If You Commit Suicide, Will You Go To Heaven?
Depot
The ModFather Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7956Members
The ModFather Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7956Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Discussion religious beliefs about it</div> <b>If You Commit Suicide, Will You Go To Heaven?</b>
I have often pondered this question, not because I contemplated it, but because I've lost friends to it over the years. When men of the cloth were asked by me, I always got different answers, so I'm quite confused on this.
I more or less believe this philosophy: <b>Life belongs to God.</b> It is <u>never</u> our place to take our own life or someone else's life.
Discuss...
I have often pondered this question, not because I contemplated it, but because I've lost friends to it over the years. When men of the cloth were asked by me, I always got different answers, so I'm quite confused on this.
I more or less believe this philosophy: <b>Life belongs to God.</b> It is <u>never</u> our place to take our own life or someone else's life.
Discuss...
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
The common sense would say that what you do with yourself is in the hands of you and not anybody elses. Yet Christianity sees it as a moral sin, which is why sometimes there have been cases where some denominations have even refused to bury people who have committed suicide. I don't know if there even happens that much of suicides in the eastern world, really.. You really don't read about people in India hanging themselves or .357's put into the mouth of a buddhist, have you? I know I haven't..
[edit] *Heaven itself is such an obscure consept.. as one could say a heaven would be a place with endless piles of chocolate to eat, other could say it's a sacred palace where a god rules or someone else could say it's a place where you can constantly line up people and kill them as you will with no regrets.
Can a soldier who has killed someone in the line of duty go to heaven? How about a cop? How about someone who honestly and with belief seeks forgiveness and salvation before they leave this world? What happens if someone who commits suicide hangs around long enough to do the seek forgiveness and salvation thing?
We like hard and fast rules about good and evil, things like "murder and suicide are moral sins". Unfortunately <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide#Early_Christianity' target='_blank'>inconsistancy and change over time</a> makes them difficult to maintain.
So let me stir this one in, starting from the earlier assumptions: Your place in the afterlife will be determined based on the balance of good and evil in your life, not a single act designated by someone waving a cross. Weigh your heart against the acts you have made in life, and you will know your own path in death.
People do not make it to heaven, regardless of how they died, if they had not yet accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Suicide is not the issue regarding whether a person goes to heaven, getting right with God is the issue.
Is there a limit for doing "wrong", by which you go to heaven or hell? A line you cannot cross? Aiunno.
Personally I wouldn't consider that a sin in those cases either, so I suspect there is some grey area in when suicide is and isn't morally allowed, just as there is with many other actions.
Would the answer be different for a suicide bomber and someone who simply fought an impossible (suicidal) fight in the name of their religion?
For example--if your army is fighting an enemy army, and you make a suicidal attack on the enemy army, thats probably ok. But if you make a suicidal attack on 2 dozen innocent civilians, thats going to be a lot harder to justify.
On a slightly different note, suicidally defending your faith is going to depend in large part on whether or not your faith is <i>correct</i>. I'm not trying to make any arguments here as to which faith is correct--but since the whole topic is based on how your action is seen in the afterlife by whatever entity happens to be the ultimate arbiter of morality, it stands to reason that <i>he</i> would know whether you were defending the true faith or a spurious faith, and would probably look on your actions more kindly if you were defending the true faith.
Would the answer be different for a suicide bomber and someone who simply fought an impossible (suicidal) fight in the name of their religion?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's different. If you commit yourself to a fight you cannot win in order to protect your neighbors or sacrifice your life to save the life of another you may be considered to be doing a good thing. However, if you're looking at Christianity as your moral guide (I'm not suggesting that you should, it just seems to be implied in the previous posts), you shouldn't be fighting or killing anyone to begin with. It should be noted that you can commit self-sacrifice without being a warrior; firefighters risk their lives to save people every day, and you never hear priests condemning their actions.
As far as taking your own life for the sole reason of ending it is concerned, the opinion of the Catholic church is that you are comitting a mortal sin and are therefore going to hell. I suppose that if you somehow recieved absolution from a priest between the action of taking your life and your actual death you could be forgiven, but the odds of that happening are all bit nil.
What do I believe? I try not to think about it.
As a side note, I'm a bit suprised so many of you have doubts about the Catholic doctrine on the issue, as it's a major part of <i>Constantine</i>'s plot.
As with many other beliefs of the Catholic church, it isn't founded in biblical principles. Eph 2:8-9, and other such passages like it specifically state that salvation isn't something that is obtained through works, rather it is something that is given to us as a free gift from God.
Even if we are way out of line and take our own lives, if we've accepted Christ's sacrifice on the Cross as a payment for our sins, it applies to our suicide as well. That doesn't change the fact that it's an incredibly selfish and short-sighted thing to do.
I leave whitespace at the bottom of my posts, I hate the following sentance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are probably aware that the Bible strictly forbids murdering anyone. Therefore, some people have stated that people who commit suicide will be judged as murderers (of themselves) and therefore could not reasonably expect to go to heaven. However, the Bible reveals that people can not “murder” themselves. As one example, look at the Ten Commandments in Exodus chapter 20, verses 1-17 (Exodus 20:1-17). The first four Commandments specify our behavior towards God:
1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make for yourself a carved image. . . .
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain. . . .
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
The last six Commandments specify our behavior towards other people:
5. Honor your father and your mother. . . .
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet . . . anything that is your neighbor’s.
