<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Feb 15 2005, 02:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 15 2005, 02:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cookiebooger+Feb 15 2005, 02:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cookiebooger @ Feb 15 2005, 02:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Feb 15 2005, 02:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 15 2005, 02:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> God will forgive you if you commit manslaughter, as long as you repent. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is so untrue. God will never forgive you for taking someone else's life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong. Romans 8:1 There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Oh by the way, keep in mind, the Apostle Paul oversaw the stoning of Stephen, and persecuted the church of God. He later wrote most of the New Testament, and became one of the most powerful and erudite witnesses for Christ.
His grace is sufficient to cover over all transgressions. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is one of the worst elements of Christianity. You could have been a murdering, genocidal, sociopathic rapist, but still get into heaven if you repent on your death bed.
What most people fail to realize is that one sin is just as bad as another. "Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God," and "The wages of sin is death." We're all worthy of the same punishment that we ourselves would heap on that murderer, because any sin is a barefaced rebellion against God.
Every single person has fallen short of God's standards, and none of us have any right to say that another person is worse than we. "Let he without sin throw the first stone."
Christianity is not about what we do at all, but about what God has done for us. Christ died on the cross not to give us an inspiration for what to live for, but to pay for our wrongs. The focus of the faith is all on God, none of it rests on ourselves.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Feb 15 2005, 05:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Feb 15 2005, 05:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is one of the worst elements of Christianity. You could have been a murdering, genocidal, sociopathic rapist, but still get into heaven if you repent on your death bed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Huh? What's wrong with that?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is one of the worst elements of Christianity. You could have been a murdering, genocidal, sociopathic rapist, but still get into heaven if you repent on your death bed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The first thing I would do is question that repentance - I'm not God, and I can't judge the heart, but if Hitler had "repented" I would be highly sceptical.
There is also the element of God giving people over to their sinful desires - a point of no return if you will. Where that point is, I don't know - but I believe there is Biblical evidence for it. For instance, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were "given over to the lusts of thier flesh", and Pharaoh (warp to egypt) had his heart intentionally hardened by God so that the fullness of the 10 plagues might be revealed.
So yeah, it is a cop out answer - When people die, God sorts them out - but at the same time, there is no way that I would want that responsibility.
Is it possible then for such a sinner to get to heaven, Yes - with true repentance. Is it likely? - All signs point to NO. Should people live their life banking on the opportunity for a death bed repentance? - I believe God is smart enough to tell the difference between the truely sorry, and those trying to squeeze through the pearly gates.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Feb 15 2005, 06:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Feb 15 2005, 06:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Feb 15 2005, 05:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Feb 15 2005, 05:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is one of the worst elements of Christianity. You could have been a murdering, genocidal, sociopathic rapist, but still get into heaven if you repent on your death bed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Huh? What's wrong with that? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because someone can commit innumerable crimes during his life, but repent 5 minutes before he dies, and go to an eternal paradise in heaven, while someone who has spent his life devoted to charity would be sent to hell/purgatory just because he wasn't a Christian.
I believe that people can repent for their sins (not specifically in a religious sense) and start life anew as a good person. However, eternally sending someone to perfect paradise or the worst possible agony, based upon such an arbitrary concept as a belief and acceptance of Jesus, is evil. Eternally consigning someone to anything is bad.
Repenting for sins should come from good acts, not from some 5 minute death bed epiphany.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Feb 15 2005, 08:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Feb 15 2005, 08:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Feb 15 2005, 06:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Feb 15 2005, 06:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Feb 15 2005, 05:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Feb 15 2005, 05:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is one of the worst elements of Christianity. You could have been a murdering, genocidal, sociopathic rapist, but still get into heaven if you repent on your death bed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Huh? What's wrong with that? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because someone can commit innumerable crimes during his life, but repent 5 minutes before he dies, and go to an eternal paradise in heaven, while someone who has spent his life devoted to charity would be sent to hell/purgatory just because he wasn't a Christian.
