NEO_PhyteWe need shirtgons!Join Date: 2003-12-16Member: 24453Members, Constellation
edited February 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Feb 1 2005, 05:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Feb 1 2005, 05:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wanna hear a funny joke? Necrosis got a forum title because one of the dev team members thought he was a super voice of reason, clarity and intelligence. Sigh, what a sad world. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ive got a better one. Forlorn got bant because he was a belittling, flamey, elitist bunghole. funny, isnt it
:edit: errr, i dont actually know the when/where/why, but i may be right nonetheless
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I for one would rather have maps with personality and a bit of character, as opposed to cookie cutter DM or TFC tripe where there's no choke points, no "easy" or "hard" rooms. Please take care to note this is not a slur on your maps, both Mendasp and Ben. They're good maps, and as I keep saying about new Bast, its a BETTER map but its not the Bast I used to play. I am instead making a slur on cookie cutter creation which I believe is the inevitable result of pandering to any one demographic and looking for "pure balance" to its inevitable conclusion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im not exactly sure what you mean by cookie cutter creations. Do you mean maps like Veil? With almost symetrical layouts and uniform construction?
I dont think the difference 'demographics' are divided by their favorite maps. Generally, the most popular maps in pubs are also the most played league maps. You dont have to be a hardcore clanner to appreciate a well balanced map.
Symmetrical layouts are boring deathmatch fare. NS has a bit of character, the game itself is about two wildly differing sides, I think it should be reflected in the mapping.
About Veil.... I don't really consider Veil to be symmetrical. Some of the rooms are, but thats just the rooms. The map itself has a lot of variation, some key areas, some less important areas, one wide open hive, and two comparatively easier to defend hives. Its got character.
Veil is actually a good example because changes HAVE been made to it but without compromising the essence of the map. MS had a fairly radical overhaul but the map itself is still recognisable.
Bast, as it stands, is very different in a significant area of the map. How will it look in the new beta? And after that? Is it even going to be Bast anymore, or just a reimagined map? People need to understand that each map has its own character and flow, it encourages certain strats and denies others. Thats what keeps the challenge of NS going, as opposed to "ok aliens defend this fort. Marines, you defend the other fort". Maps should be individual, with some bits less favourable for each team. If you consider Lost, it demands marine aggression in order to counter a relatively closed-in map which is a playground for ambushing skulks. Veil's marine start is wide open, and can be ripped apart by lerks/fades, which means you need to establish a good perimeter, or relocate.
Some see those as bugs or quirks to be fixed, in order to make things "fair", I just see them as terrain challenges.
I speak from my tabletop gaming experience spanning 2 decades, so I know what makes a map memorable and tricky as opposed to dull and forgettable. Dull maps, dull games. I believe all of the official maps have their little quirks and individual flow, which is excellent... but its worrying if maps are reworked for "balance" because it will lead to the dreaded cookie cutter.
Nad, could you grow up and stop going for postcount ++ in threads with my name in them. If you're that bitter about a custom title, ask for one. Failing that, just spam flames. That'll boost your postcount AND get you the custom title BANNED. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->About Veil.... I don't really consider Veil to be symmetrical<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then which maps DO you consider to be symetrical or 'cookie cutter' creations? I need examples to understand where your comming from.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you consider Lost, it demands marine aggression in order to counter a relatively closed-in map which is a playground for ambushing skulks. Veil's marine start is wide open, and can be ripped apart by lerks/fades, which means you need to establish a good perimeter, or relocate.
Some see those as bugs or quirks to be fixed, in order to make things "fair", I just see them as terrain challenges.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those are bad examples because people dont complain about those things.
