important areas in maps = fine. good reloc spots (but not TOO good) = fine.
some hives better than others = bad. very bad. why? because you cant decide the starting hive, you cant even see it before the game starts. if some hive is much weaker than some other then it seriously restricts the aliens and hinders their chances of winning. take powersilo on nothing as an example.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bast was a map where you needed to bunch up because there were few routes running from point A to point B. It made for very enjoyable play as you couldn't really avoid action. Ref was a wide open hive but Engine and Feed were easier to keep a hold of. I think most players would just have called for a few more vertical cylinders to clog up the ref ceiling and make it less a JP heaven.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
bast was a map where the aliens had to scout or lame up all the vents, or else be prepared for some sneaky sieging actions. consider that good or bad, i dont care. what i've thought is that vents are "alien" territory and they're there to help them, not the other way around. whatever, but i sure had fun sneaking all those pg's into hives, even though the map itself frustrated me to death. i think i played 5-10 marine rounds on the old bast for every 1 alien round.
ref was and still is very open, yeah, but the other hives werent that great either. feed was a pain to defend against a siege from tram tunnel, and engine was basically totally exposed to an assault from the vents. that is, if you somehow stopped the marines from setting up a reloc/turret farm in main aft. there were lots of problems, many have been addressed to but there still are a few. hopefully bast will be even better in b6, than it has ever been.
Oh I disagree Necrosis. Engine hive was horrible. If the marines set up turrets in main aft, you either lost the game (if you had engine hive) or you'ld have just lost a hive. Engine was really easy to take because all you had to do was lame up main aft. Feedwater was never holdable, because you can siege from tram tunnel. That giant hallway was a nightmare for any alien.
So this is where I lose faith in your arguement - Engine and feed were not hives that were easily held, but rather easily demolished.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->TFC is the peak of symmetrical mapping.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats by design. On the maps that have symmetry, both teams have the exact abilities and objectives, it makes perfect sense to design the bases to mirror each other. Dismissing TFC maps for being symetrical is like dismissing HL2 for being 'too linear..'
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why can't we have both? Thats what I want to know too. I think in part its because a fair and balanced map is anathema to character. If its all the same and there's no quirks, then there's no character. If there are important areas, better places to relocate to, better hives, then a map gets a bit more individual.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can attain balance without resorting to symetrical design. Nobody is asking for perfect balance, merely the removal of <b>massive</b> inbalances. Hives like powersilo (and the lack of access to resources from it) are massive unbalances, its not simply a 'quirk' or part of the 'charactor'. With the old bast, it was feedwater that got the lion's share of the resources (3 extra nodes less than 10 seconds away), while engine was left isolated and easy to contain from mainaft. Essentially the layout was so disjointed, it was inpossible to balance without radical changes.
I really didnt see many Aft relocates work when engine was the hive. No marine got there fast enough to have something built before 4 skulks ate him. Engine hive also meant a lot of alien lame in main aft, which wasn't necessarily bad the map is small enough to allow for it.
As for vent scouting, I see lots of maps where vents are used for seiging. Red room anyone? If Bast was a big map then you would have validity in talking about the trouble with having to scout constantly.. but Bast was tiny and easy to scout.
The only real problem with being a small map is that sieges get very overpowering. Changing some of the distances might have helped, or breaking up Tram Tunnel a bit. Shuffing Engine Hive over to a corner was, I belive, excessive.
Main aft isnt a hard place to break. Gorges can do exceptional damage with bilebomb. Tram was a pain, but how many times would an alien player totally ignore tram? A concerted alien rush could always break into tram, it wasnt that hard. Good if you were camped down at one end and had the whole length to fire in, but even then you have the tunnels and tram car for cover.
Feed had nodes and that meant it was well travelled. Tram was favourable to marines, the combination of the two made Feed a desirable hive. I think it worked out well. Engine was isolated but offered the quickest way to directly pressure the marines. It also covered main aft, which was the crux of the entire map. Any more would have been advantageous. I find those hives a lot more interesting that working to a formula where each hive/MS must be a set distance from 2 nodes, that all hives must be equidistant to MS and each other, etc..