I believe that people can repent for their sins (not specifically in a religious sense) and start life anew as a good person. However, eternally sending someone to perfect paradise or the worst possible agony, based upon such an arbitrary concept as a belief and acceptance of Jesus, is evil. Eternally consigning someone to anything is bad.
Repenting for sins should come from good acts, not from some 5 minute death bed epiphany. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, the concept isn't the belief and acceptace of Christ that's the problem, really. That's just the defacto bottom line. If someone managed to live their life up to God's expectations, IE, without sin, then there'd be no problem.
Accepting Christ is the benchmark simply because it's how the sins we've committed are paid for.
Also, take note of the fact that all the work done to allow that sinner to get to heaven has been done by God. If you hate the fact that someone hateful might one day see heaven, then you hate the fact that God is loving.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Because someone can commit innumerable crimes during his life, but repent 5 minutes before he dies, and go to an eternal paradise in heaven, while someone who has spent his life devoted to charity would be sent to hell/purgatory just because he wasn't a Christian. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it hasn't been said before, i'm doing it now. All sins are equal in God's eyes. There.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I believe that people can repent for their sins (not specifically in a religious sense) and start life anew as a good person. However, eternally sending someone to perfect paradise or the worst possible agony, based upon such an arbitrary concept as a belief and acceptance of Jesus, is evil. Eternally consigning someone to anything is bad. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah well, that's your opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Repenting for sins should come from good acts, not from some 5 minute death bed epiphany. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See: "All good deeds are like filthy rags in God's eye's," Bible verse...whatever that may be.
In short, no one (well, not me) is going to force you to believe anything you don't want to. However, I think it will be fun to see who was right about the afterlife. ...Do we stop existing? Or is there a Heaven or Hell waiting us? This is off topic but I don't why not take full coverage and pick a religion rather than going agnostic/athiest and throwing any chance of getting something good when they die into the wind. Oh well... Their choice.
<!--QuoteBegin-Crisqo+Feb 15 2005, 10:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Feb 15 2005, 10:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, the concept isn't the belief and acceptace of Christ that's the problem, really. That's just the defacto bottom line. If someone managed to live their life up to God's expectations, IE, without sin, then there'd be no problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? I've heard many Christians say that the sole determinant of getting into heaven is belief in and acceptance of Jesus. I didn't think that any works that you perform on Earth really mattered. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is off topic but I don't why not take full coverage and pick a religion rather than going agnostic/athiest and throwing any chance of getting something good when they die into the wind. Oh well... Their choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's called Pascal's Wager: <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager' target='_blank'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager</a>
A few key points: That assumes that a Christian god exists. That assumes that a reward is infinite. That assumes that the chance of god's existence is not 0.
Also, do you think people should pick a religion solely because they will go to heaven, rather than because they agree with the principles and beliefs of that religion?
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Feb 15 2005, 10:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Feb 15 2005, 10:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Crisqo+Feb 15 2005, 10:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Feb 15 2005, 10:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, the concept isn't the belief and acceptace of Christ that's the problem, really. That's just the defacto bottom line. If someone managed to live their life up to God's expectations, IE, without sin, then there'd be no problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? I've heard many Christians say that the sole determinant of getting into heaven is belief in and acceptance of Jesus. I didn't think that any works that you perform on Earth really mattered. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They don't, in the sense that you can't work your way out of a depraved state. Your natural state is not in a pit with no way out, but blameless with nothing damning against you. Sin negates that, and no ammount of good works (read, acting as you were supposed to act) can override that.
As I said before, since everyone is sinful, the end effect is that everyone needs Christ, but we wouldn't if we didn't muck things up.
EDIT: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A few key points: That assumes that a Christian god exists. That assumes that a reward is infinite. That assumes that the chance of god's existence is not 0.
