Regarding the 3.2 balance
coris
Join Date: 2003-07-08 Member: 18034Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-07-08 Member: 18034Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Lvl3 hmgs</div>Hi2u.
The new changes introduced with 3.2 has created a few balance changes.
The lowered fade blink rof combined with the removal of hive-dependant armour has made the marine top-tier tech too powerful vs. lvl2/3 hive aliens. Fades and aliens get absolutely devastated by LVL3 hmgs (and to a certain extent shotguns aswell).
I've seen games getting dragged out way longer than they should (we sat on 2-3 rts and had a squad of 3 good hmgers with ha and the game continued for 40 good minutes because the aliens could manage to kill us and the pg). Therefore I have these suggestions:
<ul><li>Re-introduce hive-dependant armour at 3 hives.</li><li>Turn down the HMG damage rates a notch, they're too powerful in their current state (this will also aid to address the problem with HMGs owning fades during the fight for the second hive, one could argue that dcs help a tad, but that's only going to make DCs the #1 chamber of choice again).</li></ul>
(Oh and BTW, make parasites show up on the minimap. It would help aliens to organize ambushes better and keeping track of marine-movement throughout the map. It would be a good (and logical, now with the improved minimap and all) change since it would, to some extent, help aliens to kill marine RTs better, since it's very hard to do now that they have fixed hitboxes + marine structures under attack flash red on the minimap. Lessening the HP on the RTs by 2-300 hp would also be a reasonable change).
The new changes introduced with 3.2 has created a few balance changes.
The lowered fade blink rof combined with the removal of hive-dependant armour has made the marine top-tier tech too powerful vs. lvl2/3 hive aliens. Fades and aliens get absolutely devastated by LVL3 hmgs (and to a certain extent shotguns aswell).
I've seen games getting dragged out way longer than they should (we sat on 2-3 rts and had a squad of 3 good hmgers with ha and the game continued for 40 good minutes because the aliens could manage to kill us and the pg). Therefore I have these suggestions:
<ul><li>Re-introduce hive-dependant armour at 3 hives.</li><li>Turn down the HMG damage rates a notch, they're too powerful in their current state (this will also aid to address the problem with HMGs owning fades during the fight for the second hive, one could argue that dcs help a tad, but that's only going to make DCs the #1 chamber of choice again).</li></ul>
(Oh and BTW, make parasites show up on the minimap. It would help aliens to organize ambushes better and keeping track of marine-movement throughout the map. It would be a good (and logical, now with the improved minimap and all) change since it would, to some extent, help aliens to kill marine RTs better, since it's very hard to do now that they have fixed hitboxes + marine structures under attack flash red on the minimap. Lessening the HP on the RTs by 2-300 hp would also be a reasonable change).
Comments
Anyway, I haven't played 3.2 yet, but are you sure that the number of games you have played is valid enough for the changes you ask for?
Why don't you give us some information about the players you were playing with?
They were PCW's I'd imagine - which means that he's probably well backed up. I totally agree, something needs to be done.
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Actually I haven't (yet), but I've had some games with great players on yo-clan which clearly showed the problems. There were some of the better players of the EU ns scene on both teams, however I don't feel like namedropping. The problems are pretty easy to spot from just from the changelog alone, playing 3.2 just confirms it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<b>SmoodCroozn</b> you can't argue like that. You can't balance a game with the worst players in mind, they will grow better in time. You should always keep the top-level of players in mind since that will make the game decently balanced for pretty much all levels (which has been proven to work before, mainly via 2.01).
<b>broadband</b> why not the parasite change?
If you don't mean competive play I agree. Anything else is just... well... moo. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
If you don't mean competive play I agree. Anything else is just... well... moo. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
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Competitive play/players are [almost] always the top layer of ns players in terms of skill. This is probably due to good players realizing that it's more fun and more of a challange to play a team-based game under more arranged circumstances.
