<!--QuoteBegin-WaterBoy+Mar 31 2005, 11:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WaterBoy @ Mar 31 2005, 11:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DuoGodOfDeath+Mar 31 2005, 06:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuoGodOfDeath @ Mar 31 2005, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Focus fades are very powerful and 3 Marines with armor 1 are no match. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>At least</b> 3 marines and armor 1. Usually more, if your planning on marching to a hive location. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure now lets add the competative part to this. Fade with 3 sensory chambers. So Fade uses ventrilo "5 Marines to building/built hive". Alien team interprets "Woah we better get over there immediatly!" So by the time a Fade is out a SOF lerk should most likely be out onto the playing field. He spores, armor goes down, Fade rushes in with 2 skulks, 3 Marines die easily. Fade runs back gorge heals him and the next 2 are picked off in a matter of seconds.
Armor 1 Marines are pathetic against a focus Fade. Now I'm sure your thinking that this Fade is suppose to go alone and solo out 5 Marines by himself its almost suicide to think that. Sure I wouldn't run into 5 Marines without a lerk sporing the crap out of them. This is just a senerio of what would happen with just a bit of teamwork with a Fade.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Mar 30 2005, 09:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Mar 30 2005, 09:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Cloaking just means the Comm needs to actually use Sensor Sweep for more than a siege attack <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So, you want to have the marine team waste 80+ extra res a game just so he can have the energy in the obs to scan, which is a temporary solution, while sens chambers are permanent?
Either make Scanner's time double/triple, or HOLYCRAPSIGNIFICANTLY lower the energy requirement for scanning, or change it back to a res based scan.
The way it is now just puts another res item out on the field for no reason other than to "keep up"- not adapt.
As I recall the obs decloak effect is permanent just as the SC cloak effect. (In it´s area of effect that is, same as with SC). Not sure about ranges though. Only obs>SC.
So thats not really such a bad investment as you make it sound.
<!--QuoteBegin-Thanatos+Mar 31 2005, 08:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thanatos @ Mar 31 2005, 08:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As I recall the obs decloak effect is permanent just as the SC cloak effect. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Only in range of the obs, not the scan itself. And aliens don't need a SC to cloak.
Also, I know I have been out of the loop a bit, but isn't the order still mostly DMS? Not to mention unless the aliens also have MCs so they can have silence the solution is as simple as a pair of headphones and <i>listening</i>. Yes cloakers sometimes get me because I can't see them yes but often I can hear them and blind fire to get a luck hit which will make them show up clearly. Shotguns are especially effective for this. I can't even begin to describe the many amazing kills I have gotten from people thinking they were sneaking up on me when I spin around and turn the hunter into the hunted because I was listening to the distinctive pitter-pat of Kharaa feet. (or the stomping plod of an onos, in which case you have to either choose flight or fight and likely die either way) Don't forget that each upgrade type is linked to the number of hives and it costs resources to build all that stuff. I've seen cloaking backfire horribly for aliens and I've seen it lead to amazing blitzkriegs that win the game. IF your are a marine and your are going up against cloakers there are two vital tips I can give you:<ul><li>team up into squads</li><li>use shotguns</li><li>spraying the area where you believe a cloaker to be hiding with blind fire</li></ul> But most importantly cloaking is just fun. Fun for the Kharaa as they get to enjoy a rare situation where their enemies can't see them, where they can be stealthy hunters to maul the plodding hoards or marines who have turned their sound off or too low to be of any use. And fun for the marines as it give a very precious "fear factor" that is rarely seen in gamming. You'll get an adrenaline rush from knowing your are in a room with an enemy you can't see who is intent on destroying you. And you'll get even a more of a rush when then enemy shows cunning and sets an ambush, jumping out right in front of your face to rip your friking head off. IF a game can make your jump out of your seat by startling you with fear, if a game can raise your adrenaline, it is not just a good game it is a rare an incredible feat the creators of the game have done to give it that level of immersion and creative ways to put the fear of death back into you.
