tons of concepts :> <b>This</b> is what I want to do ^^
So if you will be still there in 2 month ^^ I will start to work some thoughts out that I already have ^^ I would love to work together with some of you guys then <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well, here is my crappy attempt to just rotate to remove many angles to make it more doable, Slight extension to make it a bit bigger.... Hive on the right could do with a bit more distance from the bottom hive to make space for more small rooms and bits to go through.
Im bing lazy to do more, Im hot, Hungry, Titred and depressed <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You're going to have to eventually have part of the map, mapped onto a square grid. There is no avoiding it. You can make some round parts and such but it gets painful the more of it that is not mapped to a grid. Game engines do not support nurbs.
I have no idea ^^ cause I never got deep into mapping, but thats why I'm here and discuss about this <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
90 degree and 45 degree angles are easy, beyond that it gets a bit more difficult. Anything that has lots of different non standard angles tends to get messy and error prone.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
I think the size of the map is ok. The problem with hexagons is you end up having to do a lot of 30 and 60 degree angles. However, when you are mapping in the halflife engine, you have to have everything aligned to the grid. You can't make a 30 degree angle or a 60 degree angle exactly with everything aligned to the grid, so you have to come up with some sort of consistent approximation, and this is hard to do.
I think your design might be doable, but I would want to rework it a little. I'd first rotate the major axis of the map to be horizontal, so that the infested transport ship is vertical, then I would rotate the excape pods areas and the private docking bays areas to be horizontal, then I would think about moving the docking bay hive into the right hand side of the escape pods area to get it further away from the infested transport ship.
If you want to do a circular design, I would recommend trying something octagonal. Octagons are a lot easier to work with, because 45 degree angles are easy to align to the grid.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
I dunno, I might try playing around with it a little tonight. I don't think you'd have to redo the whole thing. I think you can keep the hexagonal(ish) design, but I would definitely make the two rectangular rooms aligned to the grid. The docking bays I think you can get away with on the 30 degree angles because they are roundish, so it isn't as essential to align them (half of the angles are going to odd anyways.) If the major axis was horizontal, you could make one docking bay, then make the other by reflecting it over the axis, and adding infestation.
it is possible to do a map like this with many angled corridors and areas without to much trouble. however, to keep it working and to keep the r_speeds low the map would have to be very simple. a 45° corridor is no problem. the problem starts where you want to add details to the walls or to detail areas.
when you start creating such areas you might find it very easy and maybe you will ask yourself "what is this gravity guy talking about?" but after some hours you will notice a problem: you cant fit two angled corridors and an area together, walls, floor and ceiling doesnt fit together or you will have to make some really insane cuts trough entire brush groups, resulting in nothing but face errors.
trust me, while creating ns_source I tried many different methods to achieve a not so straight layout. it didnt worked most of the time but some areas got a nice touch (accidently).
when you walk through the map you will notice that nearly everything is straight. but not by the first look.
however, completely angled corridors or areas are a bad idea. but you can work around, as long as your CONNECTIONS ARE STRAIGHT there should be no problem.
the player doesnt know if he is walking in vertical, horizontal or angled direction to the map anyway. if you rotate a complete map 45° then its straight ingame <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*ducks to prevent getting hit*
btw: this is one of the most detailed layouts I have ever seen. all it needs now are some nice pictures that inspire the mappers brain.
ROFL, Im more awake now and read my own post, poorly written. I said I was "t i t-red" instead of tired lol.
Anyways. You should not concern yourself about the overview with it haveing many curves, The level can still be made so that the path is almost a circle, Doing areas on angles is actually good because I found that squareing off to make corners in an angled corridoor is good for slipping in a place for much needed cover, misc items/props/nodes or other details as well as linking to other corridoors, I am trying this out on a map I am doing and seems pretty good.
I have some pretty good ideas for creating visblocks along angled corridoors that are long so they apear shorter so aliens wont get owned.
ns_siege_generator has a large quater section spiral staircase, the walls look very very round, The r_speeds are very very low and that took me by surprise, I thought it was not going to work when I did it but I seem to have developed a method for low poly round walls, It's not hard to do.
