<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Pistols being stronger than LMGs don't make sense to me is all.
Shotguns are not to be used by any n00b that cannot aim. I am relatively good with the shotgun, though some times either lag or the spread **obscenity** me over, because at least once a skulk as running around me at point blank, I was jumping over it and several times I fired (at POINT BLANK) with my crosshair straight over it, and yet it did not die. I eventually had to reload, and thus died...I don't think I even landed a single fragment on it, I didn't see any blood...But when the shotgun is working like it should skulks don't stand a chance. Ever have a skulk leap at you, only to have it's head pumped full of all 10 fragments at point blank? It's very satisfying to see the gibs flying <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--DeadlyFreeze+Nov 16 2002, 05:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DeadlyFreeze @ Nov 16 2002, 05:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cost: Shotgun cost 20 resources point, that’s 3 less then the GL and 7 less then the HMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, its 13 less then a Grenade Launcher, and 5 Less then an HMG. You also need to figure in the 35 RP's for the availibilty for the HMG, and the extra 50 more for the Grenade Launcher availibility. The shotgun is one of the best guns in the game, and you should be glad its so cheap and easily accessible.
<!--QuoteBegin--Necro-+Nov 16 2002, 08:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necro- @ Nov 16 2002, 08:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->its a SHOTGUN! it's NOT supposed 2 be accurate from long range<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> but it is supposed to be fairly accurate still at medium range. as it is, due to the spread about half the pellets will miss a def chamber at just a few meters distance. that's to much spread. and nobody is asking for a shotgun with no spread, just less.
I think the last time Iused it with showdamage on it was a 170 damage total weapon. I could be wrong, but I believe it was that, rather than 160. As for 'cone' fire, it was my understanding that hitscan weapons basically generated rays pointing in various directions, often with some offset angle from center, and then the rays were tested for hits. So it would be more accurate to think of the shotgun as spitting out however-many little pellets at the same instant in straight lines originating from your gun emitter, and checking where the random dots of destruction land. It's not an even distribution, but IS a random (within a degree) distribution.
And yes, the client site 'hit holes' do not accurately reflect the actual strikes.
After reading these posts I decide to try the shotgun out and I have fallen in love! I refuse to pick up HMGs anymore.
At long range neither of them will ever hit anything, at medium range the HMG shines, and at short range the SG shines. Put on a jetpack, fly on top of a hive, and go hard! It'll die faster than your best-man's wedding speech.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Small machine guns aren't supposed to have single, strong rounds. What they lack in power, they make up in rate of fire.
A Colt 45 will knock you on your arse. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I can say is... LOL! I nominate Shrike to give some speech... after all he's from the Firearms forum. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I sometimes get the impression that the shotgun is much more accurate than the bullet hit decals show. You can often kill Fades from quite a distance away, where you wouldn't think you'd be able to hit them. The bullet hit effects make the shotty's spread seem like a friggin' sawed-off, but it can't be that big or the shotty wouldnt be so good.
Give me a Shotgun over a HMG any day. The HMG's sustained damage output is better, but it doesn't get instakills; the shotty does. A hurt Fade who gets shot a few times by HMG has time to Blink away; a single shotty blast will kill him instantly, no time to run or hide.
Man shotguns are wonderful. I'm one of those who gets an HMG dropped on him, and he tosses it to someone else. I will take a SG over any other marine weapon, thank you.
And later in the game, throw me a jetpack, and it's whomping time.
I have taken many fades out with the shotgun. Oh how they underestimate it's power. It's faster than using an HMG .. try it.
However, if you lower the cost of the SG any more, then there will be loads of them around. And those poor skulks will just have to hide it out until Hive Two comes up. *shudder*
(I do so love it when a commander drops an hmg at my feet and I tell him SHOTGUN and he's totally stunned)
Coming back from a marine win last night I did just that and after I was all loaded up I chased a fade out of our base at Hera.
And got an acid rock in the face.