vote heck <b><span style='color:red'>NO</span></b> to removing cloaking
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, I know I have been out of the loop a bit, but isn't the order still mostly DMS? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->No. All of the chambers are viable now, but SCs are overpowered.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not to mention unless the aliens also have MCs so they can have silence the solution is as simple as a pair of headphones and listening.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Almost all cloakers are walking, so you can't hear them. I don't rely on the occasional idle noise aliens make.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Shotguns are especially effective for this<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And cost 10 res. Making it a requirement for marines spend 10 res to counter a free upgrade is BAD.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->team up into squads<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Read the thread. Even if you're in a squad, a cloaker will still kill or wound one of you, leaving your squad weaker for other aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->spraying the area where you believe a cloaker to be hiding with blind fire<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Giving away your location to every alien in earshot and wasting precious ammo.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But most importantly cloaking is just fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> For you and a very few others. For the rest of us, it's damn irritating. There are plenty of upgrades that could replace it that would be even more atmospheric - I'll dig up some threads from the I&S if you want.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
The solution is to give marines more starting resources as a function of number of players, and then make scanning not so cost inhibitive.
Starting res should be: 90 res + 10res per marine (so 150 for a 6v6), allowing extra obs to be built for scanning and such.
Then, let obs come in with full energy so a comm who *needs* a few scans right there and then won't have ot waste like 100 res at once just to get 5 obs.
Lastly, implement the suggest changes for armor in the thread in my sig (basically revert to 1.04 armor style for marine side, which will significantly increase the number of encounters armor will last through) to give marines more time to weld.
Ok, since arguing why the "build more obs / use teamwork / electrify rt / lock down hives / scan more / use headphones / turn your gamma up / stop rambo / adapt noob" people is impossible, let's argue against the "fun" in Sensory.
There's less fun in sc than there is in shoving a nail through your foot.
I love this game, don't get me wrong. Teamwork/Strategy in a First Person Shooter. The FPS part is dominant, and it should be. If you can keep your mouse over things in your screen while holding down a mousebutton, you should win. The teamwork/strategy part AID you in a reasonable and good dosis to help you do this.
Now, when you play sc, the game suddenly shifts to 70% Teamwork/Strategy, You might as well go play Starcraft.
This game's a shooter, like it or not, and sensory sucks the shooter elements out, and makes whatever do as a player less valuable. How is that fun?
its irritating so we take it out of the game? puzl is a very wise man, and whom i respect greatly, had this to say on the "remove combat" argument on irc one morning.
"how about people stop trying to force their idea of fun on everyone else and play the game"
i believe it applies beautifully here. cloaking is a part of natural selection. stop whining for christ sakes. you moan because they dont use "skill" to kill you? so you want them to go thru the motions your used to so you can kill them? you want them to play the way *you* want them to play? if you wanna stop people using cloak, or adapting it to your own purpose's, start a server, write a plugin and SUYF on the ns webboards.
i read thru 9 pages of complete horse....for lack of a better word...fodder, just to write something you morons are just gonna walk by and keep arguing your inane stupid points. whatever. kthxbai.
"Hey I know, lets stop discussing features all together, that is the way for development I am sure".
Dude, we have the right to say something is <b>not</b> fun as much as the next guy has to say it <b>is</b> fun. If you dont want t read through 9 pages of people discussing this, <u>then dont do it</u>.
<!--QuoteBegin-todd1Ok+Apr 1 2005, 03:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (todd1Ok @ Apr 1 2005, 03:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> its irritating so we take it out of the game? puzl is a very wise man, and whom i respect greatly, had this to say on the "remove combat" argument on irc one morning.
"how about people stop trying to force their idea of fun on everyone else and play the game"
i believe it applies beautifully here. cloaking is a part of natural selection. stop whining for christ sakes. you moan because they dont use "skill" to kill you? so you want them to go thru the motions your used to so you can kill them? you want them to play the way *you* want them to play? if you wanna stop people using cloak, or adapting it to your own purpose's, start a server, write a plugin and SUYF on the ns webboards.
i read thru 9 pages of complete horse....for lack of a better word...fodder, just to write something you morons are just gonna walk by and keep arguing your inane stupid points. whatever. kthxbai. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i think we should all listen to this man. because, if you ignore the problem it WILL go away, and if you repeat something enough times it suddenly becomes true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But most importantly cloaking is just fun. Fun for the Kharaa as they get to enjoy a rare situation where their enemies can't see them, where they can be stealthy hunters to maul the plodding hoards or marines who have turned their sound off or too low to be of any use. And fun for the marines as it give a very precious "fear factor" that is rarely seen in gamming. You'll get an adrenaline rush from knowing your are in a room with an enemy you can't see who is intent on destroying you. And you'll get even a more of a rush when then enemy shows cunning and sets an ambush, jumping out right in front of your face to rip your friking head off. IF a game can make your jump out of your seat by startling you with fear, if a game can raise your adrenaline, it is not just a good game it is a rare an incredible feat the creators of the game have done to give it that level of immersion and creative ways to put the fear of death back into you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sir, you are amazing. amazing at turning black into white. the ways you describe cloaking really thrill me. lets take a look.