The things i see people complaining about is when the starting hive has a huge effect on the outcome of the game, for example, Cargo vs Powersilo hives on ns_nothing. Do i need to explain why its 10x harder to hold res nodes from powersilo than it is from cargo.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Jan 29 2005, 11:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Jan 29 2005, 11:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Imagine being a mapper with two official maps in NS. Now imagine you maintain bast, that sure would funny, eh? You would have to waste a number of hours of your free time maintaining a map that gets this kind of comments:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bast sucks bigass =)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I vote for the bringing back of 2.01 bast<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Refinery is HUGE and the other two are micro rooms. I don't really know how to fix it but my suggestion would be a build on 2.01 version and not a redo like 3.0 has done.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Balance = BS. The bad thing about the old bast was it was hard for a higher lifeform to successfully enter MS and leave alive. This new version is like a CO map but with RT and 3 hives. Plus I loved the old challenge, you had to worry about marines comming through the vents like roaches. There were SO many ways to attack a hive... now its down to like 2... add in with how short a time for a marine to get to a hive... and OMG Ref is now almost as big as the whole map! its disapointing...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll say well-done to the redesigner on his design work, it's high quality map making. But it's not Bast.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You know when Child Services takes a kid away from a family for abuse...? Well, you're the parents <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was always a real fan of Bast - for the atmosphere, more than the 'balence' of it - (and I always felt it was marine biased, anyway). However, the new one justlacksthe feel. My big complain is the way engine hasbeen redone - moving it at 90 degrees to the entaracne, seperating it from main aft and so on. Also, losing the sneaky vent way in is kinda disappointing. The box room also annoys me a lot. The wholepoiunt of bast was its variety and uniqueness. A room full of crates doesnt fit. At all.
So, in summary. Nice job guys, but what was so horribly wrong with the beta 4 bast?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's nice changes. But it's not bast any longer.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's not really bast, the entire layout was scrapped. 50% of the map remains unchanged.
How the hell is this the same map by any logical standards? Not that I dislike the new bast over the old one (both suck) but I do think the old bast so far was more fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->move the map into the recycle bin<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a selection of some of the "feedback" I've received since beta 5 was released... There's a good number of quotes from a thread I made and was supposed to be dedicated for serious feedback, but for some reason, <span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>
I've read some funny things about sava too, I know there's a good number of intelligent individuals that are totally awesome balancing maps by making simple changes like: "LOL DELETE MAP" or "REMOVE FROM MAPCYCLE".
Anyways, I'll quote myself to say this:
<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Jan 29 2005, 04:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Jan 29 2005, 04:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and if you're wondering, I'm not going to quit maintaining bast (or the community, for that matter) after all the work I've put on this, people like you are ignored, but I enjoy replying to your awesome rants about a map. The only way for me to stop maintaining this map is Relic coming around and wanting to do the work himself (which is improbable) or if Flayra decides to remove the map from the modification...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So there you go, here's a special version of bast for you guys!
PS: I appreciate the REAL feedback (and support) I received from several people, thanks, guys. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Take everything on the internet with a grain of salt.
Also the players making the comments, are they competent? Or are they the kind of player that cries BS and blames everyone on his team for dying.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also the players making the comments, are they competent? Or are they the kind of player that cries BS and blames everyone on his team for dying. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They aren't "making comments" they are trolling. Plain and simple.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Some of the comments were true though, which if follwed by a discussion is not trolling actually.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, look to TFC for a grim vision of "balance".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't see it as a grim vision, it's a different game where the teams are perfectly balanced. In this way you can make maps that are perfectly balanced.
NS is a whole different story because of how different the two teams are. You have to take into account so much:
<b>The Team Units:</b> <i>Attacks</i> - different attack styles (different 'weapons') - different attack ranges - support attacks (umbra, stomp, catalyst) <i>Movement</i> - different mobility (unit size) - different speed (skulk vs marine) - different movement type (ground-based {gorge, onos, Marine}, gravity-negating ground-based {skulk}, temp flight {blink}, sustained flight {JP or Lerk}
<b>The Team Structures:</b> - Defenses (OC or Turret) - Offenses (siege cannon) - Command Structures (the Hive vs the CC - think sizes) - Upgrade Structures (too long and complicated a list) - Structure-aided movement (PG, MC, Beacon) - and much, much more
In short, it is nigh-on impossible to 'balance' these differences. It is fairly obvious that certain elements of gameplay must follow certain rules in terms of 'balance' (the Hive locations, Marine Start, relocation points, siege 'rooms') but imo a mapper should only remove the extreme bias from his map and never try to force 'balance' on his creation. The latter will, in my opinion, detract from a map's <i>character</i> and to take this one step further, the overall appeal of a map.
UKchaos, for symmetrical maps you only really need to look into TFC, UT, and Quake mapping. Standard mindless DM fare.
As I only play official maps, and no official map is heavily cookie cutter, I look to other games for examples. I can see some NS maps that are heading that way tho... co_core, co_faceoff, ns_caged...
Lost is really pretty borderline, fundamentally its a big square, but its small and tight and really thats what its character and pace are.
