Here's an interesting development, in case you guys haven't seen it: <a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4500245.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4500245.stm</a>
So, the state of Florida says that a 13 year old is too young to have an abortion. Ignoring the legal justifications of the decision, I'd say that they're heartless if they decide that those who are least able to deal with a pregnancy are the ones that aren't entitled to end one.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+Apr 30 2005, 11:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast @ Apr 30 2005, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 30 2005, 08:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 30 2005, 08:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sex is, for humans, a pleasurable act first that gets women pregnant sometimes as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That just shows how greedy we've become as a race.
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. Boo. Pleasure without purpose is pain; and when pleasure is the purpose it is but vain. <- <i>I is a poet</i>
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So is the idea of heaven, being close to god etc not pleasurable? Will you have some kind of purpose up there other than just sit around? Are you sure you aren't just delaying your pleasure now so you can have an infinite amount of it later?
Besides, I've never been one to get my pleasure at the expense of others, I wouldn't call that greedy exactly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think darkAti worded it wrong, truely you can label anything good under "pleasure". But what I think he meant was shallow superficial pleasure <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Epidemic+May 1 2005, 01:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ May 1 2005, 01:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think darkAti worded it wrong, truely you can label anything good under "pleasure". But what I think he meant was shallow superficial pleasure <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah, so godly spiritual pleasure is a special case but the pleasures of the flesh are disgusting.
What about music and art, 'intellectual pleasures' I guess. Are they good or bad?
What about the pleasures of success? Solving a maths problem or winning in a sport? Exactly what pleasures are bad? Which ones are 'without purpose'?
Imo all pleasure is good, that isn't a justification for doing bad things however. Whats wrong with a bit of recreational sex though?
East we all know there is there is nothing wrong with a bit of recreational sex. In fact many doctors as I have stated before encourage it.
Some people just have various pointy items up their butts about actually leading a completely healthy life, just like the animals in the wild do. [sarcasm] Oh wait.. but we aren't animals. [/sarcasm]
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+May 1 2005, 02:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ May 1 2005, 02:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Here's an interesting development, in case you guys haven't seen it: <a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4500245.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4500245.stm</a>
So, the state of Florida says that a 13 year old is too young to have an abortion. Ignoring the legal justifications of the decision, I'd say that they're heartless if they decide that those who are least able to deal with a pregnancy are the ones that aren't entitled to end one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe her body wouldn't be able to handle the stress? There has to be some justification for the ruling other than "she's too young". <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+May 1 2005, 09:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ May 1 2005, 09:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+May 1 2005, 02:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ May 1 2005, 02:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Here's an interesting development, in case you guys haven't seen it: <a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4500245.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4500245.stm</a>
So, the state of Florida says that a 13 year old is too young to have an abortion. Ignoring the legal justifications of the decision, I'd say that they're heartless if they decide that those who are least able to deal with a pregnancy are the ones that aren't entitled to end one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe her body wouldn't be able to handle the stress? There has to be some justification for the ruling other than "she's too young". <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That girl also falls under the high-risk pregnancy category because her body is small. The chances are even greater that the baby will be premature, or could possibly kill her due to the stress involved when dealing with labor.
Basically the state of florida is playing "god" with her life at this point in time.
Disgusting really.
*edit* One of the major reasons I laughed so hard when steel troll said "pregnancy was easy."
I had vowed to stay out of this thread. I started a thread on this last year, and I quickly got tired of it. And indeed, after reading this, I have nothing to add. Nothing except this, which has ALSO been said already in different words:
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Apr 21 2005, 04:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Apr 21 2005, 04:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[...]if you as a person are going to be pro-death... I mean, pro-choice[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am "pro-choice," if I have to sum it up. However, I will agree to calling myself pro-death if you will stop calling yourself pro-life and instead call yourself pro-oppression. Your move.
Edit: The old thread is <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=83097' target='_blank'>here.</a> Feel free to read it, but I expressly forbid you to revive it.
I'm gonna quote Tura Satanas - Put your head out here or more specifically the first line in the song.
"My **** my choice" (-EDIT- It appears the forums didn't like that word. Think the alternate word for a cat..... -EDIT-)
The problem is that if you ban abortions, whats to stop the women who need one going and falling down the stairs on purpose to cause a miscarrage or any other form of self-mutilation? Or even go even go the coat-hanger route. Believe it or not if a woman really really doesn't want a child whats to stop her going that route?
Pleasure isn't the problem, greed is. And it's very easy to get greedy with pleasure.
greed - WordNet ® 2.0 (August 2003) :
greed n 1: excessive desire to acquire or possess more (especially more material wealth) than one needs or deserves 2: reprehensible acquisitiveness; insatiable desire for wealth (personified as one of the deadly sins) [syn: avarice, covetousness, rapacity, avaritia]
That means she's intentionally killing the child. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually it's more likely that she wouldn't get that far, because a coathanger (For example) being non sterilised will directly penetrate the placental wall. That will provide a wound which carries straight into her blood stream various bacteria, including <i>Lactobacilli vaginalis</i> or <i>Staphylococcus aureus</i> which cause septicemia.
Which, if you haven't connected the dots already, kills them both and is one of the primary reasons that abortions were legalised to begin with. Desperate women turn to desperate measures, and people decided that a ball of cells didn't have as much of a right as a fully developed human being driven to the desperation by others idosyncratic morals. Of course, she may have alternatively survived (her child would not have however) but never needed to report it anyway because she'd be the only one to know (having not gone to a hospital for help, you know, your whole stupid prison idea). Later in life she'll be sterile however and probably would have an extremely elevated chance of getting cervical cancer.
