<!--QuoteBegin-Mr Obvious+Nov 20 2004, 08:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr Obvious @ Nov 20 2004, 08:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hmmm normally i just lerk in forums but i have become fairly interested in the latest changelogs
According to the main source of opposition to the seiges, he I beleive <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=85218&view=findpost&p=1328569' target='_blank'>that</a> he said the fades would keep teh marines outside of the hive, making your entire example irrellevent
After all the seiges would only fire upon being scanned
Most of the games I've been in the typical amount of obs is 2
So u shuld try killing the hive and all of that shizz with only 2 obs, I bet u could be at full enrgy with the obs and still the hive wuld not go down if 2 gorges + adren ^grade
come on guys if you are going to say this
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, so we have everybody speculating and telling each other what they think, but here are some facts. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but you come way short very disappointing I want sum closure on these changes <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Like I said, this isn't everything and it's just the basics. I could've done it more elaborate, but that right there already took somewhere to 90 minutes and I just don't feel it's worth it to get a full picture when this is enough. As for your fade argument..dude, if you have fades keeping the marines out of your hive in B5, it's the exact same thing. Scanning alone will not be enough, you have to get in there. If skilled aliens can keep you out, you deserve to lose.
And uh guys, as for infinite scan, it's a bug. Bugs get fixed. Never knew that?
Negatory, in B5 Fades get hit by sieges - and if not killed, their hive-heal advantage is still lowered. In B6 noone gets hit by sieges, so you're gonna deal with a full-efficiency Lerk and 1-2 Fades. You have to be smoking something telling people Fades under active Hives are easy pickings, or "deserve to win" if they can hold off marines. Its hilariously easy to win vs 5 marines with 2 fades and a lerk, if they have to push in - the odds are already in their favor NEAR the hive, in it is even worse. And this scenario leaves 3 people on the alien team to either heal the hive or eat nodes, at any odd split.
Who said anything about under the hive? If you're already fighting fades in the actual hiveroom, sieges will be hitting and thus meaning you're not entirely dependent on scan anymore.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wither+Nov 20 2004, 02:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wither @ Nov 20 2004, 02:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Who said anything about under the hive? If you're already fighting fades in the actual hiveroom, sieges will be hitting and thus meaning you're not entirely dependent on scan anymore. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ya but if u go in teh hive room then the fades kill the marines and then the seige outpost fails
not to mention if they had wepaons and stuff they lose all of their moneies
so without seige damage keeping rines out will be even easier
<!--QuoteBegin-Mr Obvious+Nov 20 2004, 10:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr Obvious @ Nov 20 2004, 10:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ya but if u go in teh hive room then the fades kill the marines and then the seige outpost fails
not to mention if they had wepaons and stuff they lose all of their moneies
so without seige damage keeping rines out will be even easier
sounds like it wud be vry alien biased sorry <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess aliens will totally rule marines then. Beta 6 will be a failure <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Sigh.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cheez!+Nov 21 2004, 02:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cheez! @ Nov 21 2004, 02:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ever had a game with FF on and tried to sight a hive for a seige? Ouch.
<!--QuoteBegin-coris+Nov 19 2004, 12:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Nov 19 2004, 12:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Darten, Buggeh is one of the best lerks (if not the best?) around, so I wouldnt say that if I were you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A) Darten was the one who said that buggy was better then he was getting credit for. B) Adg also said sieges were hard on lerks, and he's the best lerk I know so that theory can now be considered fact.
[ontopic] I personally would rather see siege damage for kharra fixed rather than removed, maby to the point where it only damages with a normal explosive radius around the structure, or maby so it does fractional damage rather then the rediculously high one hit kill shots we get so often... Anyways, I don't think removal was the worst step ever, but I still don't love it compleatly.
Siege is overused nowadays anyway. The fun games i have (on either team) is when jetpack toting marines fly into the hive and blow it away (or try) with shotguns... although trying to co-ordinate the players of today to do that.. is a daunting challenge for any commander :S
This is a major change, now people will actually heal the hive when it gets seiged, and a gorge with a movement chamber can pump out a lot of healspray. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yepp one game i holded the hamasaki hive alone due the bad siege placement if you have gorge,mc and 1-2 dcs there you can keep that hive easily alive if the comm dont have 3 obs`
obuhNot Quite Smart at NSJoin Date: 2003-03-31Member: 15072Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-MEShootHere!+Jan 8 2005, 01:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MEShootHere! @ Jan 8 2005, 01:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I see this discussion and a lot of people say "sieging will not hurt players" but the changelog clearly states "will no longer hurt FRIENDLY players".
Am I missing something? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This discussion about sieges started after <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=85217' target='_blank'>this</a> announcement, if I remember correctly.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
just a note to some complains: did you never kill a hive without sieges? I saw many successfull SG rushes, JP or HA rushes on hives.
Removing siege damage from players will prevent "spawn camping" with siege fire plus nerving them a bit. And the hell i appreciate this cause they were just too powerful in every version. Pls remember: In previous changelogs, siege research time was decreased so the costs. So pls dont complain about this, i say it´s just another step to balance ns.
And, anyone of you disliked on pub games the last hive sieging? this problem is also more or less solved, when some gorges are at the hive to heal it and nearby structures.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrObvious+Jan 10 2005, 06:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrObvious @ Jan 10 2005, 06:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Worst change by far... I guarentee you will see games prolonged at the seige because the aliens aren't dying from the blasts<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It -does- mean that marines actually have to enter the hive room to finally clear it out, but that's not a bad thing in my mind. It does prolong matters a little as well... gorges can now heal the hive while it's being taken down. But it doesn't "prolong games".
