<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Founding religion? A majority of America's founding fathers and, of course, a majority of the authors and signers of the Declaration of Independence were deist, not Christian. There are notable exceptions, like Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and George Washington, but they are the minority of that select group.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I already knew that thanks to a previous argument with Nem0, and its irrelevant. If the Iraqi's drew up their constitution without reference to Allah, and the secularists were the majority in its construction, who in 200 years time would be silly enough to claim that Islam wasnt the founding religion of the nation? I was under the understanding that the original settlers were a mob of religious refugees. Given that religion was such a big deal in those days, I find it hard to believe that Alex, James and George represented the population accurately. They did a good job of ensuring that the constitution didn't put any draconian "We are a Christian nation, so convert or bugger off" stuff, but thats hardly suprising given their religiously repressed origins.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Starting a war in the Middle East to establish peace is like having sex to remain a virgin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For those of us who suffer from acute political myopia, that analogy is correct. For the rest of us that did history - war has frequently been used to establish peace.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nineteen+Feb 14 2005, 10:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nineteen @ Feb 14 2005, 10:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> this is true, but i feel so many americans really have no idea some of the things there own president has said. I have no problem with whatever religion he practices but the fact that he has basicly said im going to rule this country the way god wants me too, really makes me wonder who's best interests he is looking out for. The last thing we need is more crusades. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not the president's fault if people don't read up on his politics.
As for ruling the country the way God wants him to - that basically means he's going to apply the moral code his religion advocates to his policies. As has been pointed out earlier, a large amount of people seem to like this.
It's not that much different to a president who runs the country the way his ego tells him to, anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am sorry you hate the Old Testament. I wager that hate comes from a mis-understanding of it, combined with a selective knowledge of its contents, and a desire to paint God as the bad guy so as to rectify your own moral choices.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you trying to tell me that it was a good thing that God ordered the slaughters? Explain, and do so without all that "God is perfect so it must have been good or he wouldn't do it" BS. You can't, because it is wrong to order mass slaughters. It was wrong for hitler, why not God? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, I am trying to tell you that you pre-judged the OT - based on your limited knowledge of its contents, and its purpouse; ignoring its context, and a desire to show God as evil so as to rectify your own moral decisions.
For instance, this supposed unwarented "slaughter". You are better than God because you would never do that - yeay... That means you can sleep with your gf, do drugs, be an alcoholic, and not bother to know your maker - all because you are opposed to "slaughter".
So you set up God as a straw man (not understanding the situation completely) and proceed to tear down said straw man. You admit that you havent read it, or even tried to understand it - why? Because you apparently found your own religous leanings without the OT.
A better question to ask would be "is it right to assassinate Hitler?" - Should God smite hitler? If the answer is yes, then God has every right to smite the nations around israel - for the exact same reasons. The only difference is that Hitler managed to act upon his crazed philosophies. Understand, God is the judge of the heart - the difference between killing someone and thinking about it is opportunity. Both are sin, both equally deserve Gods wrath.
Now, I'm not trying to slight you - I am a sinner and deserving of death. That is why Jesus is there. However, Jesus is the same God saving me - as God was saving Israel. They are one and the same. The only difference is that God of OT emphasized Law, Jesus of NT emphasizes Grace.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Feb 14 2005, 07:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Feb 14 2005, 07:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Really offtopic, but @Skulkbait - you do know that it was a common practice to offer human sacrifices in Canaan during the 2nd millenia BC, right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> With some of the people who control today's modern world its a shame we don't have human sacrifice.
<!--QuoteBegin-Marine0I+Feb 13 2005, 09:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine0I @ Feb 13 2005, 09:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's a pity that so many American's are so divorced from their founding religion that they can have so little idea about how Christian's think and work. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wouldn't that make it ok to hate black people because.. hey, the founding fathers were white and thought that black people were like.. weird monkeys, right? I mean we must have so little idea about how the minds of the Ku Klux Klan work, it's a shame. I think we should strive to understand their white supremacist ways.