Notice that with the exception of the sixth commandment, you can not do them to yourself. This makes sense when you realize that the book of Exodus is one of the books of “The Law.” That is, it primarily defines civil laws—the type of laws that would be tried in a court today. Therefore, applying such laws “against yourself” makes no sense. You would find the same concept in other areas of the Bible—<span style='color:white'>murder applies to killing other people, not yourself.</span>
<b>Suicide is not OK</b>
That does not mean that suicide is OK. It only means that it is not specifically forbidden. However, other guidelines lead us to believe that suicide is wrong in God’s eyes. For example, suicide generally is a result of depression, and the Bible does teach us something about that:
God uses all sorts of people in the Bible, but He never uses anyone who is depressed or discouraged. You might find reading 1 Kings chapter 19 instructive.
Satan does not care what non-Christians do with their lives. However, once people become Christians, they have “entered the ball game” and can expect more opposition than when they were “warming the bench.” New Christians often report being depressed, because depression and discouragement are two of Satan’s most powerful tools against them.
Further, for those of us who have gotten right with God, several guidelines apply to suicide:
1 Corinthians 10:31 reveal that the Holy Spirit dwells in those who are saved. It is our responsibility to treat Him with respect, and suicide is not appropriate.
Genesis 1:26,27 (and similar verses) reveal that we are made in the image of God. This is one of the reasons we are not allowed to murder (see Genesis 9:6,7), so again suicide would be a bad thing.
The Bible teaches us to trust, depend on, and believe in God throughout its length. (Romans 8:28 is one example.) To take your own life would show no faith in God. Notice that although the prophets, apostles, and Jesus Christ were persecuted, tortured, and put to death; they did not commit suicide for an “easy out.” They “fought the good fight” to the end (see 2 Timothy 4:6-8).
Be aware of how suicide affects other people’s opinion of the person who died. It is common for people to wonder if someone who commits suicide went to heaven. (That is the reason for this page—get it?) That is a poor testimony for a “Christian warrior.” <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some very good points I thought ... Discuss
Suicide fails both the "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not murder" interpretations. Since suicide is premeditated by definition (if it wasn't it would be an accidental death), it fails both tests.
However, the practical interpretations leave enough wiggle room to make Nietzsche proud.
1. Biblically and historically, going to war against an enemy nation has been exempted from the 6th commandment. In both cases, killing civilians has also been exempt. The idea of non-combatants is a post-WW II notion.
2. Taking actions that you know will result in your own death, if performed for a "greater good," like taking a bullet for an innocent person, have been exempted as well. While the act is premeditated and results in the death of a person, the idea of sacrifice has been integral to Christianity.
Suicide fails to meet any of the exemptions from the 6th commandment. One might try to find a loophole in exemption two by wandering around looking for a way to sacrifice yourself, but I think that would be classified as suicide, since the objective is to kill yourself. Helping somebody else is just a side effect of it and hiding that fact from an omniscient deity would be impossible.
The traditional Catholic reasoning is this:
1. If you have killed somebody, than you have committed a sin.
2. If you have committed a sin, you must confess that sin and ask forgiveness.
3. If you confess and ask forgiveness, than you may go to heaven.
4. If you kill yourself, than you can not perform steps two and three.
5. If you can not perform steps two and three, you will not go to heaven.
6. Therefore, if you kill yourself, you will not go to heaven.
2. Taking actions that you know will result in your own death, if performed for a "greater good," like taking a bullet for an innocent person, have been exempted as well. While the act is premeditated and results in the death of a person, the idea of sacrifice has been integral to Christianity.
Suicide fails to meet any of the exemptions from the 6th commandment. One might try to find a loophole in exemption two by wandering around looking for a way to sacrifice yourself, but I think that would be classified as suicide, since the objective is to kill yourself. Helping somebody else is just a side effect of it and hiding that fact from an omniscient deity would be impossible.
The traditional Catholic reasoning is this:
1. If you have killed somebody, than you have committed a sin.
2. If you have committed a sin, you must confess that sin and ask forgiveness.
3. If you confess and ask forgiveness, than you may go to heaven.
4. If you kill yourself, than you can not perform steps two and three.
5. If you can not perform steps two and three, you will not go to heaven.
6. Therefore, if you kill yourself, you will not go to heaven. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You beat me to it.
Seriously, who are we, mortals, to make this kind of call?
Edit- oh, and FInch, if you commit suicide by say, slitting your wrists... you'd have time to pray and ask forgiveness as you slowly bleed out
Seriously, who are we, mortals, to make this kind of call?
Edit- oh, and FInch, if you commit suicide by say, slitting your wrists... you'd have time to pray and ask forgiveness as you slowly bleed out <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, we've been rather short on burning bushes for the past two millenia, so we're left to our own devices to decipher what the Bible means.
If you want to get that technical, you haven't actually killed anybody in your scenario. It's been a while since I've been to St. Mary's, but I'm reasonably sure that you can't be absolved of a sin you haven't actually committed yet. If you're still alive, you haven't committed suicide and consequently haven't broken the 6th commandment. I also think that you need a priest or another representative of the Church to give absolution.
Keep in mind, that is only the Catholic interpretation. Protestantism, particularly the liberal variety, is far more malleable. If you're a member of a sect that doesn't subscribe to the Doctrine of Hell, for example, you probably have some more flexibility in arguing that suicide doesn't result in damnation or exclusion from Heaven.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible(Old Testament)+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible(Old Testament))</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Numbers 11:12-15 Moses was in despair because of the complaints of the Israelites whom he was leading. The burden of leadership was too heavy for him to bear. He asked God "If You treat me like this, please kill me here and now..."
Judges 9:52-54: The warrior-king of Israel, Abimelech, was attacking a tower in Thebez, hoping to exterminate large numbers of unarmed civilians as he had just done in Shechem. As he attempted to burn the door to the tower, a woman dropped a piece of a millstone on Abimelech's head. He felt that he was morally wounded. The king's contempt for women was so great that he quickly asked his armor bearer to kill him with his sword, in order that people not say that he had been killed by a woman.