But again, we're not about giving a crap about the woman involved so long as our beliefs are held up right?
Oh, and so long as it's attached to her, so long as it's regulating her blood pressure, is drawing nutrients from her body (IE anemia), is modifying her immune system and countless other physiological connotations of pregnancy - which you hillariously dismiss - she has full rights to decide what to do.
But why not quote some stuff? I need no meaningless emotional arguments:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Although researchers and practitioners alike have long been aware of the existence and dangers of self-induced abortions, virtually no research exists on this topic. This article describes methods of self-induced abortion from current and historical literature. A case study of an adolescent using quinine is discussed to highlight both the reasons some adolescents choose to self-abort and the possible dangers of using such methods. Serious risks to the adolescent are associated with any self-induced abortion attempt. Nurse practitioners are in a key position to assess an adolescent's risk factors for self-induced abortion attempts and to educate about the dangers of such attempts.
PIP: The introduction to this article on the existence and dangers of self-abortion attempts among adolescents in the US notes that in 1992 more than 134,000 US adolescents sought legal abortions, while an unknown number attempted illegal or self-induced abortions. The article goes on to describe a case in which a 19-year-old almost died after ingesting 1.5 g of quinine in a self-abortion attempt. <b>Next, the article reviews the literature on methods used to attempt self-induced abortion and points out that 70 cases of attempted quinine induced abortion resulted in three abortions and <i>11 maternal deaths</i></b>. A table lists other methods of self-induced abortion, including use of drugs, instrumentation, cervical dilation, and trauma. After noting that adolescents may be particularly susceptible to such attempts because of their limited resources and limited access to legal abortions, the article describes reasons for self-induced abortion attempts. Next, recommendations are made to help nurse-practitioners recognize the symptoms of self-induced abortion attempts and prevent the occurrence of self-induced abortion by accessing risks and providing adolescents with the education and support needed to prevent such attempts.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Risky choices: the dangers of teens using self-induced abortion attempts. Smith J.P. Journal of Pediatrics Health Care 1998.
From countries where it is legal!
Another article
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Legal abortions are authorized medical procedures, and as such, they are or can be recorded at the health facility where they are performed. The incidence of illegal, often unsafe, induced abortion has to be estimated, however. In the literature, no fewer than eight methods have been used to estimate the frequency of induced abortion: the "illegal abortion provider survey," the "complications statistics" approach, the "mortality statistics" approach, self-reporting techniques, prospective studies, the "residual" method, anonymous third party reports, and experts' estimates.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Estimating induced abortion rates: A review. Rossier C. Studies in Family Planning. 2003.
What about this, from a country you undoubtably think does it the right way (snicker) having only abortions where it directly threatens the womans life or rape.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In Brazil, abortion is only permitted to save the woman's life or in cases of rape. The principal effect of legal restrictions is not to make induced abortion practice less prevalent but to force poor women to resort to abortions performed under unhygienic conditions or attempt self-induced abortion. Within this context, misoprostol, a synthetic analogue of prostaglandin E1, was introduced in the country in 1986. Purchased over the counter in pharmacies, misoprostol has became a popular abortifacient method among Brazilian women. By 1990, about 70% of women hospitalized with abortion-related diagnoses reported use of the drug. In 1991, the Ministry of Health restricted the sale of misoprostol, and in some states its use was totally banned. While the proportion of abortions induced with misoprostol has decreased, the drug continues to be sold on the black market at an inflated value. Research indicates that women have acquired more experience with the drug over time, resulting in lower doses and more effective administration. Several studies show that the rate and severity of complications are significantly less among women who used misoprostol compared with women who used invasive methods. Research also suggests that about half of the women have complete abortion with misoprostol, but seek medical care as soon as they have vaginal bleeding. <b>The experience of Brazilian women with misoprostol is an example of how women when faced with unwanted pregnancy will resort to illegal abortion whatever the costs are to their health</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Commercial availability of misoprostol and induced abortion in Brazil. Costa S.H. Journal of the International Federation of Gynaecology and Obstetrics. 1998.
Lets make something clear again:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>The experience of Brazilian women with misoprostol is an example of how women when faced with unwanted pregnancy will resort to illegal abortion whatever the costs are to their health</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And again
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'><b>The experience of Brazilian women with misoprostol is an example of how women when faced with unwanted pregnancy will resort to illegal abortion whatever the costs are to their health</b></span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's notice how this correlates with one of the first things I pointed out in this post:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Desperate women turn to desperate measures,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No matter what, a ball of cells is NEVER worth more than a womans life.
EVER.
Unless she chooses so.
And this is why we have laws that provide such a 'choice'.
Next time you want to make an ignorant comment have a look through some of the literature on the topic first.
<!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+May 4 2005, 07:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ May 4 2005, 07:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> *snip* <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You may want to turn down the grandstanding a bit, but otherwise that's a well written and presented arguement. Kudos <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Renegade+May 5 2005, 12:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Renegade @ May 5 2005, 12:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+May 4 2005, 07:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ May 4 2005, 07:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> *snip* <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You may want to turn down the grandstanding a bit, but otherwise that's a well written and presented arguement. Kudos <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There are just certain arguments that people, from time to time, bring up that make no sense and are just unrealistic considering how 'the real world' works.