<theKKK> Hey, woah.. just give our way a chance, yeah?
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Feb 14 2005, 07:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Feb 14 2005, 07:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Really offtopic, but @Skulkbait - you do know that it was a common practice to offer human sacrifices in Canaan during the 2nd millenia BC, right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your point being?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, I am trying to tell you that you pre-judged the OT - based on your limited knowledge of its contents, and its purpouse; ignoring its context, and a desire to show God as evil so as to rectify your own moral decisions.
For instance, this supposed unwarented "slaughter". You are better than God because you would never do that - yeay... That means you can sleep with your gf, do drugs, be an alcoholic, and not bother to know your maker - all because you are opposed to "slaughter". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all, I don't do any of those things. Secondly yes, because I would never order the slaughter of women and children I consider myself to be better then the OT version of God.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So you set up God as a straw man (not understanding the situation completely) and proceed to tear down said straw man. You admit that you havent read it, or even tried to understand it - why? Because you apparently found your own religous leanings without the OT.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe you didn't read my posts. I have read parts of the OT, back before I became an apatheist. I decided that I could never serve a God who would do the things the OT God did. By the way, you haven't yet even presented me with a reason as to how God commanding mass slaughters could be "good".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A better question to ask would be "is it right to assassinate Hitler?" - Should God smite hitler? If the answer is yes, then God has every right to smite the nations around israel - for the exact same reasons. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright, if you're going that route then explain to me why God doesn't smite all evil? Why didn't he smite hitler, but did smite all those people in the OT? Why didn't God just keep his nose out of human affairs like that then as he does now?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, I'm not trying to slight you - I am a sinner and deserving of death. That is why Jesus is there. However, Jesus is the same God saving me - as God was saving Israel. They are one and the same. The only difference is that God of OT emphasized Law, Jesus of NT emphasizes Grace.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Riddle me this: you admit that Jesus and the OT God are different. How is it that your "perfect" God is so inconsistant?
More on topic: Why does bush think that he needs to do God's will? God's a big boy, surely he can do his own flipping will. I mean he did in the OT after all right?
<!--QuoteBegin-Jdub+Feb 13 2005, 01:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jdub @ Feb 13 2005, 01:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was just wondering what everyone thinks about the relationship Bush claims to have with God.
Personally, I think it is a bad thing to have a President that has this much religious zeal. Believing that God is behind your decisions would make you feel like your decisions are infallible. So you wouldn't really think through your actions as well or as thoughtfully as you would if God <i>didn't</i> speak to you.
But, that's just my stupid opinion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You're kidding, right?
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Spacer+Feb 14 2005, 08:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spacer @ Feb 14 2005, 08:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Marine0I+Feb 13 2005, 09:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine0I @ Feb 13 2005, 09:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's a pity that so many American's are so divorced from their founding religion that they can have so little idea about how Christian's think and work. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wouldn't that make it ok to hate black people because.. hey, the founding fathers were white and thought that black people were like.. weird monkeys, right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, most of them wanted to outlaw slavery. Unfortunately, certain States made it very clear that there would be no ratifying the Constitution if slavery was not allowed to exist. The true fault with the founders is that they compromised. Or, as some might say, they appeased the slave States. Then, 70 years later, the appeasement ended.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Feb 14 2005, 07:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Feb 14 2005, 07:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Really offtopic, but @Skulkbait - you do know that it was a common practice to offer human sacrifices in Canaan during the 2nd millenia BC, right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your point being?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, I am trying to tell you that you pre-judged the OT - based on your limited knowledge of its contents, and its purpouse; ignoring its context, and a desire to show God as evil so as to rectify your own moral decisions.
