, but what bothers me are the changes that were made to the gameplay itself. It doesn't matter how good you are, skulks have been made significantly more fragile, that's a fact. Blink has been changed, that's a fact (if it were up to me, I would return to the teleport model).
These are issues I'd like to see reworked in NS2. To me the game (and the playing community) has strayed so far from the "fun era" of NS, that I would rather see it rebuilt from scratch.
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1615165:date=Mar 17 2007, 01:02 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Mar 17 2007, 01:02 PM) [snapback]1615165[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> 1.04's long games were awful hour-long stalemates, almost without exception. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've played many a back and forth (map control changes hands, etc) 1.0x game that was hours long. They usually ended when the marines camped processing and seiged two hives at once.
<!--quoteo(post=1615199:date=Mar 17 2007, 07:01 PM:name=SpaceJesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ Mar 17 2007, 07:01 PM) [snapback]1615199[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Then go play WOW. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I just played a game yesterday where the marines lost control of the map on ns_bast due to very good communication and defensive responses on the aliens team. But because I had worked with the commander to relocate to airlock right off the start we had a choke hold on the map for the entire game. That game we basically had two commanders me and the guy in the chair. Now yes the commander in the chair was somewhat a newbie and had no mic but he did a fantastic job (his name was "redemption fade FTW"). We would do well organized assaults right from the start, and base was defended only by me and my shotgun, welder, and pistol. Now at the same time this alien team was full of experienced players and they were there to quickly counter our attacks in refinery and tram tunnel. It didn't matter where we went, they were there. In the end they trapped us into our base with multiple onii and fades. Yet we had amassed enough resources and I had guided the commander to heavy armor and strategic use of HMG's and two great artillery soldiers: p00funk and Lament. It was brilliant teamwork in defense of our base. A siege to rock their chambers, and when the multiple fades and onii charged they met a terrifying hail of bullets. And when the onii sought to retreat I would order the artillery (the two GL-ers) to fire and the they would die and well as any gorges trying to sneak up to heal. In the end we did die, when a lone fade, Rushakra, managed to get though the line and take out both of our artillery. But we had exacted a heavy toll. In almost two hours of play we had destroyed 10 onii, 3 fades, and 2 hives. Yes, two hives went down to brilliant ninja action only to be countered and brutally crushed (and redropped) by a ###### alien team. But this kept them bouncing in and out of their thrid hive abilities before we had full weapons upgrades with few Heavies. When they did finally seal us off to get the three hives they couldn't stomp our base. But NOT A SINGLE PERSON SAID IT WAS A BORING STALEMATE. Not one. No, in fact several people said it was the most fun they’ve had with the new version yet. Defense isn’t boring. We focus so much on offense I think people forget that. It’s like the hate people have to
At the end of the that game: First alien chamber was SC (why they knew where we were all the time), then MC We got two IPs early with the relocation to airlock, and electrified RT in MS (meaning we had at least 2 or more RT's most of the game until a gorge bile bombed it), advanced armory early, and then phase tech, followed by MT. We rushed weapons and used mines to defend our RT's (effectively). We had two TF's in base, the one I stood on was advanced with seige to the left. We didn't have HA until we were starting to get locked down in base but that was perfect really because that then they tired to gas and umbra us. But then I had traded my shotgun for an HMG and had p00funk with a GL. We kept upgrading our defenses and they kept getting more aggressive and attacking in larger numbers with more higher lifeforms. Redemption fade FTW, p00funk, Rushakra, and I all only had one death when the game ended but everyone else had at LEAST a dozen deaths. In otherwords everyone was destroying, building, killing, and dying at a crazy rate for a NS map. Perhaps that's what made it such a fun game.
In a later game, we located to Station Access Alpha and faced a somewhat similar situation but when but we ninja-ed two hives at the same time. Confusion got the best of the aliens and somehow we pulled that off. They ended up getting eclipsed redropped, but somehow we managed to counter that. I think the electrified and mined RT triad actually is what saved that phasegate after a fade killed the entire squad of three there. The fade's support skulks died to those mines and electrification in otherwords. So we managed to comeback after all. IT IS POSSIBLE. Hard as hell and you have to have nearly flawless teamwork, but it can be done. I really, really wish it wasn't as rare.
It just proves that you can comeback but it's really, really hard. Much harder than in 2.0 and honestly I agree that the games are over too soon. It's fun to build stuff and have it last long enough to mean something. It's the building combined with teamwork in a FPS game that I like NS so much for I think. I feel that's something important to NS being fun.
ChocolateThe Team MascotJoin Date: 2006-10-31Member: 58123Members
Yeah, I've had many games where I commed and it was fun as heck. In version 3.2 I've had atleast 4 or 5 long games, 3 of which i commed. Basically its looking up now if you want longer games, but those are quite rare (and fun).