My initial argument is a parody however (although this is slight) of the fact that Troll <i>et al</i> arguments have consisted of nothing more than vague, meaningless emotional arguments (and or strawmen). However, not only can I do the same if required, I can factually back my arguments up by proving directly that idosyncratic laws such as what Troll suggests, would increase the risks to desperate mothers disproportionately and risk their death AND their child. Essentially killing two for the price of one set of morals.
Of course, he'll proceed to ignore the data presented but that is aside from the point.
<!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+May 4 2005, 11:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ May 4 2005, 11:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Of course, he'll proceed to ignore the data presented but that is aside from the point. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's because he's largely basing his arguement on his beliefs (subjective) rather than facts (objective).
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
A woman's child is, at the end of the day, an extension of her body. She has dominion over it in exactly the same way as she has over her hair or fingernails.
Until the cord is cut, it shouldn't be anybody else's business. To suggest that your opinion should be able to affect what happens to some else's body is to put yourself on a par with Hitler or Pol Pot.
Belief does not justify the violation of other people. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and telling you to abort <b>your</b> child. Let others live in peace.
Renegade & Ageri , WTH are you on about. Seriously.... thats just annoying, i have put many hours reading up on this topic, i have posted loads of facts which have both reinforced <b>and</b> made me chalange my own beleifs.
You have to have beleifs in this world, as i said previously you would be a boring washover without them, but those beleifs must be backed up by (in your eyes) valid moral and factual standpoints... Please,read my previous posts, dont be asshats and say you are only arguing on a beleife basis...I am doing both, i argue by beleifs and by facts too.
grrr................... <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> breath.....count to ten....continue....
Ageri, i agree with Renegade on one thing... <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You may want to turn down the grandstanding <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+ PM to me, SteelTroll--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast @ PM to me, SteelTroll)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hey, could you reply to my post now please? smile-fix.gif I'm rather enjoying our debate as while we are on completely different sides at least we are both willing to communicate. I see this is going to be a 'agree to disagree' thing but at least I get the idea that you are listening to what I say rather than just trying to find faults and I hope you feel the same about my posts too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> At least some one understands im not being an imposing ****... And yes i do CMEast, thank you....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A woman's child is, at the end of the day, an extension of her body. She has dominion over it in exactly the same way as she has over her hair or fingernails.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dissagree grendle, for reasons we have discussed earlier. (Own DNA, child is its own entity with its own life etc.)
We beleive murder is moraly wrong. We put guns to murderers heads and execute. Are our Beleifs wrong? The murderer might not think so, so arent we imposing our beleifs on someone else? Oh and btw, i am not imposing my beleifs on anyone, i made this thread for discussion, and for all parties to put their points accross...
Im sorry i am not posting more, i have exams this 2 onths and im very busy... Ill be checking up the thread often though....
<!--QuoteBegin-Steel Troll+May 5 2005, 10:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Steel Troll @ May 5 2005, 10:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Renegade & Ageri , WTH are you on about. Seriously.... thats just annoying, i have put many hours reading up on this topic, i have posted loads of facts which have both reinforced <b>and</b> made me chalange my own beleifs.
You have to have beleifs in this world, as i said previously you would be a boring washover without them, but those beleifs must be backed up by (in your eyes) valid moral and factual standpoints... Please,read my previous posts, dont be asshats and say you are only arguing on a beleife basis...I am doing both, i argue by beleifs and by facts too.
grrr................... <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> breath.....count to ten....continue....
Ageri, i agree with Renegade on one thing... <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You may want to turn down the grandstanding <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+ PM to me, SteelTroll--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast @ PM to me, SteelTroll)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hey, could you reply to my post now please? smile-fix.gif I'm rather enjoying our debate as while we are on completely different sides at least we are both willing to communicate. I see this is going to be a 'agree to disagree' thing but at least I get the idea that you are listening to what I say rather than just trying to find faults and I hope you feel the same about my posts too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> At least some one understands im not being an imposing ****... And yes i do CMEast, thank you....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A woman's child is, at the end of the day, an extension of her body. She has dominion over it in exactly the same way as she has over her hair or fingernails.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dissagree grendle, for reasons we have discussed earlier. (Own DNA, child is its own entity with its own life etc.)
We beleive murder is moraly wrong. We put guns to murderers heads and execute. Are our Beleifs wrong? The murderer might not think so, so arent we imposing our beleifs on someone else? Oh and btw, i am not imposing my beleifs on anyone, i made this thread for discussion, and for all parties to put their points accross...
Im sorry i am not posting more, i have exams this 2 onths and im very busy... Ill be checking up the thread often though.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And everysingle one of your "proofs" has been refuted again and again.
Basically we are at odds over the definition of an "infant" is. Like I have posted before the modern dictionaries disagree with you.
You should never force your "beliefs" upon anyone. If you can't agree with that, you should not be dicussing here.
(Which is what you are doing by saying "send the girl to jail for an abortion.")
well if a Fetus is an extension of a women's body, and a women can do with her body what she wants
then a minority group is really just an extension of Society, so society can do with that group whatever they want.
I vote we kill homosexuals that don't carry their wieght, let's get the handi-cap and deformed while were at it. and lets just kill off anyone who doesn't make our super-human-race
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+May 5 2005, 10:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ May 5 2005, 10:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A woman's child is, at the end of the day, an extension of her body. She has dominion over it in exactly the same way as she has over her hair or fingernails.
Until the cord is cut, it shouldn't be anybody else's business. To suggest that your opinion should be able to affect what happens to some else's body is to put yourself on a par with Hitler or Pol Pot.