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I really didnt see many Aft relocates work when engine was the hive. No marine got there fast enough to have something built before 4 skulks ate him. Engine hive also meant a lot of alien lame in main aft, which wasn't necessarily bad the map is small enough to allow for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lucky you then, around half of the games i played on where aliens started with engine ended in an aft reloc + teching up to HA vs. one-hive aliens. fun to the max, yeah. oh, and if aliens somehow kept aft and lamed it up, marines could always siege from their base. or if the oc's were at the rt then simply get a gl, you'd be out of reach of the oc's.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for vent scouting, I see lots of maps where vents are used for seiging. Red room anyone? If Bast was a big map then you would have validity in talking about the trouble with having to scout constantly.. but Bast was tiny and easy to scout.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
poor example, red room requires JP's to get in and is situated in the "alien" level of the map. in bast, however, the vents were easily accesible from marine start immediately as the game started.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Tram was a pain, but how many times would an alien player totally ignore tram? A concerted alien rush could always break into tram, it wasnt that hard. Good if you were camped down at one end and had the whole length to fire in, but even then you have the tunnels and tram car for cover.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh, were talking about the b4a version not the pre-remake? with vents and all? yeah, those vents are a little help but nevertheless tram is THE marine camp, and sieging from there is very easy unless aliens had 2 hives.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find those hives a lot more interesting that working to a formula where each hive/MS must be a set distance from 2 nodes, that all hives must be equidistant to MS and each other, etc..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
granted that a map shouldnt really have the equidistant layout presented so obviously as, say, veil, but still having a layout that creates some kind of square between the ms and all the hives, or a triangle from the ms and the 2 side hives with the middle hive somewhere near the path from left to right hive, is the most FAIR. to both teams. the map can be build on that basic setup in almost any way.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Feb 4 2005, 08:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Feb 4 2005, 08:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, from top to bottom.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Calling DM mindless is pretty sad and really shows you have NO IDEA what you're talking about. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Compared to coordinated teamplay with a set commander, DM <b>is</b> mindless. Braindead pathfollowing and fragging, well woop de doo. Like none of us have never seen that before. If you find DM more thought provoking than trying to hold together a team of nubs then you clearly aren't playing enough. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Dear Necrosis,
Chess is not a team game. You only have one objective. By the definition used by you above, it appears Chess therefore is mindless. This is something I choose to contest. And I'm not tremendously swayed by the passive/aggressive insult to all DM players tacked on to the end of it.
Team DM or objective based games are <b>not</b> inherently superior to DM based games. They are different. One is about teamwork, one is not.
In fact, it could be argued that games which allow individuals to operate free from the constraints and foibles of team mates are <i>more</i> focused on intellect. It is impossible to plan and execute tactics and strategies as reliably when you are dependant on both the intellect and the preferences of other players. Consequently, all your plans must utilise the KISS principle in order to be statistically viable.
Conversely, when one person can control all the variables, they can fabricate much more complex and deftly co-ordinated plans, as they do not have to account for other people's interpretations, timing or attention span (to name only a few factors which introduce noise to the signal).
Working in a team has advantages, but it also has disadvantages. Not least of these is that it means that good players frequently have to try and teach drooling retards how to play the game if they hope to win, which frequently has the effect of turning perfectly good gameplay into a frustrating outreach program for the willfully ignorant.
If you were to say that Team based games promote socialisation and co-operation and provide different rewards to individual focused gameplay, then I would agree. But you didn't, hence this little admonishment.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Feb 4 2005, 02:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Feb 4 2005, 02:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Compared to coordinated teamplay with a set commander, DM <b>is</b> mindless. Braindead pathfollowing and fragging, well woop de doo. Like none of us have never seen that before. If you find DM more thought provoking than trying to hold together a team of nubs then you clearly aren't playing enough. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> WOW, that's all I have to say. Sad.