fun for aliens fun for marines "fear factor" adrenaline rush jumping out right in front of your face jump out of your seat startling you with fear creative way to put the fear back of death back into you
sorry. none of those appeal or apply to me. if im tired i might enjoy a few laughs on a pub because honestly cloaking guarantees you that kill, usually more. there is NO skill involved in getting that kill.
the next 5 im going to go through with quickly because i simply cannot express "fear" in a computer game. ever. i might be startled by a sudden cloaker, but thats about it.
the last one... yeah. very creative. "fear of death" in a computer game. see above. creative. VERY. CREATIVE. "make the enemy invisible". one of the worst ideas ive ever seen in an online mp game, sorry to say. or perhaps not so sorry.
the only fear i get is getting killed by some newbie player who happens to have cloak lol there's no fun in this at all cloak should be removed
another problem is that at first it thought cloak would force marine players to work together.. but now we have games where all alien players would get cloak and win in 2 minutes.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
In a 10 v 10 pub game, you have sufficient manpower for a trio of three man fire-teams. That's sufficient to kill nodes and cap nozzles simultaneously, whilst covering each other.
In a 6v6, you only have 5 active marines. Covering each other, whilst capping nodes, and requesting scans, severely reduces expansion. RFK rate is also slower, so things like upgrades come slower.
They're different games. I can see how irritated clanners can get by people failing to grasp this.
Random thought:
Perhaps NS might play better at clan level with 8vs8 now, as suggested by digz.
Oh bugger that, every strat would consist of 3 fades and probably an early lerk depending on how you want your chambers dropped. Maybe 8v6 would be fairer. But the numbers are still the same and the aliens will still be stronger.
No worries with sensory anymore... When we all have dual screen nintendo NS/DS, second screen will help us locate those evil cloaked aliens. Way to go deveploment team. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> It will surely fix other balance issues too.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 31 2005, 07:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 31 2005, 07:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> sensory counters fun......... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> what he said...also anyone talking about 10v10 pubs or combat really has no clue how imbalanced the chambers are currently
I agree with Buggy in that sensory chamber changes the game from twitch-play to strategic play.
Perhaps that's why I think it's fun.. after all, if I want twitch play, I can go to one of the umpteen other mods or games out there, after all, you can use teamwork in any of them to boost your chances. If NS is reduced to "FPS with a commander" I think it will have lost a good deal of what drew me to it in the first place. Might as well go play the latest Unreal.
If anything, I want NS to be more RTS with just enough FPS to keep it from having the "Unit A always beats Unit B" syndrome.
Perhaps we can get back to cloaking. Contrary to popular belief, while I don't want to see cloaking removed, I also don't want to see a situation of perceived imbalance remain in the game. So why don't we try and rework the sensory chamber vs marines without gutting it?
Some thoughts off the top of my head?
For aliens:
-Perhaps consider reintroducing the 'decloak sound' when an alien decloaks, but only if they decloak from the cloaking upgrade. (sensory chambers wouldn't have this effect)
-Negate the first attack from a cloaked alien, which would mean that an attack from a cloaked alien would NOT make a sound, and it would NOT cause damage to a marine or marine structure. The only effect the first attack from an alien would have would be to cause them to decloak. (so aside from a possible decloak sound above - the marines don't hear the alien use their attack button the first time) Once the alien has finished their first attack action, (which doesn't take long) they will now be decloaked and any subsequent attacks will be as normal. The end result is that this would make it so that aliens would only be able to attack when decloaked, since the first 'bite' would force them to decloak. Only then would they be able to land any damage on marines. I know this may not provide much extra time, but the extra second (or part second) it takes an alien to complete their first attack (and cause themselves to decloak) can help to even the odds a bit.
For marines:
-I'd love to see a button placed on the top of the commander hud that when pressed would activate a scan, using the center of the current view. (no need to select a scan point since you would just center your comm screen on the area you want and press scan - or bind it to a hotkey) This would make scanning far more intuitive.