Belief does not justify the violation of other people. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and telling you to abort <b>your</b> child. Let others live in peace. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> the arguement of "its my body I can do what I want with it" isn't valid buddy
its my body but I can't legally shoot it up with illegal drugs can I? yeah thats right
<!--QuoteBegin-Steel Troll+May 5 2005, 11:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Steel Troll @ May 5 2005, 11:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Renegade & Ageri , WTH are you on about. Seriously.... thats just annoying, i have put many hours reading up on this topic, i have posted loads of facts which have both reinforced <b>and</b> made me chalange my own beleifs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You've posted mostly bollocks is what you've done.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Please,read my previous posts, dont be asshats and say you are only arguing on a beleife basis...I am doing both, i argue by beleifs and by facts too.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again
Pointless emotional arguments =! facts.
And strawmen =! facts.
For the most part I've just watched your shananningans through this thread, but I finally got tired of it and shot your argument before it's terminal illness finished with it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ageri, i agree with Renegade on one thing... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering this has been all you've managed to do in this thread this is particularly rich.
But again, I've got data to fully support my view.
<!--QuoteBegin-Comrad Skulk+May 5 2005, 05:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Comrad Skulk @ May 5 2005, 05:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Data is the lowest level of information in the informational pryomid... I wouldn't be too proud of it
here's how the prymid is from higest to lowest
Wisdom Knowledge Information Data <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You lot like missing the point entirely don't you?
<!--QuoteBegin-Comrad Skulk+May 5 2005, 05:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Comrad Skulk @ May 5 2005, 05:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> its hard to get a cut from a dull blade isn't it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you spam these forums with stupid comments because you're bored or because you're just an idiot?
<!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+May 5 2005, 06:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ May 5 2005, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Comrad Skulk+May 5 2005, 05:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Comrad Skulk @ May 5 2005, 05:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> its hard to get a cut from a dull blade isn't it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you spam these forums with stupid comments because you're bored or because you're just an idiot? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> do you kill god's children because your satan or just an idiot?
<!--QuoteBegin-Comrad Skulk+May 5 2005, 07:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Comrad Skulk @ May 5 2005, 07:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+May 5 2005, 06:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ May 5 2005, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Comrad Skulk+May 5 2005, 05:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Comrad Skulk @ May 5 2005, 05:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> its hard to get a cut from a dull blade isn't it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you spam these forums with stupid comments because you're bored or because you're just an idiot? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> do you kill god's children because your satan or just an idiot? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Depends, since he doesn't define a sack of inanimate cells as a "child", then he <u>doesn't</u> kill Gods' children.
And also, when it comes to debating, this pyramid: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Data is the lowest level of information in the informational pryomid... I wouldn't be too proud of it
here's how the prymid is from higest to lowest
Wisdom Knowledge Information Data<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is useless. Data can be proven, and is necessary to construct an argument. Information is the grouping of the data into a logical conclusion, which forms the crux of one's argument. Knowledge...well knowledge comes would come from studying something for an extended period of time, something that you haven't done. And wisdom doesn't lend itself well to logical discussions, because there is no backing for wisdom beyond "I know this to be true". Guess what, that's not good enough.
<!--QuoteBegin-Comrad Skulk+May 5 2005, 03:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Comrad Skulk @ May 5 2005, 03:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+May 5 2005, 06:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ May 5 2005, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Comrad Skulk+May 5 2005, 05:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Comrad Skulk @ May 5 2005, 05:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> its hard to get a cut from a dull blade isn't it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you spam these forums with stupid comments because you're bored or because you're just an idiot? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> do you kill god's children because your satan or just an idiot? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you like to troll because you want attention, or are you just an idiot?
Sorry for the flaming, but some people just make me <i>mad</i>.
And with that, I'm going to give <b>my</b> word and walk away. Women do not simply go out and rip a fetus from their body without a thought. The bond between a mother and her child is the strongest bond a mammal can have to another mammal. Believe me when I say that abortion isn't simply an idea you drop on the table and walk away from.
It's not simply: "Hmmm, an abortion. Okay, lets do it!", it's more like "Do I really want to do this? This child could grow up to be a doctor, a musician, or even the president. But if I give birth to them now and raise them in my current situation, they may not have a normal/happy life...". Here's another fun fact: Women are <i>required</i> to go through Abortion Alternatives Counsiling at any Women's Clinics they go to before having one. If they don't complete it, the women's clinic will not <i>under good conscience</i> perform an abortion on the woman.
Now, my final though: Don't impose your beliefs on others. Just because <i>you</i> believe in it doesn't mean <i>others</i> believe in it, nor are they required to.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You've posted mostly bollocks is what you've done.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoting these forum rules "2.: Never, ever, be judgemental towards the other side. Blanket labelling of another opinion as "stupid", "naive", "short sighted", "racist", "communist", "socialist", "liberal", "conservative", or what have you is often so close to flaming that it takes experts to find a difference. If you wish to express your personal opinion about another persons notion, try to stay away from valuing terms, and try to be as rational as humanly possible - you're treading on thin ice, and insulting the other side by calling it what it is not can't be in your interest"
For Franks Sake!!! I am not imposing my views! I am in a discussion, and you are frankly being rude *reported*
And how can you deny that i have posted facts to back up my views? If you feel them to be inadequate, thats your problem imo. You do not seem to have read all the posts, thats why i asked you top read them.