Starting hive might suck, but thats what minor tweaking is for. Engine room wasn't the easiest to rush since the aliens just had to cover the door and then bounce into MS in order to give the marines a scare. You could fill the door area with more than enough lame to seriously stall any marine rush. Even a shotgun rush would have problems getting through without getting cut up. The only worry was a sneaky corner siege or dedicated push coming up from refinery. Nowadays you can just bail right through.
Nad, grow up and join the ranks of mature adults, thanks.
Crispy - I find TFC to be horribly horribly dull because the gameplay is so same-y. Its the worst sort of balance you can hope for. Yes, its fun for a blast and to do rocket jump assists with scouts, but at the same time urrrrrrrrrrrrrg its devoid of character.
I agree with you totally on your balance comments - sucking character and pace out in order to achieve some false sort of balance.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Feb 3 2005, 02:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Feb 3 2005, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> UKchaos, for symmetrical maps you only really need to look into TFC, UT, and Quake mapping. Standard mindless DM fare. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I love it! Calling DM mindless is pretty sad and really shows you have <b>NO IDEA</b> what you're talking about.
<!--QuoteBegin-Jane+Feb 2 2005, 02:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jane @ Feb 2 2005, 02:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Feb 1 2005, 08:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Feb 1 2005, 08:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think this thread is serving any purpose now.
I'm the first one who wanted to avoid all this trouble... in fact... BEN DELETED THE DOOR AND MADE CRATE-LAND! BLAME HIM!
/me runs <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> well Ben started this mess, but you could have stopped it! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So could you! By providing useful comment or actually willing to learn to map before you start saying stuff.
Necrosis... honestly.... WTH are you talking about?
I'm trying to understand your point of view, so let's break this down a bit, what parts of bast have been changed that have detracted from its character (let's try to exclude the door for this one <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> UKchaos, for symmetrical maps you only really need to look into TFC, UT, and Quake mapping. Standard mindless DM fare.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, see i thought you were talking about NS maps *confused*.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Crispy - I find TFC to be horribly horribly dull because the gameplay is so same-y. Its the worst sort of balance you can hope for. Yes, its fun for a blast and to do rocket jump assists with scouts, but at the same time urrrrrrrrrrrrrg its devoid of character.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, i think TFC has tons of variety. For a start, most of the maps are a unique game mode in of themselves.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Feb 3 2005, 02:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Feb 3 2005, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As I only play official maps, and no official map is heavily cookie cutter, I look to other games for examples. I can see some NS maps that are heading that way tho... co_core, co_faceoff, ns_caged... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd be interested to hear why these maps are considered 'cookie cutter', as I'm assuming that's what you meant by that sentence. I'll offer one argument for why ns_caged is not 'cookie cutter', which is apparently synonymous with 'symmetrical'. Be forewarned, I'm a pubber and have never bothered to look into competitive strategies on ns_caged. So expect me to not have thought of everything.
My experience of pubbing on ns_caged tells me that it does not have symmetrical gameplay, in large part due to the weldable walls that block the marines from a quick entry into the Ventilation hive. (again, pubbing. I just don't see them welded open during the early game.) As a result, gameplay definitely varies according to which hive the aliens start in. So there you have it, the quick 'n dirty asymmetrical argument.
Granted, if you play <i>any</i> ns_* or co_* map long enough, you get accustomed to the gameplay feel of the map, and it may end up feeling repetitive or 'cookie cutter'.
<!--QuoteBegin-Jezpuh+Feb 3 2005, 05:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jezpuh @ Feb 3 2005, 05:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Jane+Feb 2 2005, 02:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jane @ Feb 2 2005, 02:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Feb 1 2005, 08:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Feb 1 2005, 08:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think this thread is serving any purpose now.
I'm the first one who wanted to avoid all this trouble... in fact... BEN DELETED THE DOOR AND MADE CRATE-LAND! BLAME HIM!
/me runs <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> well Ben started this mess, but you could have stopped it! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So could you! By providing useful comment or actually willing to learn to map before you start saying stuff. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I might not know how to map, but I at least have common sense. Many mappers take great maps and then ruin them for little to no purpose, boredom maybe? Since I never really liked bast in the first place, I am not meaning this map, but there are others.
<!--QuoteBegin-UKchaos+Feb 4 2005, 12:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UKchaos @ Feb 4 2005, 12:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I disagree, i think TFC has tons of variety. For a start, most of the maps are a unique game mode in of themselves. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I completely agree.
