1) plz, stop the useless insulting trollings, i'm sure all of you guys have good and bad sides. Just don't pass your mood on others, else it's gonna be a neverending struggle... we're not here for having headaches, okay ?
2) on the overall things that have been said here (alien nerf on hive 2 3) : full agree.... aliens can't stand hits now and maneuverability isn't that great... +1 for Onos head-plating
3) one thing about the balance. . . on gorges <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" />
situation : CO_ map, gorge(4-abilities) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> vs <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" /> marine(whatever marine it is, he has ressuply already) (we can assume a lvl 5 gorg is being chased by a lvl 5 rine... probably having ressuply already since there are lerk since 2 mins in the game) in 3.1, the gorge could shoot a web on a wall, form a "string" of slime shooting again the opposite wall, and wait for the marine to get caught in it to throw another web on the other side, form a new string that would re-web the marine once he's freed, thus letting little time for the gorge to shoot a spit at the marine, who has ressuply already and regain his HPs as fast, if not faster, than what the gorge can damage him. The gorge is still using a lot of stamina to keep a marine webbed, even more if he need to shoot the marine by himself (which is highly unlikely to get the marine dead), so it's a 1:1 situation... eventually, the gorge is out of energy, the marine regain control, and shoot the gorg down in 2-3 hits with SG, or a clip of lmg. this shows that the gorge already need, most of the time, someone else to finish the job... a fade passing-by, a skulk, or another gorge to dual spit him... (remember that aliens are said to be more independant, combat wise, be it good or not for the gameplay)
Now in 3.2(beta 1), same situation : The marine comes, see the "hardened" web (can he be caught walking into it now ? so visible...unless putting the web on a going-down stair-step so the marine step on it...) even if he's caught in the web, it's now much more difficult to keep him webbed, dis-allowing the 1:1 situation of 3.1, meaning the gorge is now only dead meat since he cannot get the marine down by himself anyway
now if you take the case of a JP+HMG/SG marine, it's even worst, you cannot try to trap him with webs, cause he's gonna rush thru the "liquid" webs before they harden. a JP+GL is just the same, except he does lots of damage, aimlessly, with radius, and destroying the webs all around.... basicaly render the JP rush very hard to counter now
Now here's a few thing that <u><i>might</i></u> be used to balance the gameplay a bit (all type of maps) -<u>Hardening time of webs toned down</u>, speeding these up, would require some reflex for the marines to avoid (or break) new webs (0.800s to 1.100s instead of 1.5 ? ) -<u>make webs catch grenades</u> : would allow the gorgs to webs some tactical corners to avoid deadly nades ricochets, reducing the number of nade going thru this spot (could be a mess to code, but since nades are already entities that need to be calculated in the game... they bounce off wall, but explode on alien contact ?, why not turn their velocity to 0 when touching a web ? -<u>Make the grenade explosion "re-liquidize" webs</u> : thus needing at least 2 nades to clear a radius-width area from its webs (1st nade de-hardening webs -so they're fragile now- for about 1.5/2s, a second one would destroy the webs since they're "liquid") (off course, in the case of "nade catching", the web that glued a grenade would be blasted on 1st hit, not on second) -<u>increase the spit efficiency</u> : damage were correct but now that aliens are weaker... dunno, maybe some more damage to life without touching armor ? at least, Spit need to be QUICKER, in 3.1 marines can dodge it too easily, get the gorg in close range, he's dead, get the gorg long range, he miss all shots, and mid range....the marine move faster than him, the marine decide of the range, not the gorge, sorry gorge... -<u>Add a "direct web" shot</u> : allow the gorge to use a slow-moving recognizable shot (same sprite than spit is a bit ugly... make a grey/pinkish one for webs; no reason that the webs are translucent while the projectile is green after all) so they can aim either at walls for current webs, or directly at marines with lesser effects (and easily dodgeable shot) or partial effects like just disabling his weapon for a second, or pinning him on the ground for 2 seconds (Upper/lower body part ? -simple hitboxes recognition- a crouched marine would not be exposing his legs so...) (it HAS to be a lesser/partial effect, since it's only using 1 shot, whereas