<!--QuoteBegin-Marine0I+Feb 13 2005, 09:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine0I @ Feb 13 2005, 09:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's a pity that so many American's are so divorced from their founding religion that they can have so little idea about how Christian's think and work. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Founding religion? A majority of America's founding fathers and, of course, a majority of the authors and signers of the Declaration of Independence were deist, not Christian. There are notable exceptions, like Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and George Washington, but they are the minority of that select group.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bush works in the same way. He wants to do God's will. He believes it is God's will that he spread peace throughout the Middle East...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Starting a war in the Middle East to establish peace is like having sex to remain a virgin.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For your information - GWB has not always been a Christian.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my opinion, he's still not a Christian. A Christian is humble and loves all people. I don't see that in "W".
-Ryan!
“The garb of religion is the best cloak for power.” -- William Hazlitt
I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth. -- Thomas Jefferson, author of the Constitution of the United States of America
Christianity...[has become] the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ. -- Thomas Jefferson
The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion. -- America's Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, signed by President John Adams and ratified unanimously by Congress
"What we really need, after all, is not to defend the Bible but to understand it." -- Millar Burrows
Wow. Those quotes from Thomas Jefferson... I'd like to debate him if he were still alive.
It would be an interesting thing if you would care to back them up. Apparently you're making an argument to authority. Unfortunately, Thomas Jefferson is not an authority in religion, as far as I know. TJ may be a great guy and a founding father, but he can make stuff up just like the rest of us.
*edit* also, how did it turn into an attack on Christianity in the middle of saying that Christianity is not the foundation of the USA? Also, "starting war in the Middle East to establish peace..." your analogy is flawed. History will show who is right.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Feb 13 2005, 10:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Feb 13 2005, 10:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow. Those quotes from Thomas Jefferson... I'd like to debate him if he were still alive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Considering the time period he was in the statements are more or less correct. Obviously many of his comments are less relevant today where people are no longer as fanatically devoted to their religion to say, burn some innocent women to death as witches.
Also he appears to mostly be aiming his comments at the Catholic church, I've heard many similar arguments FROM Christians directly attacking it several times (In fact, I'm almost certain he's having a go at the general Catholic Church with those quotes, I wouldn't be surprised if he was a puritan/protestant).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It would be an interesting thing if you would care to back them up. Apparently you're making an argument to authority.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No he's not, he's pointing out (and supporting) the statement that the founding fathers were NOT all Christian nor was the country founded on Christianity. If it was, then you would have to wonder why Thomas Jefferson seems to be rather bitter towards it (and particularly the Church).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unfortunately, Thomas Jefferson is not an authority in religion, as far as I know.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He is as one of the aforementioned founding fathers, which if you're trying to prove that the founding fathers DIDN'T found the country based on Christianity, would be quite a point don't you think?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->TJ may be a great guy and a founding father, but he can make stuff up just like the rest of us.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not the point of the quotes, which sufficiently disprove the inital assertation that the country was founded on Christianity.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Feb 13 2005, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Feb 13 2005, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think religion explains what science can't. And I don't think that science can explain everything. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Religion can do that because its a collection of beliefs and not facts.
Religion is alot like the tale of Santa Clause, we believe in it as children because not only do we not know better, but because it can explain something otherwise unexplainable. People fear the unknown, and to calm that fear they created religion.
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Feb 13 2005, 10:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Feb 13 2005, 10:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Feb 13 2005, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Feb 13 2005, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think religion explains what science can't. And I don't think that science can explain everything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Religion can do that because its a collection of beliefs and not facts.
Religion is alot like the tale of Santa Clause, we believe in it as children because not only do we not know better, but because it can explain something otherwise unexplainable. People fear the unknown, and to calm that fear they created religion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Carl Marx said that religion was like painkillers for the masses..... I don't believe that... but I dunno, a sociolist like you might , anyways
I think this topic is branching off far past Bush and god into Religion in general...
It really bother's me when political leaders bring their religion up in public speaches. Especially when they claim to be talking to God. I happen to know that God doesn't talk to anybody, despite what crazy notions they might have that coincidence is somehow God's way of telling them what he wants. Thats, frankly, rediculous.