Spawning back immediately I was now confronted with two fades chipping away at our turrets near the Hall of Dust/Doom. Remebering the golden rules of marine combat I threw them out the window and death charged down the hallway unloading completely into the fade on the left. Failing to kill him in one clip I had the sudden feeling that I wasn't going to have the time I had envisioned to reload. Taking out the pistol quickly I proceeded to DROP the fade and run for my silly **obscenity** back up the ramp as the other fade recovered from the bizare incident and began to swipe at me.
As I ran suddenly my pistol went down.... and I was holding my loving shotty again! Suddenly feeling a little braver I turned and shotguned the fade in the face.
And he swiped me BACK ... in the FACE.
It was on now.
I leveled the shotgun to be more effective (aka: center mass to get more pellets in) and began to pump out bullets as me and the fade danced a jig that might never be danced again.
The next person to get their hit in was going to determine this battle. If I couldn't nail this guy the other alien was going to come back for retribution and they'd continue to hammer the base relentlessly and we were going to be in some serious troubl-
And then I shot him a third time and he died.
Rather glad that I was still alive I lovingly filled up my poor little empty shotgun. And asked my commander for some help seeing as how I only had 8 health left.
For the next half hour I was the bane of skulks, gorges AND fades (even nipping an onos or two in the **obscenity** as they briefly got their third hive.)
There's just something about a weapon that when you level it at something you can expect instant death for one of two sides. Kind of like portable russian roulette.
Anyway, that's my take on shotguns. Commanders: give them out more often, find a shotgunner and make him part of your squad.
<!--QuoteBegin--coil+Nov 16 2002, 01:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Nov 16 2002, 01:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Shotgun is without a doubt the perfect commander weapon for last-ditch defenses. It's also deadly in the hands of a marine who knows how to use it (like [FoR]Storm or Humbaba). I, personally, don't know how to use one well - I don't have the twitch reflexes. But the fact remains that a direct hit WILL kill a skulk or lerk, EVEN IF THEY HAVE CARAPACE LEVEL 3!!! (I think.) That's power.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree but I am also not very skilled with a shotgun unless I'm with a Jetpack because I get screwed if a skulk starts running circles around me. The reason I don't drop shotguns when I'm a commander is that it ain't really cost effective. Most marines ask me for HMG instead of shotty like 80% in most games. Plus the HMG is only 5 res more than the shotty. I also did notice that the shotgun spread was a little akward whenever I used it.
Ok but the cost of the shotgun really needs to be addressed. Lowering it's cost is by far one of the most feasible future addition, but there is still some opposition to it, and with good reason.
In good hands it can pwn, pwn just as good or better then the HMG. Most people don't have good hands, many claners don't even have these "good hands". (or so I assume)
Is a large percentage of players less effective at using it compared to the LMG?(not use it awesome, just kill more then the LMG) If so, then it adds to the the "It won't hurt to lower the cost" camp.
IMO, a squad of shottie pros(a single squad being uncommon i'd assume) in a clan game is exagerated. Sure they'd be a force to be reckoned with, but I have my doubts about them constantly winning the game early with this. This is one "keep it costly" argument I've heard.
The best solution would be to make it at a cost that is too expensive to make it an LMG replacement, yet cheap enough to give players and commanders incentive to use it. What would this cost be? 16-18 points. 18 would be great for guranteing balance and keeping both camps happy, 16 would be great for giving it a more pronounced cost advantage over the HMG.
I use the shottie if I can for one reason... FUN! It's one of the most awesome shotguns I've seen in a computer game. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Shotgun at 18 is still way too much.... let's see here....
Why would I give marines shotguns when I can setup a TF at a resource point, secure it with triangle position? It's much better to trust because turrets always are at 100 % efficiency. Marines sometimes, will be noobies and be stupid and won't know how to use the shotgun.
18 is STILL alot of resources..... that's just 2 less then right now, and it's effectiveness is STILL not as good as most people think.
