Regarding the 3.2 balance

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Comments

  • N_3N_3 \o/ Join Date: 2004-03-12 Member: 27291Members, Constellation
    Just read through everything then, coris and mrben have it spot on really. Personally i like the new fade blink, it feels less mc dependent (i was an adren fade before). The loss of 2 hive armour makes the game continue to be interesting after the 2nd hive goes up, which is good. Unfortunately yes the aliens get ripped, but its hard to balance. Improvements on the 2nd hive could make it domineering again like in 3.1, but improvements on the 3rd hive will be too late because marines can reach close (well good enough to) top tech before then. HA and jetpack are overkill at the moment, i've commed a few 3.2 pugs and i've never needed to use them.

    It's a little bit hard to see at first but the marine's ability to hold res is much better now too (allowing them to get thier upper tech's easier), this is due to marines aware of res attacks and skulks unable to hide behind res towers (ie skulks will lose a 1v1 at a node almost every time now - good for the marine team but).

    I'd like to see a little bit more variation in the alien strategies first before making any big calls (talking more specificlly for the competitive level here), perhaps more tempers for a single early fade, or more lerks, or early dc or sc. On that note mc needs a better aoe now, maybe silencing aliens or making them move faster?
  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Members, Constellation
    I am in fact saying 2 different things:

    --A 1-Hive lock is very difficult to break for the alien team, using only 2-Hive abilities

    --Once the aliens succeed in breaking the marines in the field, push them back into marine spawn, and get 3 Hives---the game still isn't going to end for another 20 minutes. Yes, you can pretty much assume aliens will win EVENTUALLY, but its no fun for anyone to take another 20 minutes to get there after aliens have conquered the entire map and reached their top tech.

    If the marines are feeling nice, they will recycle and get it over with. But you can't really count on that. A long drawn-out seige can be a fun diversion once in a great while, but its not the reason people play NS. You want to spend most of your game time fighting over who will win, rather then playing out an inevitable endgame where nothing you do matters anymore. Things that make the game that much less fun are bad for the game, no matter how much good they might be for balance.
  • AlcapwnAlcapwn "War is the science of destruction" - John Abbot Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17590Members
    N3 is right about the HA and JP's now; there overkill. You dont need them anymore, even if your team sucks.
  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
    edited November 2006
    dont you ever stop to contemplate how ironic your first statement is after reading the second cxwf? and no if the marines dont have ample res and the aliens have 3 hives its not gonna take long to kill them unless youre disorganised <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    I'm late to the party, but I'd like to contribute that I think balancing the game exclusively with competitive play in mind is an extremely oversimplified and short-sighted concept. This argument works on the assumption that public play will eventually reach the level of competitive play when they've had the build long enough, and I'm sure I don't need to explain why this isn't the case. A game that is balanced between two high skill teams is not necessarily balanced between low/mid skill teams, no matter how long they have to adjust to the build and learn strategies. It's not just skill level we're talking about here, it's coordination. A competitive team is highly coordinated because they have plans laid out ahead of time and are used to playing with eachother. Pub teams consist of a random assortment of players that are either loosely associated or total strangers. A team like that is simply not capable of working together as effectively as a competitive team, and so if the game is designed such that it's only balanced between two highly coordinated teams, it will fail hard in pub games.