On example: the map is ns_nancy and i comm (no mic). we go on recap runs, getting about 3 rts, pg in subsector and discover their hive in mother. They get second hive, we get early MT and latter AA. From about 10 minutes to 25 mintues into the game, most of the fighting happens around no name corridor RT. I get level 2 weapons and armour most game, with the whole team HMG/SG/Heavy.
Around 25 minutes on, we fought to take down Port hive, trying to seige 3 times before finally getting it down. Then they redrop the hive and get it up while we try to regroup, secure rts and outposts, and try to get to their main hive. The battle then shifts back to Port hive, getting it down easier the next time. Once we finish killing their hive, we lost our AA for maybe the 3ed time, and go back for mother. At around 45 minutes, we finally pushed them back to their hive with JP's/HA/everything else for a victory.
The point is the same as what the_x5 said, except im the actual comm. What made that game most special was the fact that the commander has time to think; i was strategising (not medspamming or droping rts) all that time, much more than i usually could. The faster games dont let me take my time to do things. Our teams were a little unfair, the aliens did have better players and players with actual coordination (and with mics too). People at the end of the game were saying that it was the best game they've had ever, and not a single person complained. It was one of the best moments I've had in NS for a long time, if anything.
If they were to make a longer version of NS, those are the types of games I would like.
I started during 1.04, and I remember it pretty well. It was a little slower than 3.2, yes, but not that much slower. The main reason it FELT slower was that there were so many stalemates. Between Acid Rocket as a Hive-1 ability and the general new-ness of the population, an awful lot of games devolved into Acid spamming marine start for 15 minutes until either a ninja-PG managed to kill a hive, or aliens remembered to build the 3rd Hive so they could get Bile Bomb.
Yes, every once in awhile you'd get the truly epic games with near-equally balanced teams who change control of hives and map features repeatedly, but those are about as common today as they were then. Only now the epic games are likely to last between 30 and 90 minutes, instead of between 1 hour and 10 hours. But really, expecting players to devote multiple hours to a single game is stretching it anyway. Most players simply aren't going to sit through a 10-hour game. Witness all the anecdotes about 1.04 games where a player would run out of time, leave for work/school/sleep/whatever, and come back hours later to find the same game still going on. Thats not an efficient use of time. Thats not even really an epic game, thats an Epic Stalemate.
So, the core question is, do we want the game to slow down so it takes longer to win? And I propose that each game will take one of only a handful of courses: --Team A is overpowering Team B from early on --Team B is overpowering Team A from early on --Both teams are pretty evenly matched and the game goes back and forth
For the first two situations, slowing the game is counterproductive. Yes, we want some options available to the losing team to attempt a comeback, but we dont want it to take all day for the winning team to end it. The losing team should have to take some risks to turn the game back around, and if the risks dont pay off, the game should end fairly quickly so we can get on to the next one, and start even again. So in these situations we dont WANT a slower game, as all that does is extend a situation that has already been decided.
In the third situation, the game will naturally tend to be longer anyway. These are the games that are actually fun when they run long, but just HOW long do we want them to run? After about 45 minutes I start hitting brain freeze, so I'm pretty happy with the current speed. But ultimately this ones going to be a matter of opinion. However, since the evenly matched epic games tend to be the minority to begin with, extending the game as a whole will tend to extend a lot more poor games than epic games, making it take longer before we can ever GET to an epic game.
Its 3 AM and I think I'm rambling now, so I'm going to get some sleep.
I don't think that the speed is the main problem, but because of RFK, about every single failure of one team will bring victory to the other team. And marines have a great potential of making errors....
To answer your question Cxwf, yes, 30min to 1hr30min is a good target range in my opinion. Why is expecting players to devote that amount of time to a game unrealistic at all? Play a RPG or better yet an MMORPG sometime and get back to me on that. I bet you won't think of that in the same light. It happens all the time. Heck I've played many-a-map in WCIII where games will last an hour or two. If you don't have much time, voila: combat maps. That's why it's nice to have combat in a way. It's harder to argue the case for having games last a bit larger because it's easier to say you want to have quick fun and certain people like to exaggerate. 10 hours? Granted I joined in 2.01, I've never seen a game last that long, ~3 hours was my longest NS game ever and yes there was a comeback to a victory. And what options do we really have for comebacks? Your typical NS game isn't as fun as it used to be because you can usually predict after 8 min (or less >< )who's going to win with high accuracy. That's sad. It should NOT be so predictable. No you don't want to take all day for the winning team to win it, but that's where teamwork comes in. If aliens have good teamwork they can, and do, destroy marine lockdowns. Bile bomb is very poweful if used while your team rushes: they can't fight and weld at the same time. Same goes for marines, but it's even easier in someways because of seiges.
<b>I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is a bit <i>too</i> fast now.</b> A long victory is <i>very</i> rerwarding. You remember it. Heck you remember a good long game you loose as a good fight even though it was frustrating to loose. Many people are getting bored with the quicker games because there's no as much entropy in the gameplay. Talk about static. Your first two scenerios of team A and B are really all there is nowdays. Make one mistake and your team will feel it stongly. One failed rush and you have people saying "gg". Don't even tell me you don't.
