A Shotgun Study

DeadlyFreeze · November 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">breaking it down</div> I did this study because the lack of use of the shotgun in-game, for the amount of servers I play on I see the shotgun used about once or twice during a game, which is understand able do to the overall poor quality of the gun... I hope this opens some eyes on the NS team and changes the weapon a bit.

First off the the shotty spray, probably what makes this gun so worthless. Its great if your point blank into an enemy, but fighting a target that has long range abilities makes this gun about as useful as your knife.

(Note to "steps", a step is one short keystroke on the back key held for about 1 sec)

Spray at point blank:
<img src='http://home.attbi.com/~deadlyfreeze/b1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

Spray at 5 steps:
<img src='http://home.attbi.com/~deadlyfreeze/b2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

Spray at 10 steps:
<img src='http://home.attbi.com/~deadlyfreeze/b3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

As you can see by 5 steps the spray is hitting nowhere near the center of the cross hair, at 10 its worse..

Cost: Shotgun cost 20 resources point, that’s 3 less then the GL and 7 less then the HMG. You would think for such a high cost it would be a better gun.. but im sure most ppl would stay with their LMG and pistol then a shotty.

Reload/Draw Time: The reload time is decent enough about 3 sec's to load 1 shell into the gun and your immediately able to fire.. to load the max amount it takes about 9 sec's. Drawing the gun is a different story, about 4+ sec's to be able to draw and fire compared to the 1 sec of a LMG, makes the shotty vary sluggish.

Capacity: with a clip size of 10 and a max of 50, the gun carry’s 60 rounds which is more then enough to get you around the map and back.

Fighting: As said above the gun is worth less at mid/long range, so its most likely you will only want to fight with skulks or gorg, anything else (onos/fade/lerks/offense towers) will most likely get you killed

Overall the gun packs allot of power, but when you use that power at any distance it works as well as a knife... until the shotty gets change I’m sure it will see allot of shelf life and that’s a shame. With the slim pickings of guns it sucks to see one never used.

Nemesis_Zero · November 2002

I have seen shotties seldom used in pubmatches (although their numbers seem to increase there, too), but pretty often when playing with more experienced players (check the EC - TAU demo for some very nice shotgun kills).

People, realize that a single man with shotgun is indeed mush, that a shotgunner with a LMG marine to cover him, however, is absolutely deadly:
The shotgun kills everything nearby, the LMG compensates for its (intended) lousy long range qualities.

For further studies, I suggest you try and play against [FoR]Storm to see how 'useless' the shotty is in her hands.

Bob_the_Alien · November 2002

LOL

you DO know that those bullet holes are simply randomly generated client side effects right?

its a hitscan weapon, your not firing actually projectiles, think of it more as a triangle from the tip of your shotty to the wall.

By the way, the shotty is the most effective early gun, insta skulk kill and before there second hive thats the only reall attack class they have, not to mention its extremely effective at dealing damage to fades and onos.

WaffleSpoon · November 2002

I've seen people use it massivly. Fek'Necro at Hukka server used it extremly much and killed about anything that moved.

The shotty, the way I see it, is to be used in the beginning in the game , until you've gotten more upgraded weapons.

However, most commanders throw one or two out, if even that, which I believe is the reason for its limited use.

But I agree to some extent, that the spread could be more focused for short to average range, but moronicly useless at long range (IMHO). Sort of like the spread of the LMG.

The shotty aint useless, its überkewl and looks sharp, does heavy damage to smaller critters and forefill its purpose perfectly, IMO.

Long live the shotteh <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Knuke · November 2002

Bob the alien so smart! <3 <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> !!

QuietMischief1 · November 2002

ahahaa
....

rofl

....

ROFL

...