This argument about "You are imposing your views" is pointless, coz you are saying i am, but i am just here to <b> Discuss </b>
You ageri have not been an active part of this discussion, you just posted a few times, without much research adamant about your views. Now who is imposing their views on someone??
<!--QuoteBegin-Renegade+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Renegade)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now, my final though: Don't impose your beliefs on others. Just because you believe in it doesn't mean others believe in it, nor are they required to. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. And i also understand that some mothers do go through a lengthly process in deciding to abort or not. However i beleive that the moral guilt felt however does not justify the killing of a human being. Why do i beleive it to be a human? Read my previous poosts 3 or 4 pages back. And my beleife is backed up by facts Ageri, thank you very much. If you do not agree with the facts, that speak for themselves, than that is your own problem.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You should never force your "beliefs" upon anyone. If you can't agree with that, you should not be dicussing here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. But we can discuss andd then come to an agreement or agree to dissagree. You dont see me forming a Parliment, taking over and imposing my beleife on everyone am i?
<!--QuoteBegin-Steel Troll+May 5 2005, 12:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Steel Troll @ May 5 2005, 12:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A woman's child is, at the end of the day, an extension of her body. She has dominion over it in exactly the same way as she has over her hair or fingernails.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dissagree grendle, for reasons we have discussed earlier. (Own DNA, child is its own entity with its own life etc.) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm... I'd argue that, since the fetus has grown <i>from</i> the woman's body and is attached to it, it's part of the woman and not a seperate entity. (Until it's surviving on its own with aid from the mother, that's when it becomes a viable baby, I believe?)
Unless you consider it a parasite until birth, but then... Should you be allowed to remove other parasites, like tape worms? Why them and not a fetus?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the arguement of "its my body I can do what I want with it" isn't valid buddy
its my body but I can't legally shoot it up with illegal drugs can I? yeah thats right<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So go fight for the legal right to do that, if you really want to. That's what people are doing right now about abortion.
Comments
<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4500245.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4500245.stm</a>
So, the state of Florida says that a 13 year old is too young to have an abortion. Ignoring the legal justifications of the decision, I'd say that they're heartless if they decide that those who are least able to deal with a pregnancy are the ones that aren't entitled to end one.
That just shows how greedy we've become as a race.
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. Boo. Pleasure without purpose is pain; and when pleasure is the purpose it is but vain.
<- <i>I is a poet</i>
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So is the idea of heaven, being close to god etc not pleasurable? Will you have some kind of purpose up there other than just sit around? Are you sure you aren't just delaying your pleasure now so you can have an infinite amount of it later?
Besides, I've never been one to get my pleasure at the expense of others, I wouldn't call that greedy exactly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think darkAti worded it wrong, truely you can label anything good under "pleasure". But what I think he meant was shallow superficial pleasure <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Ah, so godly spiritual pleasure is a special case but the pleasures of the flesh are disgusting.
What about music and art, 'intellectual pleasures' I guess. Are they good or bad?
What about the pleasures of success? Solving a maths problem or winning in a sport? Exactly what pleasures are bad? Which ones are 'without purpose'?
Imo all pleasure is good, that isn't a justification for doing bad things however. Whats wrong with a bit of recreational sex though?
Some people just have various pointy items up their butts about actually leading a completely healthy life, just like the animals in the wild do. [sarcasm] Oh wait.. but we aren't animals. [/sarcasm]
<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4500245.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4500245.stm</a>
So, the state of Florida says that a 13 year old is too young to have an abortion. Ignoring the legal justifications of the decision, I'd say that they're heartless if they decide that those who are least able to deal with a pregnancy are the ones that aren't entitled to end one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe her body wouldn't be able to handle the stress? There has to be some justification for the ruling other than "she's too young". <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4500245.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4500245.stm</a>
So, the state of Florida says that a 13 year old is too young to have an abortion. Ignoring the legal justifications of the decision, I'd say that they're heartless if they decide that those who are least able to deal with a pregnancy are the ones that aren't entitled to end one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe her body wouldn't be able to handle the stress? There has to be some justification for the ruling other than "she's too young". <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That girl also falls under the high-risk pregnancy category because her body is small. The chances are even greater that the baby will be premature, or could possibly kill her due to the stress involved when dealing with labor.
Basically the state of florida is playing "god" with her life at this point in time.
Disgusting really.
*edit* One of the major reasons I laughed so hard when steel troll said "pregnancy was easy."
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Apr 21 2005, 04:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Apr 21 2005, 04:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[...]if you as a person are going to be pro-death... I mean, pro-choice[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am "pro-choice," if I have to sum it up. However, I will agree to calling myself pro-death if you will stop calling yourself pro-life and instead call yourself pro-oppression.
Your move.
Edit: The old thread is <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=83097' target='_blank'>here.</a> Feel free to read it, but I expressly forbid you to revive it.
"My **** my choice" (-EDIT- It appears the forums didn't like that word. Think the alternate word for a cat..... -EDIT-)
The problem is that if you ban abortions, whats to stop the women who need one going and falling down the stairs on purpose to cause a miscarrage or any other form of self-mutilation? Or even go even go the coat-hanger route. Believe it or not if a woman really really doesn't want a child whats to stop her going that route?
That means she's intentionally killing the child.
It might be her ****, but it sure isnt her life she's carrying in there
oh and lolfighter, Oppression is "The act of oppressing; arbitrary and cruel exercise of power:"
Its not cruel when you are saving an innocent life.