Watch some competetive DM, it's definitely not mindless. It's just amazing that you feel you can insult other types of games because you play NS. I love how ton of people who play NS feel that it's in some way superior to all other mindless games. It's awesome. CS is one example. I see it getting bashed constantly here, people talk about how strategically superior NS is, but it's not true. CS takes more teamwork, coordination, skill, etc than NS.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrBen+Feb 6 2005, 07:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrBen @ Feb 6 2005, 07:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah yeah b5 bast sucks. But honestly, who cares? b6 bast is right round the corner and it fixes all the issues in b5 bast. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because somehow Necrosis is saying that this change is bad for 'character'....
Again, no offense to the mappers by any of this. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
While the marines would be sieging, and having to rely on pings or suicidal door related scouting, the aliens could run unmolested through the entire map. Engine required an aggressive start in order to counter the fact that it was very close to MS. Even with sieges, a lot of obs energy would have to be used, and the marines would have to secure a decent amount of nodes in order to justify the expenditure of using sieges to take out 3 OC.
Meanwhile skulks would be running the vents, taking every node down to ref, and usually coming almost full circle and pinning the marines round about double node. This left the vent system, which could be sufficiently lamed up or vaguely patrolled by skulks. By the time marines had the res for a heavy rush to engine, aliens had other hives well in hand.
I'm not saying Main Aft relocates dont work - its conceivable that the marines could outskill the aliens and put up a quick defensive strongpoint. However that would require most of the team, allowing aliens to sneak out the north vents and run to double node (and from there to MS) or rush all the way to feed for a hive. Assuming at least one player was saving for hive, this generally wasnt a problem.
Redroom may require JPs and be close to a hive, but its an evil position to try and take back from marines who have tfarmed it to hell. The Bast vents did not favour the defender, and any gorge could safely bile them without fear of turrets.
I am not saying Engine Hive was an easy place to be. Anytime we spawned in it at game start, there was a lot of swearing and grumbling. But it wasnt an automatic lose by any means.
Ben -
Speaking as a cynic, is it even going to be recognisable as Bast? Current Bast was meant to "fix" real Bast, so I worry about what will be "fixed" for enhanced special edition Bast. Perhaps instead of Greedo shooting first, they fire simultaneously.
Hehe.. but seriously, I do wonder what form these fixes will take.
Grendel -
I am fond of my DM games. But I do not look upon NS as a DM game. Therefore I am keen to avoid NS becoming like a DM game. I compare DM to NS for a direct comparison of hard to perform coordinated teamplay as opposed to John Rambo vs The World. This partially contributes to my deep and abiding dislike for CO mode. Good for training, but woefully unenjoyable compared to trying to comm a team of degenerate suicidalists.
I like chess too, as it happens, but I don't believe it similar to a DM because in many cases a DM involves larger odds. You can draw many similarities at a basic level (balanced board, balanced pieces, end result is down to player skill) but in chess you can't just grab the queen and camp the board.
I believe TDM games are inherently superior to DM games, in the same why NS is superior to the standard TDM format. This is my own biased opinion, based on my own preferences. I am good at DM games, I have played many, and if NS had been a pure DM game, I would not be playing it. I enjoy TDM because cooperation is a harder thing to get in a game than getting top score or most kills/headshots. I enjoy NS because unlike standard TDM you have two very different sides with very different strategies.
I understand and agree with your comments, and if I'd been a bit more conservative I would have overtly stated that its a matter of preference for me as opposed to implying its an accepted fact. Different strokes for different folks, but I prefer teamplay.
We're moving offtopic here (thanks Nad, you never quit) but I just want to counter this since its been mentioned. I find coordinated teamplay more of an intellectual challenge than solo play. In solo play, I am fully aware of the abilities of the "team", and how to maximise them. As the map changes, these abilities will remain the same. Game in, game out. Repetitive.
In team play, you can't be sure of the abilities of the team. You have to consider their actions, your actions, and the enemies actions. Call me nuts but I find it far more rewarding to win a team game, as opposed to what I've been doing for the past two decades, which is winning a solo game. I got bored of solo play long ago, in fact probably during my unbeaten 12 year run at Warhammer 40k. There is no thrill to a solo win anymore.
Long story short, poor choice of words on my part, Grendel. I didnt mean to seem like I was slighting DM players (I am one, haha). What I state are merely my opinions, folks!
