That's a rather shady argument for abortion, and one I personally would not use as support in a debate. It certainly sounds like it could be true, but it just seems so....unnecessarily bleak, I suppose. There are other arguments for the legalization of abortion that don't involve the probability of a child to become a criminal or otherwise unsatisfactory member of society.
<!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+Apr 27 2005, 02:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Apr 27 2005, 02:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ATi, you're acting as if he had suggested aborting babies because they will become criminals. He meant that babies born into families (or without families) that are more likely to have an abortion are more likely to become criminals because of the socioeconomic situation that would have increased the likelihood of an abortion in the first place. In other words, being born into a world with little or no money and one or nobody who cares about you would make you more likely to become a criminal. It does't mean you automatically become one because of said conditions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am aware of what he meant. His argument (or the book he was quoting's argument) is ridiculous and holds no grounds for debate. You can't say, "we think this might happen so we'll kill the person that might cause it to happen."
Solution: Stop sleeping around. Become responsible. Then, crime will decline. Don't continue to be irresponsible and "patch" the consequences by killing an innocent life (or read: soon-to-be-life.)
Guys, it's a statistic. No one has said that they're endorsing abortion because of this. It's just something to think about. Personally, I don't think it's worth it to kill babies, in order to reduce crime, so I don't see how this statistic could convince someone that abortion is moral, if that person is pro-life.
I think one good argument that can be drawn out of that kind of thinking is that mothers that have to abort children are often more careless and less able to take care of children. More importantly, women that have abortions just because they can't be bothered to take precautions or because they want a flat stomach on holiday will probably be awful mothers.
That said, there are just as many good, responsible women who have abortions due to silly mistakes, bad accidents or unfortunate circumstances.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 27 2005, 02:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 27 2005, 02:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Solution: Stop sleeping around. Become responsible. Then, crime will decline. Don't continue to be irresponsible and "patch" the consequences by killing an innocent life (or read: soon-to-be-life.)
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If that were possible ATI... we wouldn't have aids (I'm sure you all would hate my solution to the aids problem so i won't talk about it any further).
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Trev, that's a little unfair. They don't like killing what they view as humans; they'd much rather just have people be more responsible with condom and other contraceptive use. Voila, no babies, no need to kill them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The united states? Put trust in it's education system to solve a problem!?!? OLOLOLOLOL
If we could do that we wouldn't have to pass incredibly ineffective laws regarding drugs and firearms would we?
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Apr 27 2005, 03:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Apr 27 2005, 03:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Trev, that's a little unfair. They don't like killing what they view as humans; they'd much rather just have people be more responsible with condom and other contraceptive use. Voila, no babies, no need to kill them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The united states? Put trust in it's education system to solve a problem!?!? OLOLOLOLOL
If we could do that we wouldn't have to pass incredibly ineffective laws regarding drugs and firearms would we?
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all, I was just correcting your statement that anti-abortionists want more babies. They quite obviously don't. They want people to be responsible. It's not really a matter of the education system. Condom = no baby and no STDs. That fact has been hammered into our brains as hard as it can be, imo. In fact, the only way it could be pounded into our heads more is if we made commercials concerning STDs and pregnancies like we make commercials concerning drugs. Maybe they should...oh wait, the US is all crazy with the sex content on TV.
Why do you think the laws regarding drugs and firearms are ineffective? Because people aren't educated? No, they're ineffective because people in general are asshats, irresponsible, immoral, and in general really don't give a crap about anything, even potentially dangerous things like drugs and guns. Same thing with sex - it's not that people don't know how to use a condom, it's that they just don't care enough to use one.
Look... there are very FEW reasons for an abortion... most of them covered by protection
Hell, they have an arm insert that is 99.99% effective in changing the homronal balance and preventing the ABILITY to get pregennt, for up to 5 years I believe it is... once removed, it takes a week and yer back to normal! I mean...c'mon... it isn't hard
Combine this with a condom, a pill, ect... hell... unless god WANTS you preggers, you won't get preggy!
<!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+Apr 27 2005, 05:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Apr 27 2005, 05:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 27 2005, 04:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 27 2005, 04:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+Apr 27 2005, 03:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Apr 27 2005, 03:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 27 2005, 02:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 27 2005, 02:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Solution: Stop sleeping around. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And it is people like you that get women pregnant... sometimes ending in abortion. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Mean. True.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh, no. You forget about contraceptives? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You forget they don't always work?