For instance, this supposed unwarented "slaughter". You are better than God because you would never do that - yeay... That means you can sleep with your gf, do drugs, be an alcoholic, and not bother to know your maker - all because you are opposed to "slaughter". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all, I don't do any of those things. Secondly yes, because I would never order the slaughter of women and children I consider myself to be better then the OT version of God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qamorite.html' target='_blank'>This</a> might help you understand things contextually a bit more.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So you set up God as a straw man (not understanding the situation completely) and proceed to tear down said straw man. You admit that you havent read it, or even tried to understand it - why? Because you apparently found your own religous leanings without the OT.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe you didn't read my posts. I have read parts of the OT, back before I became an apatheist. I decided that I could never serve a God who would do the things the OT God did. By the way, you haven't yet even presented me with a reason as to how God commanding mass slaughters could be "good".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See above.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A better question to ask would be "is it right to assassinate Hitler?" - Should God smite hitler? If the answer is yes, then God has every right to smite the nations around israel - for the exact same reasons. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright, if you're going that route then explain to me why God doesn't smite all evil? Why didn't he smite hitler, but did smite all those people in the OT? Why didn't God just keep his nose out of human affairs like that then as he does now?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, first of all, I'd argue that he does not, in fact, refrain from interfering in human affairs. (Evidenced by the fulfilled prophecy in the reformation of the Jewish state in the holy land.)
Also, to what level should God smite evil?
Murder? Rape? Theft? Jaywalking? The fact is, that if God were to smite all evil, (Which, BTW, is promised.) then many people who God knows would have come to repentance given some time would perish. "God is not slow in keeping his promise as some understand slowness." If God were to not tolerate evil at all in the first place, then there would be no free will, and we would be robots. Love is meaningless unless it is given the choice to hate.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->kwikloader Posted on Feb 14 2005, 09:21 PM <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(Jdub @ Feb 13 2005, 01:50 AM) I was just wondering what everyone thinks about the relationship Bush claims to have with God.
Personally, I think it is a bad thing to have a President that has this much religious zeal. Believing that God is behind your decisions would make you feel like your decisions are infallible. So you wouldn't really think through your actions as well or as thoughtfully as you would if God didn't speak to you.
But, that's just my stupid opinion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
killing women and children is kinda sad looking in the short view, but in eternal vision it sorta makes sense. I mean if SkulkBait could get past his narrow views and think more like a divine been would, he'd get a little more perspective and understand whats up
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Feb 15 2005, 12:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 15 2005, 12:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Feb 14 2005, 07:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Feb 14 2005, 07:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Really offtopic, but @Skulkbait - you do know that it was a common practice to offer human sacrifices in Canaan during the 2nd millenia BC, right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your point being?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, I am trying to tell you that you pre-judged the OT - based on your limited knowledge of its contents, and its purpouse; ignoring its context, and a desire to show God as evil so as to rectify your own moral decisions.
For instance, this supposed unwarented "slaughter". You are better than God because you would never do that - yeay... That means you can sleep with your gf, do drugs, be an alcoholic, and not bother to know your maker - all because you are opposed to "slaughter". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all, I don't do any of those things. Secondly yes, because I would never order the slaughter of women and children I consider myself to be better then the OT version of God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qamorite.html' target='_blank'>This</a> might help you understand things contextually a bit more.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really don't feel like reading any long winded religious **** right now. If you don't want to summerize it, then don't bother posting it because it is off topic anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A better question to ask would be "is it right to assassinate Hitler?" - Should God smite hitler? If the answer is yes, then God has every right to smite the nations around israel - for the exact same reasons. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright, if you're going that route then explain to me why God doesn't smite all evil? Why didn't he smite hitler, but did smite all those people in the OT? Why didn't God just keep his nose out of human affairs like that then as he does now?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, first of all, I'd argue that he does not, in fact, refrain from interfering in human affairs. (Evidenced by the fulfilled prophecy in the reformation of the Jewish state in the holy land.)