In the image below, the yellow lines mark out the original corridoor that was boring, As mentioned abouve, it is hard to get detail on angles and can be messy. In this I added small sections to the sides in the angled corridoor to break it up, They line up with the grid and add the missing detail, the bigger space on mine has a status screen for cargo and a cargo transit access door in the floor for accessing the underground trian of the cargo transit system. A say a check point, basicly with these spaces on the angles you can add more eyecandy on a stright while the path to the side is still on a 45 degree angle, You can put anything in those spaces and they are good cover points depending on witch direction your going. This is only an example on a real short angled corridoor.
So you think if, I undlay a grid and try to make connections between rooms and corridors (not the rooms and corridors itself) in a 45 oder 90 degree angle it would make things much easier ?
I really need a scanner ~~ Drawing 3D scenes with just a 2D Graphik programm is a hard job to do :o It takes too much time ... and the results do not legitimate the time spend with it ~~ So more pictures may take a while.
@SgtBarlow, so you would try to build angled corridors with aligned squares in it, to connect to other angled corridors/rooms ?
by viewing over the map ... I think it will be easy to make an octagon from it. Adding 2 additional areas, making the map slightly bigger at the same time. Only thing I dislike that it then comes back to square like layout :| ... I will try that tomorrow ^^ its 1 am here now <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I would not do angled rooms at all, Angled corridoors are okay but plain unless you add these odd little squareoffs in one or 2 points half way along the corridoor. A small one will host pipes and wiers. A medium one could be host to some small screens or a small hatch/vent/pannels. A large one can host a place for a res node, large screens, Window with a scene, A fake door/s or a door/s leading off as stright so it would look like a slanted 'K' or a slanted 'T'. Your just makeing the corridoor more open with these little side places that could become healing bases for gorges too as well as cover as on your current layout their is little cover in the corridoors around the center of the map.
So you think if, I undlay a grid and try to make connections between rooms and corridors (not the rooms and corridors itself) in a 45 oder 90 degree angle it would make things much easier ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> shure.
I should make a short layout suggestion when I get home, not related to the map but so everyone can understand what is easy to do and which layout elements have to be avoided.
moultanos suggestion is better but I wouldnt do it that way either. still too complicated.
Ok ppl ... here is a reviewed alpha-concept version, so you know what I'm doing ^^ It should have 90% 45/90° angles (rooms and corridors)
It has some nice parts which are:<ul><li>Central Station<ul><li>it isn't <b>that</b> central anylonger</li><li>has just 3 entrances now, which makes it better defendable</li><li>still has fast ways to transit and pods (which makes sence)</li></ul></li><li>Transit station<ul><li>enlarged departure platform</li><li>added connections between the tunnels</li><li>rearranged trams</li></ul></li><li>Waiting areas<ul><li>Waiting rooms are now directly connected to the ships bridges</li><li>this is closer to a "real" spacestation (<-lol at that), cause you don't need to pass the goods station (Docking Bay) anylonger</li><li>it solves the "one way out" problem</li><li>Could have windows, wt watch into the Docking-Bays ^^</li></ul></li><li>resnodes<ul><li>they are distributed in a better way. </li><li>I think ... Docking Bay 2 needs a node now, cause the outer octagon will have unopenable doors in it, to make ways longer</li></ul></li></ul>I dislike what is supposed to be "first aid" and "control room" ... its just ... ugly ~~
urinalcakeCan't work a sound cardUnited StatesJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7799Members
This thread has been mentioned because of it's interest to the show hosts on the show 'Forum Junkies' by NSRadio.net with urinal-cake, SSJReNe` and ds^depot.
Check out the live recording and download over at <a href='http://www.NSRadio.net' target='_blank'>http://www.NSRadio.net</a>.
The thing is, you don't have to make every corridor a normal corridor. You can keep the layout and add in service access corridors where you need to have a quicker route. For example, you say you need an RT near to Infected TS. It's true that the Hive should probably have a second RT, but you could just as easily throw out a service tunnel to one of the Escape Pod sections.
Also, the Commander view could get annoying with the overlapping corridors. You'd have to have them a reasonable vertical distance apart to allow the Com to drop meds and the like.
yes you are right, vents and service tunnels are not in yet I could make a shotcut from I-T-Ship to the escape pods.
Hm ... there are 3 positions, where the corridors overlap. I think it won't be that bad, because the upper corridor should be very narrow (its just a personnel hallway) while the corridors in the outer octagon should be larger (they are cargo transport routes)
What do you think ?
And any comments/ideas for "first aid" and "control room" ? ^^
People ... normally don't life in a labyrinth ... nor do they build some to work in ~~ I can try to shorten the lines of view ... but I won't go far with that, because it is unnatural. And i can add little hideouts too, although I think this is part of the more detailed work, which is not part of the concept at this early stage.