Nad - You're not up to speed on my life, but I can assure you that I'm good friends with one of the top UT players around my country, the sort of person who nearly wrecked his house because he had a powercut during a league game. I know what competitive play is like. I know what it is to be able to listen to certain sounds and know that a person has just picked up x and will be turning this corner in 5.. 4... 3.. 2.. 1.. BANG. Individual skill is less of a challenge than team skill.
If anyone would like to continue the topic of the relative merits of Duelling, Deathmatching, Team Deathmatching, and NS, then I'm happy to join a new thread dealing with it. However lets try to stick to maps here, hehe.
Back on the topic of map "fairness" and character -
One could say marines having guns is unfair to the aliens having none (spit being laughable in comparison, and acid rocket virtually useless by the time it arrives), and vice versa in respect to melee weaponry. In the same vein, maps should have a little pinch of unfairness just to flavour things. Not enough to horrendously unbalance things, but enough to give character. Maps need to have a few rooms that stick in the mind for strategic value - rooms other than hives and MS. Thats why people talk about U turn, room with things, red room, etc. All of them are not pleasant places to lose to the enemy, but I dont think they break the maps.
Maybe its the anarchist in me, I just find strategic places more memorable, and you only find a strategic place in an area of relative imbalance. Mappers can use these calculated imbalances to make certain areas of the map very important hotspots for play.
There are some small problems. The door leading from main aft to engine doesn't open. And all of the res nodes are upsidedown, but the res node model has no backfaces so it looks wierd.
Also you need a boost to get to the command chair or to the revolving door. If you take the elevator, you get stuck in a room where you have to suicide. If marines get to refinery, there is no way out due to the layout of the map.
And last but not least, the minimap isn't built correctly..
If he added some of the style in co_suddendrop then it would really please the competitive NSers <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
New Bast is nice on its own merits but if someone makes one similar to the old but with a few fixes (range mostly) then all the better. I'll play both!!
<!--QuoteBegin-Spacer+Feb 7 2005, 01:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spacer @ Feb 7 2005, 01:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Tbh I'm waiting for the GiGaBiTe remake of bast. Based on his previous work it should be a hojillion times better than the official one.
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> DO NOT MOCK THIS GREAT MAPPER
Necrosis, nice post on Page 8. It's nice to see someone else on these boards that can actually think.
The new bast is a waste of space. It's a heaping pile of garbage.
The original bast was awesome. Regardless of balance issues.. what matters is that it was FUN. I define what is fun therefore it is law that the old bast is FUN.
Sure, it was tough on the onos at some select points... actually, the only place I found to be a problem was in the engine hive where the onos had to duck to get out.
The freight elevator and revolving door were keystones of that map.
Too many people look at games as "just games" and subsequently offer rather lame opinions like "omg new bast is so kewl k thx". Sorry, but it's not. If I wanted your opinion, I'd give it to you.
Why not just look at bast as if it were some type of real situation. Aliens have invaded an industrial complex... marines have deployed base camp and need to flush them out. SO WHOOPIE DOO.. THERE'S AN ELEVATOR THAT THE ONOS HAVE TO DEAL WITH. Big flippin' deal.
BTW... Necrosis is correct in what he has previously stated.
When generalizing about "DM", running and gunning is what SHOULD pop up in your head. Or you can be a beefcake like Grendal and start using ten-dollar words to try and explain the autonomous fundamentals behind deathmatch.
By the way. He said DM is mindless compared to a game that utilizes a central-commander type system. He didn't outright say 'DM is mindless'.
Plus Grendal.. you formulated an incorrect definition to compare chess with. Actually, I find it preposterous that you even sought to claim that his comparison between DM and a 'CCTG' denotes a definition to compare chess too. It's just funny. You must have got that definition from that "special" place you visit from time to time. Isn't that where your imaginary friend, Ralph, lives?