And then you have res hoarding (can't say appropiate term because of the damn word filter) on aliens. Resources must get dropped ASAP but that doesn't often happen since people would like to be something other than a skulk or gorge. Again: monotony. And on marines? Heavies and jetpacks usually mean certain death with not a chance in hell of survival because by then they'll have spend the 35? res and 45? secs (or whatever it is) to get motion tracking. Combat is even more ridiculous with MT and SoF only costing one point. What ever happened to stealth?! It doesn't mean anything anymore. Which is why NS isn't going to scare the jeebus out of you anymore. I feel that sneak attacks are rare now.
DRagon sorry but you either need to contribute or shut up. Thank you.
First of all: I see myself as a medium skilled ns player and usually play on Wireplay[UK] or Yo-clan. I played ns for the first time on lan party (I think it was 2.something) - and had very much fun, because the players really acted like a team. I then couldn't play for a very long time because I still had quite much convincing to do in order the get the Internet at home. So I rejoined the fun of ns at 3.0.betaX and since then I play quite often. So I never saw nor played 1.04 but I played on the SEK 2000 server which basically enforce the res system from that version - in order to force more teamplay. To be honest, I like to stick to a vanilla ns 3.2 server instead. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
In my opinion the better games are a result of pretty even skilled teams and not necessarily of game length. A long game in which 1 team all the time has the upper hand but can't really end it is pretty frustrating (I had to experience this once in 3.2b1 on ns_tanith: the alien team needed almost an hour to crush its opponents who only had 1 rts for the most time.) On the other hand, like Cwxf already said, games with evenly matched teams tend to last longer anyway and will be more of a (epic) back and forth battle.
<!--quoteo(post=1615291:date=Mar 18 2007, 11:28 AM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Mar 18 2007, 11:28 AM) [snapback]1615291[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> To answer your question Cxwf, yes, 30min to 1hr30min is a good target range in my opinion. Why is expecting players to devote that amount of time to a game unrealistic at all? Play a RPG or better yet an MMORPG sometime and get back to me on that. I bet you won't think of that in the same light. It happens all the time. Heck I've played many-a-map in WCIII where games will last an hour or two... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe that comparing a shooter/RTS combo game to a completely different genre doesn't quite work: In an RPG or MMORPG the game doesn't have this defined ends between different games. For example, a typical ns/wcIII/cs game will end in approximately 20 to 30 min ([1]). In comparison a RPG or MMORPG (like Gothic, Morrowind, WoW or GW) doesn't end at all. The player usually can play the game any amount of time and would still have something useful to do. A game of these genres doesn't end with a boss run, a quest or farming.
In my opinion the problem of ns isn't the game length, it is the balance of the teams (meaning the skill of the players). I would really like a system like Blizzard's AMM (Anonymous Matchmaking - which basically searches for (a) evenly skilled opponent(s)) but to be honest I don't see that coming.
Regarding 3.2: I think it is the most balanced _and_ funny version of ns I have ever played. Thanks for the funny time. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
[1]: These 1 to 2 hour games in wcIII of yours, in which game type (1on1, 2on2, custom, ...) did you have them? My experience with this game is that a 1on1 game would be over after an average of 17 min (I have played around 800 games on Battle.net). Yeah, sometimes there are those long games (the longest I had was 42 min or so), but the usually aren't that much fun, because in the end there isn't much action anymore, and are the rare exception.
i loved being gorge in 1.04, at least i could be more strategic in my ocs and then someone would die to them.. now im lucky if a marine passes one of my ocs <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> that makes me a sad useless gorgey <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
i loved it when games took 2 hrs or so.. now im lucky if it lasts 40 mins <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
That's definetely true Kylie. Nowadays gorges get reemed out by their team for dropping OCs, because quite frankly that res could almost always be spent on something better. OCs used to be much more important for map control but I don't know if that is because NS has changed or just way we play it has changed.
<!--quoteo(post=1615361:date=Mar 18 2007, 12:28 PM:name=Ansjovis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ansjovis @ Mar 18 2007, 12:28 PM) [snapback]1615361[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> are you guys seriously rather shooting oc's than aliens? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No I think we're just saying that when OCs were more attactive it extended games and I think added a bit more strategy element to the alien side.
I remember res flow used to be very different for aliens back then. Didn't gorges get more than the other life forms? I just seem to remember them having a lot of res to spare hence the walls of lame. As it stands now marines are really the only ones that lock areas down. I guess aliens are meant to be more mobile so that does make sense but it certainly shortens the games.