    That said, I will acknowledge that precise balance is far more important to a scrim than a pub game. In a scrim it's common for teams to be relatively evenly matched, and it's necessary that the game be decided in a fair way based on which team performs even slightly better. In a pub, games are much more often decided by landslides based on which team has a higher percentage of skilled players. That much can't be helped, and the clan scene can't survive without a game that's at least mostly balance. But it still has to be taken into consideration what effect a change will have on pubs, which are far and away the largest portion of the NS playerbase and are the only thing that are actually keeping the game alive in the longterm. If a large enough pub imbalance is introduced it will have a serious impact on their enjoyment of the game.
  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1581769:date=Nov 28 2006, 06:22 PM:name=ZiGGY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZiGGY @ Nov 28 2006, 06:22 PM) [snapback]1581769[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    dont you ever stop to contemplate how ironic your first statement is after reading the second cxwf? and no if the marines dont have ample res and the aliens have 3 hives its not gonna take long to kill them unless youre disorganised <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
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    Would you like to present any evidence of this, or are you content just to tell me I'm wrong repeatedly? Because you haven't added anything new in about 2 pages.
  • Joe2Joe2 Join Date: 2004-09-03 Member: 31268Members
    Before, an onos with carapace could destroy a marine building before dying, this is no longer true. The onos is now too much weak.
    Gorge's bilebomb is also nerfed (reduced velocity) and can't fire very far.

    So, now, marines can turtle without fear because aliens don't have any more good base breaker, the games will end by either:
    - F4er
    - Admin server changing the map

    This is bad !
  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1581780:date=Nov 29 2006, 01:10 AM:name=Cxwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cxwf @ Nov 29 2006, 01:10 AM) [snapback]1581780[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Would you like to present any evidence of this, or are you content just to tell me I'm wrong repeatedly? Because you haven't added anything new in about 2 pages.
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    I already told you how to solve the "impossible 3hive vs camped marine concundrum", when it comes ot 2 hives all rts vs marine bunker its a case of coordinated attacks that will slowly break them down beyond repair less the rfk fund them back into business. but its MORE than possible for a marine team to make a comeback if they have the tech and a hive, this is a solid marine position anytime. if they outplay you and regain res advantage thats fair game. People are still int he we have 2 hives therefore we should win with no effort mentality of play like a kid who taking a crap expects his mommy to wipe his bottom.
    And no I wont contribute anything new because you arent, ive explained it you still dont think 3 hives aliens can beat marines hence i stopped trying to have a conversation with you and stuck firmly on the poke holes front.
  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Members, Constellation
    So long as your admitting you have no evidence then, I won't feel bad about turning my attention to the people who are actually contributing to the discussion.
  • Router_BoxRouter_Box Join Date: 2004-09-07 Member: 31483Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Blink's ROF is slower, but its total thrust over time remains the same, if i remember correctly.

    What is happening that is disrupting people's fade game is that they just tap +attack, and it doesn't move them very far. If they held it down longer they would get the extra boost to get them to the same speed in the same time.

    This was to help out noobies in learning adren management as a fade.
  • enigmaenigma Join Date: 2004-09-11 Member: 31623Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1581782:date=Nov 28 2006, 08:14 PM:name=Joe2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Joe2 @ Nov 28 2006, 08:14 PM) [snapback]1581782[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Before, <b>an onos with carapace could destroy a marine building before dying</b>, this is no longer true. The onos is now too much weak.
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    good god i should hope not.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2006
    <!--quoteo(post=1581792:date=Nov 28 2006, 08:36 PM:name=Router_Box)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Router_Box @ Nov 28 2006, 08:36 PM) [snapback]1581792[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Blink's ROF is slower, but its total thrust over time remains the same, if i remember correctly.

    What is happening that is disrupting people's fade game is that they just tap +attack, and it doesn't move them very far. If they held it down longer they would get the extra boost to get them to the same speed in the same time.

    This was to help out noobies in learning adren management as a fade.
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    No, the ROF is slower and each tick's strength and energy cost remains the same. So it does actually cause you to accelerate half as fast as before, the upside being that it's not so sensitive when it comes to energy usage.