The simple matter of fact is... a central-commanding team game with a multitude of game-changing variables is by far more mentally stimulating than a game of Counter-Strike Dust DM or even NS Combat. A simple break down of functions proves it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Xaajeh+Feb 8 2005, 06:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xaajeh @ Feb 8 2005, 06:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The original bast was awesome. Regardless of balance issues.. what matters is that it was FUN. I define what is fun therefore it is law that the old bast is FUN. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> unfair = fun. thank god we got that cleared.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sure, it was tough on the onos at some select points... actually, the only place I found to be a problem was in the engine hive where the onos had to duck to get out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
are we already forgetting the path from water treatment to main aft? or tram tunnel? or ref, if marines have jp?
... get a clue, or at least the old 2.0 bast.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The freight elevator and revolving door were keystones of that map.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
they also made marine start impossible to attack and lenghtened alien-win games by 20 minutes on average.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Too many people look at games as "just games" and subsequently offer rather lame opinions like "omg new bast is so kewl k thx". Sorry, but it's not. If I wanted your opinion, I'd give it to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you need to elaborate on this, or at least tell me what the hell you're talking about.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why not just look at bast as if it were some type of real situation. Aliens have invaded an industrial complex... marines have deployed base camp and need to flush them out. SO WHOOPIE DOO.. THERE'S AN ELEVATOR THAT THE ONOS HAVE TO DEAL WITH. Big flippin' deal.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its a multiplayer game with real people, not an sp game experience where you can happily rampage through ai-controlled aliens in a cool environment. unfair != fun.
Comments
good reloc spots (but not TOO good) = fine.
some hives better than others = bad. very bad. why? because you cant decide the starting hive, you cant even see it before the game starts. if some hive is much weaker than some other then it seriously restricts the aliens and hinders their chances of winning. take powersilo on nothing as an example.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bast was a map where you needed to bunch up because there were few routes running from point A to point B. It made for very enjoyable play as you couldn't really avoid action. Ref was a wide open hive but Engine and Feed were easier to keep a hold of. I think most players would just have called for a few more vertical cylinders to clog up the ref ceiling and make it less a JP heaven.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
bast was a map where the aliens had to scout or lame up all the vents, or else be prepared for some sneaky sieging actions. consider that good or bad, i dont care. what i've thought is that vents are "alien" territory and they're there to help them, not the other way around. whatever, but i sure had fun sneaking all those pg's into hives, even though the map itself frustrated me to death. i think i played 5-10 marine rounds on the old bast for every 1 alien round.
ref was and still is very open, yeah, but the other hives werent that great either. feed was a pain to defend against a siege from tram tunnel, and engine was basically totally exposed to an assault from the vents. that is, if you somehow stopped the marines from setting up a reloc/turret farm in main aft. there were lots of problems, many have been addressed to but there still are a few. hopefully bast will be even better in b6, than it has ever been.
So this is where I lose faith in your arguement - Engine and feed were not hives that were easily held, but rather easily demolished.
Thats by design. On the maps that have symmetry, both teams have the exact abilities and objectives, it makes perfect sense to design the bases to mirror each other. Dismissing TFC maps for being symetrical is like dismissing HL2 for being 'too linear..'
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why can't we have both? Thats what I want to know too. I think in part its because a fair and balanced map is anathema to character. If its all the same and there's no quirks, then there's no character. If there are important areas, better places to relocate to, better hives, then a map gets a bit more individual.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can attain balance without resorting to symetrical design. Nobody is asking for perfect balance, merely the removal of <b>massive</b> inbalances. Hives like powersilo (and the lack of access to resources from it) are massive unbalances, its not simply a 'quirk' or part of the 'charactor'. With the old bast, it was feedwater that got the lion's share of the resources (3 extra nodes less than 10 seconds away), while engine was left isolated and easy to contain from mainaft. Essentially the layout was so disjointed, it was inpossible to balance without radical changes.
As for vent scouting, I see lots of maps where vents are used for seiging. Red room anyone? If Bast was a big map then you would have validity in talking about the trouble with having to scout constantly.. but Bast was tiny and easy to scout.
The only real problem with being a small map is that sieges get very overpowering. Changing some of the distances might have helped, or breaking up Tram Tunnel a bit. Shuffing Engine Hive over to a corner was, I belive, excessive.