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh, no. You forget about contraceptives? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You forget they don't always work?
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Pills and Condoms combined will give a very low failure rate. It's much much easier to get people to use contraceptives than to get people to stop having sex.
A morning after pill would result in even fewer unwanted pregnancies, but some pro-lifers are against killing a day old zygote (made of a few dozen cells).
<!--QuoteBegin-BloodySloth+Apr 20 2005, 12:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BloodySloth @ Apr 20 2005, 12:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> @Steel Troll Or she could carry something like mace, which would prevent the entire situation. If the existence of preventative measures negates the excuse for abortions in consensual sex, why doesnt it for rape? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow. It's taking all my strength not to flame you into oblivion right now.
That said, just because a woman carries a can of Mace doesn't mean she won't get raped. It may decrease her chances, but it doesn't negate them.
Back on topic, if a woman is raped and becomes pregnant as a result nobody has the right to tell her she <i>must</i> carry the child (the same goes for incest). She has become pregnant through means that were not under her control, therefor whatever terminative methods she persues cannot be questioned.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 27 2005, 08:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 27 2005, 08:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Solution: Stop sleeping around. Become responsible. Then, crime will decline. Don't continue to be irresponsible and "patch" the consequences by killing an innocent life (or read: soon-to-be-life.)
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This says more about your distaste for recreational sex than your grasp of the sociological context we're dealing with.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Apr 28 2005, 04:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Apr 28 2005, 04:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 27 2005, 08:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 27 2005, 08:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Solution: Stop sleeping around. Become responsible. Then, crime will decline. Don't continue to be irresponsible and "patch" the consequences by killing an innocent life (or read: soon-to-be-life.)
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This says more about your distaste for recreational sex than your grasp of the sociological context we're dealing with. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty much, yeah. "Recreational Sex"... is an oxymoron if you ask me. Sex should be about commitment as well as pleasure.
As for the sociological context... care to enlighten me? (Not rhetorical, not condescending, actually asking.) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 28 2005, 06:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 28 2005, 06:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Apr 28 2005, 04:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Apr 28 2005, 04:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 27 2005, 08:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 27 2005, 08:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Solution: Stop sleeping around. Become responsible. Then, crime will decline. Don't continue to be irresponsible and "patch" the consequences by killing an innocent life (or read: soon-to-be-life.)
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This says more about your distaste for recreational sex than your grasp of the sociological context we're dealing with. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty much, yeah. "Recreational Sex"... is an oxymoron if you ask me. Sex should be about commitment as well as pleasure.
As for the sociological context... care to enlighten me? (Not rhetorical, not condescending, actually asking.) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then you really have no concept of the fact that sex is actually quite therapeutic for the human body. Which is why, some animals have sex all the time.
IMO, recreational sex is the best kind. No annoying commitment to get in the way.
Of course if you find someone you're ready to enter into a commitment like, say, marriage, with, then by all means have... what do you call it? Plain sex or something?
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 28 2005, 12:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 28 2005, 12:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Apr 28 2005, 04:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Apr 28 2005, 04:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 27 2005, 08:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 27 2005, 08:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Solution: Stop sleeping around. Become responsible. Then, crime will decline. Don't continue to be irresponsible and "patch" the consequences by killing an innocent life (or read: soon-to-be-life.)
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This says more about your distaste for recreational sex than your grasp of the sociological context we're dealing with. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty much, yeah. "Recreational Sex"... is an oxymoron if you ask me. Sex should be about commitment as well as pleasure.
As for the sociological context... care to enlighten me? (Not rhetorical, not condescending, actually asking.) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A couple that is committed to each other automatically wants kids?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> IMO, recreational sex is the best kind. No annoying commitment to get in the way.
Of course if you find someone you're ready to enter into a commitment like, say, marriage, with, then by all means have... what do you call it? Plain sex or something?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is, after years of sleeping around, it's really quite tough to enter into a marriage relationship with a one-woman commitment. I've seen it happen but it's not easy. Marriage doesn't change your sex habits. So, well after you're married, you'll still be wanting to have sex with that girl in the bikini on the beach. Marriage won't change that - it's a state of mind that needs to be changed.