Pleasure isn't the problem, greed is. And it's very easy to get greedy with pleasure.
greed - WordNet ® 2.0 (August 2003) :
greed
n 1: excessive desire to acquire or possess more (especially more
material wealth) than one needs or deserves
2: reprehensible acquisitiveness; insatiable desire for wealth
(personified as one of the deadly sins) [syn: avarice,
covetousness, rapacity, avaritia]
You can replace money with sex in there.
~ DarkATi
That means she's intentionally killing the child. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually it's more likely that she wouldn't get that far, because a coathanger (For example) being non sterilised will directly penetrate the placental wall. That will provide a wound which carries straight into her blood stream various bacteria, including <i>Lactobacilli vaginalis</i> or <i>Staphylococcus aureus</i> which cause septicemia.
Which, if you haven't connected the dots already, kills them both and is one of the primary reasons that abortions were legalised to begin with. Desperate women turn to desperate measures, and people decided that a ball of cells didn't have as much of a right as a fully developed human being driven to the desperation by others idosyncratic morals. Of course, she may have alternatively survived (her child would not have however) but never needed to report it anyway because she'd be the only one to know (having not gone to a hospital for help, you know, your whole stupid prison idea). Later in life she'll be sterile however and probably would have an extremely elevated chance of getting cervical cancer.
But again, we're not about giving a crap about the woman involved so long as our beliefs are held up right?
Oh, and so long as it's attached to her, so long as it's regulating her blood pressure, is drawing nutrients from her body (IE anemia), is modifying her immune system and countless other physiological connotations of pregnancy - which you hillariously dismiss - she has full rights to decide what to do.
But why not quote some stuff? I need no meaningless emotional arguments:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Although researchers and practitioners alike have long been aware of the existence and dangers of self-induced abortions, virtually no research exists on this topic. This article describes methods of self-induced abortion from current and historical literature. A case study of an adolescent using quinine is discussed to highlight both the reasons some adolescents choose to self-abort and the possible dangers of using such methods. Serious risks to the adolescent are associated with any self-induced abortion attempt. Nurse practitioners are in a key position to assess an adolescent's risk factors for self-induced abortion attempts and to educate about the dangers of such attempts.
PIP: The introduction to this article on the existence and dangers of self-abortion attempts among adolescents in the US notes that in 1992 more than 134,000 US adolescents sought legal abortions, while an unknown number attempted illegal or self-induced abortions. The article goes on to describe a case in which a 19-year-old almost died after ingesting 1.5 g of quinine in a self-abortion attempt. <b>Next, the article reviews the literature on methods used to attempt self-induced abortion and points out that 70 cases of attempted quinine induced abortion resulted in three abortions and <i>11 maternal deaths</i></b>. A table lists other methods of self-induced abortion, including use of drugs, instrumentation, cervical dilation, and trauma. After noting that adolescents may be particularly susceptible to such attempts because of their limited resources and limited access to legal abortions, the article describes reasons for self-induced abortion attempts. Next, recommendations are made to help nurse-practitioners recognize the symptoms of self-induced abortion attempts and prevent the occurrence of self-induced abortion by accessing risks and providing adolescents with the education and support needed to prevent such attempts.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Risky choices: the dangers of teens using self-induced abortion attempts. Smith J.P. Journal of Pediatrics Health Care 1998.
From countries where it is legal!
Another article
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Legal abortions are authorized medical procedures, and as such, they are or can be recorded at the health facility where they are performed. The incidence of illegal, often unsafe, induced abortion has to be estimated, however. In the literature, no fewer than eight methods have been used to estimate the frequency of induced abortion: the "illegal abortion provider survey," the "complications statistics" approach, the "mortality statistics" approach, self-reporting techniques, prospective studies, the "residual" method, anonymous third party reports, and experts' estimates.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Estimating induced abortion rates: A review. Rossier C. Studies in Family Planning. 2003.
What about this, from a country you undoubtably think does it the right way (snicker) having only abortions where it directly threatens the womans life or rape.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In Brazil, abortion is only permitted to save the woman's life or in cases of rape. The principal effect of legal restrictions is not to make induced abortion practice less prevalent but to force poor women to resort to abortions performed under unhygienic conditions or attempt self-induced abortion. Within this context, misoprostol, a synthetic analogue of prostaglandin E1, was introduced in the country in 1986. Purchased over the counter in pharmacies, misoprostol has became a popular abortifacient method among Brazilian women. By 1990, about 70% of women hospitalized with abortion-related diagnoses reported use of the drug. In 1991, the Ministry of Health restricted the sale of misoprostol, and in some states its use was totally banned. While the proportion of abortions induced with misoprostol has decreased, the drug continues to be sold on the black market at an inflated value. Research indicates that women have acquired more experience with the drug over time, resulting in lower doses and more effective administration. Several studies show that the rate and severity of complications are significantly less among women who used misoprostol compared with women who used invasive methods. Research also suggests that about half of the women have complete abortion with misoprostol, but seek medical care as soon as they have vaginal bleeding. <b>The experience of Brazilian women with misoprostol is an example of how women when faced with unwanted pregnancy will resort to illegal abortion whatever the costs are to their health</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Commercial availability of misoprostol and induced abortion in Brazil. Costa S.H. Journal of the International Federation of Gynaecology and Obstetrics. 1998.