Main aft isnt a hard place to break. Gorges can do exceptional damage with bilebomb. Tram was a pain, but how many times would an alien player totally ignore tram? A concerted alien rush could always break into tram, it wasnt that hard. Good if you were camped down at one end and had the whole length to fire in, but even then you have the tunnels and tram car for cover.
Feed had nodes and that meant it was well travelled. Tram was favourable to marines, the combination of the two made Feed a desirable hive. I think it worked out well. Engine was isolated but offered the quickest way to directly pressure the marines. It also covered main aft, which was the crux of the entire map. Any more would have been advantageous. I find those hives a lot more interesting that working to a formula where each hive/MS must be a set distance from 2 nodes, that all hives must be equidistant to MS and each other, etc..
lucky you then, around half of the games i played on where aliens started with engine ended in an aft reloc + teching up to HA vs. one-hive aliens. fun to the max, yeah. oh, and if aliens somehow kept aft and lamed it up, marines could always siege from their base. or if the oc's were at the rt then simply get a gl, you'd be out of reach of the oc's.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for vent scouting, I see lots of maps where vents are used for seiging. Red room anyone? If Bast was a big map then you would have validity in talking about the trouble with having to scout constantly.. but Bast was tiny and easy to scout.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
poor example, red room requires JP's to get in and is situated in the "alien" level of the map. in bast, however, the vents were easily accesible from marine start immediately as the game started.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Tram was a pain, but how many times would an alien player totally ignore tram? A concerted alien rush could always break into tram, it wasnt that hard. Good if you were camped down at one end and had the whole length to fire in, but even then you have the tunnels and tram car for cover.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh, were talking about the b4a version not the pre-remake? with vents and all? yeah, those vents are a little help but nevertheless tram is THE marine camp, and sieging from there is very easy unless aliens had 2 hives.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find those hives a lot more interesting that working to a formula where each hive/MS must be a set distance from 2 nodes, that all hives must be equidistant to MS and each other, etc..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
granted that a map shouldnt really have the equidistant layout presented so obviously as, say, veil, but still having a layout that creates some kind of square between the ms and all the hives, or a triangle from the ms and the 2 side hives with the middle hive somewhere near the path from left to right hive, is the most FAIR. to both teams. the map can be build on that basic setup in almost any way.
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Calling DM mindless is pretty sad and really shows you have NO IDEA what you're talking about.
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Compared to coordinated teamplay with a set commander, DM <b>is</b> mindless. Braindead pathfollowing and fragging, well woop de doo. Like none of us have never seen that before. If you find DM more thought provoking than trying to hold together a team of nubs then you clearly aren't playing enough.
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Dear Necrosis,
Chess is not a team game. You only have one objective. By the definition used by you above, it appears Chess therefore is mindless. This is something I choose to contest. And I'm not tremendously swayed by the passive/aggressive insult to all DM players tacked on to the end of it.
Team DM or objective based games are <b>not</b> inherently superior to DM based games. They are different. One is about teamwork, one is not.
In fact, it could be argued that games which allow individuals to operate free from the constraints and foibles of team mates are <i>more</i> focused on intellect. It is impossible to plan and execute tactics and strategies as reliably when you are dependant on both the intellect and the preferences of other players. Consequently, all your plans must utilise the KISS principle in order to be statistically viable.
Conversely, when one person can control all the variables, they can fabricate much more complex and deftly co-ordinated plans, as they do not have to account for other people's interpretations, timing or attention span (to name only a few factors which introduce noise to the signal).
Working in a team has advantages, but it also has disadvantages. Not least of these is that it means that good players frequently have to try and teach drooling retards how to play the game if they hope to win, which frequently has the effect of turning perfectly good gameplay into a frustrating outreach program for the willfully ignorant.
If you were to say that Team based games promote socialisation and co-operation and provide different rewards to individual focused gameplay, then I would agree. But you didn't, hence this little admonishment.
WOW, that's all I have to say. Sad.
Watch some competetive DM, it's definitely not mindless. It's just amazing that you feel you can insult other types of games because you play NS. I love how ton of people who play NS feel that it's in some way superior to all other mindless games. It's awesome. CS is one example. I see it getting bashed constantly here, people talk about how strategically superior NS is, but it's not true. CS takes more teamwork, coordination, skill, etc than NS.