-Introduce a 'mini-obs' that would be cheap (10 res) and would just function as a 'front line' building that would be small, 5 seconds to build, and provide the benefit of an observatory's sight, without the high price. The caveat would be that it would provide no 'upgrade' options like main obs, it would be a 'de-cloaking' device only. Weak health means it would not last long against alien attacks.
-Add an option to the resource nodes that would add a 'mini-obs' onto it for 10 res. As such, once built, the node would function as a basic obs, but the benefit would be that aliens would have to kill the node to kill the obs on it.
-As a manner to reduce dependency on energy at the obs, I'd like to see the scan function changed so that there are TWO functions. SCAN and TARGET. The 'scan' would be used to expose an area, and would NOT cost energy. Scan would be limited to a maximum scanning rate of 'so many scans a minute' (5?) to prevent abuse. The TARGET function would work like scan and use energy, and it would be used when targeting alien structures with a siege cannon. In this way we could give marines more scanning ability without giving them an endless supply of scan to use when sieging. (the target scans could also be used if a comm runs out of regular scans - they would still function the same as they do now, but would be limited by available energy) If we use my other suggestion from above, there would now be TWO buttons added to the commander HUD, one for scan and one for target.
I think if these ideas were implemented that marines would be better equipped to deal with cloaking without nuking cloaking itself.
<!--QuoteBegin-UncleCrunch!+Apr 1 2005, 02:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UncleCrunch! @ Apr 1 2005, 02:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> NS is not balanced with 6vs6. It won't be with more players.
10vs10 => 2 rts, then shotgun rush... game over... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I see.....
Why dont you comm terror or exi crunch <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm curious why people think sensory has changed so much.
You can run and stay PARTIALLY cloaked now. However, running aliens are fairly easy to spot even when cloaked (70% cloak) and the clicking claws sound should give it away anyway.
In exchange, you cloak much slower then previously.
The real difference in 3.0 is that skulks actually GET upgrades now.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
It's the combination of free alien upgrades and and also giving Sensory chambers passive SOF that is wrecking hell on marines. Ninja phase gates? Doesn't happen anymore. All skulks get upgrades mean that if sensories ar placed smart (in vents covering wide, important areas that marines HAVE to move through) then marines will have ot deal with cloakus fairly early in the game.
I personally never thought sensory was that bad in b5, but of course aliens are nowhere near as strong in b5 overall no matter what chamber. Remove either the cloaking or the SOF passive ability for SCs and SC will be equal in power to the otehr two chambers, instead of being better.
Savant, I really like your dieas. Will those mini-obs also get energy (maybe less max energy?) to help the comm when seiging? Letting each obs scan only 5 times a minute before "overheating" or something sounds terrific. With 2 obs, the commander would have ALL the scanning he needs (He can scan once every 6 seconds)
I love cloaking. I especially love Cloakbombing (Skulk + Cloak + Xeno) people in CO when the marines are foolish enough not to get MT. There is sheer and utter bliss in such a moment.
Having read it all, though, I think I do agree that it's slightly overpowered - but only with the SC chamber that allows you to "get all upgrades" (by being in range of an SC). I liked that analysis that NGE posted, and agree with / would postulate the following suggestions:
-Make SCs cloak Kharaa structures, but not players -Either make the obs less expensive, make its energy recharge faster, or both.
Disagree with the following: -Only give SoF to players who have it researched.
Marines don't have to research anything to use MT, and aliens shouldn't need to do so just to use the SoF that SCs give. Putting SCs everywhere is an expense in itself, and should give something more to the team than just cloaking structures (which is only useful so much - OCs will reveal themselves, the structures reveal themselves when they get hit, marines can run into them, you can hear DCs healing, etc.).
Comments
<b>At least</b> 3 marines and armor 1. Usually more, if your planning on marching to a hive location. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure now lets add the competative part to this. Fade with 3 sensory chambers. So Fade uses ventrilo "5 Marines to building/built hive". Alien team interprets "Woah we better get over there immediatly!" So by the time a Fade is out a SOF lerk should most likely be out onto the playing field. He spores, armor goes down, Fade rushes in with 2 skulks, 3 Marines die easily. Fade runs back gorge heals him and the next 2 are picked off in a matter of seconds.
Armor 1 Marines are pathetic against a focus Fade. Now I'm sure your thinking that this Fade is suppose to go alone and solo out 5 Marines by himself its almost suicide to think that. Sure I wouldn't run into 5 Marines without a lerk sporing the crap out of them. This is just a senerio of what would happen with just a bit of teamwork with a Fade.