Shotgun > <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'>

Just give one person who can shoot decent a shotgun and he is a walking army for first 5-10 minutes, give him back up, he is 2 armies

The only reason the Shotgun is any worse then the HMG is due to the fact it doesn't hold enough ammo to keep up with the HMG, since it does only SLIGHTLY less damage for a full clip HMG as compared to Shotgun

Shotgun Kill > Pistol Kill, why? because, the skulk jumps, goes for the face, ~BLAM~, dead Skulk, and the responce "omg **obscenity** **obscenity** you suck **obscenity** omg so ghey that is bs"

FoxFlame · November 2002

I agree completely. The shotgun is a very underused gun. I've been on so many servers where I request a shotgun early on and the Comm proclaims, in his great newbism, that the weapon is worthless. Perhaps in his hands it is, but I can effectively stop the early rushing skulk with a single accurate shotgun blast. The shotgun fires 16 pellets per shot, at 10 damage per pellet. That's a single shot. The LMG does 10 damage per bullet, with 50 rounds. We all know how long it takes to unload an entire LMG clip. So let's compare:

Max damage from one shot from the LMG == 10
Max damage from one shot from the Shotty = 160

I have yet to understand why more people do not use this weapon. Perhaps it's simply because they can't aim.

FYI: Jetpack+shotgun = Godly (Dodge acid rockets and hammer fades with heavy damage for each round fired, hover above onos while blasting them with buckshot and shoot down lerks like you're hunting geese)

I won't build much more than the shotty as the command, and that's only for people who can aim. I tend to upgrade weapons and jetpacks before spending money giving HMGs to newbs who are just going to rush out and die anyway. I'd rather invest those resources into our base than a gun that's going to be laying on the ground in a few seconds.

Maybe if they made the shotgun cheaper it would be used more frequently. It's just cost prohibative for anyone but those with elite aiming abilities. If it cost less, I'm sure more people would learn to use it. On the other hand, jetpacks are only 9 resources and it's been my experiance that half the NS player population haven't even tried using jetpacks yet.

N00b: "Gimme HA!"
Me: "Currently researching jetpacks"
N00b: "OMG! Jetpacks suck! Gimme HA!"
Me: "I'm not spending 50 resources to research an item that costs 25 each just so I can give it to some newb who's going to die regardless. Jetpacks cost 25 to research and 9 to build, you can have one of those"
N00b: "J00 suck! Gimme HA! Gimme Comm!"
Somedude: "Are jetpacks really any good?"
*Moments later*
Somedude: "Hey, these jetpacks are pretty spiffy, I hadn't tried them before"
N00b: "OMG! Jetpacks kickass! I'm all fast and junk"

*rolls eyes*

--Fox

evoLvingeviL · November 2002

Bob, are you sure that the shotty is a triangular hitscan and not eight [edit]foxflame says its 16[/edit] linear hitscans? It <i>would</i> be more realistic to hitscan like eight pellets instead of a single algorithmic spray. I suppose, however, the bullet holes would still have no bearing on the actual hits, as the algorithm/hitscan/damage rnd would probably be calculated server-side.

DeadlyFreeze · November 2002

Im sure you can formulate any number of starts for a shotgun with experienced players, but more then often you will find your self alone, and with a shotgun your chances of surviving are worse then what you would with your default weapon...

FoxFlame · November 2002

I always read up on a game before I start playing. (I don't like being a newb. I played against myself over my home lan before playing in public <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'> )
<b>According to the Frontiersman manual:</b>

Serieux (shotgun)

Use: Big damage, short range. Cone of fire helps take down fast opponents.

Data: The TSA "Serieux" model shotgun shoots a cone of accelerated metal fragments. Up close, it has proven very effective against the Kharaa. The Serieux was designed by French covert ops for insurgency missions as a powerful, easy to use and manufacture weapon for rebel and guerrilla groups. Its relatively basic design makes it a cost-effective upgrade early on in an engagement.

Damage
16 per fragment. 10 fragments per shot.

Clip
10

I had it backwards. 10 pellets, but they do 16 damage per shot. 160 damage max. I don't find it very "cost-effective" though if it's not much cheaper than the HMG.

I find it bizzare that the LMG does less per hit than the pistol (LMG does 10 per hit, pistol does 20!). Maybe make the pistol do 5, or 10, and upgrade the LMG a bit, to 12 or 15, and require a resource cost to "beam" in new marines. *shrugs* Just some ideas. Pistols being stronger than LMGs don't make sense to me is all.