How did Jesus put it? "They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick". So why does God talk to the faithfull and leave sinners like myslef to try and figure it out for themselves? The obvious answer of course is that he doesn't. He already told you how he wants you to live your life, its written in that big book of yours.
Maybe instead of trying to read God's will through coincidence you should read God's will through the actions of Jesus. Far too many christians nowadays are hipocrites, with their "What would Jesus Do?" bumber stickers right next to their pro war bumber sticker. How did Ghandi put it? "You christians are so unlike your christ", and I'm sure he didn't mean it in the "well jesus is perfect and so yada yada yada" either, I'm sure he meant it in the "You don't even flipping try!" kinda way.
But I'm ranting again. The reason I don't like political leaders bringing up their religion in speaches is that I think they should be doing their job for the people and not God. After all, God didn't elect them.
<!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Feb 13 2005, 10:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Feb 13 2005, 10:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Feb 13 2005, 10:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Feb 13 2005, 10:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow. Those quotes from Thomas Jefferson... I'd like to debate him if he were still alive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Considering the time period he was in the statements are more or less correct. Obviously many of his comments are less relevant today where people are no longer as fanatically devoted to their religion to say, burn some innocent women to death as witches.
Also he appears to mostly be aiming his comments at the Catholic church, I've heard many similar arguments FROM Christians directly attacking it several times (In fact, I'm almost certain he's having a go at the general Catholic Church with those quotes, I wouldn't be surprised if he was a puritan/protestant). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As an interesting aside, Jefferson really didn't care for religion at all, at one point actually going through and trying to edit the Gospel of Luke, removing any situations that couldn't have occurred naturally. It's been a while since I read up on it, but I think Jefferson's attempt was to create a sort of Deist Humanism.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Religion can do that because its a collection of beliefs and not facts. Religion is alot like the tale of Santa Clause, we believe in it as children because not only do we not know better, but because it can explain something otherwise unexplainable. People fear the unknown, and to calm that fear they created religion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More accuratly, faith can be called a belief in a single set of claims. Christ certainly believed that he was the Son of God, but that goes way beyond simple opinionated belief and enters into the realm of assertations made by those who are either messianic or senile. I feel the need to draw the distinction because the particular faith in question (though built and compiled in it's particulars through Jewish law [Which, interestingly enough, was also written down and standardized within a lifetime] and contemporary studies) was founded and reached solidarity within a decade, and some would say a few months, beginning with Christ's claims as being the messiah found late in John, his crucifixiton, ressurection, which was then being stated as a fulfillment of God's promise at Peter's speach at the Pentacost festival (Found in Acts 2-3 BTW.)
My point is that we cannot treat Christianity as a religion grown out of Animism and Paganism like many of the world's others, because it was established in one fell swoop by someone claiming to be acting under the influence of God. It wasn't established by men, but by one <i>man</i> instead. Either GWB is completely justified in citing true statements from the mouth of God Himself as vindication for his actions(albiet, possibly, incorrectly or with a large ammount of fault on his part in interpreting the message), or he's a raving loon for drudging up slop from the mouth of a crazy man. There can't be a whole lot of middle ground, and I'm actually glad to see the sharp divide in his popular support, on this issue and on others.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe instead of trying to read God's will through coincidence you should read God's will through the actions of Jesus. Far too many christians nowadays are hipocrites, with their "What would Jesus Do?" bumber stickers right next to their pro war bumber sticker. How did Ghandi put it? "You christians are so unlike your christ", and I'm sure he didn't mean it in the "well jesus is perfect and so yada yada yada" either, I'm sure he meant it in the "You don't even flipping try!" kinda way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I used to have a quote in my sig from Billy Grahm; "The biggest cause of Atheism in this country is Christians. Christians who profess Jesus' name with their lips and go out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. THAT is what an unbelieving world finds so unbelieveable." (Add that one to your quote book, H'Bnayr, it's one of my favorites.)
I find that though the Bible has incredible insight into a healthy lifestyle on a personal scale, it lacks horrendously in giving insight in how to run a nation. The reason, of course, is that the church is never meant to be a political institution. "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." The two entities are entirely seperate, and should remain that way. TJ nailed that one. That's part of the reason that I'm unsettled by GWB's faith in the public spotlight; most can't see the separation between his faith and his administration, because the line is blurry at best.