So, you want to have the marine team waste 80+ extra res a game just so he can have the energy in the obs to scan, which is a temporary solution, while sens chambers are permanent?
Either make Scanner's time double/triple, or HOLYCRAPSIGNIFICANTLY lower the energy requirement for scanning, or change it back to a res based scan.
The way it is now just puts another res item out on the field for no reason other than to "keep up"- not adapt.
(In it´s area of effect that is, same as with SC). Not sure about ranges though.
Only obs>SC.
So thats not really such a bad investment as you make it sound.
Only in range of the obs, not the scan itself. And aliens don't need a SC to cloak.
Also, I know I have been out of the loop a bit, but isn't the order still mostly DMS? Not to mention unless the aliens also have MCs so they can have silence the solution is as simple as a pair of headphones and <i>listening</i>. Yes cloakers sometimes get me because I can't see them yes but often I can hear them and blind fire to get a luck hit which will make them show up clearly. Shotguns are especially effective for this. I can't even begin to describe the many amazing kills I have gotten from people thinking they were sneaking up on me when I spin around and turn the hunter into the hunted because I was listening to the distinctive pitter-pat of Kharaa feet. (or the stomping plod of an onos, in which case you have to either choose flight or fight and likely die either way) Don't forget that each upgrade type is linked to the number of hives and it costs resources to build all that stuff. I've seen cloaking backfire horribly for aliens and I've seen it lead to amazing blitzkriegs that win the game. IF your are a marine and your are going up against cloakers there are two vital tips I can give you:<ul><li>team up into squads</li><li>use shotguns</li><li>spraying the area where you believe a cloaker to be hiding with blind fire</li></ul>
But most importantly cloaking is just fun. Fun for the Kharaa as they get to enjoy a rare situation where their enemies can't see them, where they can be stealthy hunters to maul the plodding hoards or marines who have turned their sound off or too low to be of any use. And fun for the marines as it give a very precious "fear factor" that is rarely seen in gamming. You'll get an adrenaline rush from knowing your are in a room with an enemy you can't see who is intent on destroying you. And you'll get even a more of a rush when then enemy shows cunning and sets an ambush, jumping out right in front of your face to rip your friking head off. IF a game can make your jump out of your seat by startling you with fear, if a game can raise your adrenaline, it is not just a good game it is a rare an incredible feat the creators of the game have done to give it that level of immersion and creative ways to put the fear of death back into you.
vote heck <b><span style='color:red'>NO</span></b> to removing cloaking
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not to mention unless the aliens also have MCs so they can have silence the solution is as simple as a pair of headphones and listening.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Almost all cloakers are walking, so you can't hear them. I don't rely on the occasional idle noise aliens make.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Shotguns are especially effective for this<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And cost 10 res. Making it a requirement for marines spend 10 res to counter a free upgrade is BAD.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->team up into squads<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Read the thread. Even if you're in a squad, a cloaker will still kill or wound one of you, leaving your squad weaker for other aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->spraying the area where you believe a cloaker to be hiding with blind fire<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Giving away your location to every alien in earshot and wasting precious ammo.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But most importantly cloaking is just fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> For you and a very few others. For the rest of us, it's damn irritating. There are plenty of upgrades that could replace it that would be even more atmospheric - I'll dig up some threads from the I&S if you want.
Starting res should be: 90 res + 10res per marine (so 150 for a 6v6), allowing extra obs to be built for scanning and such.
Then, let obs come in with full energy so a comm who *needs* a few scans right there and then won't have ot waste like 100 res at once just to get 5 obs.
Lastly, implement the suggest changes for armor in the thread in my sig (basically revert to 1.04 armor style for marine side, which will significantly increase the number of encounters armor will last through) to give marines more time to weld.
There's less fun in sc than there is in shoving a nail through your foot.
I love this game, don't get me wrong. Teamwork/Strategy in a First Person Shooter. The FPS part is dominant, and it should be. If you can keep your mouse over things in your screen while holding down a mousebutton, you should win. The teamwork/strategy part AID you in a reasonable and good dosis to help you do this.
Now, when you play sc, the game suddenly shifts to 70% Teamwork/Strategy, You might as well go play Starcraft.
This game's a shooter, like it or not, and sensory sucks the shooter elements out, and makes whatever do as a player less valuable. How is that fun?