The stand point of TFC stems from when a certain person began their HL life.
Having moved from Quake DM - Quake TF - HLDM - TFC I personally love the mod, it has unspoken rules, that most people follow, and people don't really mind the ones who don't follow them (in the most part).
It has CTF, hunted, take the enemy base - then switch, and zonal domination, it is a very versatile mod.
Why would a scout need to have a rocket jump assist?!
Anyway, imo NS maps NEED to change often, with every release i mean, as there is so few of them, people get to know every single corner of them, and begin to get the "fed up" feeling. This is a strange mod for me, in that MANY good custommaps are not played on the servers... or leagues for that matter, the publics tend to play the crap bottom of the barrel maps (I wont name them) "FUN" maps they call them?!... hardly fun.
More variety = Less fed up long term players. Which in theory would keep them keen on the game.
What has been done to bast is fantastic, its not lost any character, it just flows better. Imagine what we'd be like if we still played 1.0's bast.... bored springs to mind, would be like playing 24/7 on a 2Fort 24/7 server, if none of the maps changed.
P.S - Yes I never have played CS and only started playing DoD 4 days ago, cause I wanted a change of scenery... HLDM -> TFC -> NS... natural progression! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
urinalcakeCan't work a sound cardUnited StatesJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7799Members
Wow, simply wow. This thread almost serves no purpose anymore. Even if it doesnt seem like your bickering or arguing, nothing constructive is coming out of this. People like the way the old map was because they associate it to when the community was sprawling and when the days were 'good.' But maps change.
If i had the ability to use red letters, and say that this was locked, i would. But in all honesty, congratulations to ALL the map makers for making maps that we can all enjoy FREELY. Especially to the makers of bast, even if it and other maps come under constant fire all the time.
<!--QuoteBegin-urinalcake+Feb 4 2005, 05:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (urinalcake @ Feb 4 2005, 05:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow, simply wow. This thread almost serves no purpose anymore. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lol, I know, in fact, I think I said this in page 8 or something, and there's a mirror in... some page... can't remember now.
We should either let this thread die, or I should ask a mod to lock it... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Why do people want to lock threads that they no long care about?
Its like a CS player wanting NS to die because they dont like playing it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If all threads had to have a constructive purpose, why was this one even started?
<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Feb 4 2005, 04:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Feb 4 2005, 04:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-urinalcake+Feb 4 2005, 05:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (urinalcake @ Feb 4 2005, 05:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow, simply wow. This thread almost serves no purpose anymore. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> lol, I know, in fact, I think I said this in page 8 or something, and there's a mirror in... some page... can't remember now.
We should either let this thread die, or I should ask a mod to lock it... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> When jokes go bad! Part 3.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Calling DM mindless is pretty sad and really shows you have NO IDEA what you're talking about. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Compared to coordinated teamplay with a set commander, DM <b>is</b> mindless. Braindead pathfollowing and fragging, well woop de doo. Like none of us have never seen that before. If you find DM more thought provoking than trying to hold together a team of nubs then you clearly aren't playing enough.
Alkiller - In terms of flow and character, well over a 1/4 of the map. I do not consider it just 1/4, as the changes made have altered the importance of other map areas. Engine hive has been heavily affected by the changes, that whole area plays nothing like the original bast. Its a straight run from MS to engine hive, so if anything its harder to defend than before. Adding a straight run from Engine to Ref which bypasses main aft has made it much easier to simply rush from one hive to the other. Its begging for a two hive lockdown with no pauses.
In Bast, you could monopolise main aft and use it to stumble any progression between Engine and Ref, it was a good way of cutting the map in two and slowing down any fast rushes. In the new map you can basically ignore it and run cheerfully between them. This doesnt help considering both hives are easy to get into and harder to dislodge marines from.
Bast was a map where you needed to bunch up because there were few routes running from point A to point B. It made for very enjoyable play as you couldn't really avoid action. Ref was a wide open hive but Engine and Feed were easier to keep a hold of. I think most players would just have called for a few more vertical cylinders to clog up the ref ceiling and make it less a JP heaven.
The new map doesnt really have any points that are as vital to hold, and because everywhere is easy to get to, you end up with a lot of ramboing and individual play. Fighting is more spread out and it gets more like most other NS maps where each hive is just as easy to get to as the other.