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 14 2005, 12:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 14 2005, 12:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if you read the book of revelations, you'll see that christ is pro war
god told isreal to carry the ark into cannon and kill everyone there, thats war <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes... first of all, I <b><i><span style='color:red'>HATE</span></i></b> the old testiment. It is what largely turned me off of christianity, I mean, God is sucha flipping **** in it, I don't understand how anybody can percieve the God of the old testiment to love all of humanity. Jesus, by and large, wasn't a ****. Did jesus ever kill anybody ever? Did he so much as strike annother man? No. There was that line about the whip in the temple, but that can be interpreted (and has by several forumites) to mean that he whiped the animals out, not the men.
More to the point: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"You have heard it said, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." "But I say to you, do not resist him who is evil, but whoever slaps you on the right cheek turn to him the other also."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> --Matthew 5:38
Doesn't sound like it came from a war advocate. Oh, theres also this one: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> --Mathew 5:9
A God of war is no God I would ever willingly follow.
<!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Feb 13 2005, 10:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Feb 13 2005, 10:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No he's not, he's pointing out (and supporting) the statement that the founding fathers were NOT all Christian nor was the country founded on Christianity. If it was, then you would have to wonder why Thomas Jefferson seems to be rather bitter towards it (and particularly the Church). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I never proposed nor defended the "US is founded on Christianity" position. The closest I *ever* came was in another thread where I claimed that the founding fathers based the Constitution on what they believed was moral and right. Don't read more into my posts than words warrant.
Wheeee, HBNavr was responding to Marine01. Not you. Thus, his quotes are in context to attempt to refute Marine01, not you. Marine01 stated that Christianity was the founding religion of the US.
*edit* I only addressed TJ in particular, not the other quotes. I don't think there's any basis for a claim that the American constitution was founded on Christianity per se.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->AvengerX Posted on Feb 14 2005, 12:21 AM
if you read the book of revelations, you'll see that christ is pro war
god told isreal to carry the ark into cannon and kill everyone there, thats war <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But...Jesus was a liberal <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
First of all. God is not a God of war. God is at war. Or more specifically, we, along with Satan, are at war with Him.
Jesus: "Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three." (Luke 12:51-52)
He came not to divide us along political, ethnic, class, or gender lines. He came to divide us into pro-God and anti-God camps. All of us.
Secondly. God is a God of peace. There's no way that He would have sent Jesus and the prophets not only to parley, but to give us unconditional forgiveness if it were otherwise.
I don't feel like dragging this out, but if you guys feel it's worthy of more discussion, I'll be happy to reply more in-depth. [/OT]
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Feb 14 2005, 02:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Feb 14 2005, 02:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If god is a god of peace why does he allegedly support bush so much.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No no. The real question is: If God is a God of peace, then why did he order the slaughter of so many, and smite so many, and torture Job for the hell of it, ect?
I feel I should add that, I do not mean to insult or hurt anyone who is religious. I have no problem with someone beliving in a god and believing that there is good in all people, etc. I've got a problem with zealots that do nothing but crusade and infiltrate and harass and swear their every action is not them but the choice of their god. That sickens me.
I echo Snidely's sentiments - As long as Bush doesn't take his father's attitude to those who are smart enough to not believe in god, there's no problem. Bush can practice whatever silly little religion he holds dear.
On a sidenote, I feel that my signature is somewhat apt for this topic.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nineteen+Feb 13 2005, 03:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nineteen @ Feb 13 2005, 03:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> yes thats fine but the fact of the matter is the person running the worlds most powerful country should answer to the people. He should be running the country the way the people want it, not the way he thinks god would want im too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> He does, though. If the people don't want him in office, he'd have got booted out last election. Same goes for his policies.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Feb 14 2005, 03:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Feb 14 2005, 03:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Feb 14 2005, 02:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Feb 14 2005, 02:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If god is a god of peace why does he allegedly support bush so much.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No no. The real question is: If God is a God of peace, then why did he order the slaughter of so many, and smite so many, and torture Job for the hell of it, ect? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all, God did not tourture Job. Rather he allowed Job to suffer at the hands of Satan for a time so that the greater glory and power of God might be shown.