Also, do you think people should pick a religion solely because they will go to heaven, rather than because they agree with the principles and beliefs of that religion? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the chance of God's existance is 0, then there is no greater purpose. If I get more joy out of the Christian lifestyle, as I do, then more power to me. So, by trying it out, reading the Bible, I may find myself believing in the God of the Bible anyway.
An infinite God would grant us fellowship with him, infinately.
And, it doesn't matter which God it is. We get from Pascal's Wager that we should look at all the world's religions critically, and see which one has the greatest chance of being true.
That is <a href='http://tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.html' target='_blank'>undoubtedly</a> <a href='http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q1207/point2.html' target='_blank'>Christianity.</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Feb 15 2005, 10:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Feb 15 2005, 10:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A few key points: That assumes that a Christian god exists. That assumes that a reward is infinite. That assumes that the chance of god's existence is not 0. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You're forgetting: It assumes that you can make yourself believe something in spite of all the reasons you don't believe in it now It assumes the christian God is the only possibility It assumes that you care wether or not you go to heaven
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Feb 15 2005, 10:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 15 2005, 10:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Feb 15 2005, 10:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Feb 15 2005, 10:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Crisqo+Feb 15 2005, 10:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Feb 15 2005, 10:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, the concept isn't the belief and acceptace of Christ that's the problem, really. That's just the defacto bottom line. If someone managed to live their life up to God's expectations, IE, without sin, then there'd be no problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? I've heard many Christians say that the sole determinant of getting into heaven is belief in and acceptance of Jesus. I didn't think that any works that you perform on Earth really mattered. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They don't, in the sense that you can't work your way out of a depraved state. Your natural state is not in a pit with no way out, but blameless with nothing damning against you. Sin negates that, and no ammount of good works (read, acting as you were supposed to act) can override that.
As I said before, since everyone is sinful, the end effect is that everyone needs Christ, but we wouldn't if we didn't muck things up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So if you perform a minor sin once, then you're screwed unless you are a Christian?
Note: Yes, you said that all sins are equal in God's eyes, but it shouldn't be that way (and humans certainly don't think of all sins being equal, which is why speeding results in a fine, but murder results in life in prison). If we violate one of the seven deadly sins, say Lust, by lusting after our neighbor, even without performing any action against her, then we can't go to heaven, no matter how virtuous the rest of our life is.
Frankly, in my opinion, that sucks. It's evil to damn someone for eternity for such a minor act.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Feb 15 2005, 10:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Feb 15 2005, 10:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Feb 15 2005, 10:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Feb 15 2005, 10:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A few key points: That assumes that a Christian god exists. That assumes that a reward is infinite. That assumes that the chance of god's existence is not 0. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're forgetting: It assumes that you can make yourself believe something in spite of all the reasons you don't believe in it now It assumes the christian God is the only possibility It assumes that you care wether or not you go to heaven <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, I know. I just put down a few of them. The wikipedia article is good and people should read it if they are interested in discussing the topic.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Feb 15 2005, 10:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Feb 15 2005, 10:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So if you perform a minor sin once, then you're screwed unless you are a Christian?
Note: Yes, you said that all sins are equal in God's eyes, but it shouldn't be that way (and humans certainly don't think of all sins being equal, which is why speeding results in a fine, but murder results in life in prison). If we violate one of the seven deadly sins, say Lust, by lusting after our neighbor, even without performing any action against her, then we can't go to heaven, no matter how virtuous the rest of our life is.
Frankly, in my opinion, that sucks. It's evil to damn someone for eternity for such a minor act. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all, the 7 deadly sins is an idea with absolutely 0 Biblical backing whatsoever. It's just a fancy bit of Catholic Church tradition.
If you haven't already, you should read at least the first section of C.S. Lewis <u>Mere Christianity.</u> Lewis was in the same predicament, hating the way that God's moral system works.