It is my opinion that the world has changed sex into something it was never meant to be. Sex should be about two people, coming together as one, for a lifetime, not just one-time. I don't agree with using sex just for pleasure. I don't think that's why sex exists.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A couple that is committed to each other automatically wants kids?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I think you read something of your own into that. If two people are totally committed, then if a child is born, on purpose or not, it will be taken care of because of this committment. So, you may not WANT kids but you'll stay committed if a child is concieved.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 29 2005, 02:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 29 2005, 02:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> IMO, recreational sex is the best kind. No annoying commitment to get in the way.
Of course if you find someone you're ready to enter into a commitment like, say, marriage, with, then by all means have... what do you call it? Plain sex or something?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is, after years of sleeping around, it's really quite tough to enter into a marriage relationship with a one-woman commitment. I've seen it happen but it's not easy. Marriage doesn't change your sex habits. So, well after you're married, you'll still be wanting to have sex with that girl in the bikini on the beach. Marriage won't change that - it's a state of mind that needs to be changed.
It is my opinion that the world has changed sex into something it was never meant to be. Sex should be about two people, coming together as one, for a lifetime, not just one-time. I don't agree with using sex just for pleasure. I don't think that's why sex exists. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Anecdotal evidence. There are plenty of people who were promiscuous when they were young, but are currently faithful to their spouse. I don't think this is a good argument against premarital sex.
On a similiar note, I could say that people who enter into marriage as virgins don't have enough experience to emotionally deal with a sexual partner, and as a result have a horrible marriage. Of course, I'd be wrong, since there are also examples in the opposite direction (i.e. virgins who get married and are successful).
Meh, sex gets better as you stick with one girl.. the two of you find new... ways... to make it better. Some of em may be kinky, but DAMN do they work (lemme give you a lil advice- if you smell a bit of mint on her, start sucking her nipples <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ))
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Apr 30 2005, 08:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Apr 30 2005, 08:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Meh, sex gets better as you stick with one girl.. the two of you find new... ways... to make it better. Some of em may be kinky, but DAMN do they work (lemme give you a lil advice- if you smell a bit of mint on her, start sucking her nipples <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for sharing. >_<
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 29 2005, 07:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 29 2005, 07:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is my opinion that the world has changed sex into something it was never meant to be. Sex should be about two people, coming together as one, for a lifetime, not just one-time. I don't agree with using sex just for pleasure. I don't think that's why sex exists.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A couple that is committed to each other automatically wants kids?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I think you read something of your own into that. If two people are totally committed, then if a child is born, on purpose or not, it will be taken care of because of this committment. So, you may not WANT kids but you'll stay committed if a child is concieved.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not at all, plenty of marriages have broken up even though the couple has kids, even just very young kids. There are even more examples of guys running away once he's got a girl pregnant before marriage.
Sex and commitment have nothing to do with each other although, if the two are mixed in together then I'd have thought that on the whole the quality of both would probably go up.
Oh and it is my opinion that the world decides what sex is meant to be and it is usually people that try and replace its meaning with their own illusions. You may think what you wish of it but that doesn't change the fact that in the end sex is, for humans, a pleasurable act first that gets women pregnant sometimes as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sex is, for humans, a pleasurable act first that gets women pregnant sometimes as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That just shows how greedy we've become as a race.
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. Boo. Pleasure without purpose is pain; and when pleasure is the purpose it is but vain. <- <i>I is a poet</i>
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 30 2005, 08:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 30 2005, 08:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sex is, for humans, a pleasurable act first that gets women pregnant sometimes as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That just shows how greedy we've become as a race.
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. Boo. Pleasure without purpose is pain; and when pleasure is the purpose it is but vain. <- <i>I is a poet</i>
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What's wrong with the pursuit of pleasure? Seems better than the pursuit of, say, mild disappointment.
<!--QuoteBegin-Insane+Apr 30 2005, 03:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Insane @ Apr 30 2005, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 30 2005, 08:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 30 2005, 08:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sex is, for humans, a pleasurable act first that gets women pregnant sometimes as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That just shows how greedy we've become as a race.
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. Boo. Pleasure without purpose is pain; and when pleasure is the purpose it is but vain. <- <i>I is a poet</i>
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What's wrong with the pursuit of pleasure? Seems better than the pursuit of, say, mild disappointment. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT.
Why do some people have it set in their heads that pleasure is bad?