Because somehow Necrosis is saying that this change is bad for 'character'....
Again, no offense to the mappers by any of this. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
While the marines would be sieging, and having to rely on pings or suicidal door related scouting, the aliens could run unmolested through the entire map. Engine required an aggressive start in order to counter the fact that it was very close to MS. Even with sieges, a lot of obs energy would have to be used, and the marines would have to secure a decent amount of nodes in order to justify the expenditure of using sieges to take out 3 OC.
Meanwhile skulks would be running the vents, taking every node down to ref, and usually coming almost full circle and pinning the marines round about double node. This left the vent system, which could be sufficiently lamed up or vaguely patrolled by skulks. By the time marines had the res for a heavy rush to engine, aliens had other hives well in hand.
I'm not saying Main Aft relocates dont work - its conceivable that the marines could outskill the aliens and put up a quick defensive strongpoint. However that would require most of the team, allowing aliens to sneak out the north vents and run to double node (and from there to MS) or rush all the way to feed for a hive. Assuming at least one player was saving for hive, this generally wasnt a problem.
Redroom may require JPs and be close to a hive, but its an evil position to try and take back from marines who have tfarmed it to hell. The Bast vents did not favour the defender, and any gorge could safely bile them without fear of turrets.
I am not saying Engine Hive was an easy place to be. Anytime we spawned in it at game start, there was a lot of swearing and grumbling. But it wasnt an automatic lose by any means.
Ben -
Speaking as a cynic, is it even going to be recognisable as Bast? Current Bast was meant to "fix" real Bast, so I worry about what will be "fixed" for enhanced special edition Bast. Perhaps instead of Greedo shooting first, they fire simultaneously.
Hehe.. but seriously, I do wonder what form these fixes will take.
Grendel -
I am fond of my DM games. But I do not look upon NS as a DM game. Therefore I am keen to avoid NS becoming like a DM game. I compare DM to NS for a direct comparison of hard to perform coordinated teamplay as opposed to John Rambo vs The World. This partially contributes to my deep and abiding dislike for CO mode. Good for training, but woefully unenjoyable compared to trying to comm a team of degenerate suicidalists.
I like chess too, as it happens, but I don't believe it similar to a DM because in many cases a DM involves larger odds. You can draw many similarities at a basic level (balanced board, balanced pieces, end result is down to player skill) but in chess you can't just grab the queen and camp the board.
I believe TDM games are inherently superior to DM games, in the same why NS is superior to the standard TDM format. This is my own biased opinion, based on my own preferences. I am good at DM games, I have played many, and if NS had been a pure DM game, I would not be playing it. I enjoy TDM because cooperation is a harder thing to get in a game than getting top score or most kills/headshots. I enjoy NS because unlike standard TDM you have two very different sides with very different strategies.
I understand and agree with your comments, and if I'd been a bit more conservative I would have overtly stated that its a matter of preference for me as opposed to implying its an accepted fact. Different strokes for different folks, but I prefer teamplay.
We're moving offtopic here (thanks Nad, you never quit) but I just want to counter this since its been mentioned. I find coordinated teamplay more of an intellectual challenge than solo play. In solo play, I am fully aware of the abilities of the "team", and how to maximise them. As the map changes, these abilities will remain the same. Game in, game out. Repetitive.
In team play, you can't be sure of the abilities of the team. You have to consider their actions, your actions, and the enemies actions. Call me nuts but I find it far more rewarding to win a team game, as opposed to what I've been doing for the past two decades, which is winning a solo game. I got bored of solo play long ago, in fact probably during my unbeaten 12 year run at Warhammer 40k. There is no thrill to a solo win anymore.
Long story short, poor choice of words on my part, Grendel. I didnt mean to seem like I was slighting DM players (I am one, haha). What I state are merely my
opinions, folks!
Nad - You're not up to speed on my life, but I can assure you that I'm good friends with one of the top UT players around my country, the sort of person who nearly wrecked his house because he had a powercut during a league game. I know what competitive play is like. I know what it is to be able to listen to certain sounds and know that a person has just picked up x and will be turning this corner in 5.. 4... 3.. 2.. 1.. BANG. Individual skill is less of a challenge than team skill.