Also, to what level should God smite evil?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know, God isn't consistent at all about who gets smote and who don't. If I were God I wouldn't smote anybody, but then again I wouldn't have created this miserable lot in the first place.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Murder? Rape? Theft? Jaywalking? The fact is, that if God were to smite all evil, (Which, BTW, is promised.) then many people who God knows would have come to repentance given some time would perish. "God is not slow in keeping his promise as some understand slowness." If God were to not tolerate evil at all in the first place, then there would be no free will, and we would be robots. Love is meaningless unless it is given the choice to hate.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So why did he do it in the OT? Why is he so inconsistent about it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> killing women and children is kinda sad looking in the short view, but in eternal vision it sorta makes sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ....? How so? Besides, are you telling me that wronging the few for the sake of the many is always good? I would argue that that is often not the case at all.
It is my opinion that no "perfect" God should have any need to kill anybody. Besides which, no one has yet answered my question about why God changed his mind about all the smiting and genocide orders and sent Jesus to go all hippy-love-and-peace on the world. Why is this "perfect" deity so inconcsistent?
EDIT: THIS POST COPIED INTO THE OTHER THREAD< POST NO FURTHER RESPONSES HERE
alrighty skulk bait... have you ever died? have you ever been saved? have you ever done anything besides sit around wasting your life doing who knows what... no ya haven't. God seems to have things under control, he gives us traisl for us not him. when you lift weights you get stronger by adding on resistence to your muscles and overcoming it, how can we progess at all without trails and problems? huh tell me that one and I'll give you a dollar. its like a lump of coal... with a lot of pressure and time... BAM ya get a diamond.
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 15 2005, 01:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 15 2005, 01:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> killing women and children is kinda sad looking in the short view, but in eternal vision it sorta makes sense. I mean if SkulkBait could get past his narrow views and think more like a divine been would, he'd get a little more perspective and understand whats up <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Tell you what Avenger. If that was your wife and child I think you'd do more than say "gee...this is kinda sad looking in the short view".
Honestly, you seem to be one of those people here that feel that we humans are just "clay pots" for the big guy upstairs to break when he has a temper tantrum.
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 15 2005, 01:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 15 2005, 01:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->killing women and children is kinda sad looking in the short view, but in eternal vision it sorta makes sense. I mean if SkulkBait could get past his narrow views and think more like a divine been would, he'd get a little more perspective and understand whats up<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wish you could spell like a "divine been". Or at least, like someone who knows how to read and write. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/style_images/TSA_Skin-975/icon2.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
i have some questions for the beleivers. how does god feel about me killing in self defense,or a pre-emtive strike? what if i get in a fight and when i punch the guy and he hits the ground and he cracks his skull on the concrete and dies, was it god or me? There is a crack dealer on my block sellin **** to kids, can i smite him?
I may be wrong, since it's a long time sonce I was a Christian, so take this with a pinch of salt.
Being a Christian means that you have to follow the rules set out by Christ/the bible (depending on the sort of Christianity). These include:
- loving a person, even though he might sin - sinning is bad (duh) - everybody sins (noone is perfect) - judging other people for their sins is bad (jesus spending time with tax collectors instead of Holy People("Does a healthy person need a doctor?")).
They mostly believe that we have free will, IIRC, so we are free to chose evil (i.e. turn away from God). Hell is a place without God.
If all this is true, then God will forgive you if you commit manslaughter, as long as you repent. If you enjoyed it, or felt that the guy had it coming - no forgiveness. You shouldn't hate or hurt other people for their sins, as that is God's decision, not yours; claiming to know God's will <i>exactly</i> is preposperous.
