Ns_shebad7

NoArms_NoCookiesNoArms_NoCookies Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34547Members Posts: 48
concept is looking for a mapper
hi ppl

So this is my concept for ns_shebaD7. The map concept tries to setup an plausible environment. I tried to build a map concept into a story. If this map will ever be implemented, I want it to feel like there have been dozens of people moving along the corridors, having an everyday life, just some hours ago. It IS a challenge smile-fix.gif

And this is the Background story. (perhaps I will write a whole story if I find the time)


Spacestation Sheba is a very important deepspace station, far away from any kharaa appearance so far. It supplies many starsystems with trade options and is the lynchpin for long an shortrange Spaceoperations. It consists of a central-habitat which is connected by a tram-system with several docking stations.

An emergency call from sheba station was picked up by a TSA Relay-station: A Class 5 Transportship appeard on shebas sensors several hours ago. It was not possible to conact the ship, or gain any life signs from it. But anyhow the ships emergency routines seemed to be intact. A permanent bonfire of Warning signals was fired by the ship, while its autopilot systems made contact to Dockingsystation 7 requesting for docking instructions. Sheba authorities underestimated the menace which was closing in.

A small securtity team was send to determine what has happend on the transporter. But the moment it docked the Transporthips doors where ripped away like beeing made of paper and hordes of kharaa started flooding into the station. When xeno alarm ripped the security officer out of his dreams the only thing left to do, was to quarantine Docking Bay 7 immediately. No time was wasted on evacuation and so the massive blastdoors rammed down, cutting a tram-wagon in two.

Mission Briefing on a TSA station, located on a so far peacfull planet in the Gonram system:

"Ok men, listen up, we have got an important job to do.

Your all well known Sheba station has been attacked by kharaa some hours ago. They came in with an infected Transporter. They manged to quarantine it in Dockingbay 7. So far so bad. There is no way to get into that docking station from Sheba habitat anylonger. A massive 100 inches blastdoor has cut D7 from the rest of the station. That is where we come in ... We will have to use a Docking bay to get inside. We don't know how many kharaa are inside of D7, and where they are located. So we will have to use a gunboat as drop-in and as commando station as well. We don't have much time ... sooner or later the bacteria will find a way over to the main habitat. And as far as I know, noone of us want see our weekend amorous adventure site to be taken over by some vanilla gorges ... LET's MOVE OUT !"
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Comments

  • MasterGMasterG gmfbst Join Date: 2003-08-24 Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 586 Fully active user
    Great thing you got going there, in your mind. Now get it built and released!
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  • NoArms_NoCookiesNoArms_NoCookies Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34547Members Posts: 48
  • NoArms_NoCookiesNoArms_NoCookies Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34547Members Posts: 48
    edited July 2005
    ok ... most icons should be obvious ^^

    - the green stuff is infestation, or something that has been destroyed by the kharaa
    - the yellow stars are weldables
    - dark gray doors can not be opened


    The one dark gray door to the infected ship can not be opened ... but there is no need to, because it has been destroyed by kharaa wink-fix.gif

    The very dark blue stuff in the background does not have to be mapped, it is there to show the shape of the station and the ships. Although it would be VERY nice to see some panorama windows in the central terminal which allow to look at the docked starsships :o ... but that would just be a plus ^^



    I really would like to map that myself ^^ but I lack the skills, and the time smile-fix.gif So I hope some very good mapper will feel appointed to work together with me. I could imagine to make more of things like this ^^

    Any constructive critisicm is welcome !
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    edited July 2005
    Looks like a pretty cool concept, and that's a really well done diagram. I don't think you will see too many people starting new maps at this point, but maybe for source?

    Do you have any 2d art skills? Maybe make some concept art as inspiration. I haven't seen many designsfrom non mappers that have turned into full projects, but the more somebody would have to work with the better your chances are I would think.