The realization that he came to, was that the only way that he could say that God was unjustified by his actions is by abritrarily asserting that his own moral system was correct and God's was wrong. That's completely baseless.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Feb 15 2005, 11:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 15 2005, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The realization that he came to, was that the only way that he could say that God was unjustified by his actions is by abritrarily asserting that his own moral system was correct and God's was wrong. That's completely baseless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That of course assumes that God is perfect, that the christian God is the one and only, that christian literiture interprets God's morality correctly, and that God isn't lying.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Feb 15 2005, 11:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 15 2005, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you haven't already, you should read at least the first section of C.S. Lewis <u>Mere Christianity.</u> Lewis was in the same predicament, hating the way that God's moral system works. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But lusting (coveting) after my neighbor (or his wife, if he's male) would still be a sin, right?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The realization that he came to, was that the only way that he could say that God was unjustified by his actions is by abritrarily asserting that his own moral system was correct and God's was wrong. That's completely baseless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the Christian God existed, then I would be wrong, as much as I don't like his moral system. I do see a contradiction there, however. If the Christian God does exist, then he is the ultimate source for good. Why would his moral system be so crappy then? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Crisqo+Feb 15 2005, 10:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Feb 15 2005, 10:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is off topic but I don't why not take full coverage and pick a religion rather than going agnostic/athiest and throwing any chance of getting something good when they die into the wind. Oh well... Their choice. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're assuming that I can just start believing in a God, just like that. If it was a fully concious decision, I probably would still be a Christian. The idea of a loving God is a pretty nice thing to have. However, it isn't, so I'm not, so I'm going to hell. :/
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah. I wonder how long it'll take for this thread to get locked for being off-topic...I'm surprised it hasn't been locked down yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Might as well have some fun while it's around. I say...one more post after this, then lockage.
Comments
This is so untrue. God will never forgive you for taking someone else's life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong.
Romans 8:1 There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Oh by the way, keep in mind, the Apostle Paul oversaw the stoning of Stephen, and persecuted the church of God. He later wrote most of the New Testament, and became one of the most powerful and erudite witnesses for Christ.
His grace is sufficient to cover over all transgressions. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is one of the worst elements of Christianity. You could have been a murdering, genocidal, sociopathic rapist, but still get into heaven if you repent on your death bed.
Every single person has fallen short of God's standards, and none of us have any right to say that another person is worse than we. "Let he without sin throw the first stone."
Christianity is not about what we do at all, but about what God has done for us. Christ died on the cross not to give us an inspiration for what to live for, but to pay for our wrongs. The focus of the faith is all on God, none of it rests on ourselves.
Huh? What's wrong with that?
The first thing I would do is question that repentance - I'm not God, and I can't judge the heart, but if Hitler had "repented" I would be highly sceptical.
There is also the element of God giving people over to their sinful desires - a point of no return if you will. Where that point is, I don't know - but I believe there is Biblical evidence for it. For instance, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were "given over to the lusts of thier flesh", and Pharaoh (warp to egypt) had his heart intentionally hardened by God so that the fullness of the 10 plagues might be revealed.
So yeah, it is a cop out answer - When people die, God sorts them out - but at the same time, there is no way that I would want that responsibility.
Is it possible then for such a sinner to get to heaven, Yes - with true repentance. Is it likely? - All signs point to NO. Should people live their life banking on the opportunity for a death bed repentance? - I believe God is smart enough to tell the difference between the truely sorry, and those trying to squeeze through the pearly gates.
Huh? What's wrong with that? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because someone can commit innumerable crimes during his life, but repent 5 minutes before he dies, and go to an eternal paradise in heaven, while someone who has spent his life devoted to charity would be sent to hell/purgatory just because he wasn't a Christian.
I believe that people can repent for their sins (not specifically in a religious sense) and start life anew as a good person. However, eternally sending someone to perfect paradise or the worst possible agony, based upon such an arbitrary concept as a belief and acceptance of Jesus, is evil. Eternally consigning someone to anything is bad.
Repenting for sins should come from good acts, not from some 5 minute death bed epiphany.