That's how I remember it. Proper Christianity isn't a bad thing, I remember that much. It's not about going to church or ranting to someone how they're going to hell etc. etc., that's just people being jerks.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nineteen+Feb 15 2005, 07:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nineteen @ Feb 15 2005, 07:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i have some questions for the beleivers. how does god feel about me killing in self defense,or a pre-emtive strike? what if i get in a fight and when i punch the guy and he hits the ground and he cracks his skull on the concrete and dies, was it god or me? There is a crack dealer on my block sellin **** to kids, can i smite him? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Strictly legalistically speaking, self-defence is justifiable. However, it is always better to forgive than to use your right of self-defense. And using your rights mean that you also fall under the jurisdiction of OT law, which is not the best place you could be. Revenge, on the other hand, is a different matter. In the case of the crack dealer, you shouldn't smite him (at least not in a physical sense). However, you should to do what you could to prevent him from preying on other people - like calling the cops, helping people try to go to rehab, etc.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Feb 15 2005, 02:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 15 2005, 02:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if you enjoyed it, or felt that the guy had it coming - no forgiveness. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not nessesarily. Even if you enjoyed it and felt he had it coming, if you know that feeling that way is wrong and ask for forgiveness for <i>that</i> then God will grant it. At least thats how I interpret it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nineteen+Feb 15 2005, 07:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nineteen @ Feb 15 2005, 07:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What if i get in a fight and when i punch the guy and he hits the ground and he cracks his skull on the concrete and dies, was it god or me? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ??
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Feb 15 2005, 02:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 15 2005, 02:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> God will forgive you if you commit manslaughter, as long as you repent. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is so untrue. God will never forgive you for taking someone else's life.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cookiebooger+Feb 15 2005, 02:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cookiebooger @ Feb 15 2005, 02:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Feb 15 2005, 02:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 15 2005, 02:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> God will forgive you if you commit manslaughter, as long as you repent. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is so untrue. God will never forgive you for taking someone else's life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong. Romans 8:1 There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Oh by the way, keep in mind, the Apostle Paul oversaw the stoning of Stephen, and persecuted the church of God. He later wrote most of the New Testament, and became one of the most powerful and erudite witnesses for Christ.
His grace is sufficient to cover over all transgressions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not nessesarily. Even if you enjoyed it and felt he had it coming, if you know that feeling that way is wrong and ask for forgiveness for that then God will grant it. At least thats how I interpret it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Becoming a Christian means accepting Christ's death on the cross as substitute for the punishment we should recieve outselves. He willingly went to this, and because of that, asking for that gift once grants total forgiveness. You don't have to confess and ask forgiveness every time, as long as you've first prayed to recieve that gift.
Comments
I already knew that thanks to a previous argument with Nem0, and its irrelevant. If the Iraqi's drew up their constitution without reference to Allah, and the secularists were the majority in its construction, who in 200 years time would be silly enough to claim that Islam wasnt the founding religion of the nation? I was under the understanding that the original settlers were a mob of religious refugees. Given that religion was such a big deal in those days, I find it hard to believe that Alex, James and George represented the population accurately. They did a good job of ensuring that the constitution didn't put any draconian "We are a Christian nation, so convert or bugger off" stuff, but thats hardly suprising given their religiously repressed origins.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Starting a war in the Middle East to establish peace is like having sex to remain a virgin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For those of us who suffer from acute political myopia, that analogy is correct. For the rest of us that did history - war has frequently been used to establish peace.
It's not the president's fault if people don't read up on his politics.
As for ruling the country the way God wants him to - that basically means he's going to apply the moral code his religion advocates to his policies. As has been pointed out earlier, a large amount of people seem to like this.
It's not that much different to a president who runs the country the way his ego tells him to, anyway.
The crusade thing is a bit of a stretch, IMO.
Quoted for truth:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am sorry you hate the Old Testament. I wager that hate comes from a mis-understanding of it, combined with a selective knowledge of its contents, and a desire to paint God as the bad guy so as to rectify your own moral choices.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you trying to tell me that it was a good thing that God ordered the slaughters? Explain, and do so without all that "God is perfect so it must have been good or he wouldn't do it" BS. You can't, because it is wrong to order mass slaughters. It was wrong for hitler, why not God? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I am trying to tell you that you pre-judged the OT - based on your limited knowledge of its contents, and its purpouse; ignoring its context, and a desire to show God as evil so as to rectify your own moral decisions.