    A few things about your layout. It seems like you have too many nodes in it. I'd also be a little leery about only having one connection from the infected transport station to the rest of the map. Maybe have it send out a couple of umbilicals?
  • mrinsanemrinsane Join Date: 2004-06-21 Member: 29448Members Posts: 66
    very promisign design if i could really take advantage of the hl engine i would do it but im still learning hl 1

    although i have alot of plane mapping experince hopefulyl someone else will look and pick this up
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members Posts: 7,019
    14 nodes is too many, gimmie game for aliens.

    Transport hive is brutal. Both unsiegeable and having only one exit, that will take some creativity to make work. I love the design of transit.
    O_O image
  • Lt_GravityLt_Gravity Join Date: 2003-04-28 Member: 15909Members Posts: 1,594
    nice concept. what I like most is the circular design of the centre area. but we all know its a pain to do curved stuff in hl1 and we all know it wont get any better with hl2 sad-fix.gif

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  • NoArms_NoCookiesNoArms_NoCookies Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34547Members Posts: 48
    thx for you thoughts ppl ^^

    The resnode thing is true but will be hard to do. I yet don't know which restowers can be taken out, but well we will see ^^

    About the circular layout ... well it does not have to be curved, you could realize it by a hexagon. (although that would not be that pretty ^^)

    I will add a passage to the infected transportship just like the TSA-Gunboart has one. But it will not reach the bride, because a direct connection would be a too long corridor with nothing in it :/ I will think about that.

    I could try to paint some areas of the map, how they exist in my mind, but I don't want to pre-set too much. It think a mapper would like to take his personal touch into the map.

    I will work on it this evening ... plz go on until then ^^
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members Posts: 7,019
    edited July 2005
    Take out central terminal, escape pods, infected transport, and docking bay 3, and move the node at priviate spaceship to transit station. 10 is a manageable ammount.

    Control room is already an alien gimmie node because it needs to be welded or jetpacked into, and all the nodes so close to MS and the hives just encourage turtling because they allow the teams to hoard res without fighting for it.

    Central terminal is enough of a prize without a node because it allows a clear LoS down into two hive rooms, which would seriously hurt alien movement.
    O_O image
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Jul 10 2005, 04:08 AM)
    Central terminal is enough of a prize without a node because it allows a clear LoS down into two hive rooms, which would seriously hurt alien movement.

    I don't think it would work to have clear line of sight down those hallways in the final design, for speed and gameplay concerns both. I'd imagine that the central termina area would be raised enough that sloping hallways would create vis blockers.
  • NEX9NEX9 Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44299Members Posts: 1,642
    edited July 2005
    thats acctuly really perdy now, i would play it, Ooow crits ok, i woudl say take a bit of string, measure it out to be about 15 cneter meeters, in length, now say that 15 centers reprcents a 15 second rine full sprint and a 10 second sulk full sprint

    now weav eit thro all the coridors, to get to said key points, you will see alliens are at a disadvantage in a lot of cases here

    and consitering aliens have to sacroice ground to set up a ambush they may or may not work, you have put htem in a roguh spot, so i say the extra rez nodes ar ea bit over board but maybe one or tw oextra tahn normals would be fine but not 3-4 ish extra
    Stop by see some of my latest works in maya, ill even evently host my WIP's and old old works.
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    search under digital art works
  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation Posts: 3,225
    I would love to take this one on. I really would.

    Maybe once I've finished ns_solace and the second mapping concept I've got (wouldn't mind a team for that one so it might get done quickly) then I'd be up for working on this...

    might be a while though... sad-fix.gif
  • NoArms_NoCookiesNoArms_NoCookies Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34547Members Posts: 48
    edited July 2005
    wow NEX9 :-b it is a REAL pain to my eyes to read your stuff man. I'm no native speaker, so plz make it readable smile-fix.gif

    But what I took from your post is:

    Aliens are in a disadvantage, because marines and aliens have their first contact in pro-marine territory ?