    <!--quoteo(post=1581797:date=Nov 28 2006, 08:55 PM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Nov 28 2006, 08:55 PM) [snapback]1581797[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    good god i should hope not.
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    You don't think one 75 res Onos should be able to sacrifice his life to kill a single structure?
  • GrimmadogGrimmadog Join Date: 2004-04-26 Member: 28213Members
    But the fade's top speed still remains the same. Even with 1/2 the RoF, you can get there pretty quickly
  • OtsOts Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18577Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1581801:date=Nov 29 2006, 04:13 AM:name=Grimmadog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Grimmadog @ Nov 29 2006, 04:13 AM) [snapback]1581801[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    But the fade's top speed still remains the same. Even with 1/2 the RoF,<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> you can get there pretty quickly<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
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    Just wanted to emphasize this abit.
  • HarrowerHarrower Join Date: 2005-03-16 Member: 45478Members
    Ok fine I'll give you that, but the time it takes to get there is still very valuable when you're being hmg'd by a jet in maint and trying to get under the bridge to block the bullets. When you're playing in pubs all the time you don't see it because people in pubs stare at you like a deer in headlights for a good second before they even begin to start shooting you. Contrast this with the lightning reflexes of a skilled and focused player, and the speed of blink's acceleration becomes more of a factor. You can argue that fades needed a nerf, but keep in mind how much work it takes for an alien to get 50 res that can be lost in 1 second to two shotguns.
  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
    just because you can lose something if youre clumsy doesnt mean its crap <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
    and cxwf considering 50% of the things youve posted have not only been countered by people but shown to be utter bollocks i recommend canning the sarcasm and getting a clue <3
  • enigmaenigma Join Date: 2004-09-11 Member: 31623Members
    edited November 2006
    <!--quoteo(post=1581800:date=Nov 28 2006, 09:10 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Nov 28 2006, 09:10 PM) [snapback]1581800[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    You don't think one 75 res Onos should be able to sacrifice his life to kill a single structure?
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    lost arms lab in a 2 hive game with scs is game over
  • Joe2Joe2 Join Date: 2004-09-03 Member: 31268Members
    edited November 2006
    Why with SCs ?
    SC only counter Observatory when out of range.
    And focus is not good to destroy building.
  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Members, Constellation
    I promised I wouldn't reply to the troll anymore, regardless of what wild accusations get flung around, so...

    <!--quoteo(post=1581846:date=Nov 29 2006, 12:23 AM:name=Joe2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Joe2 @ Nov 29 2006, 12:23 AM) [snapback]1581846[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Why with SCs ?
    SC only counter Observatory when out of range.
    And focus is not good to destroy building.
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    Specifically with SCs because there is likely at least 1 Focus Fade around, who can now get 1-Hit kills on every marine on the map until a new Arms Lab is built. If that Fade can get over to Marine start pretty quickly, he can harass the marines easily enough that the new Arms Lab won't ever <i>get</i> built, since anyone who tries to build it is immediately 1-hit KOed by the Fade.

    Losing an arms lab is always devastating, but with SCs up it can be impossible to recover.
  • SkyrageSkyrage Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20249Members
    I still say the Onos should be massively beefed up and have it's cost upped to 100 res like in the good old days.

    And have it's "hit and run" skills replaced with something else. I'm talking about stomp and devour now.
  • TerRaKanETerRaKanE Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16292Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1581864:date=Nov 29 2006, 08:09 AM:name=Skyrage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Skyrage @ Nov 29 2006, 08:09 AM) [snapback]1581864[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    And have it's "hit and run" skills replaced with something else. I'm talking about stomp and devour now.
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    Oh my, DON'T you ever try to touch stomp!
    It's the ONLY thing which saves an onos of HA & HMG Marines!
    Even if you beef it up (then it would be supposed to run into a crowd of marines, wouldn't it?) what would you do against 3 HMG then? You'll be down in a split second as now, but then you lose 100 ress!

    I like the idea to beef it up and make it cost 100 ress though.
  • SkyrageSkyrage Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20249Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1581887:date=Nov 29 2006, 03:26 AM:name=TerRaKanE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TerRaKanE @ Nov 29 2006, 03:26 AM) [snapback]1581887[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Oh my, DON'T you ever try to touch stomp!
    It's the ONLY thing which saves an onos of HA & HMG Marines!
    Even if you beef it up (then it would be supposed to run into a crowd of marines, wouldn't it?) what would you do against 3 HMG then? You'll be down in a split second as now, but then you lose 100 ress!