the "webs" use 2 shots to make 1st line, and whenever the points you aimed for aren't seeing each other, you gotta restart a new web line. Also, the Rate of fire need to be toned down, for both balancing and web saving, since webs are limited on a server, and most ppl tend to use webs in fullauto, putting an incredible amount of useless mini webs in the same spot that will never see a marine's combat boot) -<u>Liquid webs should slow down light armor marines</u> : Not pinning them on ground, but lowering just a bit the overall speed of movement for about 3-4 seconds, the more liquid webs they cross, without disabling weapon or JP. thus allowing to slow down a lone rusher to ease the others lifeform hits. would take about 4 liquid webs to take the marine to half-run speed) -<u>a marine running into a web should be able to switch weapon</u> : using what he has in hand to harvest/break the slime string, being stuck on ground, but able to change to another weapon and shoot (so the marine going "1st and forth" could get his Shotty webbed, but draw his pistol to deal with the ambushing skulk if needed) -Webbed Marines shouldn't be able to use ressuply that fast : lower the rate, or make the medpack/ammopack spawn at their feet, but render them unable to use it before the web is off
4) About the "hits not registering" problem : I've been seeing this already, happen in most games with beta 1, on the new co_ map I had a marine (lvl 1, none killed yet, fresh map) ducked into a vent, apparently with no sound.... cause i was behind him, biting him for like 10 seconds....I couldn't believe it... wasnt dodging or turning (off course, no hit = no damage = no alert) when he finally checked behind him, he saw me and got me dead in 3 lmg bullets... which astonished me too... on a ns_, I managed to land a lone, lost lmg bullet that killed a fade, but my line of fire was a good 3 metter away from fade's trajectory... kinda weird when it happen, ppl start screaming for cheat, and i'd be too... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
5) feel free to move/copy in another thread should it be needed <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2006
Anyone having played Chronicles of Rid######: Escape from Butcher Bay will agree with me that an Onos that behaves and feels like that last walker tank you get would be awesome.
A max speed on turning, slower movement speed and a lot more HP and armor. As far as the gameplay arguement goes, there's nothing preventing an Onos behaving like a tank from being balanced. It only takes about 1% skill to Onos right, so you can't use that arguement either. Anything to make it something else than what it is now: A Fade with no blink but more HP.
would it help to give notice of gorge under attack on the minimap, like rez towers now? trade off being if they can't protect themself, wouldn't the others rally to it? (not like babblers are available <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> )
<b>@SmoodCroozn: </b> teamwork != running together as a group. If the marine team decides to split up to cover more areas of the map or to cap nodes (1 marine east, 1 west 3 goes center) then that team will be using more teamwork than a team that just runs around randomly but sticking together. You have to separate teamwork from sticking together, because the two are far from the same things.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But until you remove lerks from ramboing with a hard counter as Firewater said, people will still lerk in an aggressive way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those 'rambos' still have to play smart to stay alive.
Regarding fades being overpowered in 3.1 and how in 3.2 they're more balanced and promotes more teamwork on aliens; it detracts teamwork from marines as well, in 3.1 you normally had to have 2-3 marines take on a fade head on, fade would kill 1-2 of them and run when he's hurt, a marine with a shotgun would of gone around the map and headed the fade off and killed it while it's low. Seemed like that type of coordination and time spent was an even trade for the 50 res the alien would of had to of used after waiting 4-5 minutes to fade.
Now 3.2 fades need full umbra support to make multi kills and with less speed and less health if they do run into a shotgunner waiting for them behind a corner they have less chance to take evasive maneuvers and get the heck out of there.
Some amount of the hive related armor bonus should be brought back, I cant see anyone having a fun game on aliens if they all think the games over after eight minutes have passed and marines have lvl 2 weapons. Once marines have lvl 3 hmgs the momentum seems to be lost for aliens if they don't have 3rd hive up.