Judges 16:29-30 Samson had been chained to the two middle pillars of a temple. He pushed them apart. thereby knowingly causing the collapse of the building, his own suicide and the death of a few thousand people inside. The death toll exceeded the number of people that he had killed during the rest of his life -which was considerable. Samson had been blinded, and no longer wanted to live as a captive. And by causing his own death, he had a chance to destroy many of the enemy.
bullet 1 Samuel 31:4-6 In a war against the Philistines, Saul's sons Johnathan, Abinadab and Malchishua were killed, and Saul himself was seriously wounded. He asked his armor bearer to kill him, but his assistant refused. So he took a sword and fell on it. The armor bearer then also fell on his sword. Both committed suicide. These precise events are also described in 1 Chronicles 10:3-7. Saul's justification for committing suicide was that because of his injuries, if the Philistines arrived, he would be abused and killed by uncircumcised men.
2 Samuel 1:2-17 An unidentified Amalekike man described to David a very different account about Saul's death. The versions in 1 Samuel 31 and 1 Chronicles 10, describe how Saul committed suicide by himself, after his armor bearer refused to perform the task. In this version, Saul had the Amalekite, a stranger, kill him, in a form of assisted suicide. After hearing the story of how the Amalekike had carried out the wishes of Saul, David had him executed on the spot, because he had "slain the LORD's anointed." The implication is that one can assist in the suicide of a commoner, but not in the case of a king. There is no criticism of Saul asking for help in committing suicide.
2 Samuel 17:1-29 Ahithophel recommended that he be allowed to choose 12,000 men, to pursue King David immediately, and kill him. When his advice was not accepted, he became so depressed that he returned to his city, "put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died..."
1 King 16:15-20 Zimri, king of Tirzah, saw his city besieged and taken. He was distressed at the sins that he had committed. He "went into the citadel of the king's house and burned the king's house down upon himself with fire, and died..."
bullet I King 18:40 and 19:4 In an act of vicious religious intolerance, Elijah ordered 400 priests of Baal executed. Ahab went to Jezebel, telling her that Elijah had "executed all the prophets with the sword." She swore to kill Elijah within the next 24 hours. Elijah fled for this life to Beersheba, went into the wilderness, and "prayed that he might die." He said, "It is enough! Now, LORD, take my life, for I am no better than my fathers!"
Jonah 4:1-11 God had threatened the destruction of the Nineveh, a city of 120,000 people. But the king and people of the city listened to Jonah, repented of their sins, and fasted. God changed his mind and did not destroy the city. Jonah was so angry at God's display of mercy that he asked God to kill him, "for it is better for me to die than to live!" He repeated the same request to God on the next day.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As usual contradictions are quite present in the difference between old and new testaments as is shown below.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible(New Testament)+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible(New Testament))</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Matthew 27:5 After Judas had betrayed Jesus in return for 30 pieces of silver, he hanged himself. Acts 1:18 is in apparent contradiction to this passage; it relates how he fell. He "burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out." It is likely that he did not simply fall down, but rather fell from a height great enough to split his body open. Most religious liberals would assume that these two very different accounts of the death were simply the result of different traditional stories related independently by the anonymous authors of Matthew and Acts. Some conservative Christians have attempted to harmonize the two stories by concluding that Judas hanged himself from a tree which hung over a ravine. The rope broke and he fell to the rocks below, splitting open his body.
1 Corinthians 3:17: "If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are." This is an interesting passage because it has been interpreted in very different ways by Bible commentators and translators:
An individual defiling his own body:
Some Bible translations, like the King James Version, and New King James, render the second word in this passages as "defile." Rheims New Testament uses "violate." This would seem to refer to an individual engaging in various damaging acts such as illegal drug usage, committing adultery, incest, smoking, etc.
One commentary suggests that Paul might have been "thinking ahead to those Cor[inthian] Christians who desecrate god's temple by the sexual immoralities which he severely censures in" Chapters 5 & 6. 3
Another commentary notes that the two words "defiles" and "destroy" in the above passage are actually the same word in the original Greek. It carries the meaning "desecrate." 4
Willmington's Bible Handbook refers to Verses 16 & 17 as implying that "Many of those in Corinth should be seriously concerned about the condition of their spiritual building." i.e. they should be certain that their lifestyle are not desecrating their bodies. 6
Individuals attacking the body of believers:
The New Living Translation translates verse 16 and 17 as: "Don't you realize that all of your together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in you. God will bring ruin upon anyone who ruins this temple. For God's temple is holy and you Christians are that temple."
The same commentary as is mentioned above states that the "temple" here refers to the body of believers: "The destroyers seek to to subvert the temple itself and will themselves be destroyed." 4
The New Jerome Biblical Commentary translates "holy temple" as referring to "The [Christian] community...destroyed by lack of sanctity." 5
Individuals committing suicide:
However, other Bible translations may put an entirely different slant on this passage. The American Standard Version, New American Bible, New American Standard Bible, New International Version, and New Revised Standard Version render the word as "destroy." That might imply the act of a person committing suicide. Yet a reference to suicide seems out of place in a chapter which is called "On Divisions in the Church" in the New International Version. This may be instances of translators' personal theology interfering with their choice of English words.