Deadlyfreeze: If you find yourself alone as a Marine, something is very wrong. Marines should never be alone(I'd like to see that new bot script in to make marine bots automatically follow other marine bots instead of wandering by themselves). If I ever was though, I'd rather have a shotgun than an LMG.

--Fox

DeadlyFreeze · November 2002

Of course you don’t want to be alone as a marine, you don’t want to be alone as a Kharaa.. its a team game but that’s not my point. You will find your self in a situation where you are alone, and if by chance you have a shotgun your chances of making it back to base is slim... realistically any enemy with any sort of a long range attack makes the shotgun null, sure it might pack a punch if every round hits your opponent. I don’t think you understand that I like the shotgun, but do to its lack of accuracy and high cost makes it the less dropped gun in the game, the only way I will be able to get it in my hands is if I jump in com and that sucks.

RotA_Plague · November 2002

The pistol is stronger for evening issues, it fires no where near the rate of the LMG and in many encounters with skulks, gorges, lerks, ect. you will resort to the pistol often. The pistol is much more useful then most people give it, it has very good accuracy, damage, good enough firing rate, but a slowish reload for its ammount of ammo. The shotgun is something I fear when I am a skulk, one hit and your down.. The HMG takes a few shots before your down for the count. In most hallways I have found that the shotgun will stop most creatures right away... Frankly deeper ingame when your fighting Fades the trick is get the surprise on him and pump a few shells in(and if you use teamwork, like you should, he will fall first). As commander during a quiet time I tend to drop myself a suit of HA and a shotgun. I also tend to pop out and unload a few shells into the attackers of my base.

Necro · November 2002

its a SHOTGUN! it's NOT supposed 2 be accurate from long range

coil · November 2002

Shotgun is without a doubt the perfect commander weapon for last-ditch defenses. It's also deadly in the hands of a marine who knows how to use it (like [FoR]Storm or Humbaba). I, personally, don't know how to use one well - I don't have the twitch reflexes. But the fact remains that a direct hit WILL kill a skulk or lerk, EVEN IF THEY HAVE CARAPACE LEVEL 3!!! (I think.) That's power.

DeadlyFreeze · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>its a SHOTGUN! it's NOT supposed 2 be accurate from long range </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Obviously you have never fired a shotgun before <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'>

Wheezer · November 2002

hehe, there is always a difference between games and real life <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

In games and movies the stereotypes are born, which the audience then believes is like the real thing

Nemesis_Zero · November 2002

As we are more and more wandering in the discussion about how to use the shotgun best, I'm moving this topic to Frontiersmen strategies.

Necro · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DeadlyFreeze @ Nov 16 2002, 04:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>its a SHOTGUN! it's NOT supposed 2 be accurate from long range </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Obviously you have never fired a shotgun before <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
true, but the shotgun is meant for close quarters

Longtooth · November 2002

I use the shotgun every game. It is my weapon of choice, that spread test dosen't seem realistic though, when I use it I can get all 10 pelets to hit a Fade at more than 10 steps. And on another note, it is great for buildings, 160 a shot, 190 with max upgrades, I call that damage, it can take down offensives towers in like 5 or so shots.

Canadianmonk3y · November 2002

Spread is far too big to be useful on anything but skulks.
And in early game, marines without HA die too fast to skulks for it to be a sound investment.
20 RUs? For a marine who will certainly die in ~2 minutes?
Wasted money.
Killing aliens is not really a good strategy IMO.
What is better?
Killing skulks on the way to your base from theirs?
or
Taking their hives?

Aliens spawn. Fast.
You kill one of them, it is -0 enemy resources.
They kill a marine with a shotgun -21 resources.
Why give out shotguns when they do not even give such a great benefit of killing a few skulks, when LMGs work fine?

That being said, shotgun is only useful late-game.
HMG or shotgun? Not a contest.

SpaceMarinesGieger · November 2002

Id take that Shotgun over an HMG any day. That with a jetpack and Im goign to last alot longer against anything than a HA/HMG soldier.