I commed a game of 3.2 yesterday where some bozo jumped in the chair first and spent all of our starting res spamming armorys. I recycled them all for half our starting res and was still able to win, we held only 2 rts for 8 minutes till we got 2/1 upgrades then pushed on the empty hive with a few shotgun/welders. After taking that hive and locking it down we just sat on res and defended the hive till we got lvl 3 hmgs on the field, after that aliens weren't able to hurt us too badly and game was over 10 minutes later. That game should of been lost for marines.
There are a few other minor things I don't like about 3.2 but above are the main game problems I see. There has been a lot of great stuff you guys have implemented, thanks for taking the ###### in stride and taking the time to patch up a lot of the errors from 3.1 in case any of the people who made the patch are reading this. You guys have made a great game and most of the ###### comes from people who enjoy the game, even if they seem assholish about it at times.
I really do like the new version, but on pubs im just not seeing any teamwork, which is nothing new, only now they cant get carried <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> people just need a solid kick up the ###### and it wont be so bad, large ns games have always played to the same tune anyway so im not too worried <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1582554:date=Nov 30 2006, 11:49 PM:name=Splinter_Steve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Splinter_Steve @ Nov 30 2006, 11:49 PM) [snapback]1582554[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Lastly, directed with love to tmk:
Please stop pretending you''re Swirl, it''s getting tiresome. You''re not funny and you''re certainly not clever. You''re just another dime-a-dozen wannabe. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes because that line is such a good reply to what i said. why do you take offense so easily? if the marines werent some poor newbie division pubbers then hooray you, youre possibly the best lerk this world has ever seen. and if they were then i really do wonder why you even posted in the first place.
<!--quoteo(post=1582854:date=Dec 1 2006, 01:38 PM:name=Priestly)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Priestly @ Dec 1 2006, 01:38 PM) [snapback]1582854[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...50 res...full umbra support...less speed and less health...less chance to take evasive maneuvers and get the heck out of there....think the games over after eight minutes have passed and marines have lvl 2 weapons...That game should of been lost for marines.
There has been a lot of great stuff you guys have implemented, thanks for taking the ###### in stride and taking the time to patch up a lot of the errors from 3.1 in case any of the people who made the patch are reading this. You guys have made a great game and most of the ###### comes from people who enjoy the game, even if they seem assholish about it at times.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1583181:date=Dec 2 2006, 05:45 AM:name=TOmekki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TOmekki @ Dec 2 2006, 05:45 AM) [snapback]1583181[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> yes because that line is such a good reply to what i said. why do you take offense so easily? if the marines werent some poor newbie division pubbers then hooray you, youre possibly the best lerk this world has ever seen. and if they were then i really do wonder why you even posted in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a perfect reply. Stop wasting space now, thx.
I wouldn't mind bile being back to its old mechanics. I don't see what was so broken about it, but then, I'm not a playtester, so maybe you guys are seeing things I'm not.
But on that topic, I like the idea a few posts back of having a "Builders Under Attack!" message for when gorges are damaged by <u>enemy</u> fire.
<!--quoteo(post=1582802:date=Dec 1 2006, 12:08 PM:name=B0Z0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(B0Z0 @ Dec 1 2006, 12:08 PM) [snapback]1582802[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> would it help to give notice of gorge under attack on the minimap, like rez towers now? trade off being if they can't protect themself, wouldn't the others rally to it? (not like babblers are available <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ) <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1583967:date=Dec 4 2006, 04:31 AM:name=ThePebbler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ThePebbler @ Dec 4 2006, 04:31 AM) [snapback]1583967[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Explosives should damage teammates. The marines shouldn't be able to cluster together and spam explosives with out a penalty. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So tell your server admin to turn on Friendly Fire.
The game really plays a lot better with FF on. You just have to be a little more careful while aiming, is all.
Lerk was never meant to be a minifade. It's supposed to be a support class, a flying pest who distracts the marines. He's supposed to spore away rine armor and attack whenever they turn thier backs, not just run in and rely on pancaking and buggy hitboxes to escape.