Philippians 1:20-26 Paul is contemplating whether it is better to live or die. He is hard pressed to decide between the two, "having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you...yet what I shall choose I cannot tell." One commentator writes of this passage that Paul "does not know whether he prefers life with labor or death with gain...in a life-and-death situation, he scarcely knows which alternative is to be preferred." He does choose life. 1
Revelation 9:1-10 An angel is described as opening the bottomless pit to release clouds of locusts. These insects had a body like a horse, hair like a woman's, a face of a man, and teeth like a lion. They were instructed to attack those people who "did not have the seal of God on their foreheads." The locusts were to torment people for five months but not to kill them. They had stingers in their tails like those of scorpions. Verse 6 says: "In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them." i.e. they will attempt to commit suicide to end the torment, but for some reason, will be unable to achieve it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then again this is assuming christianity is even real... which in and of itself is a paradox.
Then again no one here really knows alot about other religions either... so other perspectives are as follows...
<!--QuoteBegin-Hinduism+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hinduism)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Hinduism does not approve suicide. Hindus believe that human life is very precious, which is attainted after after hundreds and thousands of births and provides an unique opportunity to each individual to make a quantum jump into higher planes of existence or attain immortality. Even gods and other celestial beings do not have this opportunity unless they come down to earth and take birth as human beings.
It would therefore be a very serious mistake on the part of an individual if he commits suicide. It would seriously hamper his spiritual progress and put him back on the evolutionary scale by a few lives behind. It would also expose him to the risk of redoing in a more arduous way what he wanted to avoid in the first place.
According to Hindu beliefs if a person commits suicide, he neither goes to the hell nor the heaven, but remains in the earth consciousness as a bad spirit and wanders aimlessly till he completes his actual and allotted life time. Thereafter he goes to hell and suffers more severely. In the end he returns to the earth again to complete his previous karma and start from there once again. Suicide puts an individual's spiritual clock in reverse . Hindu scriptures therefore aptly described it as murder of self (atmahatya).
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Buddism+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Buddism)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The first precept in Buddhism is to abstain from harming living things...including oneself! There is nothing masochistic about the Buddha's teaching (such as love others but be really mean to yourself!). On the contrary, Buddhism is not only about caring for others but also about preserving a healthy body and a positive mind for oneself. Therefore, suicide is seen as morally wrong and will result in negative karmic consequences (see karma). For example, it might mean being reborn in one of the hells, or as an animal or as a hungry ghost (see samsara). To take one's own life, is also to destroy the advantage that human life affords for spiritual progress, even for gaining enlightenment.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What various other holy books say about suicide...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
he essence of right conduct is not to injure anyone; one should know only this, that non-injury is religion.
2. Jainism. Naladiyar 14-15
He who commits murder must be considered as the worst offender, more wicked than a defamer, than a thief, and than he who injures with a staff.
3. Hinduism. Laws of Manu 8.345
Anyone who kills a believer intentionally will have his reward in hell, to remain there. God will be angry with him and curse him, and prepare awful torment for him.
4. Islam. Qur'an 4.92
Only one single man [Adam] was created in the world, to teach that, if any man has caused a single soul to perish, Scripture imputes it to him as though he had caused the whole world to perish, and if any man saves alive a single soul, Scripture imputes it to him as though he had saved the whole world.
5. Judaism. Mishnah, Sanhedrin 4.5
- - - - - - - - - - - -
1Cf. Acarangasutra 7, p. 344. Naladiyar 14-15: 'Non-injury,' that is, ahimsa. Cf. Acarangasutra 5.101-2, p. 173. Sanhedrin 4.5: This scripture is quoted in Qur'an 5.32, below.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
All tremble at the rod. All fear death. Comparing others with oneself, one should neither strike nor cause to strike.
All tremble at the rod. Life is dear to all. Comparing others with oneself, one should neither strike nor cause to strike.
Whoever, seeking his own happiness, harms with the rod other pleasure-loving beings, experiences no happiness hereafter.
Whoever, seeking his own happiness, harms not with the rod other pleasure-loving beings, experiences happiness hereafter.
6. Buddhism. Dhammapada 129-32
In wars to gain land, the dead fill the plains; in wars to gain cities, the dead fill the cities. This is known as showing the land the way to devour human flesh. Death is too light a punishment for such men [who wage war]. Hence those skilled in war should suffer the most severe punishments.
7. Confucianism. Mencius IV.A.14
Victory breeds hatred, for the defeated live in pain. Happily live the peaceful, giving up victory and defeat.
8. Buddhism. Dhammapada 201
A man once came before Raba and said to him, "The ruler of my city has ordered me to kill a certain person, and if I refuse he will kill me." Raba told him, "Be killed and do not kill; do you think that your blood is redder than his? Perhaps his is redder than yours."
9. Judaism. Talmud, Pesahim 25b
We could surmise that murdering an enemy whom all people, as well as yourself, dislike cannot be a crime. But even the hated man has the same cosmic value as you. Murdering is a crime, because by murdering a person you infringe upon a cosmic law.
10. Unification Church. Sun Myung Moon, 9-30-79
Fine weapons are instruments of evil.
They are hated by men.
Therefore those who possess Tao turn away from them....
Weapons are instruments of evil, not the instruments of a good ruler.
When he uses them unavoidably, he regards calm restraint as the best principle.
Even when he is victorious, he does not regard it as praiseworthy,
For to praise victory is to delight in the slaughter of men.
He who delights in the slaughter of men will not succeed in the empire....
For the slaughter of the multitude, let us weep with sorrow and grief.
For a victory, let us observe the occasion with funeral ceremonies.
12. Taoism. Tao Te Ching 31
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Dhammapada 129-32: Cf. Dhammapada 201, p. 1004; Sutta Nipata 705, p. 173; Acarangasutra 5.101-2, p. 173; Samyutta Nikaya v.353, p. 173. Matthew 26.51-52: Cf. Treatise on Response and Retribution 5, p. 185.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
If a man comes to kill you, forestall it by killing him.