When the overall layout is done, i will start to make a bigger view of each room, or area of corridors, including boxes, pipes, wall noses and so on. espacially the outer octagon will have a lot of pipes, maintaince corners and dark areas etc, because it is a service area, not made for public eyes. The central octagon, terminal and all places which have lots of people travelling and working in, should have a brighter atmosphere by concept. Of course some areas have been messed up by rampanging kharaas. Transit station in particular, which used to be a busy place, should really have an apokalyptic feeling. The destoyed station and the crushed trams must look menacing.
I still hope this attempt to plan a Layout will lead somewhere <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Just remember, narrow hallways are generally frowned upon for gameplay reasons, particularly for competitive maps. For the overlapping areas, I'd suggest thinking about making the top level a catwalk over the bottom level.
hm yes, a catwalk would be possible and nice though ^^
@Naigel
Well you could just do that with a GL, because there is a stair between them ... but I have to admit that they are too close together. But the layout of first aid and controlroom is not finished yet.
Comments
So if you will be still there in 2 month ^^ I will start to work some thoughts out that I already have ^^ I would love to work together with some of you guys then <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Hive on the right could do with a bit more distance from the bottom hive to make space for more small rooms and bits to go through.
Im bing lazy to do more, Im hot, Hungry, Titred and depressed <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
you know ... my aim was to <b>not</b> have a square map ~~
But I think you are right about the size of the map. Anyone else agrees on that?
I have no idea ^^ cause I never got deep into mapping, but thats why I'm here and discuss about this <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Some guidlines would be helpfull ^^
I think your design might be doable, but I would want to rework it a little. I'd first rotate the major axis of the map to be horizontal, so that the infested transport ship is vertical, then I would rotate the excape pods areas and the private docking bays areas to be horizontal, then I would think about moving the docking bay hive into the right hand side of the escape pods area to get it further away from the infested transport ship.
If you want to do a circular design, I would recommend trying something octagonal. Octagons are a lot easier to work with, because 45 degree angles are easy to align to the grid.
Seems like I have to do a complete review, with focus on an underlying grid.
it is possible to do a map like this with many angled corridors and areas without to much trouble. however, to keep it working and to keep the r_speeds low the map would have to be very simple. a 45° corridor is no problem. the problem starts where you want to add details to the walls or to detail areas.
when you start creating such areas you might find it very easy and maybe you will ask yourself "what is this gravity guy talking about?"
but after some hours you will notice a problem: you cant fit two angled corridors and an area together, walls, floor and ceiling doesnt fit together or you will have to make some really insane cuts trough entire brush groups, resulting in nothing but face errors.
trust me, while creating ns_source I tried many different methods to achieve a not so straight layout. it didnt worked most of the time but some areas got a nice touch (accidently).
when you walk through the map you will notice that nearly everything is straight. but not by the first look.
however, completely angled corridors or areas are a bad idea. but you can work around, as long as your CONNECTIONS ARE STRAIGHT there should be no problem.
the player doesnt know if he is walking in vertical, horizontal or angled direction to the map anyway. if you rotate a complete map 45° then its straight ingame <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*ducks to prevent getting hit*
btw: this is one of the most detailed layouts I have ever seen. all it needs now are some nice pictures that inspire the mappers brain.
Anyways. You should not concern yourself about the overview with it haveing many curves, The level can still be made so that the path is almost a circle, Doing areas on angles is actually good because I found that squareing off to make corners in an angled corridoor is good for slipping in a place for much needed cover, misc items/props/nodes or other details as well as linking to other corridoors, I am trying this out on a map I am doing and seems pretty good.
I have some pretty good ideas for creating visblocks along angled corridoors that are long so they apear shorter so aliens wont get owned.
ns_siege_generator has a large quater section spiral staircase, the walls look very very round, The r_speeds are very very low and that took me by surprise, I thought it was not going to work when I did it but I seem to have developed a method for low poly round walls, It's not hard to do.
In the image below, the yellow lines mark out the original corridoor that was boring, As mentioned abouve, it is hard to get detail on angles and can be messy.