New fade is interesting, but I'd still like my old blink back. Or at least speed it up a little. Adren on fades is now as useless as it is on skulks, until the third hive.
The second hive is no longer game-breaking. The third hive isn't GG. I like that. But MC is still definitely the best starting chamber. Now it's just a decision between dcs and scs for second hive.
Onos needs a boost. He's just a esoteric support class. The only real reason to get him is a counter to heavies. There is NO other reason.
New minimap is awesome. You can actually see what's going on now. +Movement is definitely the bee's knees.
Jp's need either to be nerfed or put back to 15 res. They're just too spammable.
Anyway: The 3.2 balance has been shifted towards rine at top level (thanks to perma hive 1 armor) but on lower level it stays about the same (hive 1 armor and easier blink/leap/charge control balance out quite nicely).
So overall i think it made game more fun, especially for pubbing aliens <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Hey, I'm going to go ahead and say this even though I'm too lazy to go through every post to see if this has been said, so my apologies if someone already has, and if they have, then you can tell I agree.
Anywho, after playing 3.2 NS since the public beta release I've noticed this unbalance that we're talking about now, and I think that the changes from 3.1 to 3.2 have really been misguided.
Most poeple can agree that the 3.1 alien game was more powerful than the marine game. That should be pretty solid. It seems that the idea behind 3.2 was to NERF to alien game to bring it down, and by bringing it down has reduced practically the 3 of the most effective and important parts of the alien game: the armor bonus, fade blink, lerk speed. These three nerfs are a factor in the game for mostly skilled people, the +movement addition doesn't make fading overpowered, it has just made things easier for non skilled fades to fade. Like the non-crouch change for bunnyhopping in the past.
Now think of the balance this way: in 3.1 you aliens are stronger than marine game, so you drop the aliens dramatically, causing more disturbance, and then in the patch there will be struggle to UP the alien game back to balance. I think this approach is wrong. Will take longer, and make a cause for more disturbance.
What should have been done within the changes of 3.1 to 3.2 is an extra BUFF to the marine game. Leave the fade blink the same, leave the lerk speed, leave the armor bonus, and make small changes within the marine game and tech tree, such as the changes to JP costs. Instead of making aliens take a huge drop in gameplay, slightly up the game for marines while adding all the other helpful changes that we see in 3.2. I think this approach will take less time to balance, appease more people who play NS, and not, frankly, piss off all of the people who have skill and can be a great alien. Don't take away from the aliens, give the marines more.
It makes much more sense to slightly up the marine game, to achieve balance, than to make a huge drop in alien game, which to most people appears to have been over shot.
This blink makes it hard for skilled and casual players to use. So while you nerf the skilled players, you still screw average players.
The fade's purpose was just to kill. If he can't do that, he's useless. If the intention was to not make the game so fade-focused (pun haha), then remove blink altogether and give him some other team ability. Skulks have parasite, gorges have heal, lerks have umbra, ona have stomp.
There has to be a legimate counter to JPs now since the changes. Fades require more time to accelerate, lerks can't climb as high anymore and webs take a while to stick now. I'd say the easiest counter is a aoe ability like xenocide, but there needs to be one in hive 2. Imagine how strong heavies would be if devour came at hive 3. Perhaps a gas-like ability that slows jps down like the ensnare in Starcraft?
The interface stuff is great, but gameplay-wise, it's hard to transition. Now I can understand this backlash against the new blink.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The interface stuff is great, but gameplay-wise, it's hard to transition. Now I can understand this backlash against the new blink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the community is having a backlash to it, because 3.1 was the most balanced version of NS. With 3.2, and so many gameplay changes, you're taking a version of the game that is almost balanced, and then shaking it up. Its like taking a scale, Marine game weighs 10 grams, alien game weighs 11, lets try to balance it with the release of 3.2 by making the marine game 10.5 and dropping the aliens to 9. It makes no sense.
No offense to you, but saying 3.1 is the most balanced is subjective. I'm certain the devs know what they are doing, it just takes some tooling here and there to get it down right. After all, that's how we got to 3.1.