Actually I haven't (yet), but I've had some games with great players on yo-clan which clearly showed the problems. There were some of the better players of the EU ns scene on both teams, however I don't feel like namedropping. The problems are pretty easy to spot from just from the changelog alone, playing 3.2 just confirms it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<b>SmoodCroozn</b> you can't argue like that. You can't balance a game with the worst players in mind, they will grow better in time. You should always keep the top-level of players in mind since that will make the game decently balanced for pretty much all levels (which has been proven to work before, mainly via 2.01).
<b>broadband</b> why not the parasite change?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Let's see, so you're saying let's balance a game on the clan minority rather than looking into the already limited servers already and seeing how the average player plays... right.
That's like saying we should we shouldn't give you free speech because you don't have as much money as Bill Gates.
Your analogy doesn't work.
Top level clan matches work because everyone pretty much has the same skill. However, in pub games, you will see people getting destroyed by 1-2 of these clanners, while they also gain res for it. Skill levels are just too different.
What you are doing is assuming that everyone will reach the heights of players like Mustang. It's been what 3 years now and how is the NS clan scene? CALNS died? And is every clanner up to the likes of Mustang even now?
So no, we can't assume all player skills are equal. That would be like saying, let's only include stairs to the bathroom. The disabled will eventually grow legs or learn to walk on their hands.
Or you could say, let's just combine all the wrestlers into one group, because since they are all human, that means their weights don't matter.
The point is you'll never have a game where player skills are perfectly the same. I've been playing NS since 1.04 and I'm still not a pro-fade master or pro-marine aimer. You can hope for people to reach this level of perfection you talk about, but it's been three years now... so how long will you wait? Starcraft has been out for say 8 years now... Do you expect everyone to have the same skill? The point you are making is ridiculous and unrealistic.
What can be done is changing the game itself. This isn't a change that you hope for or one that takes years or one that might not even happen. Nope, changing code can take less than a week and when it's done, it's done.
To clarify things, if you balance a game strictly on players, you'll never get anywhere since skill levels vary so much. But if you change the game, you can change the effectiveness of each player to reduce the gap between an average and pro.
And I state this as a fact, not whether or not it should happen.
Competitive play/players are [almost] always the top layer of ns players in terms of skill. This is probably due to good players realizing that it's more fun and more of a challange to play a team-based game under more arranged circumstances.
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did you know there are (e.g. ENSL) Beginners divisions? They play competetive too, but aren't the "top-of-skill"
But I guess what coris meant to say is that NS should be balanced for competetive play and not for publics. If it is balanced for the same skill levels (pro vs pro, nub vs. nub it doesnt matter) it will be balanced for public aswell. You cant argue with the different skills on publics. It is balanced if everyone has the same chances to win if they play at the same level.
And now Smood take public, many different skills in one team, 1 pro 3mids, 2 newcomer on marine team. Alien team got a team of 6 mid-skilled players. Who do you think will win? The Marines coz they got 1 pro? Dont be ridiculous (imho teams will be even in this scenario). Even a so called "pro" cant kill a mid-skilled 6 player team, unlike in CS.
I just want to say, NS need to be balanced for Competetiv play at the same level, and not for public and different skills. Because the usual average skill on publics on each side might turn out as the same as in a "mid-skill competetive game" (excepted stacking situations)
Seems my point's in the wrong spot too :\
That's like saying we should we shouldn't give you free speech because you don't have as much money as Bill Gates.
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That had nothing at all do to with my analogy, thank you very much.
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The point is you'll never have a game where player skills are perfectly the same. I've been playing NS since 1.04 and I'm still not a pro-fade master or pro-marine aimer. You can hope for people to reach this level of perfection you talk about, but it's been three years now... so how long will you wait? Starcraft has been out for say 8 years now... Do you expect everyone to have the same skill? The point you are making is ridiculous and unrealistic.
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I don't, but StarCraft is balanced by the creme de la creme of competative players (I recall that Blizzard hired one or two guys that were amazingly skilled that just sat and exploited every possible tactic into oblivion). You just shot yourself in the foot.