    And 1 or 2 res towers more then normal would be ok then, to balance this out ? ~~
  • NoArms_NoCookiesNoArms_NoCookies Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34547Members Posts: 48
    edited July 2005
    So here the first review ^^

    I removed 2 restowers: private Spaceship an the second restower in the Transporter.

    moved terminal resnode to waiting room 1. I agree on the argument that the resnode there would overpower terminal, just like Generator-room is on ns_nothing. It IS a central position, and now still allows to siege 3 resnodes (but not automaticly hold them) and has very short ways to almost everywhere.

    I added a new way into Transpoter-bridge. The brighter ground in the sidebay of the Ship is the second floor, but is was destroyed by Kharaa, so most of the floor is gone.

    changed some vents, and connected the fuelstorages.



    I also tried to paint my view of central terminal (cause I have no scanner~~) ... it didn't work well, what was pain :| and took too much time. But I will post it.
  • NoArms_NoCookiesNoArms_NoCookies Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34547Members Posts: 48
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    edited July 2005
    That's pretty sweet smile-fix.gif
    What program are you using to make these?
  • NaigelNaigel Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18376Members, Constellation Posts: 651
    This looks very... VERY interesting!
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  • NoArms_NoCookiesNoArms_NoCookies Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34547Members Posts: 48
    But still no mapper in sight sad-fix.gif

    come on people ^^ give it a chance :o
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    QUOTE (NoArms NoCookies @ Jul 10 2005, 04:20 PM)
    But still no mapper in sight sad-fix.gif

    come on people ^^ give it a chance :o

    Just keep it out there. Making the map itself could take a year anyways, so don't rush it. smile-fix.gif
  • NEX9NEX9 Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44299Members Posts: 1,642
    err can i get a infestaion welded ramp door at docking bay 1,

    also you dont have to take the nodes out as such, just drop in dumbie ones with no build textures on em, and then stick a few creates next to the node but tip one over and off onto the node blocking it
    Stop by see some of my latest works in maya, ill even evently host my WIP's and old old works.
    http://nex17.deviantart.com/
    search under digital art works
  • nogoodnicknamenogoodnickname Join Date: 2005-03-23 Member: 46172Members Posts: 480
    thats interesting
    real nick: RNG
  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation Posts: 3,225
    Maybe you'd be better at putting a team together. I'd probably have enough time to put myself down on that list but not to take it on solo. Plus the team'd get my mapping critique and advice as you work.

    That's about the most I can offer, though. And even then it's purely because this map needs to be made...
  • Soylent_greenSoylent_green Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11220Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,875 Advanced user
    edited July 2005
    Circular symmetry is not practical in HL. Not so much because it's hard to do, but because you get a zillion errors when you overboard with off axis polygons.

    First and formost there are many many many clip bugs that aren't at all fixable that can lead to players walking into walls, getting stuck if they duck, solid regions that look empty and so on. On the ground you can barely have off axis brushes at all as it will become like an irregular stair case(some of those invisble "steps" are taller than 16 units so you feel like you walk into an invisible step you can't walk over.)

    Then there's the problem with occlusion culling not being very predictable when you include a lot of polygons that aren't aligned to 2 axes.

    Texture alignment is a huge issue. It is not allways even possible to align textures to a surface in VHE so that it fits to the neighbouring textures without unreasonable stretching so it's not just a matter of time.

    With some tests I've done using circular symmetry I've found that faces often become unecesairilly split and that this split goes along all the way around the object causing many hundreds of wpoly's that aren't needed. This is not predictable, change a tiny thing and suddenly your nice 400-500 r_speeds are in the 1k region.

    Hexagonal and octagonal symmetry work much better but avoiding completely off axis surfaces is still important. Surfaces aligned to at least one axis are much less likely to cause problems than surfaces that are completely arbitrary.

    Not to mention the large amount of planes that can't be reused with circular symmetry. Which means you will hit HL engine limits much sooner than you would for a normal map.

    It's infinetly easier to throw up concept images that look nice than to actually make the map.