13. Judaism. Talmud, Sanhedrin 72a
Do not take life--which God has made sacred--except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority to demand retribution; but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped by the law.
14. Islam. Qur'an 17.33
O sons of Abdul Muttalib, let there be no retaliation for the act of murder. Do not roam about with a drawn sword... and do not start a massacre of my opponents and enemies. See that only one man, that is my murderer, is killed in punishment for the crime of murder, and that nobody else is molested or harmed or harassed. The punishment to the man who attempted the murder shall take place only when I die of the wound delivered by him, and this punishment shall be only one stroke of the sword to end [his] life. He should not be tortured before his death; his hands and feet should not be cut off, because I have heard the Holy Prophet saying, "Do not cut off the hands and feet of anybody, be it a biting dog."
15. Islam (Shiite). Nahjul Balagha, Letter 47
Suppose a bodhisattva sees that a vicious robber intends to kill many people for the sake of wealth; or intends to harm virtuous shravakas, pratyekabuddhas, or bodhisattvas; or intends to do other things that will cause him to fall into the Uninterrupted hell. When seeing this, the bodhisattva will think, "If I kill that person, I will fall into the hells; if I do not kill him, he will commit crimes which will lead him to the Uninterrupted hell, where he will suffer greatly. I would rather kill him and fall to the hells myself than let him undergo great suffering in the Uninterrupted hell."
Then, deeply regretting the necessity for this action, and with a heart full of compassion, he will kill that person. In doing this, he does not violate the bodhisattva precepts; instead, he generates many merits.
16. Buddhism. Yogacarya Bhumi Shastra
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Nahjul Balagha: `Ali spoke these words as he lay dying of a wound delivered by an assassin. He urged that there be no acts of vengeance outside of the rule of law. Yogacarya Bhumi Shastra: 'Uninterrupted' (Avici) hell is the lowest Buddhist hell.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
18. Islam. Qur'an 5.27-32
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Qur'an 5.27-32: The Qur'an cites the Mishnah, Sanhedrin 4.5, above.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
[Evil-doers] kill the baby and cause abortion of the unborn.
19. Taoism. Treatise on Response and Retribution
Slay not your children, fearing a fall to poverty. We shall provide for them and for you. Lo! the slaying of them is great sin.
20. Islam. Qur'an 17.31
It is a capital crime to destroy an embryo in the womb.
21. Judaism. Talmud, Sanhedrin 57b
If a woman is in hard travail, one cuts up the child in her womb and brings it forth member by member, because her life comes before the child.
22. Judaism. Mishnah, Ohalot 7.6
A bhikkhu who intentionally kills a human being, down to procuring abortion, is no ascetic and no follower of the Fraternity of the Buddha.
23. Buddhism. Vinaya, Mahavagga i.78.4
Those versed in the sacred law state that there are three acts only which make women outcastes: the murder of the husband, slaying a learned brahmin, and the destruction of the fruit of their womb.
24. Hinduism. Vasishtha Dharma Sutra 28.7
He who takes his own or another's life becomes an outcaste.
25. Hinduism. Apastamba Dharma Sutra 1.10.28.17
Let him [the ascetic] not desire to die... let him wait for his appointed time, as a servant waits for the payment of his wages.
26. Hinduism. Laws of Manu 6.45
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Qur'an 17.31: The motives for female infanticide in pre-Islamic Arabia, where the practice was common, were mainly economic. They are little different from some of the more questionable contemporary rationales for abortion.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
"Surely your blood of your lives will I require." [Genesis 9.5]. This includes suicide, except in a case like that of Saul.
27. Judaism. Midrash, Genesis Rabbah 34.13
He who killed himself with steel would be the eternal denizen of the Fire of hell, and he would have that weapon in his hand and would be thrusting that into his stomach for ever and ever; he who killed himself by drinking poison would sip that in the Fire of hell where he is doomed for ever and ever; and he who killed himself by falling from a mountain would constantly be falling in the Fire of hell.
28. Islam. Hadith of Muslim
A monk who intentionally deprives a human being of his life, or provides the means for suicide, or praises death, or incites one to commit suicide, saying, "Of what use to you is this evil, difficult life? Death is better for you than life," thus having his mind set on the other's death and with the idea that he should die, praises death in various ways or incites him to commit suicide, commits an offense entailing loss of monkhood.
29. Buddhism. Vinaya Pitaka
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Do not be a fool--why die before your time?" (Ecclesiastes 7:17b)
Almost everyone would agree that life is the most precious gift that human beings have been given. Just the chance to be alive on this earth and play a part in the grand scheme of God's eternal plan is a privilege indeed. Yet, despite this, there are times when life becomes so difficult or unbearable that many have, at one time or another, wished they were dead or had never been born. For some, these feelings linger--and if they linger long enough, suicide seems to be the only escape. In fact, in the United States (and stats are similar in countries around the world) the suicide rate has tripled among teen and young adults in the past 40 years.
<b>What does the Bible say about suicide? How does God view it? Do all those who kill themselves go to Hell? </b>
Very few would argue with the fact that suicide is a direct breaking of the Sixth Commandment which is, "You shall not murder." We are not to murder each other or ourselves. God created human beings in His image and each of us carries within us the potential to overcome the evil in this world, and to rule and reign with Christ in heavenly places. If we are Christians, we no longer belong to ourselves, but to God. We are overseers of our bodies and our lives (which belong to Him), and we are responsible to guard that which has been entrusted to us.