If you are wondering what that greater glory and power might be - did you ever stop to think of all the people who have gotten comfort from the book of Job? It appears his temporary suffering has alleviated a lot of pain worldwide.
As for God ordering slaughter - context is everything. Understand that God is righteous - and all the nations of the world have failed him. Israel was being used as a tool of judgment against these nations - just as later Assyria and Babylon are used as tools of judgment against Israel.
I am sorry you hate the Old Testament. I wager that hate comes from a mis-understanding of it, combined with a selective knowledge of its contents, and a desire to paint God as the bad guy so as to rectify your own moral choices.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Feb 14 2005, 05:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 14 2005, 05:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nineteen+Feb 13 2005, 03:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nineteen @ Feb 13 2005, 03:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> yes thats fine but the fact of the matter is the person running the worlds most powerful country should answer to the people. He should be running the country the way the people want it, not the way he thinks god would want im too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> He does, though. If the people don't want him in office, he'd have got booted out last election. Same goes for his policies. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> this is true, but i feel so many americans really have no idea some of the things there own president has said. I have no problem with whatever religion he practices but the fact that he has basicly said im going to rule this country the way god wants me too, really makes me wonder who's best interests he is looking out for. The last thing we need is more crusades.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Feb 14 2005, 08:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Feb 14 2005, 08:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> First of all, God did not tourture Job. Rather he allowed Job to suffer at the hands of Satan for a time so that the greater glory and power of God might be shown. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So let me get this straight. He allowed Job to suffer at Satan's hands (I'm not certain, ut wasn't there some sort of wager involved as well?) to glorify himself. And this doesn't strike you as wrong in some way?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you are wondering what that greater glory and power might be - did you ever stop to think of all the people who have gotten comfort from the book of Job? It appears his temporary suffering has alleviated a lot of pain worldwide.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> People get comfort from lots of things, the bible is not unique in this respect. For every person who has read the book of Job and found comfort there are millions who were totured and executed because God didn't make it very clear that he doesn't condone that sort of thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for God ordering slaughter - context is everything. Understand that God is righteous - and all the nations of the world have failed him. Israel was being used as a tool of judgment against these nations - just as later Assyria and Babylon are used as tools of judgment against Israel. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So explain this to me: In the old testement, God was a ****. He ordered slaughters and cast judgement and all that jazz. But then his personality suddenly changes and he forgives everybody and doesn't interfere with human affairs. Are these two the same God?
Besides that he did in fact order such slaughters. I find that to be undeniably wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am sorry you hate the Old Testament. I wager that hate comes from a mis-understanding of it, combined with a selective knowledge of its contents, and a desire to paint God as the bad guy so as to rectify your own moral choices.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> God is a bad guy in the old testement. He purposefully causes the suffering of a lotof people, supposedly people he loved. It is obvious that Jesus would never do these things, and yet Jesus is supposed to be the same being?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Besides that he did in fact order such slaughters. I find that to be undeniably wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm tired of arguing with you about this skulkbait. Apparently you don't want to change your views at all, so I'm not going to waste my breath trying to convince you that God is not evil, because whatever happens you've decided that all the "bad" things get attributed to God and all the "good" things get attributed to people who tell God to sod off.
I've told you many times why they were ordered to slaughter the people. And note that they were ordered to kill everyone, so no-one was left alive to suffer in most cases. You don't accept that reasoning, fine. But I have to ask you one thing: have you actually read the old testament? sat down and read it objectively, i mean.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Feb 14 2005, 04:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Feb 14 2005, 04:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Besides that he did in fact order such slaughters. I find that to be undeniably wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm tired of arguing with you about this skulkbait. Apparently you don't want to change your views at all, so I'm not going to waste my breath trying to convince you that God is not evil, because whatever happens you've decided that all the "bad" things get attributed to God and all the "good" things get attributed to people who tell God to sod off.
I've told you many times why they were ordered to slaughter the people. And note that they were ordered to kill everyone, so no-one was left alive to suffer in most cases. You don't accept that reasoning, fine. But I have to ask you one thing: have you actually read the old testament? sat down and read it objectively, i mean. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, long ago I attempted to read the old testament. I didn't get very far because at the time I was trying to discover my faith and it didn't take much reading of the OT to figure out that that certainly wasn't it.