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
edited April 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-Caboose+Apr 30 2005, 04:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Caboose @ Apr 30 2005, 04:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Insane+Apr 30 2005, 03:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Insane @ Apr 30 2005, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 30 2005, 08:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 30 2005, 08:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sex is, for humans, a pleasurable act first that gets women pregnant sometimes as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That just shows how greedy we've become as a race.
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. Boo. Pleasure without purpose is pain; and when pleasure is the purpose it is but vain. <- <i>I is a poet</i>
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What's wrong with the pursuit of pleasure? Seems better than the pursuit of, say, mild disappointment. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT.
Why do some people have it set in their heads that pleasure is bad? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I sometimes ask that question as well. It seems some people want to make life boring. If you do not live for pleasure, then what do you live for? Do you work to make money? If you do, what do you spend that money on? I bet you spend it on things that improve your quality of life or entertain you, both of which "GASP" are pleasurable things. The purpose of pleasure is to have an absence of pain in all it's forms, or to at least minimize it. Personally I'm an atheist, I do not believe in an afterlife, so all I have is now. I do things that people would never do because I enjoy life as it unfolds.
My take on the abortion issue: Up to a certain point, it should be ok. Once you start to hit the end of the second trimester, it becomes much more likely the pregnancy is viable, and the fetus could survive outside the body. To me, if one waits that long to have an abortion, they should tough it out. There is a certain line at which a fetus begins to look human and could survive outside the womb (with some additional help). I simply don't see the logic in allowing a possible inventor of fusion power or the next great national leader be terminated at a point in which they could be allowed to survive. Once you get that close, just ride it out.
I could personally never recommend to my partner to get an abortion, I would never want to take away from anything I helped create like that. I do not see a problem with others taking that option however.
Also note the most likely reason sex is pleasurable is a natural adaptation to coax us into doing it. Natural selection is a ***** sometimes.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 30 2005, 08:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 30 2005, 08:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sex is, for humans, a pleasurable act first that gets women pregnant sometimes as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That just shows how greedy we've become as a race.
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. Boo. Pleasure without purpose is pain; and when pleasure is the purpose it is but vain. <- <i>I is a poet</i>
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So is the idea of heaven, being close to god etc not pleasurable? Will you have some kind of purpose up there other than just sit around? Are you sure you aren't just delaying your pleasure now so you can have an infinite amount of it later?
Besides, I've never been one to get my pleasure at the expense of others, I wouldn't call that greedy exactly.
Comments
I am aware of what he meant. His argument (or the book he was quoting's argument) is ridiculous and holds no grounds for debate. You can't say, "we think this might happen so we'll kill the person that might cause it to happen."
Solution: Stop sleeping around. Become responsible. Then, crime will decline. Don't continue to be irresponsible and "patch" the consequences by killing an innocent life (or read: soon-to-be-life.)
~ DarkATi
That said, there are just as many good, responsible women who have abortions due to silly mistakes, bad accidents or unfortunate circumstances.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that were possible ATI... we wouldn't have aids (I'm sure you all would hate my solution to the aids problem so i won't talk about it any further).
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Trev, that's a little unfair. They don't like killing what they view as humans; they'd much rather just have people be more responsible with condom and other contraceptive use. Voila, no babies, no need to kill them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The united states? Put trust in it's education system to solve a problem!?!? OLOLOLOLOL
If we could do that we wouldn't have to pass incredibly ineffective laws regarding drugs and firearms would we?
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
No.
The united states? Put trust in it's education system to solve a problem!?!? OLOLOLOLOL
If we could do that we wouldn't have to pass incredibly ineffective laws regarding drugs and firearms would we?
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, I was just correcting your statement that anti-abortionists want more babies. They quite obviously don't. They want people to be responsible. It's not really a matter of the education system. Condom = no baby and no STDs. That fact has been hammered into our brains as hard as it can be, imo. In fact, the only way it could be pounded into our heads more is if we made commercials concerning STDs and pregnancies like we make commercials concerning drugs. Maybe they should...oh wait, the US is all crazy with the sex content on TV.
Why do you think the laws regarding drugs and firearms are ineffective? Because people aren't educated? No, they're ineffective because people in general are asshats, irresponsible, immoral, and in general really don't give a crap about anything, even potentially dangerous things like drugs and guns. Same thing with sex - it's not that people don't know how to use a condom, it's that they just don't care enough to use one.
No. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And it is people like you that get women pregnant... sometimes ending in abortion. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Mean. True.
~ DarkATi
No. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And it is people like you that get women pregnant... sometimes ending in abortion. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Mean. True.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, no. You forget about contraceptives?