Don't forget the patch where aliens could only egg in hive areas, ew.
The fade was changed into a fast-moving killer. That's all he ever was. If you are going to take that away from him, give him a new purpose to support the team.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2006
<!--quoteo(post=1584385:date=Dec 5 2006, 08:39 AM:name=Xerond)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xerond @ Dec 5 2006, 08:39 AM) [snapback]1584385[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think the community is having a backlash to it, because 3.1 was the most balanced version of NS. With 3.2, and so many gameplay changes, you're taking a version of the game that is almost balanced, and then shaking it up. Its like taking a scale, Marine game weighs 10 grams, alien game weighs 11, lets try to balance it with the release of 3.2 by making the marine game 10.5 and dropping the aliens to 9. It makes no sense. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you think 3.1 was the most balanced version of NS, you really haven't been playing this game for long.
The slower blink fire rate makes using +movement a must. Personally I don't mind the change, spamming my 1 and 2 keys wasn't really the most fun part of Fading. With +movement you're not really any slower than with the old blink, but it does take some getting used to -- especially when you've been spamming your weapon keys for so long that it feels natural. That said, I don't see the point of breaking the old Fading style, while adding +movement. It would make a lot more sense to add +movement and keep having +blink as it used to be, so people who prefer using it can?
All in all 3.2 is a good update, but I'm glad the dev team decided to do a public beta first because there are a few things that should be fixed. The jury is still out on balance and I'm sure it's going to be a while before we can say something for sure. Tactics and play style needs at least a couple of months to adapt some of the bigger changes.
Comments
a few thing that i'd like to say here :
1) plz, stop the useless insulting trollings, i'm sure all of you guys have good and bad sides. Just don't pass your mood on others, else it's gonna be a neverending struggle... we're not here for having headaches, okay ?
2) on the overall things that have been said here (alien nerf on hive 2 3) : full agree.... aliens can't stand hits now and maneuverability isn't that great...
+1 for Onos head-plating
3) one thing about the balance. . . on gorges <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" />
situation : CO_ map, gorge(4-abilities) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> vs <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" /> marine(whatever marine it is, he has ressuply already) (we can assume a lvl 5 gorg is being chased by a lvl 5 rine... probably having ressuply already since there are lerk since 2 mins in the game)
in 3.1, the gorge could shoot a web on a wall, form a "string" of slime shooting again the opposite wall, and wait for the marine to get caught in it to throw another web on the other side, form a new string that would re-web the marine once he's freed, thus letting little time for the gorge to shoot a spit at the marine, who has ressuply already and regain his HPs as fast, if not faster, than what the gorge can damage him.
The gorge is still using a lot of stamina to keep a marine webbed, even more if he need to shoot the marine by himself (which is highly unlikely to get the marine dead), so it's a 1:1 situation... eventually, the gorge is out of energy, the marine regain control, and shoot the gorg down in 2-3 hits with SG, or a clip of lmg.
this shows that the gorge already need, most of the time, someone else to finish the job... a fade passing-by, a skulk, or another gorge to dual spit him... (remember that aliens are said to be more independant, combat wise, be it good or not for the gameplay)
Now in 3.2(beta 1), same situation :
The marine comes, see the "hardened" web (can he be caught walking into it now ? so visible...unless putting the web on a going-down stair-step so the marine step on it...)
even if he's caught in the web, it's now much more difficult to keep him webbed, dis-allowing the 1:1 situation of 3.1, meaning the gorge is now only dead meat since he cannot get the marine down by himself anyway
now if you take the case of a JP+HMG/SG marine, it's even worst, you cannot try to trap him with webs, cause he's gonna rush thru the "liquid" webs before they harden.
a JP+GL is just the same, except he does lots of damage, aimlessly, with radius, and destroying the webs all around.... basicaly render the JP rush very hard to counter now
Now here's a few thing that <u><i>might</i></u> be used to balance the gameplay a bit (all type of maps)
-<u>Hardening time of webs toned down</u>, speeding these up, would require some reflex for the marines to avoid (or break) new webs (0.800s to 1.100s instead of 1.5 ? )
-<u>make webs catch grenades</u> : would allow the gorgs to webs some tactical corners to avoid deadly nades ricochets, reducing the number of nade going thru this spot (could be a mess to code, but since nades are already entities that need to be calculated in the game... they bounce off wall, but explode on alien contact ?, why not turn their velocity to 0 when touching a web ?