<!--quoteo(post=1615308:date=Mar 18 2007, 06:26 AM:name=draugdel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(draugdel @ Mar 18 2007, 06:26 AM) [snapback]1615308[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> [1]: These 1 to 2 hour games in wcIII of yours, in which game type (1on1, 2on2, custom, ...) did you have them? My experience with this game is that a 1on1 game would be over after an average of 17 min (I have played around 800 games on Battle.net). Yeah, sometimes there are those long games (the longest I had was 42 min or so), but the usually aren't that much fun, because in the end there isn't much action anymore, and are the rare exception. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be the DotA custom mode, which is more popular than all other custom maps <i>combined</i>, is more popular than vanilla WCIII, and has no less than <a href="http://www.caleague.com/?league=WC3&division=" target="_blank">6 different divisions</a> in CAL. DotA games last usually between 40 and 75 minutes each, although unlike NS if people leave mid-game, you cant have new people join to take over, so they often peter out early just because too many players dropped.
<!--quoteo(post=1615336:date=Mar 19 2007, 01:02 AM:name=KainTSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KainTSA @ Mar 19 2007, 01:02 AM) [snapback]1615336[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> That's definetely true Kylie. Nowadays gorges get reemed out by their team for dropping OCs, because quite frankly that res could almost always be spent on something better. OCs used to be much more important for map control but I don't know if that is because NS has changed or just way we play it has changed. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly.. I went back to playing vanilla ns, i went gorge, and i begun to do what i always did, build up defences and hold a perimeter around the hive... I got flamed by ppl going "whos building ocs!WTH dont build them!" of course, i ignored them, and because i ignored them i was able to hold off marines from a hive with ocs on my own and healspray... ppl dont give gorges enough recognition.. we won that game. It couldve been a dif story if i hadnt held marines off with ocs while aliens were too busy running around.
i believe oc's play a very big role in territory and gameplay. They dont only act as a defence, they also act as a deterrent. A signle marine wouldnt be stupid to try and take out 2 ocs on his own, and 5 times out of 6 they will move to a different area.
sure 10 res.. but that 10 res is being contributed to help defend the hive and key res node areas, the games go so quickly because noone takes the time to defend anything, a marine can run up to a res node, knife it and place his.. and so on..
the reason 1.04 was so long in games is because in 1.04 marines and aliens both used defensive structures around res nodes and in their base area.
i used to run to a res node in 1.04 capped by a marine with a tf and 3 turrets around... not anymore, half the time they dont even use the electrified tf either.
i preffered the gameplay and teamwork which used to be in ns. there is still some teamwork, but not as much.. Like when gorges were saving for a hive, you used to have 2 or 3 skulks defending the perimeter.. I havent seen that happen in ages, and often its the gorge sitting in a hiding hole hoping no marine will arrive.
the res flow in gorges in the other ns versions was better too. where you earned more res as a gorge.. i dont think that works now because it takes ages to get res most times <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> sorta sucks as gorges are meant to be builders so recources should flow a little faster to them.
ChocolateThe Team MascotJoin Date: 2006-10-31Member: 58123Members
edited March 2007
The way i see it is that OC spamming isn't technically a bad thing. The spamming part is bad, but having no static defenses isnt really much different in terms of badness. Take the game Starcraft for example, how many times when you play as Terrans do you not build bunkers in your base? How many times do you not put Photon Cannons or Spore Colonies in your base? How often (atleast in later games) do you not have atleast some Wraiths or other units patrolling your borders?
What I'm trying to say is that static defenses are good, because it requires teamwork, planning and working in groups to take down that oh so critical base. Last I checked, those were some of the focuses of NS, or atleast in my mind. While you are gaining time because ninja PG's and rambo's don't work so well, you gain in the fact that you need to work together as 1 to succeed, not one individual person can make a team and having funner games.
Now when I play NS, I often see everyone on my team rambo, maybe about 40% of the time I'm with a group, and thats usually when we take down a hive or go on early game capping runs. I see very often 1 guy goes near their hive, sets up a PG, a beacon fires off, and the whole team rushes in for a swift killing of the hive and a literally immediate GG. Not saying moments like those are bad, but the immediate GG part is.
When swift things like that happens I dont really feel that I've accomplished anything extraordinary or special. I feel that I've just exploited 1 weakness, and boom, I win. Games on NS seem to be like that these days, 1 mistake, end game. In my oppinion, it shouldn't be like that, a alien team who loses 2ed hive should be able to get another hive up atleast unless they are completly and utterly locked down, or be able to do something to the marines besides a scratch. A marine team who loses their PG at the middle of the map should be able to get back onto their feet and take back that PG or something like that.
I'm going to cut my rambling now and make a conclusion. OC's walls aren't very bad, they stop rambo's, bring back some teamwork and force you to take an alternate, slower route, siege the place out or have most of you men take it out. OC walls in every hallway is a little too extreme I admit, but thats not what I'm trying to promote.
Now that i think of it, siege maps give an example of this teamwork stuff, but too a too extreme degree. Most of the conflict happens around 1 spot, there is some opportunity for some run away fade to get behind the lines and kill their rts. The only problem is that their is way too much focused fighting, spamming of everything on siege maps and hard to get past enemy defenses.