Suicide is a grievous sin that seriously hurts both the heart of God, and those who loved the deceased. The pain of losing a loved one who took their own life is not easily healed, and often isn't fully healed until Heaven. Whether you are contemplating suicide or know someone who killed themselves, God wants you to know there is hope and life for you. He is the great Healer and Restorer of what has been lost or stolen.
Many of the greatest saints and heroes of the Bible faced overwhelming depression and sometimes wrote that they wished they had never even been born. King David, (Psalm 13:2-4), the prophet Jeremiah, (Jeremiah 20:14-18), and Job, (Job 7:15-16) among others, all reached low points where they despaired of their very lives.
Job says, "So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life. I loathe it; I would not live alway: let me alone; for my days are vanity" (Job 7:15-16).
Yet, each one of these men were blessed of God, and persevered through their trials as an example to us. Though they faced great suffering and injustice, they kept their faith in God and His goodness, and in so doing, were sustained and led into abundant life.
Though we may get depressed from time to time, we believe that the act of suicide never takes place apart from demonic influences driving one to take their own life. Suicide is directly counter to the power of life that God has put so strongly into His creation. Everywhere we look we see life growing, even in the most hostile environments. This "survival instinct" is a gift from God. In fact, if He didn't bestow this gift upon His creation there probably wouldn't be any life on this planet at all! Suicide, then, is directly contrary to the will of God, and originated in the realm of the demonic host, who come only to "steal, and to kill, and to destroy" (John 10:10). Though demons may try to tempt us to kill ourselves, as Christians we have power over the devil and he cannot push us to do this if we sincerely call on the name of the Lord!
We are all in a spiritual battle. The problem is, many of us are not aware of it, and do not know how to protect ourselves against attack.
<b>Do all those who kill themselves go to Hell? </b>
Some people believe that all who commit suicide go immediately to Hell. However, the Bible never says if this is the case. The Bible is silent on this issue. God probably did not address it in black in white for a good reason. If we knew that we would still go to Heaven if we killed ourselves, there would probably be a lot more suicides taking place than there already are. However, if we knew that all who killed themselves were automatically banished to Hell, no matter what their situation, it may be too much for the grief-stricken family and friends to bear. Murder and suicide are not unpardonable sins. The only unforgivable sins are rejecting Christ (Mark 16:16) and blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
(Mark 3:28-29 KJV) Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
All other sins can be forgiven. However, anyone contemplating suicide may be in danger of going to Hell, as their relationship with the Lord is not intact at that point. Those who would consider suicide may have a severed relationship with Christ and therefore they would enter the real Hell--which is worse than the hellish feelings they are experiencing at the moment.
It is so important to remember that God judges each of us individually, weighing all the factors of our lives, our beliefs and our motives. Each one of us is so intricate and complex, only God could really judge us in total truth, wisdom, and without favoritism. The most important truth of all, is that each one of us will stand before His throne and give account of our lives. If we lived intimately with this sobering truth, much of the sin in the church and the world, would immediately be stopped.
<span style='color:red'>If you are contemplating suicide and are relying on God's grace to get you to heaven, PLEASE stop for a moment....God's grace never means that we have a free license to sin!</span> Those who willfully sin after knowing God's grace, are in far greater danger than those who know less. Though you may feel that God is far from you right now, He is much nearer than you think. He may even be speaking to you through these words! Please open your ears and hear Him tell you how valuable your life is. You are needed on this earth and the purpose for your life has not yet been fulfilled. God loves you, and so do many people around you! God would not be God if He could not work this situation (no matter how unbearable it may seem) for His glory and for the good in your own life.
Depression is often anger, and a host of other emotions that have turned inward and become frozen. If you are carrying anger, resentment, bitterness, unforgiveness, frustration, jealousy, despair, worthlessness, hopelessness, fearfulness, vengeance and/or self-pity in your heart, you can turn these things over to God and begin to receive your healing right now, in faith. If you don't know how to let them go, confess it to God and ask for His help in releasing it to Him. No one can overcome these things by themselves. We all need the power of God to set us free from sinful and hopeless ways of thinking. That is why the Bible tells us that we must be "transformed, by the renewing of our mind (Romans 12:2)." The Holy Spirit is the only One who can help us break free and be healed of these deadly emotions.
Just as ailments in our physical body need to be treated with medicine to be healed, the same is true of our emotions. One powerful way to fight against depression, is to apply and confess God's Word as a healing balm to the places where you have been wounded. For instance, if you have unforgiveness in your heart, begin to confess God's verses for love and forgiveness, even if they don't exactly feel true right at the moment. If you feel worthless, confess the Scriptures of God's great love for you. A rote, mechanical repeating of words may not do much, but if you deliberately take these living words and hold on to them for dear life, you will have the enemy on the run. The devil simply cannot stand against the Word of God spoken in faith. God's Words are like spiritual antibiotics, destroying every germ and unclean thing in their path.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the (V)Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18"For truly I say to you, (W)until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Contradictions. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
First of all - is suicide sin.
Second - what is required for forgivness from sin.
Third - what assurance do we have if we are willfully sinning.
For the first - I would affirm that suicide is sin. I would not call it an "ultimate sin" or "unforgivable sin" or anything else. It is plain old ordanary sin. Why? Well - if we affirm an afterlife - we can also affirm forgivness in the afterlife - even for those things not yet repented for.
Second - Jesus is required for forgivness - not a priest, not a member of clergy. Confession doesn't have to happen to a corporal entity to be valid. On a side note - I believe that requiring such a confession stands in the way of Christs work on the cross. I also believe that requireing such a confession deadens us to what sin is. For instance - I once overheard a teen age girl saying that she couldn't think of anything to confess. That tells me that she lived a perfect life for the past month - an utterly unrealistic accomplishment.