For a shotgun to be EXTEREMLY effective, you must have a jetpack or heavy armor. Without it, your still fade meat.
Shotgun users will still have problem against lerks + fades when aliens work together.... Umbera, have fades sit in the umbera, and let them acid rockets fly....
Classicly, the shotgun is used in cqb, but the freaking problem is that a skulk is so fast that, they'll circle you, use the walls around you, and be so lightning quick you'll never hit them unless you see them come from a mile away.
You have a much better chance of killing an Onos with a HMG + HA, then a Shotgun + HA. Why? Onos charges, you let loose HMG, and you continually jump to avoid him, and 11 bullets per sec, with about each bullet doing 20 damage point blank will bring a freaking Onos down faster then the shotgun. You can shoot about 2 shotgun blasts for about every 1.7 seconds. In those 1.7 seconds, I can hit an Onos for about over 400 damage already......
In cost effectiveness, the HMG is STILL better then the Shotgun...
IMO the Shotgun ROF and Recoil should be lowerd, then that will make it a whole heck load better. But keep it at 20 resource to balance it out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->FYI: Jetpack+shotgun = Godly (Dodge acid rockets and hammer fades with heavy damage for each round fired, hover above onos while blasting them with buckshot and shoot down lerks like you're hunting geese) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm with Flamefox on this one. Then again, a jetpack on a skilled marine with any weapon kind of transforms them into a new class all by itself.
For doing damage to enemies, the shotgun is a king. For structures, on the other hand, grenades and the welder have the claim to royalty. There is nothing, nothing I tell you, like flying on top of a hive and getting out the ol' welder. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--FoxFlame+Nov 16 2002, 07:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FoxFlame @ Nov 16 2002, 07:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it bizzare that the LMG does less per hit than the pistol (LMG does 10 per hit, pistol does 20!). Maybe make the pistol do 5, or 10, and upgrade the LMG a bit, to 12 or 15, and require a resource cost to "beam" in new marines. *shrugs* Just some ideas. Pistols being stronger than LMGs don't make sense to me is all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would see how you find that bizzare but it makes common sense. If you were a gun and you fired 50 bullets with a high rate of fire...wouldn't it pack less of a punch? And how about a gun that fired 10 bullets with a slow firing rate have that extra punch? I think that would make perfect sense...and so if the LMG had the same caliber as the pistol...I think nobody who like to use the LMG because it'll be inaccurate like balls. But the Kharaa might enjoy it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for gettin back on the shotgun topic, I can see how this gun out of a small arsenal of 4 primary weapons can tick so many players off. The price is kinda steep but to my opinion, it is a great weapon. The LMG I would say, a great weapon over-all. Offensively, the HMG is the best weapon of choice. Defensively, the GL for clearing out the Kharaa in them annoying vents overlooking your most resent exspansion or main base such as ns_bast. The SG lacks power and accuracy as distance grows but I have pis5ed off countless players by blasting their freshly upgraded alien form into smitherines. If you guys played CS (which most definitely have), the pump in that game is dangerous and a well-known weapon for mass destruction with i think 7-8 rounds. I treat the shotgun in NS in the same manner and tactics such as strafing. To me, it works amazing well rather then unloading 30 LMG rounds to kill a single charging Skulk...then reloading and finding 2 more of them along with a lurk eating my courpse. With a single fully loaded shotgun/armor/handgun/knife, I think I would do more then kill a few aliens <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> . As for HA and a SG as someone said eariler, I walk too slow to effectively use the SG to its full potential so a JetPack and SG will do it for me and godly it is <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> .
I had cases where the rest of my team got ambushed, raped and left me alone to defend who else but my own behind. I was armed with the SG and fended off a Fade with some great pre-emptive shots and some mad strafing. I eventually got that last final buckshot plugged in his brain and ended up crawlin back to home base with 11 HP, no Armor and a pair of wet pants <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
So over-all, the SG isn't as bad as most people expect it to be on the glance. Try it if your team has a few extra bucks and your on the advange. With a little practice and thoughtful manuvurbility/tactics, I think it will prove itself useful.