Lets make something clear again:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>The experience of Brazilian women with misoprostol is an example of how women when faced with unwanted pregnancy will resort to illegal abortion whatever the costs are to their health</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And again
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'><b>The experience of Brazilian women with misoprostol is an example of how women when faced with unwanted pregnancy will resort to illegal abortion whatever the costs are to their health</b></span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's notice how this correlates with one of the first things I pointed out in this post:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Desperate women turn to desperate measures,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No matter what, a ball of cells is NEVER worth more than a womans life.
EVER.
Unless she chooses so.
And this is why we have laws that provide such a 'choice'.
Next time you want to make an ignorant comment have a look through some of the literature on the topic first.
You may want to turn down the grandstanding a bit, but otherwise that's a well written and presented arguement. Kudos <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You may want to turn down the grandstanding a bit, but otherwise that's a well written and presented arguement. Kudos <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are just certain arguments that people, from time to time, bring up that make no sense and are just unrealistic considering how 'the real world' works.
My initial argument is a parody however (although this is slight) of the fact that Troll <i>et al</i> arguments have consisted of nothing more than vague, meaningless emotional arguments (and or strawmen). However, not only can I do the same if required, I can factually back my arguments up by proving directly that idosyncratic laws such as what Troll suggests, would increase the risks to desperate mothers disproportionately and risk their death AND their child. Essentially killing two for the price of one set of morals.
Of course, he'll proceed to ignore the data presented but that is aside from the point.
That's because he's largely basing his arguement on his beliefs (subjective) rather than facts (objective).
Until the cord is cut, it shouldn't be anybody else's business. To suggest that your opinion should be able to affect what happens to some else's body is to put yourself on a par with Hitler or Pol Pot.
Belief does not justify the violation of other people. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and telling you to abort <b>your</b> child. Let others live in peace.
You have to have beleifs in this world, as i said previously you would be a boring washover without them, but those beleifs must be backed up by (in your eyes) valid moral and factual standpoints...
Please,read my previous posts, dont be asshats and say you are only arguing on a beleife basis...I am doing both, i argue by beleifs and by facts too.
grrr................... <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
breath.....count to ten....continue....
Ageri, i agree with Renegade on one thing... <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You may want to turn down the grandstanding <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+ PM to me, SteelTroll--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast @ PM to me, SteelTroll)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hey, could you reply to my post now please? smile-fix.gif I'm rather enjoying our debate as while we are on completely different sides at least we are both willing to communicate. I see this is going to be a 'agree to disagree' thing but at least I get the idea that you are listening to what I say rather than just trying to find faults and I hope you feel the same about my posts too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At least some one understands im not being an imposing ****... And yes i do CMEast, thank you....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A woman's child is, at the end of the day, an extension of her body. She has dominion over it in exactly the same way as she has over her hair or fingernails.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dissagree grendle, for reasons we have discussed earlier. (Own DNA, child is its own entity with its own life etc.)
We beleive murder is moraly wrong. We put guns to murderers heads and execute. Are our Beleifs wrong? The murderer might not think so, so arent we imposing our beleifs on someone else? Oh and btw, i am not imposing my beleifs on anyone, i made this thread for discussion, and for all parties to put their points accross...
Im sorry i am not posting more, i have exams this 2 onths and im very busy... Ill be checking up the thread often though....
You have to have beleifs in this world, as i said previously you would be a boring washover without them, but those beleifs must be backed up by (in your eyes) valid moral and factual standpoints...
Please,read my previous posts, dont be asshats and say you are only arguing on a beleife basis...I am doing both, i argue by beleifs and by facts too.
grrr................... <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
breath.....count to ten....continue....
Ageri, i agree with Renegade on one thing... <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You may want to turn down the grandstanding <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+ PM to me, SteelTroll--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast @ PM to me, SteelTroll)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hey, could you reply to my post now please? smile-fix.gif I'm rather enjoying our debate as while we are on completely different sides at least we are both willing to communicate. I see this is going to be a 'agree to disagree' thing but at least I get the idea that you are listening to what I say rather than just trying to find faults and I hope you feel the same about my posts too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At least some one understands im not being an imposing ****... And yes i do CMEast, thank you....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A woman's child is, at the end of the day, an extension of her body. She has dominion over it in exactly the same way as she has over her hair or fingernails.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dissagree grendle, for reasons we have discussed earlier. (Own DNA, child is its own entity with its own life etc.)
We beleive murder is moraly wrong. We put guns to murderers heads and execute. Are our Beleifs wrong? The murderer might not think so, so arent we imposing our beleifs on someone else? Oh and btw, i am not imposing my beleifs on anyone, i made this thread for discussion, and for all parties to put their points accross...
Im sorry i am not posting more, i have exams this 2 onths and im very busy... Ill be checking up the thread often though.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And everysingle one of your "proofs" has been refuted again and again.
Basically we are at odds over the definition of an "infant" is. Like I have posted before the modern dictionaries disagree with you.
You should never force your "beliefs" upon anyone. If you can't agree with that, you should not be dicussing here.
(Which is what you are doing by saying "send the girl to jail for an abortion.")
Absolutely disgusting.
then a minority group is really just an extension of Society, so society can do with that group whatever they want.
I vote we kill homosexuals that don't carry their wieght, let's get the handi-cap and deformed while were at it. and lets just kill off anyone who doesn't make our super-human-race
now you're talking like hitler.
Until the cord is cut, it shouldn't be anybody else's business. To suggest that your opinion should be able to affect what happens to some else's body is to put yourself on a par with Hitler or Pol Pot.