    I like the idea to beef it up and make it cost 100 ress though.
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    I was talking about beefing it up to roughly 1.04 standards, when it took a crapload to bring one Onos down, who by that time could cause pretty immense damage and casualties.

    I want the onos to cause extreme worries for the marines once they realize that the aliens have one - just like it did in 1.04.
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    Well 1.04 Onos is how I imagined Onos. Onos only on Hive 3 and making it a devastating and destructive force which can end the game in a matter of minutes as opposed to half an hour.
  • EmanonEmanon Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16254Members, Constellation
    edited November 2006
    <!--quoteo(post=1581989:date=Nov 29 2006, 10:45 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thaldarin @ Nov 29 2006, 10:45 AM) [snapback]1581989[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Well 1.04 Onos is how I imagined Onos. Onos only on Hive 3 and making it a devastating and destructive force which can end the game in a matter of minutes as opposed to half an hour.
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    Yes! I agree go back to the onos without a hitbox!


    Anyho,

    In terms of balance on a 6vs6 competative setting: The better "team" (teamwork/organization) has won each match irregardless of chamber selection.

    Although DC has shown some preference as a smart cara fade at 3-3:30 mark is pretty hard to counter. IMO the 2 strait cara fades is really hard to combat.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2006
    <!--quoteo(post=1581836:date=Nov 29 2006, 12:47 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Nov 29 2006, 12:47 AM) [snapback]1581836[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    lost arms lab in a 2 hive game with scs is game over
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    Well, I think we can make an exception for something way in the back of marine spawn.


    And 100 res is too damn much, I don't like the idea of alien units being such massive investments when they can die so easily to a single mistake(which will always be true of an Onos unless you beef its HP to absurd levels).
  • TOmekkiTOmekki Join Date: 2003-11-25 Member: 23524Members
    then dont make mistakes
  • FieariFieari Join Date: 2002-10-22 Member: 1566Members, Constellation
    I had just brought up the idea in the constie forum for having locational damage on the onos, where the front head plate is invulnerable (or nearly so), which would closely approximate the 1.04 onos (whose hitbox was nigh impossible to hit from the front).

    This would make the onos unstoppable versus a single marine, since you can always face a single target, thus requiring squads of at LEAST two to take an onos down. That's pretty scary, I'd say. What does the world at large have to say about the idea?
  • ZRockZRock Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11910Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1582095:date=Nov 29 2006, 04:32 PM:name=Fieari)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fieari @ Nov 29 2006, 04:32 PM) [snapback]1582095[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    I had just brought up the idea in the constie forum for having locational damage on the onos, where the front head plate is invulnerable (or nearly so), which would closely approximate the 1.04 onos (whose hitbox was nigh impossible to hit from the front).

    This would make the onos unstoppable versus a single marine, since you can always face a single target, thus requiring squads of at LEAST two to take an onos down. That's pretty scary, I'd say. What does the world at large have to say about the idea?
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    I think locational damage is probably quite firmly in the "not gonna happen in NS" column. But sounds like an awesome suggestion for NS2.

    I've heard some people suggesting beefing up the HP and/or armor significantly, with possible res cost increase to keep it from being too powerful. Might be something to look into...
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Onos locational damage is an old idea and I think it's a good one, but it's not gonna happen before NS2. I think it would require some sort of limitation on turning speed though since it would be silly for an Onos to be spinning back and forth all the time to keep his head pointed at marines, and that wouldn't work with mouse sensitivity settings. Maybe it would work with tank-style controls for the Onos, i.e. the strafe buttons turn left/right and mouse look only works vertically. In any case, it's way too much to think about for now.
  • HarrowerHarrower Join Date: 2005-03-16 Member: 45478Members
    Just give the onos a riot shield effect. You don't need to implement full scale locational damage. It's a great idea.
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