(back on track) I personally think those games where you really need to think through whats happening and work together are the funner games. Thats why I stand behind Haze, the_x5, kyilegirl and whoever supports this too.
Now i'm tired of typing about OC's and I'm pretty sure this will be flamed at alot. Probably some of this doesn't make sense, I'm speaking from my point of view. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Defense is fun. It's just different than offense. I think part of what has changed is how we play NS in general now, we all rush as fast as we can go and never build defenses. Though good of use of chambers, electrification, and mines are soo powerful. Heck some of the best use of chambers and mines I see nowdays seems to be in combat servers with /buildmenu. Yet I know it's not that you all don't know how to use this stuff effectively.
So what is it then?
First, I feel it's stupid people who yell at others for dropping a sensory or electrifying an RT are screwing things up. In fact I heard one guy who was a decent player (but a complete jerk) start screaming, literally at a commander for electrifying a RT somewhat near marine base. And yet all he did was ask for a shotgun so he could go rambo? And people who drop SC or DC at the first hive are also criticized by stupid players who honestly suck at anything other than MC. SoF and Focus are extremely powerful if you know how to use them. Ever head of a focus gorge? Believe it or not I mentioned that in a game recently and only ONE person knew what it was, let alone how powerful a good focus gorge early on could be. Defense and variation are good. If nothing else it makes the game interesting and makes your enemies have to adapt.
Second, I feel much of the player base is horribly rude and hostile towards newbies. This is a huge problem which admins are completely ignoring on large NS servers. <BAD>, [I AM], G4B2S, KcK, etc. You never do anything about cracking down on players not being tolerant to newbies. This is destroying our community just as much in my opinion as any balance issue, if not more.
Third, I feel that MT and SoF are waaaay too accessible in Combat. One point? That's it? It would like to see some servers disabling it altogether. It would make the game far more interesting and suprising. To bad we choose not to give an option to admins to turn that on/off. (or if it exists I've never heard of it)
Fourth, I feel there is NO tolerance for errors anymore. Loosing one fade is highly damaging to aliens. Failed hive rush? Game over man, game over! If games lasted longer you could see both teams making mistakes and comebacks. But... Because they are so fast now... one mistake is usually game over.
That's my heartfelt feeling about the current NS, really. Those four points are critical ones in my mind. It just suck that not enough people seem care. Lurkers come out and speak please. I can see you reading these forums.
Comments
maybe because you have poor aim?
So instead getting better, lets change the game so i don't have to improve, thats a great idea.
It's natural selection, and obviously you're not selected.
That currently causes the majority of games to last more than 25 minutes, and it's retarded. Games that legitimately go over 25 minutes are once in a blue moon.
No, the fact is we shouldn't slow things down. NS, regardless of its "hybrid" of gameplay is still an FPS at heart. And unless you're really into Battlefield and playing those long-###### games, I suggest you get with the FPS crowd and start playing fast and furious gameplay.
Hows about this: You stop being such an arrogant jerkoff, and get with the 'reality crowd'; Some people enjoy longer games, in fact, a <i>great deal</i> of people do. Just because you don't, and you have the 'leverage' of the current game run-times behind you, doesn't make their opinions anymore wrong and yours anymore right.
Then go play WOW.
".....I have no time to even aim properly."
maybe because you have poor aim?
So instead getting better, lets change the game so i don't have to improve, thats a great idea.
It's natural selection, and obviously you're not selected.
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Oof. My aim is fine, and that's precisely my point. Sure, the fact that I don't play that much anymore and that the community is reducing to an increasingly skilled core doesn't help, but what bothers me are the changes that were made to the gameplay itself. It doesn't matter how good you are, skulks have been made significantly more fragile, that's a fact. Blink has been changed, that's a fact (if it were up to me, I would return to the teleport model).
These are issues I'd like to see reworked in NS2. To me the game (and the playing community) has strayed so far from the "fun era" of NS, that I would rather see it rebuilt from scratch.
1.04's long games were awful hour-long stalemates, almost without exception. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've played many a back and forth (map control changes hands, etc) 1.0x game that was hours long.
They usually ended when the marines camped processing and seiged two hives at once.
man I love old ns.
Then go play WOW.
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Or provide feedback.
