Can't we slow things down?
Haze
O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">>.>;</div>I know, I'm another jaded 1.04 player. I probably always will be, because I never witnessed the biggest flaw within 1.04's build - jetpack/HMG rush, because I played on readyroom, where there was a 'ban' on jp/hmg rushing and the jetpacks were nerfed.
Anyways.
I think that in its current version, NS for me is only merely fun. By the time the game starts, and I begin wandering around a map, building two RTs, the game is already over. I don't even get to see the rest of the map: its incredibly fast.
I also realize that Flayra's vision of the game is as close as it will get with the tools he currently holds with a half life mod, and that it would differ from my own - he specifically said, when the changes to 2.0 were made, that he wanted a faster game. He didn't want games to last for four hours, he wanted them to last for fifteen minutes.
If I could only make one suggestion, it would be this: Let us have a 'slow' mode. I don't know how it would be achieved. Make things more expensive, slow the res flow, do *something*, but let the game take four hours again. I honestly believe thats what gave it the best feel for me, was being able to actually witness changes being made to the area I play in. Oh, they have one hive now, oh, two now, different lifeforms are coming available and we're probably going to get boned pretty soon. It was just those distinct <b>shifts</b> you felt in gameplay, or the fact that you could wander around and actually feel like territory was yours, it would shift hands.
I know this is a rambling, but my one guess, if I could make it, is that I'm not the only 1.04 jaded player here. I'm not the only person who enjoyed the long, drawn out games with slow but very distinct changes made throughout that were noticeable. Every NS game I play right now feels like bleh - theres so much happening and its happening so fast, that its all one identical blur one after the other.
Why can't the game take an hour to play? Why can't the game feel different and feel as though you're actually working with strategy towards a goal (I realize this is probably a personal perspective, so... you can disregard that question ;p)? Why is a side not allowed to recover after a mistake? All I see is that once the marines get to a certain tech point, and if they're not getting bullied into a corner, they'll win. Why can't the aliens fight back? Why is it that if the marines tech to heavy armor/jetpacks, but then lose all of their equipment in one attack, they typically lose if a rush follows soon after, unable to recover from their mistake? Where was the back and fourth slugging war I used to look forward to, but now I play one game where its just who can get their haymaker punch in first.
This is just a rambling. It certainly is. I just have one more question:
Can we PLEASE have just ONE topic that doesnt turn into a complete flame war where we discuss 1.04 vs current versions? Why is that so hard to obtain? Doesn't anyone think that, as jaded and stupid and forgetful as those who enjoyed 1.04 might be, that they have one piece of information that isn't forgotten, that isn't flawed and that actually could be enjoyed by current players? Isn't this a valuable piece of feedback for developers, especially on the footsteps of NS2's creation?
So don't bite eachothers heads off. I apologize for a stupidly long post, but, just.. talk. And don't flame. ><;
Anyways.
I think that in its current version, NS for me is only merely fun. By the time the game starts, and I begin wandering around a map, building two RTs, the game is already over. I don't even get to see the rest of the map: its incredibly fast.
I also realize that Flayra's vision of the game is as close as it will get with the tools he currently holds with a half life mod, and that it would differ from my own - he specifically said, when the changes to 2.0 were made, that he wanted a faster game. He didn't want games to last for four hours, he wanted them to last for fifteen minutes.
If I could only make one suggestion, it would be this: Let us have a 'slow' mode. I don't know how it would be achieved. Make things more expensive, slow the res flow, do *something*, but let the game take four hours again. I honestly believe thats what gave it the best feel for me, was being able to actually witness changes being made to the area I play in. Oh, they have one hive now, oh, two now, different lifeforms are coming available and we're probably going to get boned pretty soon. It was just those distinct <b>shifts</b> you felt in gameplay, or the fact that you could wander around and actually feel like territory was yours, it would shift hands.
I know this is a rambling, but my one guess, if I could make it, is that I'm not the only 1.04 jaded player here. I'm not the only person who enjoyed the long, drawn out games with slow but very distinct changes made throughout that were noticeable. Every NS game I play right now feels like bleh - theres so much happening and its happening so fast, that its all one identical blur one after the other.