    To make this map and to make it well you will need someone who is very skilled at making something look good with only a small amount of polygons, especially when it comes to texturing. Who is willing to build a map using someone elses ideas instead of their own(getting ideas is'nt the hard part, actually implementing them is) and doesn't suffer from the "not from here" mindset (a lot of people and especially corporations violently oppose using others ideas or inventions for no rational reason).
  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation Posts: 3,225
    Helpful info.

    I'm the sort of person who manually vertnips most shapes to fit them to the grid, anyway, but it's definitely nice to know the reasoning behind the necessity for perfection smile-fix.gif
  • KungFuDiscoMonkeyKungFuDiscoMonkey Creator of ns_altair 日本福岡県 Join Date: 2003-03-15 Member: 14555Members, NS1 Playtester, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 2,589 Advanced user
    A very nice design but not very feasable for the current Half-Life engine. The design could potentially be more feasable with Half-life 2, but even with HL2 it is difficult and frustrating to work with lots of curved shapes.
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  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation Posts: 3,225
    Such hateful lies sad-fix.gif

    I think you're taking the circular motif a bit too literally. There would be ways to get the shape without comprimising gameplay too much.
  • kolokolkolokol Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9166Members Posts: 476
    I was kind of hoping displacements would allow me to create circular tunnels for hl2, do you know if thats possible? As for mapping something like this the best you can do is probably to use simple angles. i.e. 90 and 45, but use them so that the overall shape is maintained.
    claxt for the win...
  • NoArms_NoCookiesNoArms_NoCookies Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34547Members Posts: 48
    edited July 2005
    @Soylent green

    As I already stated: It does not have to be circular. Having curved rooms and corridors, is not why I did this layout, as you might take from my first post.

    And there are mappers which are running out of ideas. This thread is why i started with that at all.

    I think ... in Software development: ideas are much better paid then any specific skills in a limited workspace. (If anyone is trying to work as a professional later on) Because there IS a lack of good ideas and new concepts.

    Exactly that is, why i would like to know, if the map is good in a different way then some people might think ^^ I want to know if a map concept built into a story and a structure that is a plausible building, will help a map to gain some more atmosphere and if it is possible to balance such a map.

    @Crispy

    A team would be nice :| problem is: I don't know anybody here ^^ I was just reading mapping forum for weeks because I'm totally bored in the late evenings, after learning for my math intermediate diploma, for 8 hours ~~ I would really love to make something like this (because my dream job would be with Gamedesign ^^) but I won't have time for the next 7 weeks :|
  • SgtBarlowSgtBarlow Level Designer Join Date: 2003-11-13 Member: 22749Members, NS2 Developer Posts: 1,122 Fully active user
    I guess I could start this map in 2 weeks time when I am free.
    This layout is totally doable but of course I would make the map bigger as it looks like getting from one place to another is too easy. I have thought up a mothed for this round circular problem, Its a weard hexigan kinda shape I have in mind to create the general shape and put in the nessaserry VIS blocks.

    Needs some interior samples though, Some rought sketches. It would also require a texture artist as I cant imagine any textures being suitable for makeing up the trams.
  • Lt_GravityLt_Gravity Join Date: 2003-04-28 Member: 15909Members Posts: 1,594
    QUOTE (Soylent green @ Jul 11 2005, 06:35 AM)
    Circular symmetry is not practical in HL. Not so much because it's hard to do, but because you get a zillion errors when you overboard with off axis polygons.

    depends on HOW MUCH curved architecture you use and its also directly related to the skill of the mapper. there are some people out there creating a error with each brush they touch.
    but there are also people out there "understanding" the engine, people who can tell you r_speeds just by looking at a screenshot wink-fix.gif

    crispy, that makes two of us. biggrin-fix.gif

    one thing that would be REALLY helpful:
    tons of concepts. because you can work more efficient if you allready have something instead of working outevery detail by your own.

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