At the end of the that game:
First alien chamber was SC (why they knew where we were all the time), then MC
We got two IPs early with the relocation to airlock, and electrified RT in MS (meaning we had at least 2 or more RT's most of the game until a gorge bile bombed it), advanced armory early, and then phase tech, followed by MT. We rushed weapons and used mines to defend our RT's (effectively). We had two TF's in base, the one I stood on was advanced with seige to the left. We didn't have HA until we were starting to get locked down in base but that was perfect really because that then they tired to gas and umbra us. But then I had traded my shotgun for an HMG and had p00funk with a GL. We kept upgrading our defenses and they kept getting more aggressive and attacking in larger numbers with more higher lifeforms. Redemption fade FTW, p00funk, Rushakra, and I all only had one death when the game ended but everyone else had at LEAST a dozen deaths. In otherwords everyone was destroying, building, killing, and dying at a crazy rate for a NS map. Perhaps that's what made it such a fun game.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
In a later game, we located to Station Access Alpha and faced a somewhat similar situation but when but we ninja-ed two hives at the same time. Confusion got the best of the aliens and somehow we pulled that off. They ended up getting eclipsed redropped, but somehow we managed to counter that. I think the electrified and mined RT triad actually is what saved that phasegate after a fade killed the entire squad of three there. The fade's support skulks died to those mines and electrification in otherwords. So we managed to comeback after all. IT IS POSSIBLE. Hard as hell and you have to have nearly flawless teamwork, but it can be done. I really, really wish it wasn't as rare.
It just proves that you can comeback but it's really, really hard. Much harder than in 2.0 and honestly I agree that the games are over too soon. It's fun to build stuff and have it last long enough to mean something. It's the building combined with teamwork in a FPS game that I like NS so much for I think. I feel that's something important to NS being fun.
On example: the map is ns_nancy and i comm (no mic). we go on recap runs, getting about 3 rts, pg in subsector and discover their hive in mother. They get second hive, we get early MT and latter AA. From about 10 minutes to 25 mintues into the game, most of the fighting happens around no name corridor RT. I get level 2 weapons and armour most game, with the whole team HMG/SG/Heavy.
Around 25 minutes on, we fought to take down Port hive, trying to seige 3 times before finally getting it down. Then they redrop the hive and get it up while we try to regroup, secure rts and outposts, and try to get to their main hive. The battle then shifts back to Port hive, getting it down easier the next time. Once we finish killing their hive, we lost our AA for maybe the 3ed time, and go back for mother. At around 45 minutes, we finally pushed them back to their hive with JP's/HA/everything else for a victory.
The point is the same as what the_x5 said, except im the actual comm. What made that game most special was the fact that the commander has time to think; i was strategising (not medspamming or droping rts) all that time, much more than i usually could. The faster games dont let me take my time to do things. Our teams were a little unfair, the aliens did have better players and players with actual coordination (and with mics too). People at the end of the game were saying that it was the best game they've had ever, and not a single person complained. It was one of the best moments I've had in NS for a long time, if anything.
If they were to make a longer version of NS, those are the types of games I would like.
Yes, every once in awhile you'd get the truly epic games with near-equally balanced teams who change control of hives and map features repeatedly, but those are about as common today as they were then. Only now the epic games are likely to last between 30 and 90 minutes, instead of between 1 hour and 10 hours. But really, expecting players to devote multiple hours to a single game is stretching it anyway. Most players simply aren't going to sit through a 10-hour game. Witness all the anecdotes about 1.04 games where a player would run out of time, leave for work/school/sleep/whatever, and come back hours later to find the same game still going on. Thats not an efficient use of time. Thats not even really an epic game, thats an Epic Stalemate.
So, the core question is, do we want the game to slow down so it takes longer to win? And I propose that each game will take one of only a handful of courses:
--Team A is overpowering Team B from early on
--Team B is overpowering Team A from early on
--Both teams are pretty evenly matched and the game goes back and forth
For the first two situations, slowing the game is counterproductive. Yes, we want some options available to the losing team to attempt a comeback, but we dont want it to take all day for the winning team to end it. The losing team should have to take some risks to turn the game back around, and if the risks dont pay off, the game should end fairly quickly so we can get on to the next one, and start even again. So in these situations we dont WANT a slower game, as all that does is extend a situation that has already been decided.
In the third situation, the game will naturally tend to be longer anyway. These are the games that are actually fun when they run long, but just HOW long do we want them to run? After about 45 minutes I start hitting brain freeze, so I'm pretty happy with the current speed. But ultimately this ones going to be a matter of opinion. However, since the evenly matched epic games tend to be the minority to begin with, extending the game as a whole will tend to extend a lot more poor games than epic games, making it take longer before we can ever GET to an epic game.
Its 3 AM and I think I'm rambling now, so I'm going to get some sleep.
Maybe that's the point: No room for mistakes.
<b>I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is a bit <i>too</i> fast now.</b> A long victory is <i>very</i> rerwarding. You remember it. Heck you remember a good long game you loose as a good fight even though it was frustrating to loose. Many people are getting bored with the quicker games because there's no as much entropy in the gameplay. Talk about static. Your first two scenerios of team A and B are really all there is nowdays. Make one mistake and your team will feel it stongly. One failed rush and you have people saying "gg". Don't even tell me you don't.