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Top level clan matches work because everyone pretty much has the same skill. However, in pub games, you will see people getting destroyed by 1-2 of these clanners, while they also gain res for it. Skill levels are just too different.
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If you balance the game to make it easier for middle-level players then they will be absolutely devastated by the better players since these will exploit each ability more for their own gain.
<b>TerRaKanE</b> I'm very aware of that. I'd still argue that most of those players are better than your avarage pubber (Like mPr, for example).
Now can you please stop derailing my thread with your anti-clan rant, thank you SmoodCroozn. If you feel this is an important discussion to have then please take it elsewhere, because it isn't what the thread is about. The examples I mentioned are also from one of EU's best pub-servers, YO-Clan. Just so we're clear about that. Ok? Thank you.
NINJA EDIT:
<b>TerRaKanE</b> since you edited your post I just wanted to say that I fully agree.
Sorry I didn't mean to hijack this thread, and read SmoodCroozn post after I posted mine, so I had to set things right in it :x
<b>Now my opinion to balance issues:</b> (and yes puzl I'm aware that it isn't finished yet)
Fade gets totaly pwnd by HMG, however SG is almost inefficient. (maybe thats coz things are a bit laggy and doesn't reg well). In 3.1 Fade was too powerful, the whole aliengame depended on fades, so its good to weaken them slightly. But atm onos and fade aren't what they are supposed to be - the offensive (but still I think aliens should have to play more like a team. And especially NOW in 3.2 they are forced to, that why everyone whines). But I have to admit that they die to easily in late-game now. As I've already mentioned in antoher thread, I dont mind the hive bonus reduction but fades and onos should gain a bit extra health or smth to prevent taking them out as easily as it is at the moment. Lerk and Skulk is good so far.
But it is as puzl said, lets talk about balance later.
my two cent...
I agree with haymo, the aliens are really missing that hive armour in 3.2. However personally I'd prefer it if alternate balance changes were made instead of reinstating hive armour. Getting the second hive up is no longer a game ender. If possible I'd like to see the higher lifeforms and 3rd hive tech in general get a slight buff.
I think the skill gap that is apparent in many games is due to the small NS community. So few severs and players mean that some of the best players are on the same servers as some of the worst. And new players could be put off by the seemingly invincible eites.
Balancing is difficult when the skill gap is so big.
In older versions even though I wasnt the best aim or skulk, I still felt useful for the team at least, now I just seem to be making up the numbers.
I have allso noticed that these 'Pro' players have the biggest negative impact on a game when they play as marine.
There is a difference between balancing with top tier players and making the game accessible for new players though. Neither should overrule each other and both are equally important, however doing 1 does not mean you're removing the other.
Generally speaking most clanners even in the lowest tier of NS are better than pubbers. Joining a clan shows you actually investing in improvement and allows you to begin the process of become a "good player." The reason you've played for 3 years and not improved is because you do not know how to improve. There is a more indepth process that you must adhere to other than simply just playing the game regularly and joining a clan makes this far, far easier. Your experience will open new doorways into game mechanics that you have not previously imagined. This process is in no way shape or form <b>not</b> fun as some might have you believe. The process of self improvement and seeing the result of it, is one of the most satisfying experiences out there. Of course you'll find this hard to grasp as I have essentially just said you're bad at this game. Don't take it as an insult, just take it as a fact that generally speaking, like in any sport, players are generally better when they play at a level beyond just public. It's the same reason the UEFA don't listen to kids on the school ground when they're considering changing the rules in football.
As for coris's points on balance, I'm in no real position to comment as I've not actually played 3.2. However if experience has shown us anything, it's that given time teams will find a way to adapt. At the start of free upgrades, even after the balance patches, marines were struggling to find the right formula, by the end of 3.1 marines were actually capable of holding out versus two hive aliens till prototech. Aliens will need to learn to place more emphasis on their early game and better control node pressure, a job few teams competantly do early game, should they wish to stem marines midgame. Whilst a minor nerf to the HMG may help balance the bigger picture, I hope that this change may encourage some more experimentation from people when it comes to alien round tactics.