<!--QuoteBegin--DeadlyFreeze+Nov 16 2002, 05:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DeadlyFreeze @ Nov 16 2002, 05:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Obviously you have never fired a shotgun before <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Obviously you've never been teleported to a ship infested with aliens before and used the nanomaterial that is dripping from the ceiling to teleport you between "gates". <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would see how you find that bizzare but it makes common sense. If you were a gun and you fired 50 bullets with a high rate of fire...wouldn't it pack less of a punch? And how about a gun that fired 10 bullets with a slow firing rate have that extra punch? I think that would make perfect sense...and so if the LMG had the same caliber as the pistol...I think nobody who like to use the LMG because it'll be inaccurate like balls. But the Kharaa might enjoy it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The rate of fire and magazine capacity have nothing to do with the power of each bullet. Two guns could fire at the same speeds, yet one gun is less controlable due to a heavier calibre. Two guns could have the same amount of bullets, but one gun has a bigger magazine to hold bigger bullets.
I think what a lot of commanders fail to see is that the shotgun can have a great role in the early game before hmgs and whatnot are up and running. Shotguns are perfect for taking out buildings such as early turret buildup and resource towers (quickly, that is, as knifing them is a tad awkward). Shotguns are also very nice against skulks if you can track 'em. I dunno, I think a lot of people underestimate its effectiveness. Perhaps the largest thing against it is that it just isn't that popular. But that's not something that's really a balance issue. It could probably stand to be a couple of RP less, but I wouldn't knock 'em down so much that you could hand them out like candy.
A shotgun blast deals 160 damage without upgrades, 208 damage with full upgrades.
It takes 143 damage to kill a Carapace upgraded Skulk - that's one shot. It takes 150 damage to kill a Carapace upgraded Lerk - that's one shot. It takes 286 damage to kill an unupgraded Fade - that's two shots. It takes 500 damage to kill a Carapace upgraded Fade - that's three shots as long as you have a weapons upgrade.
The major advantage of a shotty is the ability to instakill your foes. A HMG against a badly injured Fade may take a second or two to kill it; it might have time to run or Blink away. In contrast, the Shotty instakills that poor Fade, it has no chance to do anything.
Private_ColemanPhD in Video GamesJoin Date: 2002-11-07Member: 7510Members
<!--QuoteBegin--DeadlyFreeze+Nov 16 2002, 05:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DeadlyFreeze @ Nov 16 2002, 05:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...anything else (onos/fade/lerks/offense towers) will most likely get you killed...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I find it works rather well against offense towers...
That's assuming that you hit your target with every "pellet" from the gun. If you're at a range close enough to a fade that you can do that, he can kill you with his claws quicker than you can pump 3 100% accurate shots into him. For the smaller stuff I'm sure it's great, though.
In my experience, Fades will backpedal away from a Shotgunner. The Shotgun is not a versatile weapon, it means to deliver heavy damage in a short amount of time at close ranger. The shotgun breaks smaller aliens much like a crackerjack. Heck, the Fade has a hard time against a Marine armed with a shotgun and base armor. The problem is the Shotgun can only deliver its punch at near terminal range and you use that to your advantage. Mainly, I find that the best placement for a shotgun Marine is either as a secondary point man for a Marine squad or in the vents with a jetpack.
NarfwakJoin Date: 2002-11-02Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
edited November 2002
<!--QuoteBegin--BoddoZerg+Nov 19 2002, 08:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BoddoZerg @ Nov 19 2002, 08:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It takes 286 damage to kill an unupgraded Fade - that's two shots. It takes 500 damage to kill a Carapace upgraded Fade - that's three shots as long as you have a weapons upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pfft, shooties are pointless againt fades. At range, they can just nuke you with acid rockets as your shootey does no damage to them at all (remember, the cone system for damage/hit calculation). At close range, you're shredded like lettuce in the time it takes to pump the shootey.