So while AS I KEEP STATING new Bast is more "balanced", its lost the character and pace of play which made it Bast. Important areas are no longer important, fighting is more spread out, teamplay is not as guaranteed as it used to be. So I find it a poorer map in that respect.
TFC is the peak of symmetrical mapping. The nearest OFFICIAL NS MAP equivalent is the state of affairs where all hives are just as easy to get to, with no familiar hotspots (other than the dreaded Double Node). If you note, I said I only play official maps and on official maps the cookie cutter effect is less of a problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why can't we have both? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why can't we have both? Thats what I want to know too. I think in part its because a fair and balanced map is anathema to character. If its all the same and there's no quirks, then there's no character. If there are important areas, better places to relocate to, better hives, then a map gets a bit more individual.
Ben may well be on to something when he says character is defined by poor gameplay. I don't believe its "poor gameplay", but perhaps a better word would be weighted.
Skeletor!
If you notice where you quoted me, I said no NS map is there yet but several are HEADING THAT WAY. Caged is not symmetrical, at least not till the welding kicks in. Thankfully Caged is big enough so that most things are not a straight run from A-B. What Caged DOES have is a layout where things are almost equidistant, in a large square, with Double Node slapped in the middle. Caged is not in itself a bad map, but in terms of layout its pretty formulaic.
Bast is heading that way. The new version has changed a large section of the map and irreparably changed the map flow. What will the new changes do?
I dont think its about hearkening back to "better times", its more about the complete change of play on the map, rather than fixing the odd bug (such as making Ref hive a bit more viable).
Comments
I'm the first one who wanted to avoid all this trouble... in fact... BEN DELETED THE DOOR AND MADE CRATE-LAND! BLAME HIM!
/me runs <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
well Ben started this mess, but you could have stopped it!
ive got a better one.
Forlorn got bant because he was a belittling, flamey, elitist bunghole.
funny, isnt it
:edit: errr, i dont actually know the when/where/why, but i may be right nonetheless
Im not exactly sure what you mean by cookie cutter creations. Do you mean maps like Veil? With almost symetrical layouts and uniform construction?
I dont think the difference 'demographics' are divided by their favorite maps. Generally, the most popular maps in pubs are also the most played league maps. You dont have to be a hardcore clanner to appreciate a well balanced map.
About Veil.... I don't really consider Veil to be symmetrical. Some of the rooms are, but thats just the rooms. The map itself has a lot of variation, some key areas, some less important areas, one wide open hive, and two comparatively easier to defend hives. Its got character.
Veil is actually a good example because changes HAVE been made to it but without compromising the essence of the map. MS had a fairly radical overhaul but the map itself is still recognisable.
Bast, as it stands, is very different in a significant area of the map. How will it look in the new beta? And after that? Is it even going to be Bast anymore, or just a reimagined map? People need to understand that each map has its own character and flow, it encourages certain strats and denies others. Thats what keeps the challenge of NS going, as opposed to "ok aliens defend this fort. Marines, you defend the other fort". Maps should be individual, with some bits less favourable for each team. If you consider Lost, it demands marine aggression in order to counter a relatively closed-in map which is a playground for ambushing skulks. Veil's marine start is wide open, and can be ripped apart by lerks/fades, which means you need to establish a good perimeter, or relocate.
Some see those as bugs or quirks to be fixed, in order to make things "fair", I just see them as terrain challenges.
I speak from my tabletop gaming experience spanning 2 decades, so I know what makes a map memorable and tricky as opposed to dull and forgettable. Dull maps, dull games. I believe all of the official maps have their little quirks and individual flow, which is excellent... but its worrying if maps are reworked for "balance" because it will lead to the dreaded cookie cutter.
Nad, could you grow up and stop going for postcount ++ in threads with my name in them. If you're that bitter about a custom title, ask for one. Failing that, just spam flames. That'll boost your postcount AND get you the custom title BANNED.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Then which maps DO you consider to be symetrical or 'cookie cutter' creations? I need examples to understand where your comming from.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you consider Lost, it demands marine aggression in order to counter a relatively closed-in map which is a playground for ambushing skulks. Veil's marine start is wide open, and can be ripped apart by lerks/fades, which means you need to establish a good perimeter, or relocate.
Some see those as bugs or quirks to be fixed, in order to make things "fair", I just see them as terrain challenges.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those are bad examples because people dont complain about those things.