You can't balance a game with the worst players in mind, they will grow better in time.
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Unfortunately this is not so. Not ALL people grow better, some take a long time, and (hopefully) there will always be NEW players. Aliens are harder to play than marines starting out, because most people have FPS experience with a human. Aliens are a little trickier because you have to get used to playing a little differently. New players mostly go on marines, then try aliens (not all the time, but mostly.) I haven't played NS 3.2 yet, but will definitly try to play it today...
In my eyes, only thing thats making fades be lesser images of themselfs in this version. Is the 2/3hive armor nerf. Blinking is just something you need to used to. Doubt im the only one who have, via use of nifty new +movement command. You're not even forced to use celerity, as we almost always were in 3.1. I almost don't even notice the difference anymore, only ocasion when you actually notice it is when you blink straight upwards. Which doesnt happen that often.
I'm not extremely sure as of yet if that is a bad thing or not. Cause in the amount of pugs/pcw's i've played marines actually have a larger chance to win the game against 2 hives. Its no longer, "they have 2 hives, sell ip's"-way of thinking. Fades/Onos'es actually die making the game have more dept than it did in 3.1.
Granted, even with 3 hives aliens have to actually pull off some teamwork to finish the game, instead of 1/2 fades dominating the whole rine team. (UMBRA ANYONE? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> )
But yeah, lets give it another week or so before making definite conclusions.
I have two words for you coris. "Be Nice".
Unfortunately this is not so. Not ALL people grow better, some take a long time, and (hopefully) there will always be NEW players. Aliens are harder to play than marines starting out, because most people have FPS experience with a human. Aliens are a little trickier because you have to get used to playing a little differently. New players mostly go on marines, then try aliens (not all the time, but mostly.) I haven't played NS 3.2 yet, but will definitly try to play it today...
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That's contradicting what you just said; players are bound to improve while they play the game; however some players (like myself) analyze demos of themselves playing (and demos of matches to find gain a better understanding of the NS fundamentals such as the res-game)and find weaknesses where they need improvement. Obviously they will become better faster than others. It depends on how focused on your own improvement you are.
@Ben; the problem here lies that aliens have a lot harder time to keep the nodes in this version because of the new rt changes (can't hide behind rts as a skulk anymore) along with the updated minimap which instantly shows all marines what nodes are under attack.
@Ots - I'm quite fond of the new blink change myself; but since the fade now need twice the time to gain full speed doing hit and run attacks vs squads of marines are even more out of the question than it was in 3.1. It's hard even if you have your team to back you up because without the second hive armour gain hmgs chew through you like butter.
It's the combination of aliens having a harder time keeping the nodes down, fades not being able to attack squads and the hive armour buff that's causing these imbalances.
Unfortunately this is not so. Not ALL people grow better, some take a long time, and (hopefully) there will always be NEW players. Aliens are harder to play than marines starting out, because most people have FPS experience with a human. Aliens are a little trickier because you have to get used to playing a little differently. New players mostly go on marines, then try aliens (not all the time, but mostly.) I haven't played NS 3.2 yet, but will definitly try to play it today...
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Yeah I still suck and have done since 1.x days.
I agree with Mouse on his changes particularly not re-instating hive armour.
Previously aliens could and most likely would end a game after the 2nd hive went up. Now there appears to be a change of focus from trying to end the game and hiting marine start to attempting to secure the 3rd hive.
On the marine side its no longer a lost cause after the 2nd hive goes up. Once it is realized that preventing the 2nd hive from going up just isnt going to happen focus is changed to securing the 3rd hive, res control and teching. When commanding I noticed that I dont need to spend as much res on guns as in 3.1 but this allows me to keep up tech wise against aliens.
The games are lasting longer but I think they're more enjoyable for both sides.