And then you have res hoarding (can't say appropiate term because of the damn word filter) on aliens. Resources must get dropped ASAP but that doesn't often happen since people would like to be something other than a skulk or gorge. Again: monotony. And on marines? Heavies and jetpacks usually mean certain death with not a chance in hell of survival because by then they'll have spend the 35? res and 45? secs (or whatever it is) to get motion tracking. Combat is even more ridiculous with MT and SoF only costing one point. What ever happened to stealth?! It doesn't mean anything anymore. Which is why NS isn't going to scare the jeebus out of you anymore. I feel that sneak attacks are rare now.
DRagon sorry but you either need to contribute or shut up. Thank you.
In my opinion the better games are a result of pretty even skilled teams and not necessarily of game length. A long game in which 1 team all the time has the upper hand but can't really end it is pretty frustrating (I had to experience this once in 3.2b1 on ns_tanith: the alien team needed almost an hour to crush its opponents who only had 1 rts for the most time.) On the other hand, like Cwxf already said, games with evenly matched teams tend to last longer anyway and will be more of a (epic) back and forth battle.
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To answer your question Cxwf, yes, 30min to 1hr30min is a good target range in my opinion. Why is expecting players to devote that amount of time to a game unrealistic at all? Play a RPG or better yet an MMORPG sometime and get back to me on that. I bet you won't think of that in the same light. It happens all the time. Heck I've played many-a-map in WCIII where games will last an hour or two...
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I believe that comparing a shooter/RTS combo game to a completely different genre doesn't quite work: In an RPG or MMORPG the game doesn't have this defined ends between different games. For example, a typical ns/wcIII/cs game will end in approximately 20 to 30 min ([1]). In comparison a RPG or MMORPG (like Gothic, Morrowind, WoW or GW) doesn't end at all. The player usually can play the game any amount of time and would still have something useful to do. A game of these genres doesn't end with a boss run, a quest or farming.
In my opinion the problem of ns isn't the game length, it is the balance of the teams (meaning the skill of the players). I would really like a system like Blizzard's AMM (Anonymous Matchmaking - which basically searches for (a) evenly skilled opponent(s)) but to be honest I don't see that coming.
Regarding 3.2: I think it is the most balanced _and_ funny version of ns I have ever played. Thanks for the funny time. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
[1]: These 1 to 2 hour games in wcIII of yours, in which game type (1on1, 2on2, custom, ...) did you have them? My experience with this game is that a 1on1 game would be over after an average of 17 min (I have played around 800 games on Battle.net). Yeah, sometimes there are those long games (the longest I had was 42 min or so), but the usually aren't that much fun, because in the end there isn't much action anymore, and are the rare exception.
i loved being gorge in 1.04, at least i could be more strategic in my ocs and then someone would die to them.. now im lucky if a marine passes one of my ocs <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> that makes me a sad useless gorgey <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
i loved it when games took 2 hrs or so.. now im lucky if it lasts 40 mins <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
are you guys seriously rather shooting oc's than aliens?
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No I think we're just saying that when OCs were more attactive it extended games and I think added a bit more strategy element to the alien side.
I remember res flow used to be very different for aliens back then. Didn't gorges get more than the other life forms? I just seem to remember them having a lot of res to spare hence the walls of lame. As it stands now marines are really the only ones that lock areas down. I guess aliens are meant to be more mobile so that does make sense but it certainly shortens the games.
"1.04 had long games ..... bring back OC spam"
baaaaaaaaaad idea.
[1]: These 1 to 2 hour games in wcIII of yours, in which game type (1on1, 2on2, custom, ...) did you have them? My experience with this game is that a 1on1 game would be over after an average of 17 min (I have played around 800 games on Battle.net). Yeah, sometimes there are those long games (the longest I had was 42 min or so), but the usually aren't that much fun, because in the end there isn't much action anymore, and are the rare exception.
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That would be the DotA custom mode, which is more popular than all other custom maps <i>combined</i>, is more popular than vanilla WCIII, and has no less than <a href="http://www.caleague.com/?league=WC3&division=" target="_blank">6 different divisions</a> in CAL. DotA games last usually between 40 and 75 minutes each, although unlike NS if people leave mid-game, you cant have new people join to take over, so they often peter out early just because too many players dropped.
That's definetely true Kylie. Nowadays gorges get reemed out by their team for dropping OCs, because quite frankly that res could almost always be spent on something better. OCs used to be much more important for map control but I don't know if that is because NS has changed or just way we play it has changed.