For instance, this supposed unwarented "slaughter". You are better than God because you would never do that - yeay... That means you can sleep with your gf, do drugs, be an alcoholic, and not bother to know your maker - all because you are opposed to "slaughter".
So you set up God as a straw man (not understanding the situation completely) and proceed to tear down said straw man. You admit that you havent read it, or even tried to understand it - why? Because you apparently found your own religous leanings without the OT.
A better question to ask would be "is it right to assassinate Hitler?" - Should God smite hitler? If the answer is yes, then God has every right to smite the nations around israel - for the exact same reasons. The only difference is that Hitler managed to act upon his crazed philosophies. Understand, God is the judge of the heart - the difference between killing someone and thinking about it is opportunity. Both are sin, both equally deserve Gods wrath.
Now, I'm not trying to slight you - I am a sinner and deserving of death. That is why Jesus is there. However, Jesus is the same God saving me - as God was saving Israel. They are one and the same. The only difference is that God of OT emphasized Law, Jesus of NT emphasizes Grace.
With some of the people who control today's modern world its a shame we don't have human sacrifice.
Wouldn't that make it ok to hate black people because.. hey, the founding fathers were white and thought that black people were like.. weird monkeys, right? I mean we must have so little idea about how the minds of the Ku Klux Klan work, it's a shame. I think we should strive to understand their white supremacist ways.
<theKKK> Hey, woah.. just give our way a chance, yeah?
Your point being?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, I am trying to tell you that you pre-judged the OT - based on your limited knowledge of its contents, and its purpouse; ignoring its context, and a desire to show God as evil so as to rectify your own moral decisions.
For instance, this supposed unwarented "slaughter". You are better than God because you would never do that - yeay... That means you can sleep with your gf, do drugs, be an alcoholic, and not bother to know your maker - all because you are opposed to "slaughter". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, I don't do any of those things. Secondly yes, because I would never order the slaughter of women and children I consider myself to be better then the OT version of God.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So you set up God as a straw man (not understanding the situation completely) and proceed to tear down said straw man. You admit that you havent read it, or even tried to understand it - why? Because you apparently found your own religous leanings without the OT.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you didn't read my posts. I have read parts of the OT, back before I became an apatheist. I decided that I could never serve a God who would do the things the OT God did. By the way, you haven't yet even presented me with a reason as to how God commanding mass slaughters could be "good".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A better question to ask would be "is it right to assassinate Hitler?" - Should God smite hitler? If the answer is yes, then God has every right to smite the nations around israel - for the exact same reasons. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, if you're going that route then explain to me why God doesn't smite all evil? Why didn't he smite hitler, but did smite all those people in the OT? Why didn't God just keep his nose out of human affairs like that then as he does now?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, I'm not trying to slight you - I am a sinner and deserving of death. That is why Jesus is there. However, Jesus is the same God saving me - as God was saving Israel. They are one and the same. The only difference is that God of OT emphasized Law, Jesus of NT emphasizes Grace.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Riddle me this: you admit that Jesus and the OT God are different. How is it that your "perfect" God is so inconsistant?
More on topic: Why does bush think that he needs to do God's will? God's a big boy, surely he can do his own flipping will. I mean he did in the OT after all right?
Personally, I think it is a bad thing to have a President that has this much religious zeal. Believing that God is behind your decisions would make you feel like your decisions are infallible. So you wouldn't really think through your actions as well or as thoughtfully as you would if God <i>didn't</i> speak to you.
But, that's just my stupid opinion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're kidding, right?
Wouldn't that make it ok to hate black people because.. hey, the founding fathers were white and thought that black people were like.. weird monkeys, right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, most of them wanted to outlaw slavery. Unfortunately, certain States made it very clear that there would be no ratifying the Constitution if slavery was not allowed to exist. The true fault with the founders is that they compromised. Or, as some might say, they appeased the slave States. Then, 70 years later, the appeasement ended.