The things i see people complaining about is when the starting hive has a huge effect on the outcome of the game, for example, Cargo vs Powersilo hives on ns_nothing. Do i need to explain why its 10x harder to hold res nodes from powersilo than it is from cargo.
and I couldn't care less about my post count. Really.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bast sucks bigass =)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I vote for the bringing back of 2.01 bast<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Refinery is HUGE and the other two are micro rooms. I don't really know how to fix it but my suggestion would be a build on 2.01 version and not a redo like 3.0 has done.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Balance = BS. The bad thing about the old bast was it was hard for a higher lifeform to successfully enter MS and leave alive. This new version is like a CO map but with RT and 3 hives. Plus I loved the old challenge, you had to worry about marines comming through the vents like roaches. There were SO many ways to attack a hive... now its down to like 2... add in with how short a time for a marine to get to a hive... and OMG Ref is now almost as big as the whole map! its disapointing...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll say well-done to the redesigner on his design work, it's high quality map making. But it's not Bast.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You know when Child Services takes a kid away from a family for abuse...? Well, you're the parents <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was always a real fan of Bast - for the atmosphere, more than the 'balence' of it - (and I always felt it was marine biased, anyway). However, the new one justlacksthe feel. My big complain is the way engine hasbeen redone - moving it at 90 degrees to the entaracne, seperating it from main aft and so on. Also, losing the sneaky vent way in is kinda disappointing. The box room also annoys me a lot. The wholepoiunt of bast was its variety and uniqueness. A room full of crates doesnt fit. At all.
So, in summary. Nice job guys, but what was so horribly wrong with the beta 4 bast?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's nice changes. But it's not bast any longer.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's not really bast, the entire layout was scrapped. 50% of the map remains unchanged.
How the hell is this the same map by any logical standards? Not that I dislike the new bast over the old one (both suck) but I do think the old bast so far was more fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->move the map into the recycle bin<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a selection of some of the "feedback" I've received since beta 5 was released... There's a good number of quotes from a thread I made and was supposed to be dedicated for serious feedback, but for some reason, <span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>
I've read some funny things about sava too, I know there's a good number of intelligent individuals that are totally awesome balancing maps by making simple changes like: "LOL DELETE MAP" or "REMOVE FROM MAPCYCLE".
Anyways, I'll quote myself to say this:
<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Jan 29 2005, 04:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Jan 29 2005, 04:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and if you're wondering, I'm not going to quit maintaining bast (or the community, for that matter) after all the work I've put on this, people like you are ignored, but I enjoy replying to your awesome rants about a map. The only way for me to stop maintaining this map is Relic coming around and wanting to do the work himself (which is improbable) or if Flayra decides to remove the map from the modification...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So there you go, here's a special version of bast for you guys!
<a href='http://mendasp.thezazi.net/mapas/ns_bast_classic.zip' target='_blank'>Download link</a>
PS: I appreciate the REAL feedback (and support) I received from several people, thanks, guys. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Take everything on the internet with a grain of salt.
Also the players making the comments, are they competent? Or are they the kind of player that cries BS and blames everyone on his team for dying.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They aren't "making comments" they are trolling. Plain and simple.
p.s. lol at the make things perfectly balanced and all you need is skill, that is cute.
Yup, but not out of the examples quoted.
NS is a whole different story because of how different the two teams are. You have to take into account so much:
<b>The Team Units:</b>
<i>Attacks</i>
- different attack styles (different 'weapons')
- different attack ranges
- support attacks (umbra, stomp, catalyst)
<i>Movement</i>
- different mobility (unit size)
- different speed (skulk vs marine)
- different movement type (ground-based {gorge, onos, Marine}, gravity-negating ground-based {skulk}, temp flight {blink}, sustained flight {JP or Lerk}
<b>The Team Structures:</b>
- Defenses (OC or Turret)
- Offenses (siege cannon)
- Command Structures (the Hive vs the CC - think sizes)
- Upgrade Structures (too long and complicated a list)
- Structure-aided movement (PG, MC, Beacon)
- and much, much more
In short, it is nigh-on impossible to 'balance' these differences. It is fairly obvious that certain elements of gameplay must follow certain rules in terms of 'balance' (the Hive locations, Marine Start, relocation points, siege 'rooms') but imo a mapper should only remove the extreme bias from his map and never try to force 'balance' on his creation. The latter will, in my opinion, detract from a map's <i>character</i> and to take this one step further, the overall appeal of a map.