If anyone would like to continue the topic of the relative merits of Duelling, Deathmatching, Team Deathmatching, and NS, then I'm happy to join a new thread dealing with it. However lets try to stick to maps here, hehe.
Back on the topic of map "fairness" and character -
One could say marines having guns is unfair to the aliens having none (spit being laughable in comparison, and acid rocket virtually useless by the time it arrives), and vice versa in respect to melee weaponry. In the same vein, maps should have a little pinch of unfairness just to flavour things. Not enough to horrendously unbalance things, but enough to give character. Maps need to have a few rooms that stick in the mind for strategic value - rooms other than hives and MS. Thats why people talk about U turn, room with things, red room, etc. All of them are not pleasant places to lose to the enemy, but I dont think they break the maps.
Maybe its the anarchist in me, I just find strategic places more memorable, and you only find a strategic place in an area of relative imbalance. Mappers can use these calculated imbalances to make certain areas of the map very important hotspots for play.
Also you need a boost to get to the command chair or to the revolving door. If you take the elevator, you get stuck in a room where you have to suicide. If marines get to refinery, there is no way out due to the layout of the map.
And last but not least, the minimap isn't built correctly..
(In case you can't tell it's a joke..)
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DO NOT MOCK THIS GREAT MAPPER
The new bast is a waste of space. It's a heaping pile of garbage.
The original bast was awesome. Regardless of balance issues.. what matters is that it was FUN. I define what is fun therefore it is law that the old bast is FUN.
Sure, it was tough on the onos at some select points... actually, the only place I found to be a problem was in the engine hive where the onos had to duck to get out.
The freight elevator and revolving door were keystones of that map.
Too many people look at games as "just games" and subsequently offer rather lame opinions like "omg new bast is so kewl k thx". Sorry, but it's not. If I wanted your opinion, I'd give it to you.
Why not just look at bast as if it were some type of real situation. Aliens have invaded an industrial complex... marines have deployed base camp and need to flush them out. SO WHOOPIE DOO.. THERE'S AN ELEVATOR THAT THE ONOS HAVE TO DEAL WITH. Big flippin' deal.
BTW... Necrosis is correct in what he has previously stated.
When generalizing about "DM", running and gunning is what SHOULD pop up in your head. Or you can be a beefcake like Grendal and start using ten-dollar words to try and explain the autonomous fundamentals behind deathmatch.
By the way. He said DM is mindless compared to a game that utilizes a central-commander type system. He didn't outright say 'DM is mindless'.
Plus Grendal.. you formulated an incorrect definition to compare chess with. Actually, I find it preposterous that you even sought to claim that his comparison between DM and a 'CCTG' denotes a definition to compare chess too. It's just funny. You must have got that definition from that "special" place you visit from time to time. Isn't that where your imaginary friend, Ralph, lives?
The simple matter of fact is... a central-commanding team game with a multitude of game-changing variables is by far more mentally stimulating than a game of Counter-Strike Dust DM or even NS Combat. A simple break down of functions proves it.
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unfair = fun. thank god we got that cleared.
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are we already forgetting the path from water treatment to main aft? or tram tunnel? or ref, if marines have jp?
... get a clue, or at least the old 2.0 bast.
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The freight elevator and revolving door were keystones of that map.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
they also made marine start impossible to attack and lenghtened alien-win games by 20 minutes on average.
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Too many people look at games as "just games" and subsequently offer rather lame opinions like "omg new bast is so kewl k thx". Sorry, but it's not. If I wanted your opinion, I'd give it to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you need to elaborate on this, or at least tell me what the hell you're talking about.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why not just look at bast as if it were some type of real situation. Aliens have invaded an industrial complex... marines have deployed base camp and need to flush them out. SO WHOOPIE DOO.. THERE'S AN ELEVATOR THAT THE ONOS HAVE TO DEAL WITH. Big flippin' deal.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its a multiplayer game with real people, not an sp game experience where you can happily rampage through ai-controlled aliens in a cool environment. unfair != fun.