-<u>Make the grenade explosion "re-liquidize" webs</u> : thus needing at least 2 nades to clear a radius-width area from its webs (1st nade de-hardening webs -so they're fragile now- for about 1.5/2s, a second one would destroy the webs since they're "liquid")
(off course, in the case of "nade catching", the web that glued a grenade would be blasted on 1st hit, not on second)
-<u>increase the spit efficiency</u> : damage were correct but now that aliens are weaker... dunno, maybe some more damage to life without touching armor ? at least, Spit need to be QUICKER, in 3.1 marines can dodge it too easily, get the gorg in close range, he's dead, get the gorg long range, he miss all shots, and mid range....the marine move faster than him, the marine decide of the range, not the gorge, sorry gorge...
-<u>Add a "direct web" shot</u> : allow the gorge to use a slow-moving recognizable shot (same sprite than spit is a bit ugly... make a grey/pinkish one for webs; no reason that the webs are translucent while the projectile is green after all) so they can aim either at walls for current webs, or directly at marines with lesser effects (and easily dodgeable shot) or partial effects like just disabling his weapon for a second, or pinning him on the ground for 2 seconds (Upper/lower body part ? -simple hitboxes recognition- a crouched marine would not be exposing his legs so...)
(it HAS to be a lesser/partial effect, since it's only using 1 shot, whereas the "webs" use 2 shots to make 1st line, and whenever the points you aimed for aren't seeing each other, you gotta restart a new web line.
Also, the Rate of fire need to be toned down, for both balancing and web saving, since webs are limited on a server, and most ppl tend to use webs in fullauto, putting an incredible amount of useless mini webs in the same spot that will never see a marine's combat boot)
-<u>Liquid webs should slow down light armor marines</u> : Not pinning them on ground, but lowering just a bit the overall speed of movement for about 3-4 seconds, the more liquid webs they cross, without disabling weapon or JP. thus allowing to slow down a lone rusher to ease the others lifeform hits. would take about 4 liquid webs to take the marine to half-run speed)
-<u>a marine running into a web should be able to switch weapon</u> : using what he has in hand to harvest/break the slime string, being stuck on ground, but able to change to another weapon and shoot (so the marine going "1st and forth" could get his Shotty webbed, but draw his pistol to deal with the ambushing skulk if needed)
-Webbed Marines shouldn't be able to use ressuply that fast : lower the rate, or make the medpack/ammopack spawn at their feet, but render them unable to use it before the web is off
4) About the "hits not registering" problem :
I've been seeing this already, happen in most games with beta 1, on the new co_ map I had a marine (lvl 1, none killed yet, fresh map) ducked into a vent, apparently with no sound.... cause i was behind him, biting him for like 10 seconds....I couldn't believe it... wasnt dodging or turning (off course, no hit = no damage = no alert) when he finally checked behind him, he saw me and got me dead in 3 lmg bullets... which astonished me too...
on a ns_, I managed to land a lone, lost lmg bullet that killed a fade, but my line of fire was a good 3 metter away from fade's trajectory... kinda weird when it happen, ppl start screaming for cheat, and i'd be too... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
5) feel free to move/copy in another thread should it be needed <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
A max speed on turning, slower movement speed and a lot more HP and armor. As far as the gameplay arguement goes, there's nothing preventing an Onos behaving like a tank from being balanced. It only takes about 1% skill to Onos right, so you can't use that arguement either. Anything to make it something else than what it is now: A Fade with no blink but more HP.
This might be best left for NS2 though.
trade off being if they can't protect themself, wouldn't the others rally to it? (not like babblers are available <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> )
Those 'rambos' still have to play smart to stay alive.