Third - now this is the tricky part. I affirm perseverance of the saints... if one is saved, one acts as though they are saved. That being said - people sin.
Apply that to suicide. If suicide is a culmination of a life of sin, what hope does that individual have? Show me a Faith without works, and I'll show you a faith that is dead. While works are not required for heaven, they are a necessary part of a living faith - which is a requirement for heaven.
So is it possible for someone to commit suicide and go to heaven... yes. Is it likely? I wouldn't bet the house on it.
Second - Jesus is required for forgivness - not a priest, not a member of clergy. Confession doesn't have to happen to a corporal entity to be valid. On a side note - I believe that requiring such a confession stands in the way of Christs work on the cross. I also believe that requireing such a confession deadens us to what sin is. For instance - I once overheard a teen age girl saying that she couldn't think of anything to confess. That tells me that she lived a perfect life for the past month - an utterly unrealistic accomplishment.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, your bible states otherwise...
<!--QuoteBegin-Various bible passages+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Various bible passages)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Mark 2:7, Luke 5:21
Matt. 9:6, Mark 2:10, Luke 5:24, Col. 3:13
John 20:22-23
2 Cor. 2:10
2 Cor. 5:18
Roman 5:11, Col. 1:20, Heb. 1:3
1 John 5:16
Corinthians 2:5-8
Matt. 18:18
Matthew 9;2-8,
2 Corinthians 5:18-20
James 5:14-16
James 5:14-16
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was a good try though.
21. Judaism. Talmud, Sanhedrin 57b
If a woman is in hard travail, one cuts up the child in her womb and brings it forth member by member, because her life comes before the child.
22. Judaism. Mishnah, Ohalot 7.6<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Contradictions <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Not that it matters, I'm glad you appeared in this thread as I was wondering about how the original words used in the relevant biblical passages could be translated. That said, I wouldn't actually change my thoughts on the subject whatever the bible said <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If we were lucky and there really was a god and a heaven then I would hope it was the god I have in mind rather than the one so many others believe in. That is, as long as you don't hurt others you can choose to live (and die) however you wish.
However, if suicide is taken in a catholic way then yes, you would go to hell although it'd be nice if Pepe's interpretation of it were common. That is the chances are someone that commits suicide will go to hell only because their life wasn't 'christian' enough ("if it was then why would they kill themselves!" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) but it is only 'the straw that breaks the camels back'. That suicide on it's own isn't an instant 'go to hell, go directly to hell, do not pass god, do not collect infinite happiness' card and, if their life was sufficiently... holy? enough then they'd still go to heaven.
Second - Jesus is required for forgivness - not a priest, not a member of clergy. Confession doesn't have to happen to a corporal entity to be valid. On a side note - I believe that requiring such a confession stands in the way of Christs work on the cross. I also believe that requireing such a confession deadens us to what sin is. For instance - I once overheard a teen age girl saying that she couldn't think of anything to confess. That tells me that she lived a perfect life for the past month - an utterly unrealistic accomplishment.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, your bible states otherwise...
<!--QuoteBegin-Various bible passages+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Various bible passages)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Mark 2:7, Luke 5:21
Matt. 9:6, Mark 2:10, Luke 5:24, Col. 3:13
John 20:22-23
2 Cor. 2:10
2 Cor. 5:18
Roman 5:11, Col. 1:20, Heb. 1:3
1 John 5:16
Corinthians 2:5-8
Matt. 18:18
Matthew 9;2-8,
2 Corinthians 5:18-20
James 5:14-16
James 5:14-16
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was a good try though. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How was I wrong? I affirmed that Jesus was required for forgivness - Jesus being a member of the Trinity - and therefore God - with God the Father and the Holy Spirit. That is exactly what my Bible states - as affirmed by the passages you highlighted.
Once again - Jesus (God if you will) is required for forgivness - not a priest, not a member of clergy.
Second - Jesus is required for forgivness - not a priest, not a member of clergy. Confession doesn't have to happen to a corporal entity to be valid. On a side note - I believe that requiring such a confession stands in the way of Christs work on the cross. I also believe that requireing such a confession deadens us to what sin is. For instance - I once overheard a teen age girl saying that she couldn't think of anything to confess. That tells me that she lived a perfect life for the past month - an utterly unrealistic accomplishment.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, your bible states otherwise...
<!--QuoteBegin-Various bible passages+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Various bible passages)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Mark 2:7, Luke 5:21
Matt. 9:6, Mark 2:10, Luke 5:24, Col. 3:13
John 20:22-23
2 Cor. 2:10
2 Cor. 5:18
Roman 5:11, Col. 1:20, Heb. 1:3
1 John 5:16
Corinthians 2:5-8
Matt. 18:18
Matthew 9;2-8,
2 Corinthians 5:18-20
James 5:14-16
James 5:14-16
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was a good try though. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cyndane--you are seriously hard to understand. I checked those passages, and about half of them seem like you <i>could</i> interpret them that way if you really tried, and about half of them didn't even pretend to support that interpretation, but none of them were more than marginally suggestive of the catholic view of confessions. You can't just post a list of random passages with very open interpretations and say, "You're wrong, I win."
And if you want to debate the truth of Chrisitianity in general, take it to another thread--this thread presupposes the truth of Christianity and is a debate about Christian doctrine. Let it stay that way.
(That means Buddhist and Hindu views on suicide are of very limited importance, too)
That being said, I shall address the issues that people have put forth starting with the most recent.