EDIT: This is taken from both sides of the equation - both as a fade (and an alien watching another fade), and as a marine (and a mraine watching another marine).
Let's face it - NS is not a realism mod. A real-life shotgun actually doesn't spread nearly so much as this game would have you believe. If you must look at a game, look at Rogue Spear's shotgun blast. Much more realistic.
Or better yet, go to your local shooting range a pop off a few twelve gauge shells if you don't mind a bit of a sore shoulder.
Even firing from a distance of twenty to thirty feet, the area of damage (translation: hole in target) will have a radius of less than four inches.
ok....personally i really hate shotguns...when i become a Com i just proceed to equiping my troops with HMGs...they are so much better for taking out Structures and Units. Heck for me even an LMG is better...cause it has a further effective range....as in the shots do not spread so far apart. So i can actually start damaging my threat from far away...and not wait for the Alien to be right up in my face. (remember every bullet which hits hurts the alien)
I've killed every alien with my shotgun except a onos. Fades are no problem, i just shoot em around corners and then they run. Then they try to jump out and suprise you and use slash. Thats when I can give them a nice shot to the chest, insant death.
Comments
I like to start with a pistol for range, shotgun for melee and mines for placing under turret factories and in vents.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Small machine guns aren't supposed to have single, strong rounds. What they lack in power, they make up in rate of fire.
A Colt 45 will knock you on your arse.
Actually, its 13 less then a Grenade Launcher, and 5 Less then an HMG. You also need to figure in the 35 RP's for the availibilty for the HMG, and the extra 50 more for the Grenade Launcher availibility. The shotgun is one of the best guns in the game, and you should be glad its so cheap and easily accessible.
but it is supposed to be fairly accurate still at medium range.
as it is, due to the spread about half the pellets will miss a def chamber at just a few meters distance.
that's to much spread. and nobody is asking for a shotgun with no spread, just less.
And yes, the client site 'hit holes' do not accurately reflect the actual strikes.
At long range neither of them will ever hit anything, at medium range the HMG shines, and at short range the SG shines. Put on a jetpack, fly on top of a hive, and go hard! It'll die faster than your best-man's wedding speech.
A Colt 45 will knock you on your arse. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I can say is... LOL! I nominate Shrike to give some speech... after all he's from the Firearms forum. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Give me a Shotgun over a HMG any day. The HMG's sustained damage output is better, but it doesn't get instakills; the shotty does. A hurt Fade who gets shot a few times by HMG has time to Blink away; a single shotty blast will kill him instantly, no time to run or hide.
And later in the game, throw me a jetpack, and it's whomping time.
I have taken many fades out with the shotgun. Oh how they underestimate it's power. It's faster than using an HMG .. try it.
However, if you lower the cost of the SG any more, then there will be loads of them around. And those poor skulks will just have to hide it out until Hive Two comes up. *shudder*
(I do so love it when a commander drops an hmg at my feet and I tell him SHOTGUN and he's totally stunned)
Coming back from a marine win last night I did just that and after I was all loaded up I chased a fade out of our base at Hera.
And got an acid rock in the face.
Spawning back immediately I was now confronted with two fades chipping away at our turrets near the Hall of Dust/Doom. Remebering the golden rules of marine combat I threw them out the window and death charged down the hallway unloading completely into the fade on the left. Failing to kill him in one clip I had the sudden feeling that I wasn't going to have the time I had envisioned to reload. Taking out the pistol quickly I proceeded to DROP the fade and run for my silly **obscenity** back up the ramp as the other fade recovered from the bizare incident and began to swipe at me.
As I ran suddenly my pistol went down.... and I was holding my loving shotty again! Suddenly feeling a little braver I turned and shotguned the fade in the face.