I doubt most of us here can.
Your point being?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, I am trying to tell you that you pre-judged the OT - based on your limited knowledge of its contents, and its purpouse; ignoring its context, and a desire to show God as evil so as to rectify your own moral decisions.
For instance, this supposed unwarented "slaughter". You are better than God because you would never do that - yeay... That means you can sleep with your gf, do drugs, be an alcoholic, and not bother to know your maker - all because you are opposed to "slaughter". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, I don't do any of those things. Secondly yes, because I would never order the slaughter of women and children I consider myself to be better then the OT version of God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qamorite.html' target='_blank'>This</a> might help you understand things contextually a bit more.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So you set up God as a straw man (not understanding the situation completely) and proceed to tear down said straw man. You admit that you havent read it, or even tried to understand it - why? Because you apparently found your own religous leanings without the OT.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you didn't read my posts. I have read parts of the OT, back before I became an apatheist. I decided that I could never serve a God who would do the things the OT God did. By the way, you haven't yet even presented me with a reason as to how God commanding mass slaughters could be "good".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See above.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A better question to ask would be "is it right to assassinate Hitler?" - Should God smite hitler? If the answer is yes, then God has every right to smite the nations around israel - for the exact same reasons. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, if you're going that route then explain to me why God doesn't smite all evil? Why didn't he smite hitler, but did smite all those people in the OT? Why didn't God just keep his nose out of human affairs like that then as he does now?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, first of all, I'd argue that he does not, in fact, refrain from interfering in human affairs. (Evidenced by the fulfilled prophecy in the reformation of the Jewish state in the holy land.)
Also, to what level should God smite evil?
Murder? Rape? Theft? Jaywalking? The fact is, that if God were to smite all evil, (Which, BTW, is promised.) then many people who God knows would have come to repentance given some time would perish. "God is not slow in keeping his promise as some understand slowness." If God were to not tolerate evil at all in the first place, then there would be no free will, and we would be robots. Love is meaningless unless it is given the choice to hate.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(Jdub @ Feb 13 2005, 01:50 AM)
I was just wondering what everyone thinks about the relationship Bush claims to have with God.
Personally, I think it is a bad thing to have a President that has this much religious zeal. Believing that God is behind your decisions would make you feel like your decisions are infallible. So you wouldn't really think through your actions as well or as thoughtfully as you would if God didn't speak to you.
But, that's just my stupid opinion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're kidding, right?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope.
Your point being?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, I am trying to tell you that you pre-judged the OT - based on your limited knowledge of its contents, and its purpouse; ignoring its context, and a desire to show God as evil so as to rectify your own moral decisions.
For instance, this supposed unwarented "slaughter". You are better than God because you would never do that - yeay... That means you can sleep with your gf, do drugs, be an alcoholic, and not bother to know your maker - all because you are opposed to "slaughter". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, I don't do any of those things. Secondly yes, because I would never order the slaughter of women and children I consider myself to be better then the OT version of God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qamorite.html' target='_blank'>This</a> might help you understand things contextually a bit more.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really don't feel like reading any long winded religious **** right now. If you don't want to summerize it, then don't bother posting it because it is off topic anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A better question to ask would be "is it right to assassinate Hitler?" - Should God smite hitler? If the answer is yes, then God has every right to smite the nations around israel - for the exact same reasons. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, if you're going that route then explain to me why God doesn't smite all evil? Why didn't he smite hitler, but did smite all those people in the OT? Why didn't God just keep his nose out of human affairs like that then as he does now?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, first of all, I'd argue that he does not, in fact, refrain from interfering in human affairs. (Evidenced by the fulfilled prophecy in the reformation of the Jewish state in the holy land.)