Look... there are very FEW reasons for an abortion... most of them covered by protection
Hell, they have an arm insert that is 99.99% effective in changing the homronal balance and preventing the ABILITY to get pregennt, for up to 5 years I believe it is... once removed, it takes a week and yer back to normal! I mean...c'mon... it isn't hard
Combine this with a condom, a pill, ect... hell... unless god WANTS you preggers, you won't get preggy!
No. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And it is people like you that get women pregnant... sometimes ending in abortion. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Mean. True.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, no. You forget about contraceptives? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forget they don't always work?
<a href='http://womenshealth.about.com/b/a/000564.htm' target='_blank'>http://womenshealth.about.com/b/a/000564.htm</a>
~ DarkATi
No. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And it is people like you that get women pregnant... sometimes ending in abortion. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Mean. True.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, no. You forget about contraceptives? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forget they don't always work?
<a href='http://womenshealth.about.com/b/a/000564.htm' target='_blank'>http://womenshealth.about.com/b/a/000564.htm</a>
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pills and Condoms combined will give a very low failure rate. It's much much easier to get people to use contraceptives than to get people to stop having sex.
A morning after pill would result in even fewer unwanted pregnancies, but some pro-lifers are against killing a day old zygote (made of a few dozen cells).
Or she could carry something like mace, which would prevent the entire situation. If the existence of preventative measures negates the excuse for abortions in consensual sex, why doesnt it for rape? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow. It's taking all my strength not to flame you into oblivion right now.
That said, just because a woman carries a can of Mace doesn't mean she won't get raped. It may decrease her chances, but it doesn't negate them.
Back on topic, if a woman is raped and becomes pregnant as a result nobody has the right to tell her she <i>must</i> carry the child (the same goes for incest). She has become pregnant through means that were not under her control, therefor whatever terminative methods she persues cannot be questioned.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This says more about your distaste for recreational sex than your grasp of the sociological context we're dealing with.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This says more about your distaste for recreational sex than your grasp of the sociological context we're dealing with. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much, yeah. "Recreational Sex"... is an oxymoron if you ask me. Sex should be about commitment as well as pleasure.
As for the sociological context... care to enlighten me? (Not rhetorical, not condescending, actually asking.) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~ DarkATi
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This says more about your distaste for recreational sex than your grasp of the sociological context we're dealing with. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much, yeah. "Recreational Sex"... is an oxymoron if you ask me. Sex should be about commitment as well as pleasure.
As for the sociological context... care to enlighten me? (Not rhetorical, not condescending, actually asking.) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you really have no concept of the fact that sex is actually quite therapeutic for the human body. Which is why, some animals have sex all the time.
Of course if you find someone you're ready to enter into a commitment like, say, marriage, with, then by all means have... what do you call it? Plain sex or something?
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This says more about your distaste for recreational sex than your grasp of the sociological context we're dealing with. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much, yeah. "Recreational Sex"... is an oxymoron if you ask me. Sex should be about commitment as well as pleasure.
As for the sociological context... care to enlighten me? (Not rhetorical, not condescending, actually asking.) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A couple that is committed to each other automatically wants kids?
Of course if you find someone you're ready to enter into a commitment like, say, marriage, with, then by all means have... what do you call it? Plain sex or something?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is, after years of sleeping around, it's really quite tough to enter into a marriage relationship with a one-woman commitment. I've seen it happen but it's not easy. Marriage doesn't change your sex habits. So, well after you're married, you'll still be wanting to have sex with that girl in the bikini on the beach. Marriage won't change that - it's a state of mind that needs to be changed.
It is my opinion that the world has changed sex into something it was never meant to be. Sex should be about two people, coming together as one, for a lifetime, not just one-time. I don't agree with using sex just for pleasure. I don't think that's why sex exists.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A couple that is committed to each other automatically wants kids?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I think you read something of your own into that. If two people are totally committed, then if a child is born, on purpose or not, it will be taken care of because of this committment. So, you may not WANT kids but you'll stay committed if a child is concieved.
~ DarkATi
Of course if you find someone you're ready to enter into a commitment like, say, marriage, with, then by all means have... what do you call it? Plain sex or something?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is, after years of sleeping around, it's really quite tough to enter into a marriage relationship with a one-woman commitment. I've seen it happen but it's not easy. Marriage doesn't change your sex habits. So, well after you're married, you'll still be wanting to have sex with that girl in the bikini on the beach. Marriage won't change that - it's a state of mind that needs to be changed.