As I only play official maps, and no official map is heavily cookie cutter, I look to other games for examples. I can see some NS maps that are heading that way tho... co_core, co_faceoff, ns_caged...
Lost is really pretty borderline, fundamentally its a big square, but its small and tight and really thats what its character and pace are.
Starting hive might suck, but thats what minor tweaking is for. Engine room wasn't the easiest to rush since the aliens just had to cover the door and then bounce into MS in order to give the marines a scare. You could fill the door area with more than enough lame to seriously stall any marine rush. Even a shotgun rush would have problems getting through without getting cut up. The only worry was a sneaky corner siege or dedicated push coming up from refinery. Nowadays you can just bail right through.
Nad, grow up and join the ranks of mature adults, thanks.
Crispy - I find TFC to be horribly horribly dull because the gameplay is so same-y. Its the worst sort of balance you can hope for. Yes, its fun for a blast and to do rocket jump assists with scouts, but at the same time urrrrrrrrrrrrrg its devoid of character.
I agree with you totally on your balance comments - sucking character and pace out in order to achieve some false sort of balance.
I love it! Calling DM mindless is pretty sad and really shows you have <b>NO IDEA</b> what you're talking about.
I'm the first one who wanted to avoid all this trouble... in fact... BEN DELETED THE DOOR AND MADE CRATE-LAND! BLAME HIM!
/me runs <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well Ben started this mess, but you could have stopped it! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So could you! By providing useful comment or actually willing to learn to map before you start saying stuff.
I'm trying to understand your point of view, so let's break this down a bit, what parts of bast have been changed that have detracted from its character (let's try to exclude the door for this one <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )?
Right, see i thought you were talking about NS maps *confused*.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Crispy - I find TFC to be horribly horribly dull because the gameplay is so same-y. Its the worst sort of balance you can hope for. Yes, its fun for a blast and to do rocket jump assists with scouts, but at the same time urrrrrrrrrrrrrg its devoid of character.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, i think TFC has tons of variety. For a start, most of the maps are a unique game mode in of themselves.
I'd be interested to hear why these maps are considered 'cookie cutter', as I'm assuming that's what you meant by that sentence. I'll offer one argument for why ns_caged is not 'cookie cutter', which is apparently synonymous with 'symmetrical'. Be forewarned, I'm a pubber and have never bothered to look into competitive strategies on ns_caged. So expect me to not have thought of everything.
My experience of pubbing on ns_caged tells me that it does not have symmetrical gameplay, in large part due to the weldable walls that block the marines from a quick entry into the Ventilation hive. (again, pubbing. I just don't see them welded open during the early game.) As a result, gameplay definitely varies according to which hive the aliens start in. So there you have it, the quick 'n dirty asymmetrical argument.
Granted, if you play <i>any</i> ns_* or co_* map long enough, you get accustomed to the gameplay feel of the map, and it may end up feeling repetitive or 'cookie cutter'.
I'm the first one who wanted to avoid all this trouble... in fact... BEN DELETED THE DOOR AND MADE CRATE-LAND! BLAME HIM!
/me runs <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well Ben started this mess, but you could have stopped it! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So could you! By providing useful comment or actually willing to learn to map before you start saying stuff. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I might not know how to map, but I at least have common sense. Many mappers take great maps and then ruin them for little to no purpose, boredom maybe? Since I never really liked bast in the first place, I am not meaning this map, but there are others.
I completely agree.
The stand point of TFC stems from when a certain person began their HL life.
Having moved from Quake DM - Quake TF - HLDM - TFC I personally love the mod, it has unspoken rules, that most people follow, and people don't really mind the ones who don't follow them (in the most part).
It has CTF, hunted, take the enemy base - then switch, and zonal domination, it is a very versatile mod.
Why would a scout need to have a rocket jump assist?!
Anyway, imo NS maps NEED to change often, with every release i mean, as there is so few of them, people get to know every single corner of them, and begin to get the "fed up" feeling. This is a strange mod for me, in that MANY good custommaps are not played on the servers... or leagues for that matter, the publics tend to play the crap bottom of the barrel maps (I wont name them) "FUN" maps they call them?!... hardly fun.
More variety = Less fed up long term players. Which in theory would keep them keen on the game.
What has been done to bast is fantastic, its not lost any character, it just flows better. Imagine what we'd be like if we still played 1.0's bast.... bored springs to mind, would be like playing 24/7 on a 2Fort 24/7 server, if none of the maps changed.