In this I added small sections to the sides in the angled corridoor to break it up, They line up with the grid and add the missing detail, the bigger space on mine has a status screen for cargo and a cargo transit access door in the floor for accessing the underground trian of the cargo transit system. A say a check point, basicly with these spaces on the angles you can add more eyecandy on a stright while the path to the side is still on a 45 degree angle, You can put anything in those spaces and they are good cover points depending on witch direction your going.
This is only an example on a real short angled corridoor.
So you think if, I undlay a grid and try to make connections between rooms and corridors (not the rooms and corridors itself) in a 45 oder 90 degree angle it would make things much easier ?
I really need a scanner ~~ Drawing 3D scenes with just a 2D Graphik programm is a hard job to do :o It takes too much time ... and the results do not legitimate the time spend with it ~~ So more pictures may take a while.
@SgtBarlow, so you would try to build angled corridors with aligned squares in it, to connect to other angled corridors/rooms ?
and you are able to approximate curved stuff ?
A small one will host pipes and wiers.
A medium one could be host to some small screens or a small hatch/vent/pannels.
A large one can host a place for a res node, large screens, Window with a scene, A fake door/s or a door/s leading off as stright so it would look like a slanted 'K' or a slanted 'T'.
Your just makeing the corridoor more open with these little side places that could become healing bases for gorges too as well as cover as on your current layout their is little cover in the corridoors around the center of the map.
<img src='http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~rmoulton/ns_shebanew.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
And here are my gameplay comments on the resulting layout.
<img src='http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~rmoulton/ns_shebanew_annotated.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
So you think if, I undlay a grid and try to make connections between rooms and corridors (not the rooms and corridors itself) in a 45 oder 90 degree angle it would make things much easier ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
shure.
I should make a short layout suggestion when I get home, not related to the map but so everyone can understand what is easy to do and which layout elements have to be avoided.
moultanos suggestion is better but I wouldnt do it that way either. still too complicated.
It should have 90% 45/90° angles (rooms and corridors)
It has some nice parts which are:<ul><li>Central Station<ul><li>it isn't <b>that</b> central anylonger</li><li>has just 3 entrances now, which makes it better defendable</li><li>still has fast ways to transit and pods (which makes sence)</li></ul></li><li>Transit station<ul><li>enlarged departure platform</li><li>added connections between the tunnels</li><li>rearranged trams</li></ul></li><li>Waiting areas<ul><li>Waiting rooms are now directly connected to the ships bridges</li><li>this is closer to a "real" spacestation (<-lol at that), cause you don't need to pass the goods station (Docking Bay) anylonger</li><li>it solves the "one way out" problem</li><li>Could have windows, wt watch into the Docking-Bays ^^</li></ul></li><li>resnodes<ul><li>they are distributed in a better way. </li><li>I think ... Docking Bay 2 needs a node now, cause the outer octagon will have unopenable doors in it, to make ways longer</li></ul></li></ul>I dislike what is supposed to be "first aid" and "control room" ... its just ... ugly ~~
Check out the live recording and download over at <a href='http://www.NSRadio.net' target='_blank'>http://www.NSRadio.net</a>.
Also, the Commander view could get annoying with the overlapping corridors. You'd have to have them a reasonable vertical distance apart to allow the Com to drop meds and the like.
Hm ... there are 3 positions, where the corridors overlap. I think it won't be that bad, because the upper corridor should be very narrow (its just a personnel hallway) while the corridors in the outer octagon should be larger (they are cargo transport routes)
What do you think ?
And any comments/ideas for "first aid" and "control room" ? ^^
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
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good
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hope you get the idea.
People ... normally don't life in a labyrinth ... nor do they build some to work in ~~
I can try to shorten the lines of view ... but I won't go far with that, because it is unnatural. And i can add little hideouts too, although I think this is part of the more detailed work, which is not part of the concept at this early stage.
When the overall layout is done, i will start to make a bigger view of each room, or area of corridors, including boxes, pipes, wall noses and so on. espacially the outer octagon will have a lot of pipes, maintaince corners and dark areas etc, because it is a service area, not made for public eyes. The central octagon, terminal and all places which have lots of people travelling and working in, should have a brighter atmosphere by concept. Of course some areas have been messed up by rampanging kharaas. Transit station in particular, which used to be a busy place, should really have an apokalyptic feeling. The destoyed station and the crushed trams must look menacing.
I still hope this attempt to plan a Layout will lead somewhere <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
@Naigel
Well you could just do that with a GL, because there is a stair between them ... but I have to admit that they are too close together. But the layout of first aid and controlroom is not finished yet.