It is my opinion that the world has changed sex into something it was never meant to be. Sex should be about two people, coming together as one, for a lifetime, not just one-time. I don't agree with using sex just for pleasure. I don't think that's why sex exists. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anecdotal evidence. There are plenty of people who were promiscuous when they were young, but are currently faithful to their spouse. I don't think this is a good argument against premarital sex.
On a similiar note, I could say that people who enter into marriage as virgins don't have enough experience to emotionally deal with a sexual partner, and as a result have a horrible marriage. Of course, I'd be wrong, since there are also examples in the opposite direction (i.e. virgins who get married and are successful).
Thanks for sharing. >_<
:X
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A couple that is committed to each other automatically wants kids?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I think you read something of your own into that. If two people are totally committed, then if a child is born, on purpose or not, it will be taken care of because of this committment. So, you may not WANT kids but you'll stay committed if a child is concieved.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all, plenty of marriages have broken up even though the couple has kids, even just very young kids. There are even more examples of guys running away once he's got a girl pregnant before marriage.
Sex and commitment have nothing to do with each other although, if the two are mixed in together then I'd have thought that on the whole the quality of both would probably go up.
Oh and it is my opinion that the world decides what sex is meant to be and it is usually people that try and replace its meaning with their own illusions. You may think what you wish of it but that doesn't change the fact that in the end sex is, for humans, a pleasurable act first that gets women pregnant sometimes as well.
That just shows how greedy we've become as a race.
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. Boo. Pleasure without purpose is pain; and when pleasure is the purpose it is but vain.
<- <i>I is a poet</i>
~ DarkATi
That just shows how greedy we've become as a race.
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. Boo. Pleasure without purpose is pain; and when pleasure is the purpose it is but vain.
<- <i>I is a poet</i>
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's wrong with the pursuit of pleasure? Seems better than the pursuit of, say, mild disappointment.
That just shows how greedy we've become as a race.
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. Boo. Pleasure without purpose is pain; and when pleasure is the purpose it is but vain.
<- <i>I is a poet</i>
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's wrong with the pursuit of pleasure? Seems better than the pursuit of, say, mild disappointment. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT.
Why do some people have it set in their heads that pleasure is bad?
That just shows how greedy we've become as a race.
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. Boo. Pleasure without purpose is pain; and when pleasure is the purpose it is but vain.
<- <i>I is a poet</i>
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's wrong with the pursuit of pleasure? Seems better than the pursuit of, say, mild disappointment. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT.
Why do some people have it set in their heads that pleasure is bad? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I sometimes ask that question as well. It seems some people want to make life boring. If you do not live for pleasure, then what do you live for? Do you work to make money? If you do, what do you spend that money on? I bet you spend it on things that improve your quality of life or entertain you, both of which "GASP" are pleasurable things. The purpose of pleasure is to have an absence of pain in all it's forms, or to at least minimize it. Personally I'm an atheist, I do not believe in an afterlife, so all I have is now. I do things that people would never do because I enjoy life as it unfolds.
My take on the abortion issue: Up to a certain point, it should be ok. Once you start to hit the end of the second trimester, it becomes much more likely the pregnancy is viable, and the fetus could survive outside the body. To me, if one waits that long to have an abortion, they should tough it out. There is a certain line at which a fetus begins to look human and could survive outside the womb (with some additional help). I simply don't see the logic in allowing a possible inventor of fusion power or the next great national leader be terminated at a point in which they could be allowed to survive. Once you get that close, just ride it out.
I could personally never recommend to my partner to get an abortion, I would never want to take away from anything I helped create like that. I do not see a problem with others taking that option however.
Also note the most likely reason sex is pleasurable is a natural adaptation to coax us into doing it. Natural selection is a ***** sometimes.
That just shows how greedy we've become as a race.
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. Boo. Pleasure without purpose is pain; and when pleasure is the purpose it is but vain.
<- <i>I is a poet</i>
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So is the idea of heaven, being close to god etc not pleasurable? Will you have some kind of purpose up there other than just sit around? Are you sure you aren't just delaying your pleasure now so you can have an infinite amount of it later?
Besides, I've never been one to get my pleasure at the expense of others, I wouldn't call that greedy exactly.