And he swiped me BACK ... in the FACE.
It was on now.
I leveled the shotgun to be more effective (aka: center mass to get more pellets in) and began to pump out bullets as me and the fade danced a jig that might never be danced again.
The next person to get their hit in was going to determine this battle. If I couldn't nail this guy the other alien was going to come back for retribution and they'd continue to hammer the base relentlessly and we were going to be in some serious troubl-
And then I shot him a third time and he died.
Rather glad that I was still alive I lovingly filled up my poor little empty shotgun. And asked my commander for some help seeing as how I only had 8 health left.
For the next half hour I was the bane of skulks, gorges AND fades (even nipping an onos or two in the **obscenity** as they briefly got their third hive.)
There's just something about a weapon that when you level it at something you can expect instant death for one of two sides. Kind of like portable russian roulette.
Anyway, that's my take on shotguns. Commanders: give them out more often, find a shotgunner and make him part of your squad.
I agree but I am also not very skilled with a shotgun unless I'm with a Jetpack because I get screwed if a skulk starts running circles around me. The reason I don't drop shotguns when I'm a commander is that it ain't really cost effective. Most marines ask me for HMG instead of shotty like 80% in most games. Plus the HMG is only 5 res more than the shotty. I also did notice that the shotgun spread was a little akward whenever I used it.
In good hands it can pwn, pwn just as good or better then the HMG. Most people don't have good hands, many claners don't even have these "good hands".
(or so I assume)
Is a large percentage of players less effective at using it compared to the LMG?(not use it awesome, just kill more then the LMG) If so, then it adds to the the "It won't hurt to lower the cost" camp.
IMO, a squad of shottie pros(a single squad being uncommon i'd assume) in a clan game is exagerated. Sure they'd be a force to be reckoned with, but I have my doubts about them constantly winning the game early with this. This is one "keep it costly" argument I've heard.
The best solution would be to make it at a cost that is too expensive to make it an LMG replacement, yet cheap enough to give players and commanders incentive to use it. What would this cost be? 16-18 points. 18 would be great for guranteing balance and keeping both camps happy, 16 would be great for giving it a more pronounced cost advantage over the HMG.
I use the shottie if I can for one reason... FUN! It's one of the most awesome shotguns I've seen in a computer game. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Why would I give marines shotguns when I can setup a TF at a resource point, secure it with triangle position? It's much better to trust because turrets always are at 100 % efficiency. Marines sometimes, will be noobies and be stupid and won't know how to use the shotgun.
18 is STILL alot of resources..... that's just 2 less then right now, and it's effectiveness is STILL not as good as most people think.
For a shotgun to be EXTEREMLY effective, you must have a jetpack or heavy armor. Without it, your still fade meat.
Shotgun users will still have problem against lerks + fades when aliens work together.... Umbera, have fades sit in the umbera, and let them acid rockets fly....
Classicly, the shotgun is used in cqb, but the freaking problem is that a skulk is so fast that, they'll circle you, use the walls around you, and be so lightning quick you'll never hit them unless you see them come from a mile away.
You have a much better chance of killing an Onos with a HMG + HA, then a Shotgun + HA. Why? Onos charges, you let loose HMG, and you continually jump to avoid him, and 11 bullets per sec, with about each bullet doing 20 damage point blank will bring a freaking Onos down faster then the shotgun. You can shoot about 2 shotgun blasts for about every 1.7 seconds. In those 1.7 seconds, I can hit an Onos for about over 400 damage already......
In cost effectiveness, the HMG is STILL better then the Shotgun...
IMO the Shotgun ROF and Recoil should be lowerd, then that will make it a whole heck load better. But keep it at 20 resource to balance it out.
I'm with Flamefox on this one. Then again, a jetpack on a skilled marine with any weapon kind of transforms them into a new class all by itself.