Why can't the game take an hour to play? Why can't the game feel different and feel as though you're actually working with strategy towards a goal (I realize this is probably a personal perspective, so... you can disregard that question ;p)? Why is a side not allowed to recover after a mistake? All I see is that once the marines get to a certain tech point, and if they're not getting bullied into a corner, they'll win. Why can't the aliens fight back? Why is it that if the marines tech to heavy armor/jetpacks, but then lose all of their equipment in one attack, they typically lose if a rush follows soon after, unable to recover from their mistake? Where was the back and fourth slugging war I used to look forward to, but now I play one game where its just who can get their haymaker punch in first.
This is just a rambling. It certainly is. I just have one more question:
Can we PLEASE have just ONE topic that doesnt turn into a complete flame war where we discuss 1.04 vs current versions? Why is that so hard to obtain? Doesn't anyone think that, as jaded and stupid and forgetful as those who enjoyed 1.04 might be, that they have one piece of information that isn't forgotten, that isn't flawed and that actually could be enjoyed by current players? Isn't this a valuable piece of feedback for developers, especially on the footsteps of NS2's creation?
So don't bite eachothers heads off. I apologize for a stupidly long post, but, just.. talk. And don't flame. ><;
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
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I agree the games are often over way too fast. Sure combat maps can be fast but it is sad how NS maps are simply a race to the most resources at the start and then it's 98% one sided after that. I'm not saying the emphasis shouldn't be on resources, it <i>should</i>. BUT it <i>does</i> feel over all to soon. All those stuctures you took the time to build sometimes never get used because it's just over so soon. So I agree with your "feeling" Haze; it would be nice to have a slow mode.
1. You rush the enemy, and take them by surprise.
2. You play it safe for a while, holding those resources until you can get better units in play.
Either they last 15 minutes, or they last hours. There's no real middle ground any more.
We've all seen our share of long games that are only long because neither team works toward a goal. I'm pretty sure we've all seen at least one game that lasted a long time because both teams worked towards a goal. The most fun games have been when both teams get lucky and work perfectly together, and respond to threats. My favorite game I can still remember had about ten games worth of epic rushes and sieges throughout it. It's just too rare to get teams that are both perfectly evenly matched and hard working.
As example:
ns_veil, 89:11 won by marines (10vs10)
Gameend 2007-03-17 01:31:05
(one hour ago)
I see them quite often..... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I really thikn theres something to be said a game where 1 or 2 people can carry either team or defend one team if the other is fairly stacked. You dont get that anymore <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> and jp hmg was a problem, but not uber uber, the biiig problem was jp rt lockdown (warservers torment/nsd/fsa/log/whoever style)
The sole problem I would see would be a further split in the community. Maybe an idea for NS2, along with its new players? I dunno.
No, these long ###### games happen precisely because of an incompetent commander in the first place.
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Or the alien team is just, you know, not crappy.
NS games are basically the same as a normal, multiplayer RTS game goes. You expand quickly, race for the resources, then you do one of two things..
1. You rush the enemy, and take them by surprise.
2. You play it safe for a while, holding those resources until you can get better units in play.
Either they last 15 minutes, or they last hours. There's no real middle ground any more.
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You never played 1.04.
The problem with slowing the game down is with the early dominance marines have. By slowing down the appearance of higher life forms, you're basically prolonging this period of marine dominance and map control, which means you're just gonna get rocked down to 1 rt, and your hive shotgunned down - every single game (not counting on dramatic skill imbalances).
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Instead of slowing down the entire game, what needs to be achieved is a slowdown of middle and end games. That could mean that both aliens and marines would have an easier time getting to the middle-game stage, whereas things would then get more difficult.
When I play as a marine it seems like twitchy playing aliens are jumping (and blinking) everywhere around me and I have no time to even aim properly. My only option is to get to HA+HMG <b>quick</b> and hope I get welded... I suppose that's not a bad thing in itself, but it's still annoying because when I play as an alien I get shot down so fast I can't even run up to a marine. I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I used to be a darn good skulk, and I find myself completely ineffectual.
Maybe it's just because there aren't any noobs left in the community, but I think it has to do with some of the game dynamics. I agree, things need to slow down. We don't necessarily need 4h games, but I think 45mn-1h range is more appropriate for the NS gameplay.
You never played 1.04.