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exactly.. I went back to playing vanilla ns, i went gorge, and i begun to do what i always did, build up defences and hold a perimeter around the hive... I got flamed by ppl going "whos building ocs!WTH dont build them!"
of course, i ignored them, and because i ignored them i was able to hold off marines from a hive with ocs on my own and healspray... ppl dont give gorges enough recognition.. we won that game. It couldve been a dif story if i hadnt held marines off with ocs while aliens were too busy running around.
i believe oc's play a very big role in territory and gameplay. They dont only act as a defence, they also act as a deterrent. A signle marine wouldnt be stupid to try and take out 2 ocs on his own, and 5 times out of 6 they will move to a different area.
sure 10 res.. but that 10 res is being contributed to help defend the hive and key res node areas, the games go so quickly because noone takes the time to defend anything, a marine can run up to a res node, knife it and place his.. and so on..
the reason 1.04 was so long in games is because in 1.04 marines and aliens both used defensive structures around res nodes and in their base area.
i used to run to a res node in 1.04 capped by a marine with a tf and 3 turrets around... not anymore, half the time they dont even use the electrified tf either.
i preffered the gameplay and teamwork which used to be in ns. there is still some teamwork, but not as much.. Like when gorges were saving for a hive, you used to have 2 or 3 skulks defending the perimeter.. I havent seen that happen in ages, and often its the gorge sitting in a hiding hole hoping no marine will arrive.
the res flow in gorges in the other ns versions was better too. where you earned more res as a gorge.. i dont think that works now because it takes ages to get res most times <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> sorta sucks as gorges are meant to be builders so recources should flow a little faster to them.
What I'm trying to say is that static defenses are good, because it requires teamwork, planning and working in groups to take down that oh so critical base. Last I checked, those were some of the focuses of NS, or atleast in my mind. While you are gaining time because ninja PG's and rambo's don't work so well, you gain in the fact that you need to work together as 1 to succeed, not one individual person can make a team and having funner games.
Now when I play NS, I often see everyone on my team rambo, maybe about 40% of the time I'm with a group, and thats usually when we take down a hive or go on early game capping runs. I see very often 1 guy goes near their hive, sets up a PG, a beacon fires off, and the whole team rushes in for a swift killing of the hive and a literally immediate GG. Not saying moments like those are bad, but the immediate GG part is.
When swift things like that happens I dont really feel that I've accomplished anything extraordinary or special. I feel that I've just exploited 1 weakness, and boom, I win. Games on NS seem to be like that these days, 1 mistake, end game. In my oppinion, it shouldn't be like that, a alien team who loses 2ed hive should be able to get another hive up atleast unless they are completly and utterly locked down, or be able to do something to the marines besides a scratch. A marine team who loses their PG at the middle of the map should be able to get back onto their feet and take back that PG or something like that.
I'm going to cut my rambling now and make a conclusion. OC's walls aren't very bad, they stop rambo's, bring back some teamwork and force you to take an alternate, slower route, siege the place out or have most of you men take it out. OC walls in every hallway is a little too extreme I admit, but thats not what I'm trying to promote.
Now that i think of it, siege maps give an example of this teamwork stuff, but too a too extreme degree. Most of the conflict happens around 1 spot, there is some opportunity for some run away fade to get behind the lines and kill their rts. The only problem is that their is way too much focused fighting, spamming of everything on siege maps and hard to get past enemy defenses.
(back on track) I personally think those games where you really need to think through whats happening and work together are the funner games. Thats why I stand behind Haze, the_x5, kyilegirl and whoever supports this too.
Now i'm tired of typing about OC's and I'm pretty sure this will be flamed at alot. Probably some of this doesn't make sense, I'm speaking from my point of view. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Yours truly, Chocolate.
So what is it then?
First, I feel it's stupid people who yell at others for dropping a sensory or electrifying an RT are screwing things up. In fact I heard one guy who was a decent player (but a complete jerk) start screaming, literally at a commander for electrifying a RT somewhat near marine base. And yet all he did was ask for a shotgun so he could go rambo? And people who drop SC or DC at the first hive are also criticized by stupid players who honestly suck at anything other than MC. SoF and Focus are extremely powerful if you know how to use them. Ever head of a focus gorge? Believe it or not I mentioned that in a game recently and only ONE person knew what it was, let alone how powerful a good focus gorge early on could be. Defense and variation are good. If nothing else it makes the game interesting and makes your enemies have to adapt.
Second, I feel much of the player base is horribly rude and hostile towards newbies. This is a huge problem which admins are completely ignoring on large NS servers. <BAD>, [I AM], G4B2S, KcK, etc. You never do anything about cracking down on players not being tolerant to newbies. This is destroying our community just as much in my opinion as any balance issue, if not more.
Third, I feel that MT and SoF are waaaay too accessible in Combat. One point? That's it? It would like to see some servers disabling it altogether. It would make the game far more interesting and suprising. To bad we choose not to give an option to admins to turn that on/off. (or if it exists I've never heard of it)
Fourth, I feel there is NO tolerance for errors anymore. Loosing one fade is highly damaging to aliens. Failed hive rush? Game over man, game over! If games lasted longer you could see both teams making mistakes and comebacks. But... Because they are so fast now... one mistake is usually game over.
That's my heartfelt feeling about the current NS, really. Those four points are critical ones in my mind. It just suck that not enough people seem care. Lurkers come out and speak please. I can see you reading these forums.