And you're right. I don't accept that line of reasoning, it makes absolutely no sense. Left alieve to suffer through what? The tyrany of the people that GOD ORDERED TO FLIPPING KILL THEM!? And I'm tired of arguing about it with you too. You can't find fault with God's actions because you don't question them. You don't believe that God can do any wrong because he is 'prefect'. I think thats ****.
This is all off-topic of course and it isn't like we haven't danced this dance before anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am sorry you hate the Old Testament. I wager that hate comes from a mis-understanding of it, combined with a selective knowledge of its contents, and a desire to paint God as the bad guy so as to rectify your own moral choices.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Feb 14 2005, 04:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Feb 14 2005, 04:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't normally quote myself, but
Quoted for truth:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am sorry you hate the Old Testament. I wager that hate comes from a mis-understanding of it, combined with a selective knowledge of its contents, and a desire to paint God as the bad guy so as to rectify your own moral choices.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you trying to tell me that it was a good thing that God ordered the slaughters? Explain, and do so without all that "God is perfect so it must have been good or he wouldn't do it" BS. You can't, because it is wrong to order mass slaughters. It was wrong for hitler, why not God?
Well it's simple really...God never flooded the Earth, at least the loving Christian God we are taught to know would never do such a thing.
I find it hard to believe every single person on Earth was evil and deserved to die, it simply isn't possible. So if you believe in that particular story you must be willing to concede that God is directly responsible for the murder of innocent human beings.
However I don't think much of the Old Testament is truth at all, merely stories that reflect the culture at the time.
Comments
Founding religion? A majority of America's founding fathers and, of course, a majority of the authors and signers of the Declaration of Independence were deist, not Christian. There are notable exceptions, like Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and George Washington, but they are the minority of that select group.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bush works in the same way. He wants to do God's will. He believes it is God's will that he spread peace throughout the Middle East...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Starting a war in the Middle East to establish peace is like having sex to remain a virgin.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For your information - GWB has not always been a Christian.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my opinion, he's still not a Christian. A Christian is humble and loves all people. I don't see that in "W".
-Ryan!
“The garb of religion is the best cloak for power.”
-- William Hazlitt
I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.
-- Thomas Jefferson, author of the Constitution of the United States of America
Christianity...[has become] the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.
-- Thomas Jefferson
The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
-- Thomas Jefferson
The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.
-- America's Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, signed by President John Adams and ratified unanimously by Congress
"What we really need, after all, is not to defend the Bible but to understand it."
-- Millar Burrows
It would be an interesting thing if you would care to back them up. Apparently you're making an argument to authority. Unfortunately, Thomas Jefferson is not an authority in religion, as far as I know. TJ may be a great guy and a founding father, but he can make stuff up just like the rest of us.
*edit* also, how did it turn into an attack on Christianity in the middle of saying that Christianity is not the foundation of the USA? Also, "starting war in the Middle East to establish peace..." your analogy is flawed. History will show who is right.
Considering the time period he was in the statements are more or less correct. Obviously many of his comments are less relevant today where people are no longer as fanatically devoted to their religion to say, burn some innocent women to death as witches.
Also he appears to mostly be aiming his comments at the Catholic church, I've heard many similar arguments FROM Christians directly attacking it several times (In fact, I'm almost certain he's having a go at the general Catholic Church with those quotes, I wouldn't be surprised if he was a puritan/protestant).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It would be an interesting thing if you would care to back them up. Apparently you're making an argument to authority.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No he's not, he's pointing out (and supporting) the statement that the founding fathers were NOT all Christian nor was the country founded on Christianity. If it was, then you would have to wonder why Thomas Jefferson seems to be rather bitter towards it (and particularly the Church).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unfortunately, Thomas Jefferson is not an authority in religion, as far as I know.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He is as one of the aforementioned founding fathers, which if you're trying to prove that the founding fathers DIDN'T found the country based on Christianity, would be quite a point don't you think?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->TJ may be a great guy and a founding father, but he can make stuff up just like the rest of us.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not the point of the quotes, which sufficiently disprove the inital assertation that the country was founded on Christianity.