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Oh shoot, you got me there.
No, I have never played 1.04, I started at about the 2.0 era. But still, I saw a fair share of long games, and some short ones.
No, these long ###### games happen precisely because of an incompetent commander in the first place.
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This coming from the guy who refused to drop an obs in double on ns_origin, when the aliens had ventilation hive and sensory.
Anyways, regardless of the commanders skill, the games don't last that long anymore. Whether you get owned, the game is pretty even, or you are owning, the game doesn't last very long anymore.
I think a "slow mode" is an awesome idea.
Yeah, i remember to this too. In the great NS 2.0 the gameplays goes over an HOUR long gameplay.
i think the NS 2.0 more balanced, like the NS 3.2
No, these long ###### games happen precisely because of an incompetent commander in the first place.
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Bullish. If the commander is incompetent, the marines won't stand a chance.
No, these long ###### games happen precisely because of an incompetent commander in the first place.
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long games dont happen because of incompetent commanders.
sometimes, agreed.
sometimes someone has the upperhand, a ninja action is snuck into place.
you are pushed back several miles in your progress.
every reaction requires an exact and opposite reaction.
you push, the enemy pushes.
I've had some brilliant games like that.
where your team is clearly losing, but somehow manages to sneak itsway to the top.
either by a ninja hivedrop or a pg.
A game where marines were stuck in cargo hive, as it was a reloc. to the point where they won, after suffering wave after wave of oni, fades and lerks constantly raping the base.
or aliens getting pushed back so far into their main hive for an half an hour, enduring marines wave after wave rushing, till the 2nd hive is ninjadropped and the 3rd etc.
ive had so many brilliant 3hour games with strong teams.
so i got no clue where the "incompetent comm" comes from.
that only insinuates you go marine 99.999999999999% of the time.
Which suits well with what i've seen you do.
Flayra said a while back, that he didnt want the games to last that long.
But i guess if you have a really good game, time isnt really relevant is it..
unless youre a victory######.
"i have to win as many times as possible, in as short a time as possible" kind of guy..
well if you are. go play UT.
good maps, good teams with a large portion of humor and sense of gameplay can easily whip up 3hours of constant excitement and have a good time.
/rant.
jesus ###### christ. learn to play the game and you'll find theres nothing wrong with its speed.
Aw... *pinches TOmekki's cheek* Awww!
Also, towards the end of 1.04, I remember games where the marines would take a few nodes, tech rush to JP and HMG without pushing anything. The comm would then sell everything from the IPs upwards to afford said JPs and HMgs for everyone, finally overwhelming the 1st hive before aliens had a third RT. These certainly weren't long games...
However, as soon as we get the upper hand the aliens start whinning to hurry up and finish it. Its like they don't even want to try a comeback, they just give up and start complaining. Meanwhile I get a few people vote to eject me if I don't immediately rush the last hive. I guess you could say I play it safe.
Sure some people say they really enjoyed the game and most rines don't complain too bad because we do win but its still quite annoying to hear how bad you suck just for taking your time. People want fast games, and that's what most comms give them. If you want a slower game I suggest you simply comm and play that way.
Also I don't think we really need 3 or 4 hour games again (I remember having to leave before my team won/lost, VERY annoying), but 45 minutes to an hour and a half or so once and a while would certainly be nice.
As it is now, I rarely if ever encounter a game where there isn't at least 1 person who is pretty good at NS and knows what needs to happen, fast. When this happens, it isn't going to matter if you have some amazing complex strategy that will completely confuse the other team. The game's going to last as long as you can match the other team's advance.
Increasing res cost and research time might lengthen the game, but you may find that you reach the Point of No Return at the same time.
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I think you're misunderstanding his point. Really the only way a game can swing from one side to another is if the leading side makes a mistake. A commander who has the advantage but doesn't do anything about it(definition of incompetent) can swing the game in the aliens favor. And if the alien fades/gorges don't know what to do, the game can swing back in favor of marines...
The point is, if the players know what to do, they aren't likely to lose their team's advantage. So the game will end.
Combat is ment to be fast, slow classic down so its more like the old 1.04.
I never get a feeling I 'worked' for a lifeform or weapon. Its just granted over time by the resflow. It all goes so fast now adays.