For doing damage to enemies, the shotgun is a king. For structures, on the other hand, grenades and the welder have the claim to royalty. There is nothing, nothing I tell you, like flying on top of a hive and getting out the ol' welder. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
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I would see how you find that bizzare but it makes common sense. If you were a gun and you fired 50 bullets with a high rate of fire...wouldn't it pack less of a punch? And how about a gun that fired 10 bullets with a slow firing rate have that extra punch? I think that would make perfect sense...and so if the LMG had the same caliber as the pistol...I think nobody who like to use the LMG because it'll be inaccurate like balls. But the Kharaa might enjoy it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for gettin back on the shotgun topic, I can see how this gun out of a small arsenal of 4 primary weapons can tick so many players off. The price is kinda steep but to my opinion, it is a great weapon. The LMG I would say, a great weapon over-all. Offensively, the HMG is the best weapon of choice. Defensively, the GL for clearing out the Kharaa in them annoying vents overlooking your most resent exspansion or main base such as ns_bast. The SG lacks power and accuracy as distance grows but I have pis5ed off countless players by blasting their freshly upgraded alien form into smitherines. If you guys played CS (which most definitely have), the pump in that game is dangerous and a well-known weapon for mass destruction with i think 7-8 rounds. I treat the shotgun in NS in the same manner and tactics such as strafing. To me, it works amazing well rather then unloading 30 LMG rounds to kill a single charging Skulk...then reloading and finding 2 more of them along with a lurk eating my courpse. With a single fully loaded shotgun/armor/handgun/knife, I think I would do more then kill a few aliens <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> . As for HA and a SG as someone said eariler, I walk too slow to effectively use the SG to its full potential so a JetPack and SG will do it for me and godly it is <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> .
I had cases where the rest of my team got ambushed, raped and left me alone to defend who else but my own behind. I was armed with the SG and fended off a Fade with some great pre-emptive shots and some mad strafing. I eventually got that last final buckshot plugged in his brain and ended up crawlin back to home base with 11 HP, no Armor and a pair of wet pants <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
So over-all, the SG isn't as bad as most people expect it to be on the glance. Try it if your team has a few extra bucks and your on the advange. With a little practice and thoughtful manuvurbility/tactics, I think it will prove itself useful.
Obviously you've never been teleported to a ship infested with aliens before and used the nanomaterial that is dripping from the ceiling to teleport you between "gates". <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Heh, just had to say it.
The rate of fire and magazine capacity have nothing to do with the power of each bullet. Two guns could fire at the same speeds, yet one gun is less controlable due to a heavier calibre. Two guns could have the same amount of bullets, but one gun has a bigger magazine to hold bigger bullets.
Pistol - 20 damage with no upgrades.
LMG - 10 damage with no upgrades.
It takes 143 damage to kill a Carapace upgraded Skulk - that's one shot.
It takes 150 damage to kill a Carapace upgraded Lerk - that's one shot.
It takes 286 damage to kill an unupgraded Fade - that's two shots.
It takes 500 damage to kill a Carapace upgraded Fade - that's three shots as long as you have a weapons upgrade.
The major advantage of a shotty is the ability to instakill your foes. A HMG against a badly injured Fade may take a second or two to kill it; it might have time to run or Blink away. In contrast, the Shotty instakills that poor Fade, it has no chance to do anything.
I find it works rather well against offense towers...
Rainman
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Pfft, shooties are pointless againt fades. At range, they can just nuke you with acid rockets as your shootey does no damage to them at all (remember, the cone system for damage/hit calculation). At close range, you're shredded like lettuce in the time it takes to pump the shootey.
EDIT: This is taken from both sides of the equation - both as a fade (and an alien watching another fade), and as a marine (and a mraine watching another marine).
Or better yet, go to your local shooting range a pop off a few twelve gauge shells if you don't mind a bit of a sore shoulder.
Even firing from a distance of twenty to thirty feet, the area of damage (translation: hole in target) will have a radius of less than four inches.
Wubba#3