Ive been accused of aimbotting so many times when using the shotgun/jetpack combo its not even funny. I litteraly flew around the alien hive location for 10 minute attacking the hive and the aliens. Needless to say they were extremly **obscenity** that iw as able to kill them long range with that shotgun.

Mindmeldme · November 2002

As is I find about 1 in 10 of my marines asks for a shotgun, if they want one I am more then happy to give it to them if we have the RP's. My only gripe with it is cost. i know that it's about the best and only gun you can get without upgrading your armory, it does mass damage up close...but it costs 20 rp's and unless it's in the hands of a skilled player it's kind of a waste most of the time. I can't say to lower the cost to much for balancing issues but...I would think a cost of only...15...or maybe 17 would be a tad more favorable. It really is a point blank weapon...which is fine, and is outstanding if used by an experinced player working with a number of teammates or in cunjuction with a jet pack. I've sent out a number of marines with that combination...man is it something to watch.

SpaceMarinesGieger · November 2002

Aint that the truth mindmeld. Dont forget to give that group welders too. That way they can get their armor up to 100 or so and take those hives down without much trouble.

Mindmeldme · November 2002

Yea...I do forget occasionally in games when i am not thinking about it but...at times when i send out a squad in full armor...half of them have wielders. usually someone will ask for one so...then it will remind me. I need a little cheat sheet next to my monite of group combos for weapons and gear...just so I can remember when I am going nuts in a game doing 10 things at once. At that stage it's easy to forget that little thing that your men need.

FlatlineUTD · November 2002

It's true that marines shouldn't be venturing off on their own, as they will always die. But I've seen guys (myself included - when the Commander orders me to attack alone) take 5 Skulks down with them.

I was playing in a game yesterday, I had a good commander, but no one else was doing anything to help the team. So basically, the commander focused the majority of his attention on me. Equipped with HA and a shottie, he ordered me to secure the area around a Hive. I couldn't have done this without his help of constantly dropping ammo and health, but I managed to take out 3 Fades and 7 Skulks, set up a forward base, and wreck havok on their Hive before I died.

Morale of the story: shotties are utterly godly, and most likely the most cost-effective weapons in the game.

Inexorable · November 2002

Something else that should be noted is that the shotgun is a perfect canidate for "Russian Provisioning". Give one shotgun to the group, and have the other marines pick it up if that marine dies. The shotgun might go through several hands during the course of the game, but you should only have to buy one or two of them if you do it right.

b00ted · November 2002

Yeah but your firing at 500 pound aliens not civialians, you darn terrorists!

Anyways, the shotgun is very very very good (in the right hands, including mine), simply use a handgun and shotgun, go out with full ammo and a team, and you will become a very strong force to reckon with.

Use the handgun while the alien is at distance, he will be forced to come at you, and then you whip out the shotgun and paint a silleioute (however you spell that) of him on the wall with blood.

Now this does take timing of course...but cmon...it aint that hard, and its super effective just before they are working on that second hive, then follow the shottie up with seige and your human team is killer.

domesticxdispute · November 2002

I really do think it would be great if the shotgun's cost was lowered, maybe to 17?
Not everyone can use a shotgun. Most newbies can't use a shotgun for crap. Experienced players + shotun = ownage. I've played lots of other games, and I consider my aim to be pretty good, but I still kinda suck with the shotty <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'>

Shrike3O · November 2002

You know when it also helps? When your latency (like mine often is) goes up over 500. Everything gets awfully jerky, with objects blinking about quite often, and the primary method of engaging something with an automatic is to move to the target and track as it travels. Due to the blinking, the target usually ends up somewhere else just as i'm starting in on a burst.

Gimme a shotgun, and all that damage is applied at the same time. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Longtooth · November 2002

Shotgun+Jet pack=Death Angel, screw all you heavy armor wearing n00bies!
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Dunsby · November 2002

I agree, i usually use this since you can fly away from skulks, onos's and gorges. Sometimes fades and lerks are able to get you but this is rare.

A Shotgun Study

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