Belief does not justify the violation of other people. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and telling you to abort <b>your</b> child. Let others live in peace. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
the arguement of "its my body I can do what I want with it" isn't valid buddy
its my body but I can't legally shoot it up with illegal drugs can I? yeah thats right
You've posted mostly bollocks is what you've done.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Please,read my previous posts, dont be asshats and say you are only arguing on a beleife basis...I am doing both, i argue by beleifs and by facts too.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again
Pointless emotional arguments =! facts.
And strawmen =! facts.
For the most part I've just watched your shananningans through this thread, but I finally got tired of it and shot your argument before it's terminal illness finished with it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Ageri, i agree with Renegade on one thing... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering this has been all you've managed to do in this thread this is particularly rich.
But again, I've got data to fully support my view.
here's how the prymid is from higest to lowest
Wisdom
Knowledge
Information
Data
here's how the prymid is from higest to lowest
Wisdom
Knowledge
Information
Data <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You lot like missing the point entirely don't you?
Do you spam these forums with stupid comments because you're bored or because you're just an idiot?
Do you spam these forums with stupid comments because you're bored or because you're just an idiot? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
do you kill god's children because your satan or just an idiot?
Do you spam these forums with stupid comments because you're bored or because you're just an idiot? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
do you kill god's children because your satan or just an idiot? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depends, since he doesn't define a sack of inanimate cells as a "child", then he <u>doesn't</u> kill Gods' children.
And also, when it comes to debating, this pyramid:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Data is the lowest level of information in the informational pryomid... I wouldn't be too proud of it
here's how the prymid is from higest to lowest
Wisdom
Knowledge
Information
Data<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is useless. Data can be proven, and is necessary to construct an argument. Information is the grouping of the data into a logical conclusion, which forms the crux of one's argument. Knowledge...well knowledge comes would come from studying something for an extended period of time, something that you haven't done. And wisdom doesn't lend itself well to logical discussions, because there is no backing for wisdom beyond "I know this to be true". Guess what, that's not good enough.
Do you spam these forums with stupid comments because you're bored or because you're just an idiot? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
do you kill god's children because your satan or just an idiot? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you like to troll because you want attention, or are you just an idiot?
Sorry for the flaming, but some people just make me <i>mad</i>.
And with that, I'm going to give <b>my</b> word and walk away. Women do not simply go out and rip a fetus from their body without a thought. The bond between a mother and her child is the strongest bond a mammal can have to another mammal. Believe me when I say that abortion isn't simply an idea you drop on the table and walk away from.
It's not simply: "Hmmm, an abortion. Okay, lets do it!", it's more like "Do I really want to do this? This child could grow up to be a doctor, a musician, or even the president. But if I give birth to them now and raise them in my current situation, they may not have a normal/happy life...". Here's another fun fact: Women are <i>required</i> to go through Abortion Alternatives Counsiling at any Women's Clinics they go to before having one. If they don't complete it, the women's clinic will not <i>under good conscience</i> perform an abortion on the woman.
Now, my final though: Don't impose your beliefs on others. Just because <i>you</i> believe in it doesn't mean <i>others</i> believe in it, nor are they required to.
Quoting these forum rules "2.: Never, ever, be judgemental towards the other side.
Blanket labelling of another opinion as "stupid", "naive", "short sighted", "racist", "communist", "socialist", "liberal", "conservative", or what have you is often so close to flaming that it takes experts to find a difference. If you wish to express your personal opinion about another persons notion, try to stay away from valuing terms, and try to be as rational as humanly possible - you're treading on thin ice, and insulting the other side by calling it what it is not can't be in your interest"
For Franks Sake!!! I am not imposing my views! I am in a discussion, and you are frankly being rude *reported*
And how can you deny that i have posted facts to back up my views? If you feel them to be inadequate, thats your problem imo. You do not seem to have read all the posts, thats why i asked you top read them.
This argument about "You are imposing your views" is pointless, coz you are saying i am, but i am just here to <b> Discuss </b>
You ageri have not been an active part of this discussion, you just posted a few times, without much research adamant about your views. Now who is imposing their views on someone??
<!--QuoteBegin-Renegade+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Renegade)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now, my final though: Don't impose your beliefs on others. Just because you believe in it doesn't mean others believe in it, nor are they required to. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. And i also understand that some mothers do go through a lengthly process in deciding to abort or not. However i beleive that the moral guilt felt however does not justify the killing of a human being. Why do i beleive it to be a human? Read my previous poosts 3 or 4 pages back. And my beleife is backed up by facts Ageri, thank you very much. If you do not agree with the facts, that speak for themselves, than that is your own problem.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You should never force your "beliefs" upon anyone. If you can't agree with that, you should not be dicussing here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. But we can discuss andd then come to an agreement or agree to dissagree. You dont see me forming a Parliment, taking over and imposing my beleife on everyone am i?
I dissagree grendle, for reasons we have discussed earlier. (Own DNA, child is its own entity with its own life etc.) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm... I'd argue that, since the fetus has grown <i>from</i> the woman's body and is attached to it, it's part of the woman and not a seperate entity. (Until it's surviving on its own with aid from the mother, that's when it becomes a viable baby, I believe?)
Unless you consider it a parasite until birth, but then... Should you be allowed to remove other parasites, like tape worms? Why them and not a fetus?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the arguement of "its my body I can do what I want with it" isn't valid buddy
its my body but I can't legally shoot it up with illegal drugs can I? yeah thats right<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So go fight for the legal right to do that, if you really want to. That's what people are doing right now about abortion.