<!--QuoteBegin-cxwf+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cxwf)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
And if you want to debate the truth of Chrisitianity in general, take it to another thread--this thread presupposes the truth of Christianity and is a debate about Christian doctrine. Let it stay that way.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depot stated heaven, and said religious doctrines only, but didn't specify heaven, and since heaven is available in many faiths, guess what? They are all still quite relevant even if you wish to ignore them. I also did not mention anything about winning I am just providing information at that point. However, since some have issues with apolegetics, I am more then happy to explain them.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
How was I wrong? I affirmed that Jesus was required for forgivness - Jesus being a member of the Trinity - and therefore God - with God the Father and the Holy Spirit. That is exactly what my Bible states - as affirmed by the passages you highlighted.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, let me break it down for you.
In 2 Cor. 5:11-21 is what is called “The Ministry of Reconciliation.” To reconcile means, “to reestablish a close relationship between.” This passage explicitly helps to show the role of the priest or bishop in the sacrament. Here I will quote verses 16-20:
“Consequently, from now on we regard no one according to the flesh; even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know him so no longer. So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come. And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”
In this passage, Paul is describing his ministry and the ministry of all the Apostles. He shows how he has power to forgive sin in the name of Christ. He also describes the role of the priest. Let’s do a verse-by-verse exegesis.
Verse 16 speaks of how the disciples came to know Christ through the flesh yet they do not know him now as such. They know Christ in the Spirit. New American Bible footnotes clearly convey the meaning:
“[16-17] Consequently: the death of Christ described in 2 Cor. 5:14-15 produces a whole new order (2 Cor. 5:17) and a new mode of perception (2 Cor. 5:16). According to the flesh: the natural mode of perception, characterized as "fleshly," is replaced by a mode of perception proper to the Spirit. Elsewhere Paul contrasts what Christ looks like according to the old criteria (weakness, powerlessness, folly, death) and according to the new (wisdom, power, life); cf 2 Cor. 5:15.21; 1 Cor. 1:17-3:3. Similarly, he describes the paradoxical nature of Christian existence, e.g., in 2 Cor. 4:10-11,14. A new creation: rabbis used this expression to describe the effect of the entrance of a proselyte or convert into Judaism or of the remission of sins on the Day of Atonement. The new order created in Christ is the new covenant (2 Cor. 3:6).”
Verse 17 talks about people that are baptized. “Whoever is in Christ is a new creation” refers to what happens at baptism. People are not merely putting on Christ; they are born again in Christ. They become one in Christ and with the rest of the baptized believers. Similar symbolism is seen 3 verses earlier when verse 14 says, “one died for all; therefore, all have died.” In baptism we die in Christ and are born again in Christ just as Christ had died on the cross and put sin to death and arose in newness of life. Baptism puts to death our old sin and we are regenerated as a child of God and no longer just a creature of God.
In verse 18 Paul praises God and gives authenticity to his power by saying that his powers and ministry are from God. When Paul speaks of being “reconciled to God through Christ” he speaks of being made one with others through the sacrifice of Christ. Then Paul tells us this special power that was given to him by God and that it is the “ministry of reconciliation.” (Cf. John 20:21-23).
Verse 19 goes on to say that God sent his only Son to bring the world to unity under God no matter who they were, Jew, Gentile, etc, and from Christ that message was to be carried on by his disciples. The way (message) of reconciliation was entrusted to those specific people, the ones sent by Christ, and their appointees.
Verse 20 describes the exact role of the priest: “ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us.” This is exactly what happens at confession. The priest is not the “mediator” between God and the confessor in the sense that anti-Catholics think. No, the priest is an ambassador for Christ, as if God were appealing through them.
Paul knows, as an appointed Apostle, of his role in the Church and all of the power bestowed upon him. Even in the First letter to the Corinthians he expresses this point. After telling the people in Corinth that this is all for Christ and not done in the name of humans he tells us in Chapter 4 that “Thus one should regard us: as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.”
Just because you seem to miss the most important message of the entire bible as well Pepe, I shall quote where Jesus states the Aposltes can forgive sin, which filters down to current day priests/bishops/pope etc.
<!--QuoteBegin-John 20: 20-23(NSAB+ biblegateway.com)--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (John 20: 20-23(NSAB @ biblegateway.com))</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
20And when He had said this, (AE)He showed them both His hands and His side The disciples then (AF)rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
21So Jesus said to them again, "(AG)Peace be with you; (AH)as the Father has sent Me, I also send you."
22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23"(AI)<b>If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." </b>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To quote one of my favorite comics "Jesus was cool with the healing of the stupid people. 'I heal you stupid people ooh ooh' " (Using healing as a synonmn for forgive, since he is healing their "soul(s)")
East: I haven't transliterated those portions of the bible, however if you do want me to translate for you, I would be more then happy.(I have recently come into possession a copy of the orginal greek new testament (dated around 900 AD) so it includes all of the books not just the "key ones") Keep in mind I do not add words when I transliterate, since that detracts from the real meaning, something that has been lost over the past generations that attempt translations. (Read: Various political groups and biased partisians.)
Of course that also means the grammar will be awful in english, but that is just one of the minor issue when dealing with old langauges.
In addition, all holy books have contradictions in them, however the bible, qu'ran, and toran are just easier to spot because they have been translated to english many times.
Murder is generally defined as taking of life, with premeditation, unless you are prone to random outbursts of completely incoherent actions I would assume taking your own life is premeditated.
The bible never says its good or bad, remains neutral on the topic, which is why you can not use it to condone, nor disprove either side.
Of course, murder is quite throughly approved of, especially of "enemies" of the church.
oh... well that was boring. Was hoping for something more open to interpretation <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->