Huh? What's wrong with that? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because someone can commit innumerable crimes during his life, but repent 5 minutes before he dies, and go to an eternal paradise in heaven, while someone who has spent his life devoted to charity would be sent to hell/purgatory just because he wasn't a Christian.
I believe that people can repent for their sins (not specifically in a religious sense) and start life anew as a good person. However, eternally sending someone to perfect paradise or the worst possible agony, based upon such an arbitrary concept as a belief and acceptance of Jesus, is evil. Eternally consigning someone to anything is bad.
Repenting for sins should come from good acts, not from some 5 minute death bed epiphany. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, the concept isn't the belief and acceptace of Christ that's the problem, really. That's just the defacto bottom line. If someone managed to live their life up to God's expectations, IE, without sin, then there'd be no problem.
Accepting Christ is the benchmark simply because it's how the sins we've committed are paid for.
Also, take note of the fact that all the work done to allow that sinner to get to heaven has been done by God. If you hate the fact that someone hateful might one day see heaven, then you hate the fact that God is loving.
Because someone can commit innumerable crimes during his life, but repent 5 minutes before he dies, and go to an eternal paradise in heaven, while someone who has spent his life devoted to charity would be sent to hell/purgatory just because he wasn't a Christian.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it hasn't been said before, i'm doing it now. All sins are equal in God's eyes. There.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I believe that people can repent for their sins (not specifically in a religious sense) and start life anew as a good person. However, eternally sending someone to perfect paradise or the worst possible agony, based upon such an arbitrary concept as a belief and acceptance of Jesus, is evil. Eternally consigning someone to anything is bad.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah well, that's your opinion.
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Repenting for sins should come from good acts, not from some 5 minute death bed epiphany. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See: "All good deeds are like filthy rags in God's eye's," Bible verse...whatever that may be.
In short, no one (well, not me) is going to force you to believe anything you don't want to. However, I think it will be fun to see who was right about the afterlife. ...Do we stop existing? Or is there a Heaven or Hell waiting us?
This is off topic but I don't why not take full coverage and pick a religion rather than going agnostic/athiest and throwing any chance of getting something good when they die into the wind. Oh well... Their choice.
Really? I've heard many Christians say that the sole determinant of getting into heaven is belief in and acceptance of Jesus. I didn't think that any works that you perform on Earth really mattered.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is off topic but I don't why not take full coverage and pick a religion rather than going agnostic/athiest and throwing any chance of getting something good when they die into the wind. Oh well... Their choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's called Pascal's Wager:
<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager' target='_blank'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager</a>
A few key points:
That assumes that a Christian god exists.
That assumes that a reward is infinite.
That assumes that the chance of god's existence is not 0.
Also, do you think people should pick a religion solely because they will go to heaven, rather than because they agree with the principles and beliefs of that religion?
Really? I've heard many Christians say that the sole determinant of getting into heaven is belief in and acceptance of Jesus. I didn't think that any works that you perform on Earth really mattered. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They don't, in the sense that you can't work your way out of a depraved state. Your natural state is not in a pit with no way out, but blameless with nothing damning against you. Sin negates that, and no ammount of good works (read, acting as you were supposed to act) can override that.
As I said before, since everyone is sinful, the end effect is that everyone needs Christ, but we wouldn't if we didn't muck things up.
EDIT: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A few key points:
That assumes that a Christian god exists.
That assumes that a reward is infinite.
That assumes that the chance of god's existence is not 0.
Also, do you think people should pick a religion solely because they will go to heaven, rather than because they agree with the principles and beliefs of that religion?
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If the chance of God's existance is 0, then there is no greater purpose. If I get more joy out of the Christian lifestyle, as I do, then more power to me. So, by trying it out, reading the Bible, I may find myself believing in the God of the Bible anyway.
An infinite God would grant us fellowship with him, infinately.
And, it doesn't matter which God it is. We get from Pascal's Wager that we should look at all the world's religions critically, and see which one has the greatest chance of being true.