Religion can do that because its a collection of beliefs and not facts.
Religion is alot like the tale of Santa Clause, we believe in it as children because not only do we not know better, but because it can explain something otherwise unexplainable. People fear the unknown, and to calm that fear they created religion.
Religion can do that because its a collection of beliefs and not facts.
Religion is alot like the tale of Santa Clause, we believe in it as children because not only do we not know better, but because it can explain something otherwise unexplainable. People fear the unknown, and to calm that fear they created religion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Carl Marx said that religion was like painkillers for the masses..... I don't believe that... but I dunno, a sociolist like you might , anyways
I think this topic is branching off far past Bush and god into Religion in general...
How did Jesus put it? "They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick". So why does God talk to the faithfull and leave sinners like myslef to try and figure it out for themselves? The obvious answer of course is that he doesn't. He already told you how he wants you to live your life, its written in that big book of yours.
Maybe instead of trying to read God's will through coincidence you should read God's will through the actions of Jesus. Far too many christians nowadays are hipocrites, with their "What would Jesus Do?" bumber stickers right next to their pro war bumber sticker. How did Ghandi put it? "You christians are so unlike your christ", and I'm sure he didn't mean it in the "well jesus is perfect and so yada yada yada" either, I'm sure he meant it in the "You don't even flipping try!" kinda way.
But I'm ranting again. The reason I don't like political leaders bringing up their religion in speaches is that I think they should be doing their job for the people and not God. After all, God didn't elect them.
god told isreal to carry the ark into cannon and kill everyone there, thats war
Considering the time period he was in the statements are more or less correct. Obviously many of his comments are less relevant today where people are no longer as fanatically devoted to their religion to say, burn some innocent women to death as witches.
Also he appears to mostly be aiming his comments at the Catholic church, I've heard many similar arguments FROM Christians directly attacking it several times (In fact, I'm almost certain he's having a go at the general Catholic Church with those quotes, I wouldn't be surprised if he was a puritan/protestant). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As an interesting aside, Jefferson really didn't care for religion at all, at one point actually going through and trying to edit the Gospel of Luke, removing any situations that couldn't have occurred naturally. It's been a while since I read up on it, but I think Jefferson's attempt was to create a sort of Deist Humanism.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Religion can do that because its a collection of beliefs and not facts. Religion is alot like the tale of Santa Clause, we believe in it as children because not only do we not know better, but because it can explain something otherwise unexplainable. People fear the unknown, and to calm that fear they created religion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More accuratly, faith can be called a belief in a single set of claims. Christ certainly believed that he was the Son of God, but that goes way beyond simple opinionated belief and enters into the realm of assertations made by those who are either messianic or senile. I feel the need to draw the distinction because the particular faith in question (though built and compiled in it's particulars through Jewish law [Which, interestingly enough, was also written down and standardized within a lifetime] and contemporary studies) was founded and reached solidarity within a decade, and some would say a few months, beginning with Christ's claims as being the messiah found late in John, his crucifixiton, ressurection, which was then being stated as a fulfillment of God's promise at Peter's speach at the Pentacost festival (Found in Acts 2-3 BTW.)
My point is that we cannot treat Christianity as a religion grown out of Animism and Paganism like many of the world's others, because it was established in one fell swoop by someone claiming to be acting under the influence of God. It wasn't established by men, but by one <i>man</i> instead. Either GWB is completely justified in citing true statements from the mouth of God Himself as vindication for his actions(albiet, possibly, incorrectly or with a large ammount of fault on his part in interpreting the message), or he's a raving loon for drudging up slop from the mouth of a crazy man. There can't be a whole lot of middle ground, and I'm actually glad to see the sharp divide in his popular support, on this issue and on others.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe instead of trying to read God's will through coincidence you should read God's will through the actions of Jesus. Far too many christians nowadays are hipocrites, with their "What would Jesus Do?" bumber stickers right next to their pro war bumber sticker. How did Ghandi put it? "You christians are so unlike your christ", and I'm sure he didn't mean it in the "well jesus is perfect and so yada yada yada" either, I'm sure he meant it in the "You don't even flipping try!" kinda way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I used to have a quote in my sig from Billy Grahm; "The biggest cause of Atheism in this country is Christians. Christians who profess Jesus' name with their lips and go out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. THAT is what an unbelieving world finds so unbelieveable." (Add that one to your quote book, H'Bnayr, it's one of my favorites.)