Also, to what level should God smite evil?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know, God isn't consistent at all about who gets smote and who don't. If I were God I wouldn't smote anybody, but then again I wouldn't have created this miserable lot in the first place.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Murder? Rape? Theft? Jaywalking? The fact is, that if God were to smite all evil, (Which, BTW, is promised.) then many people who God knows would have come to repentance given some time would perish. "God is not slow in keeping his promise as some understand slowness." If God were to not tolerate evil at all in the first place, then there would be no free will, and we would be robots. Love is meaningless unless it is given the choice to hate.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So why did he do it in the OT? Why is he so inconsistent about it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> killing women and children is kinda sad looking in the short view, but in eternal vision it sorta makes sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
....? How so? Besides, are you telling me that wronging the few for the sake of the many is always good? I would argue that that is often not the case at all.
It is my opinion that no "perfect" God should have any need to kill anybody. Besides which, no one has yet answered my question about why God changed his mind about all the smiting and genocide orders and sent Jesus to go all hippy-love-and-peace on the world. Why is this "perfect" deity so inconcsistent?
EDIT: THIS POST COPIED INTO THE OTHER THREAD< POST NO FURTHER RESPONSES HERE
Tell you what Avenger. If that was your wife and child I think you'd do more than say "gee...this is kinda sad looking in the short view".
Honestly, you seem to be one of those people here that feel that we humans are just "clay pots" for the big guy upstairs to break when he has a temper tantrum.
I wish you could spell like a "divine been".
Or at least, like someone who knows how to read and write. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/style_images/TSA_Skin-975/icon2.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Being a Christian means that you have to follow the rules set out by Christ/the bible (depending on the sort of Christianity). These include:
- loving a person, even though he might sin
- sinning is bad (duh)
- everybody sins (noone is perfect)
- judging other people for their sins is bad (jesus spending time with tax collectors instead of Holy People("Does a healthy person need a doctor?")).
They mostly believe that we have free will, IIRC, so we are free to chose evil (i.e. turn away from God). Hell is a place without God.
If all this is true, then God will forgive you if you commit manslaughter, as long as you repent. If you enjoyed it, or felt that the guy had it coming - no forgiveness. You shouldn't hate or hurt other people for their sins, as that is God's decision, not yours; claiming to know God's will <i>exactly</i> is preposperous.
That's how I remember it. Proper Christianity isn't a bad thing, I remember that much. It's not about going to church or ranting to someone how they're going to hell etc. etc., that's just people being jerks.
Strictly legalistically speaking, self-defence is justifiable. However, it is always better to forgive than to use your right of self-defense. And using your rights mean that you also fall under the jurisdiction of OT law, which is not the best place you could be. Revenge, on the other hand, is a different matter.
In the case of the crack dealer, you shouldn't smite him (at least not in a physical sense). However, you should to do what you could to prevent him from preying on other people - like calling the cops, helping people try to go to rehab, etc.
Not nessesarily. Even if you enjoyed it and felt he had it coming, if you know that feeling that way is wrong and ask for forgiveness for <i>that</i> then God will grant it. At least thats how I interpret it.
??
This is so untrue. God will never forgive you for taking someone else's life.
This is so untrue. God will never forgive you for taking someone else's life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong.
Romans 8:1 There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Oh by the way, keep in mind, the Apostle Paul oversaw the stoning of Stephen, and persecuted the church of God. He later wrote most of the New Testament, and became one of the most powerful and erudite witnesses for Christ.
His grace is sufficient to cover over all transgressions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not nessesarily. Even if you enjoyed it and felt he had it coming, if you know that feeling that way is wrong and ask for forgiveness for that then God will grant it. At least thats how I interpret it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Becoming a Christian means accepting Christ's death on the cross as substitute for the punishment we should recieve outselves. He willingly went to this, and because of that, asking for that gift once grants total forgiveness. You don't have to confess and ask forgiveness every time, as long as you've first prayed to recieve that gift.