Now 3.2 fades need full umbra support to make multi kills and with less speed and less health if they do run into a shotgunner waiting for them behind a corner they have less chance to take evasive maneuvers and get the heck out of there.
Some amount of the hive related armor bonus should be brought back, I cant see anyone having a fun game on aliens if they all think the games over after eight minutes have passed and marines have lvl 2 weapons. Once marines have lvl 3 hmgs the momentum seems to be lost for aliens if they don't have 3rd hive up.
I commed a game of 3.2 yesterday where some bozo jumped in the chair first and spent all of our starting res spamming armorys. I recycled them all for half our starting res and was still able to win, we held only 2 rts for 8 minutes till we got 2/1 upgrades then pushed on the empty hive with a few shotgun/welders. After taking that hive and locking it down we just sat on res and defended the hive till we got lvl 3 hmgs on the field, after that aliens weren't able to hurt us too badly and game was over 10 minutes later. That game should of been lost for marines.
There are a few other minor things I don't like about 3.2 but above are the main game problems I see. There has been a lot of great stuff you guys have implemented, thanks for taking the ###### in stride and taking the time to patch up a lot of the errors from 3.1 in case any of the people who made the patch are reading this. You guys have made a great game and most of the ###### comes from people who enjoy the game, even if they seem assholish about it at times.
Lastly, directed with love to tmk:
Please stop pretending you''re Swirl, it''s getting tiresome. You''re not funny and you''re certainly not clever. You''re just another dime-a-dozen wannabe.
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yes because that line is such a good reply to what i said. why do you take offense so easily? if the marines werent some poor newbie division pubbers then hooray you, youre possibly the best lerk this world has ever seen. and if they were then i really do wonder why you even posted in the first place.
There has been a lot of great stuff you guys have implemented, thanks for taking the ###### in stride and taking the time to patch up a lot of the errors from 3.1 in case any of the people who made the patch are reading this. You guys have made a great game and most of the ###### comes from people who enjoy the game, even if they seem assholish about it at times.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you.
yes because that line is such a good reply to what i said. why do you take offense so easily? if the marines werent some poor newbie division pubbers then hooray you, youre possibly the best lerk this world has ever seen. and if they were then i really do wonder why you even posted in the first place.
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It's a perfect reply. Stop wasting space now, thx.
It's a perfect reply. Stop wasting space now, thx.
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oh, good to see you have a sense of humor after all
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But on that topic, I like the idea a few posts back of having a "Builders Under Attack!" message for when gorges are damaged by <u>enemy</u> fire.
would it help to give notice of gorge under attack on the minimap, like rez towers now?
trade off being if they can't protect themself, wouldn't the others rally to it? (not like babblers are available <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> )
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<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="mad-fix.gif" />
Explosives should damage teammates. The marines shouldn't be able to cluster together and spam explosives with out a penalty.
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So tell your server admin to turn on Friendly Fire.
The game really plays a lot better with FF on. You just have to be a little more careful while aiming, is all.
New fade is interesting, but I'd still like my old blink back. Or at least speed it up a little. Adren on fades is now as useless as it is on skulks, until the third hive.
The second hive is no longer game-breaking. The third hive isn't GG. I like that. But MC is still definitely the best starting chamber. Now it's just a decision between dcs and scs for second hive.
Onos needs a boost. He's just a esoteric support class. The only real reason to get him is a counter to heavies. There is NO other reason.
New minimap is awesome. You can actually see what's going on now. +Movement is definitely the bee's knees.
Jp's need either to be nerfed or put back to 15 res. They're just too spammable.
I like this patch, just needs tweaking.
Can someone edit that for size?
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<3 puzl <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Anyway: The 3.2 balance has been shifted towards rine at top level (thanks to perma hive 1 armor) but on lower level it stays about the same (hive 1 armor and easier blink/leap/charge control balance out quite nicely).