I find that though the Bible has incredible insight into a healthy lifestyle on a personal scale, it lacks horrendously in giving insight in how to run a nation. The reason, of course, is that the church is never meant to be a political institution. "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." The two entities are entirely seperate, and should remain that way. TJ nailed that one. That's part of the reason that I'm unsettled by GWB's faith in the public spotlight; most can't see the separation between his faith and his administration, because the line is blurry at best.
god told isreal to carry the ark into cannon and kill everyone there, thats war <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes... first of all, I <b><i><span style='color:red'>HATE</span></i></b> the old testiment. It is what largely turned me off of christianity, I mean, God is sucha flipping **** in it, I don't understand how anybody can percieve the God of the old testiment to love all of humanity. Jesus, by and large, wasn't a ****. Did jesus ever kill anybody ever? Did he so much as strike annother man? No. There was that line about the whip in the temple, but that can be interpreted (and has by several forumites) to mean that he whiped the animals out, not the men.
More to the point: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"You have heard it said, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." "But I say to you, do not resist him who is evil, but whoever slaps you on the right cheek turn to him the other also."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> --Matthew 5:38
Doesn't sound like it came from a war advocate. Oh, theres also this one:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> --Mathew 5:9
A God of war is no God I would ever willingly follow.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never proposed nor defended the "US is founded on Christianity" position. The closest I *ever* came was in another thread where I claimed that the founding fathers based the Constitution on what they believed was moral and right. Don't read more into my posts than words warrant.
*edited for less delta-H*
*edit* I only addressed TJ in particular, not the other quotes. I don't think there's any basis for a claim that the American constitution was founded on Christianity per se.
if you read the book of revelations, you'll see that christ is pro war
god told isreal to carry the ark into cannon and kill everyone there, thats war
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But...Jesus was a liberal <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
First of all. God is not a God of war. God is at war. Or more specifically, we, along with Satan, are at war with Him.
Jesus: "Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three." (Luke 12:51-52)
He came not to divide us along political, ethnic, class, or gender lines. He came to divide us into pro-God and anti-God camps. All of us.
Secondly. God is a God of peace. There's no way that He would have sent Jesus and the prophets not only to parley, but to give us unconditional forgiveness if it were otherwise.
I don't feel like dragging this out, but if you guys feel it's worthy of more discussion, I'll be happy to reply more in-depth.
[/OT]
*edit for clarity*
It comes down to, who is wrong, you, or bush.
No no. The real question is: If God is a God of peace, then why did he order the slaughter of so many, and smite so many, and torture Job for the hell of it, ect?
On a sidenote, I feel that my signature is somewhat apt for this topic.
He does, though. If the people don't want him in office, he'd have got booted out last election. Same goes for his policies.
No no. The real question is: If God is a God of peace, then why did he order the slaughter of so many, and smite so many, and torture Job for the hell of it, ect? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, God did not tourture Job. Rather he allowed Job to suffer at the hands of Satan for a time so that the greater glory and power of God might be shown.
If you are wondering what that greater glory and power might be - did you ever stop to think of all the people who have gotten comfort from the book of Job? It appears his temporary suffering has alleviated a lot of pain worldwide.
As for God ordering slaughter - context is everything. Understand that God is righteous - and all the nations of the world have failed him. Israel was being used as a tool of judgment against these nations - just as later Assyria and Babylon are used as tools of judgment against Israel.
I am sorry you hate the Old Testament. I wager that hate comes from a mis-understanding of it, combined with a selective knowledge of its contents, and a desire to paint God as the bad guy so as to rectify your own moral choices.