"how about people stop trying to force their idea of fun on everyone else and play the game"
i believe it applies beautifully here. cloaking is a part of natural selection. stop whining for christ sakes. you moan because they dont use "skill" to kill you? so you want them to go thru the motions your used to so you can kill them?
you want them to play the way *you* want them to play? if you wanna stop people using cloak, or adapting it to your own purpose's, start a server, write a plugin and SUYF on the ns webboards.
i read thru 9 pages of complete horse....for lack of a better word...fodder, just to write something you morons are just gonna walk by and keep arguing your inane stupid points. whatever.
kthxbai.
Dude, we have the right to say something is <b>not</b> fun as much as the next guy has to say it <b>is</b> fun. If you dont want t read through 9 pages of people discussing this, <u>then dont do it</u>.
"how about people stop trying to force their idea of fun on everyone else and play the game"
i believe it applies beautifully here. cloaking is a part of natural selection. stop whining for christ sakes. you moan because they dont use "skill" to kill you? so you want them to go thru the motions your used to so you can kill them?
you want them to play the way *you* want them to play? if you wanna stop people using cloak, or adapting it to your own purpose's, start a server, write a plugin and SUYF on the ns webboards.
i read thru 9 pages of complete horse....for lack of a better word...fodder, just to write something you morons are just gonna walk by and keep arguing your inane stupid points. whatever.
kthxbai. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think we should all listen to this man. because, if you ignore the problem it WILL go away, and if you repeat something enough times it suddenly becomes true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
But most importantly cloaking is just fun. Fun for the Kharaa as they get to enjoy a rare situation where their enemies can't see them, where they can be stealthy hunters to maul the plodding hoards or marines who have turned their sound off or too low to be of any use. And fun for the marines as it give a very precious "fear factor" that is rarely seen in gamming. You'll get an adrenaline rush from knowing your are in a room with an enemy you can't see who is intent on destroying you. And you'll get even a more of a rush when then enemy shows cunning and sets an ambush, jumping out right in front of your face to rip your friking head off. IF a game can make your jump out of your seat by startling you with fear, if a game can raise your adrenaline, it is not just a good game it is a rare an incredible feat the creators of the game have done to give it that level of immersion and creative ways to put the fear of death back into you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sir, you are amazing. amazing at turning black into white. the ways you describe cloaking really thrill me. lets take a look.
fun for aliens
fun for marines
"fear factor"
adrenaline rush
jumping out right in front of your face
jump out of your seat startling you with fear
creative way to put the fear back of death back into you
sorry. none of those appeal or apply to me. if im tired i might enjoy a few laughs on a pub because honestly cloaking guarantees you that kill, usually more. there is NO skill involved in getting that kill.
the next 5 im going to go through with quickly because i simply cannot express "fear" in a computer game. ever. i might be startled by a sudden cloaker, but thats about it.
the last one... yeah. very creative. "fear of death" in a computer game. see above. creative. VERY. CREATIVE. "make the enemy invisible". one of the worst ideas ive ever seen in an online mp game, sorry to say. or perhaps not so sorry.
another problem is that at first it thought cloak would force marine players to work together.. but now we have games where all alien players would get cloak and win in 2 minutes.
EDIT: Play NS enough and any atmosphere that was present will go. Hard to be intimidated by things you understand and have faced 1000 times.
In a 6v6, you only have 5 active marines. Covering each other, whilst capping nodes, and requesting scans, severely reduces expansion. RFK rate is also slower, so things like upgrades come slower.
They're different games. I can see how irritated clanners can get by people failing to grasp this.
Random thought:
Perhaps NS might play better at clan level with 8vs8 now, as suggested by digz.
<b>4</b> fades, 1 hive, 2 rts, 1 chambers
3 fades, 1 lerk, 1 hive, 2 rts, 1 chambers
3 fades, 1 hive, 2 rts, 2 chambers
etc etc etc etc
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> 4X::fade:: Sounds fun.
It won't be with more players.
10vs10 => 2 rts, then shotgun rush... game over...
what he said...also anyone talking about 10v10 pubs or combat really has no clue how imbalanced the chambers are currently
Perhaps that's why I think it's fun.. after all, if I want twitch play, I can go to one of the umpteen other mods or games out there, after all, you can use teamwork in any of them to boost your chances. If NS is reduced to "FPS with a commander" I think it will have lost a good deal of what drew me to it in the first place. Might as well go play the latest Unreal.