P.S - Yes I never have played CS and only started playing DoD 4 days ago, cause I wanted a change of scenery... HLDM -> TFC -> NS... natural progression! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This thread almost serves no purpose anymore. Even if it doesnt seem like your bickering or arguing, nothing constructive is coming out of this.
People like the way the old map was because they associate it to when the community was sprawling and when the days were 'good.' But maps change.
If i had the ability to use red letters, and say that this was locked, i would.
But in all honesty, congratulations to ALL the map makers for making maps that we can all enjoy FREELY. Especially to the makers of bast, even if it and other maps come under constant fire all the time.
This thread almost serves no purpose anymore. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol, I know, in fact, I think I said this in page 8 or something, and there's a mirror in... some page... can't remember now.
We should either let this thread die, or I should ask a mod to lock it... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Its like a CS player wanting NS to die because they dont like playing it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If all threads had to have a constructive purpose, why was this one even started?
This thread almost serves no purpose anymore. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol, I know, in fact, I think I said this in page 8 or something, and there's a mirror in... some page... can't remember now.
We should either let this thread die, or I should ask a mod to lock it... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
When jokes go bad! Part 3.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Calling DM mindless is pretty sad and really shows you have NO IDEA what you're talking about.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Compared to coordinated teamplay with a set commander, DM <b>is</b> mindless. Braindead pathfollowing and fragging, well woop de doo. Like none of us have never seen that before. If you find DM more thought provoking than trying to hold together a team of nubs then you clearly aren't playing enough.
Alkiller - In terms of flow and character, well over a 1/4 of the map. I do not consider it just 1/4, as the changes made have altered the importance of other map areas. Engine hive has been heavily affected by the changes, that whole area plays nothing like the original bast. Its a straight run from MS to engine hive, so if anything its harder to defend than before. Adding a straight run from Engine to Ref which bypasses main aft has made it much easier to simply rush from one hive to the other. Its begging for a two hive lockdown with no pauses.
In Bast, you could monopolise main aft and use it to stumble any progression between Engine and Ref, it was a good way of cutting the map in two and slowing down any fast rushes. In the new map you can basically ignore it and run cheerfully between them. This doesnt help considering both hives are easy to get into and harder to dislodge marines from.
Bast was a map where you needed to bunch up because there were few routes running from point A to point B. It made for very enjoyable play as you couldn't really avoid action. Ref was a wide open hive but Engine and Feed were easier to keep a hold of. I think most players would just have called for a few more vertical cylinders to clog up the ref ceiling and make it less a JP heaven.
The new map doesnt really have any points that are as vital to hold, and because everywhere is easy to get to, you end up with a lot of ramboing and individual play. Fighting is more spread out and it gets more like most other NS maps where each hive is just as easy to get to as the other.
So while AS I KEEP STATING new Bast is more "balanced", its lost the character and pace of play which made it Bast. Important areas are no longer important, fighting is more spread out, teamplay is not as guaranteed as it used to be. So I find it a poorer map in that respect.
TFC is the peak of symmetrical mapping. The nearest OFFICIAL NS MAP equivalent is the state of affairs where all hives are just as easy to get to, with no familiar hotspots (other than the dreaded Double Node). If you note, I said I only play official maps and on official maps the cookie cutter effect is less of a problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Why can't we have both?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why can't we have both? Thats what I want to know too. I think in part its because a fair and balanced map is anathema to character. If its all the same and there's no quirks, then there's no character. If there are important areas, better places to relocate to, better hives, then a map gets a bit more individual.
Ben may well be on to something when he says character is defined by poor gameplay. I don't believe its "poor gameplay", but perhaps a better word would be weighted.
Skeletor!
If you notice where you quoted me, I said no NS map is there yet but several are HEADING THAT WAY. Caged is not symmetrical, at least not till the welding kicks in. Thankfully Caged is big enough so that most things are not a straight run from A-B. What Caged DOES have is a layout where things are almost equidistant, in a large square, with Double Node slapped in the middle. Caged is not in itself a bad map, but in terms of layout its pretty formulaic.
Bast is heading that way. The new version has changed a large section of the map and irreparably changed the map flow. What will the new changes do?
I dont think its about hearkening back to "better times", its more about the complete change of play on the map, rather than fixing the odd bug (such as making Ref hive a bit more viable).