He does, though. If the people don't want him in office, he'd have got booted out last election. Same goes for his policies. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is true, but i feel so many americans really have no idea some of the things there own president has said. I have no problem with whatever religion he practices but the fact that he has basicly said im going to rule this country the way god wants me too, really makes me wonder who's best interests he is looking out for. The last thing we need is more crusades.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So let me get this straight. He allowed Job to suffer at Satan's hands (I'm not certain, ut wasn't there some sort of wager involved as well?) to glorify himself. And this doesn't strike you as wrong in some way?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
If you are wondering what that greater glory and power might be - did you ever stop to think of all the people who have gotten comfort from the book of Job? It appears his temporary suffering has alleviated a lot of pain worldwide.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People get comfort from lots of things, the bible is not unique in this respect. For every person who has read the book of Job and found comfort there are millions who were totured and executed because God didn't make it very clear that he doesn't condone that sort of thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for God ordering slaughter - context is everything. Understand that God is righteous - and all the nations of the world have failed him. Israel was being used as a tool of judgment against these nations - just as later Assyria and Babylon are used as tools of judgment against Israel. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So explain this to me: In the old testement, God was a ****. He ordered slaughters and cast judgement and all that jazz. But then his personality suddenly changes and he forgives everybody and doesn't interfere with human affairs. Are these two the same God?
Besides that he did in fact order such slaughters. I find that to be undeniably wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am sorry you hate the Old Testament. I wager that hate comes from a mis-understanding of it, combined with a selective knowledge of its contents, and a desire to paint God as the bad guy so as to rectify your own moral choices.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God is a bad guy in the old testement. He purposefully causes the suffering of a lotof people, supposedly people he loved. It is obvious that Jesus would never do these things, and yet Jesus is supposed to be the same being?
Besides that he did in fact order such slaughters. I find that to be undeniably wrong.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm tired of arguing with you about this skulkbait. Apparently you don't want to change your views at all, so I'm not going to waste my breath trying to convince you that God is not evil, because whatever happens you've decided that all the "bad" things get attributed to God and all the "good" things get attributed to people who tell God to sod off.
I've told you many times why they were ordered to slaughter the people. And note that they were ordered to kill everyone, so no-one was left alive to suffer in most cases. You don't accept that reasoning, fine. But I have to ask you one thing: have you actually read the old testament? sat down and read it objectively, i mean.
Besides that he did in fact order such slaughters. I find that to be undeniably wrong.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm tired of arguing with you about this skulkbait. Apparently you don't want to change your views at all, so I'm not going to waste my breath trying to convince you that God is not evil, because whatever happens you've decided that all the "bad" things get attributed to God and all the "good" things get attributed to people who tell God to sod off.
I've told you many times why they were ordered to slaughter the people. And note that they were ordered to kill everyone, so no-one was left alive to suffer in most cases. You don't accept that reasoning, fine. But I have to ask you one thing: have you actually read the old testament? sat down and read it objectively, i mean. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, long ago I attempted to read the old testament. I didn't get very far because at the time I was trying to discover my faith and it didn't take much reading of the OT to figure out that that certainly wasn't it.
And you're right. I don't accept that line of reasoning, it makes absolutely no sense. Left alieve to suffer through what? The tyrany of the people that GOD ORDERED TO FLIPPING KILL THEM!? And I'm tired of arguing about it with you too. You can't find fault with God's actions because you don't question them. You don't believe that God can do any wrong because he is 'prefect'. I think thats ****.
This is all off-topic of course and it isn't like we haven't danced this dance before anyway.
Quoted for truth:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am sorry you hate the Old Testament. I wager that hate comes from a mis-understanding of it, combined with a selective knowledge of its contents, and a desire to paint God as the bad guy so as to rectify your own moral choices.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoted for truth:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am sorry you hate the Old Testament. I wager that hate comes from a mis-understanding of it, combined with a selective knowledge of its contents, and a desire to paint God as the bad guy so as to rectify your own moral choices.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you trying to tell me that it was a good thing that God ordered the slaughters? Explain, and do so without all that "God is perfect so it must have been good or he wouldn't do it" BS. You can't, because it is wrong to order mass slaughters. It was wrong for hitler, why not God?
I find it hard to believe every single person on Earth was evil and deserved to die, it simply isn't possible. So if you believe in that particular story you must be willing to concede that God is directly responsible for the murder of innocent human beings.
However I don't think much of the Old Testament is truth at all, merely stories that reflect the culture at the time.