So overall i think it made game more fun, especially for pubbing aliens <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Anywho, after playing 3.2 NS since the public beta release I've noticed this unbalance that we're talking about now, and I think that the changes from 3.1 to 3.2 have really been misguided.
Most poeple can agree that the 3.1 alien game was more powerful than the marine game. That should be pretty solid. It seems that the idea behind 3.2 was to NERF to alien game to bring it down, and by bringing it down has reduced practically the 3 of the most effective and important parts of the alien game: the armor bonus, fade blink, lerk speed. These three nerfs are a factor in the game for mostly skilled people, the +movement addition doesn't make fading overpowered, it has just made things easier for non skilled fades to fade. Like the non-crouch change for bunnyhopping in the past.
Now think of the balance this way: in 3.1 you aliens are stronger than marine game, so you drop the aliens dramatically, causing more disturbance, and then in the patch there will be struggle to UP the alien game back to balance. I think this approach is wrong. Will take longer, and make a cause for more disturbance.
What should have been done within the changes of 3.1 to 3.2 is an extra BUFF to the marine game. Leave the fade blink the same, leave the lerk speed, leave the armor bonus, and make small changes within the marine game and tech tree, such as the changes to JP costs. Instead of making aliens take a huge drop in gameplay, slightly up the game for marines while adding all the other helpful changes that we see in 3.2. I think this approach will take less time to balance, appease more people who play NS, and not, frankly, piss off all of the people who have skill and can be a great alien. Don't take away from the aliens, give the marines more.
It makes much more sense to slightly up the marine game, to achieve balance, than to make a huge drop in alien game, which to most people appears to have been over shot.
This help marine to turtle a lot more.
The fade's purpose was just to kill. If he can't do that, he's useless. If the intention was to not make the game so fade-focused (pun haha), then remove blink altogether and give him some other team ability. Skulks have parasite, gorges have heal, lerks have umbra, ona have stomp.
There has to be a legimate counter to JPs now since the changes. Fades require more time to accelerate, lerks can't climb as high anymore and webs take a while to stick now. I'd say the easiest counter is a aoe ability like xenocide, but there needs to be one in hive 2. Imagine how strong heavies would be if devour came at hive 3. Perhaps a gas-like ability that slows jps down like the ensnare in Starcraft?
The interface stuff is great, but gameplay-wise, it's hard to transition. Now I can understand this backlash against the new blink.
I think the community is having a backlash to it, because 3.1 was the most balanced version of NS. With 3.2, and so many gameplay changes, you're taking a version of the game that is almost balanced, and then shaking it up. Its like taking a scale, Marine game weighs 10 grams, alien game weighs 11, lets try to balance it with the release of 3.2 by making the marine game 10.5 and dropping the aliens to 9. It makes no sense.
Don't forget the patch where aliens could only egg in hive areas, ew.
The fade was changed into a fast-moving killer. That's all he ever was. If you are going to take that away from him, give him a new purpose to support the team.
I think the community is having a backlash to it, because 3.1 was the most balanced version of NS. With 3.2, and so many gameplay changes, you're taking a version of the game that is almost balanced, and then shaking it up. Its like taking a scale, Marine game weighs 10 grams, alien game weighs 11, lets try to balance it with the release of 3.2 by making the marine game 10.5 and dropping the aliens to 9. It makes no sense.
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If you think 3.1 was the most balanced version of NS, you really haven't been playing this game for long.
The slower blink fire rate makes using +movement a must. Personally I don't mind the change, spamming my 1 and 2 keys wasn't really the most fun part of Fading. With +movement you're not really any slower than with the old blink, but it does take some getting used to -- especially when you've been spamming your weapon keys for so long that it feels natural. That said, I don't see the point of breaking the old Fading style, while adding +movement. It would make a lot more sense to add +movement and keep having +blink as it used to be, so people who prefer using it can?
All in all 3.2 is a good update, but I'm glad the dev team decided to do a public beta first because there are a few things that should be fixed. The jury is still out on balance and I'm sure it's going to be a while before we can say something for sure. Tactics and play style needs at least a couple of months to adapt some of the bigger changes.