If anything, I want NS to be more RTS with just enough FPS to keep it from having the "Unit A always beats Unit B" syndrome.
Some thoughts off the top of my head?
For aliens:
-Perhaps consider reintroducing the 'decloak sound' when an alien decloaks, but only if they decloak from the cloaking upgrade. (sensory chambers wouldn't have this effect)
-Negate the first attack from a cloaked alien, which would mean that an attack from a cloaked alien would NOT make a sound, and it would NOT cause damage to a marine or marine structure. The only effect the first attack from an alien would have would be to cause them to decloak. (so aside from a possible decloak sound above - the marines don't hear the alien use their attack button the first time) Once the alien has finished their first attack action, (which doesn't take long) they will now be decloaked and any subsequent attacks will be as normal. The end result is that this would make it so that aliens would only be able to attack when decloaked, since the first 'bite' would force them to decloak. Only then would they be able to land any damage on marines. I know this may not provide much extra time, but the extra second (or part second) it takes an alien to complete their first attack (and cause themselves to decloak) can help to even the odds a bit.
For marines:
-I'd love to see a button placed on the top of the commander hud that when pressed would activate a scan, using the center of the current view. (no need to select a scan point since you would just center your comm screen on the area you want and press scan - or bind it to a hotkey) This would make scanning far more intuitive.
-Introduce a 'mini-obs' that would be cheap (10 res) and would just function as a 'front line' building that would be small, 5 seconds to build, and provide the benefit of an observatory's sight, without the high price. The caveat would be that it would provide no 'upgrade' options like main obs, it would be a 'de-cloaking' device only. Weak health means it would not last long against alien attacks.
-Add an option to the resource nodes that would add a 'mini-obs' onto it for 10 res. As such, once built, the node would function as a basic obs, but the benefit would be that aliens would have to kill the node to kill the obs on it.
-As a manner to reduce dependency on energy at the obs, I'd like to see the scan function changed so that there are TWO functions. SCAN and TARGET. The 'scan' would be used to expose an area, and would NOT cost energy. Scan would be limited to a maximum scanning rate of 'so many scans a minute' (5?) to prevent abuse. The TARGET function would work like scan and use energy, and it would be used when targeting alien structures with a siege cannon. In this way we could give marines more scanning ability without giving them an endless supply of scan to use when sieging. (the target scans could also be used if a comm runs out of regular scans - they would still function the same as they do now, but would be limited by available energy) If we use my other suggestion from above, there would now be TWO buttons added to the commander HUD, one for scan and one for target.
I think if these ideas were implemented that marines would be better equipped to deal with cloaking without nuking cloaking itself.
Regards,
Savant
Which i actually like..
~Jason
It won't be with more players.
10vs10 => 2 rts, then shotgun rush... game over... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see.....
Why dont you comm terror or exi crunch <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Edit: BTW you might want to update your sig.
You can run and stay PARTIALLY cloaked now. However, running aliens are fairly easy to spot even when cloaked (70% cloak) and the clicking claws sound should give it away anyway.
In exchange, you cloak much slower then previously.
The real difference in 3.0 is that skulks actually GET upgrades now.
I personally never thought sensory was that bad in b5, but of course aliens are nowhere near as strong in b5 overall no matter what chamber. Remove either the cloaking or the SOF passive ability for SCs and SC will be equal in power to the otehr two chambers, instead of being better.
Savant, I really like your dieas. Will those mini-obs also get energy (maybe less max energy?) to help the comm when seiging? Letting each obs scan only 5 times a minute before "overheating" or something sounds terrific. With 2 obs, the commander would have ALL the scanning he needs (He can scan once every 6 seconds)
Having read it all, though, I think I do agree that it's slightly overpowered - but only with the SC chamber that allows you to "get all upgrades" (by being in range of an SC). I liked that analysis that NGE posted, and agree with / would postulate the following suggestions:
-Make SCs cloak Kharaa structures, but not players
-Either make the obs less expensive, make its energy recharge faster, or both.
Disagree with the following:
-Only give SoF to players who have it researched.
Marines don't have to research anything to use MT, and aliens shouldn't need to do so just to use the SoF that SCs give. Putting SCs everywhere is an expense in itself, and should give something more to the team than just cloaking structures (which is only useful so much - OCs will reveal themselves, the structures reveal themselves when they get hit, marines can run into them, you can hear DCs healing, etc.).