That is <a href='http://tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.html' target='_blank'>undoubtedly</a> <a href='http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q1207/point2.html' target='_blank'>Christianity.</a>
That assumes that a Christian god exists.
That assumes that a reward is infinite.
That assumes that the chance of god's existence is not 0.
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You're forgetting:
It assumes that you can make yourself believe something in spite of all the reasons you don't believe in it now
It assumes the christian God is the only possibility
It assumes that you care wether or not you go to heaven
Really? I've heard many Christians say that the sole determinant of getting into heaven is belief in and acceptance of Jesus. I didn't think that any works that you perform on Earth really mattered. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They don't, in the sense that you can't work your way out of a depraved state. Your natural state is not in a pit with no way out, but blameless with nothing damning against you. Sin negates that, and no ammount of good works (read, acting as you were supposed to act) can override that.
As I said before, since everyone is sinful, the end effect is that everyone needs Christ, but we wouldn't if we didn't muck things up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if you perform a minor sin once, then you're screwed unless you are a Christian?
Note: Yes, you said that all sins are equal in God's eyes, but it shouldn't be that way (and humans certainly don't think of all sins being equal, which is why speeding results in a fine, but murder results in life in prison). If we violate one of the seven deadly sins, say Lust, by lusting after our neighbor, even without performing any action against her, then we can't go to heaven, no matter how virtuous the rest of our life is.
Frankly, in my opinion, that sucks. It's evil to damn someone for eternity for such a minor act.
That assumes that a Christian god exists.
That assumes that a reward is infinite.
That assumes that the chance of god's existence is not 0.
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You're forgetting:
It assumes that you can make yourself believe something in spite of all the reasons you don't believe in it now
It assumes the christian God is the only possibility
It assumes that you care wether or not you go to heaven <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I know. I just put down a few of them. The wikipedia article is good and people should read it if they are interested in discussing the topic.
So if you perform a minor sin once, then you're screwed unless you are a Christian?
Note: Yes, you said that all sins are equal in God's eyes, but it shouldn't be that way (and humans certainly don't think of all sins being equal, which is why speeding results in a fine, but murder results in life in prison). If we violate one of the seven deadly sins, say Lust, by lusting after our neighbor, even without performing any action against her, then we can't go to heaven, no matter how virtuous the rest of our life is.
Frankly, in my opinion, that sucks. It's evil to damn someone for eternity for such a minor act. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, the 7 deadly sins is an idea with absolutely 0 Biblical backing whatsoever. It's just a fancy bit of Catholic Church tradition.
If you haven't already, you should read at least the first section of C.S. Lewis <u>Mere Christianity.</u> Lewis was in the same predicament, hating the way that God's moral system works.
The realization that he came to, was that the only way that he could say that God was unjustified by his actions is by abritrarily asserting that his own moral system was correct and God's was wrong. That's completely baseless.
That of course assumes that God is perfect, that the christian God is the one and only, that christian literiture interprets God's morality correctly, and that God isn't lying.
But lusting (coveting) after my neighbor (or his wife, if he's male) would still be a sin, right?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The realization that he came to, was that the only way that he could say that God was unjustified by his actions is by abritrarily asserting that his own moral system was correct and God's was wrong. That's completely baseless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the Christian God existed, then I would be wrong, as much as I don't like his moral system. I do see a contradiction there, however. If the Christian God does exist, then he is the ultimate source for good. Why would his moral system be so crappy then? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also, what SkulkBait said.
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Yeah. I wonder how long it'll take for this thread to get locked for being off-topic...I'm surprised it hasn't been locked down yet.
You're assuming that I can just start believing in a God, just like that. If it was a fully concious decision, I probably would still be a Christian. The idea of a loving God is a pretty nice thing to have. However, it isn't, so I'm not, so I'm going to hell. :/
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah. I wonder how long it'll take for this thread to get locked for being off-topic...I'm surprised it hasn't been locked down yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Might as well have some fun while it's around. I say...one more post after this, then lockage.