A prolonged game, in my mind, are those marine last stands... they have no nodes except their home one, sometimes not even that. They're sitting by an armory with GLs and the RFKs are enough to just barely keep them alive, but NOT enough to let them come back. I'd seen games go for half an hour or longer like this... aliens often "surrender" with F4 even though they win. THAT'S prolonging the game. One side has CLEARLY won, the other side has CLEARLY lost, but the game isn't technically over yet.
Seiging like this, even FOUR gorges healing non-stop can't keep a hive up longer than 3 minutes while it's being seiged. And those gorges aren't getting RFK during this time. And every structure taken out weakens the aliens further. At the end, it's inevitable that the marines come in and kill them all.
UNLESS... unless it's a hairline edge situation. Then... things become... epic. It's POSSIBLE to ward off an invasion now. Hard, very hard, but possible. I had an hour long game earlier today... we kept having the same situation over and over again. One hive is up. We're building a second hive, and then they come to seige our first hive. We delay them JUST long enough that the 2nd hive is up before the first goes down. Since we've been FIGHTING during this time, we have the resources to put up the OTHER hive. While we do this, they come and seige the hive we have up. We went round and round in a circle like this until finally, we managed to SAVE the hive they were seiging. Then the circle repeated, except that we were fighting over the THIRD hive instead. But we were hitting resource nodes at the same time, and through attrition, we eventually won. Both teams agreed it was an, and I quote, "Awesome game".
That's the sort of thing that people keep saying they want to see back again, right? The reason some people went back to playing 1.04?
if you've never gorged or lerked in a competitive game during a hive seige then i don't believe you can fully comprehend how ridiculously retarded seige cannons have been until now...imho this will be a change for the better
p.s. O Bile Bomb's range has been increased by 15%. =)
The problem was also ridicioulus solved stand in top of structure. This made you to be in the middle of a blast meaning you dont die. Allways hated to be on the roof of cargo hive on veil and get killed by siege blast on rt....
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
personally I'm not going to comment until I get my hands on b6 and can experience standing next to the seige and not dying. Playing on a FF server I can remember lots of times when rines running into the hive spotting have been TKed by the seiges, and I can also remember watching the comm rack up 3 kills from one siege blast.
I noticed this change in the log and thought: interesting, I can't wait to see how will affect NS. It's not the most radical seige change [OMG YOU NEED TO SCAN / SIGHT A SEIGE NOW, WTH!] but it is something that was bound to happen
I remember on a FF server the siege killed 3 marines at once, and triggered the tk kick script and the com was banned for a few hours. As they all died at once got no chance to forgive.
Was rather funny for us aliens as we then quickly recovered <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->im tired of lerking and flying 50 feet away from the hive and getting randomnly seige killed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Damn right! Now if sieges damaged players close to building that would have been ok, but sometimes I get killed 20 ft away from any building.
<!--QuoteBegin-d0omie+Jan 23 2005, 11:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (d0omie @ Jan 23 2005, 11:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I remember on a FF server the siege killed 3 marines at once, and triggered the tk kick script and the com was banned for a few hours. As they all died at once got no chance to forgive.
Was rather funny for us aliens as we then quickly recovered <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh boy...that sucks rofl.
I'm totally for the siege changes. It sucks when a hive is being attacked and you die, then spawn at the same hive, and die, and spawn there again, and die...we had 3 hives and I kept spawning in the exact same place. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This while i agree is a change for the better in NS, will leave me feeling nostalgic about losing "OC Bombing", i'm sure.
(OC Bombing being dropping an OC in the middle of a siege base and letting the sieges severely damage nearby structures and players [NOTE: this only works in FF on servers])
I love this change, gives the marines something to do than defend the equipment or have a smoke while the hive goes down. Now the marines have to use the old medieval term of "Maintaining A Siege". not only will they have to defend, put also put constant pressure on the siege location without making a full assault. If the siege isn't going well, bring in more equipment or just weaken the aliens enough while having plenty of troops ready before assaulting. I think this will call for better tactics of the commander of course, but I don't see how it could possibly change the game as much as some people might think.
I think plp who dont like this change are RARLY aliens. Hoestly, do you LOVE easy games. That is not what NS is about. Plus, you talk about 5 Marines vs 2 fades and a lerk. Well, I play on NSArmslab EXCLUSIVLY and the games are NEVER small. So when marines seige, ALL marines are just sitting there gaurding the seige base. PLus, dont forget that some comms also lame the seige base with turrets and mines, so marines arent the only thing you have to worry about. Even 3 fades would have a hard time taking down the base in time to save the hive. Dont say this seige fix is alien bias. I think its more of you being bias. OH NO, i now actually have to kill the aliens instead of sitting near the seige and just shooting aliens that come at me through the hall. Suck it up and fight like a TEAM! Now I also play marines just as much as aliens so dont say im bias. I play both teams evenly and enjoy it very much. But I think its boring when we start sieging a hive and the aliens CANT fight back due to the seige kills. I love it better when they swarm all over us and we have to fight REAL HARD to keep the base BARLY alive. That is what makes great games, when you have to work very hard and long to achieve your goal. Weather you win or lose in the end doesnt matter in an epic game casue the fun you had was WELL WORTH the loses.
Comments
According to the main source of opposition to the seiges, he I beleive <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=85218&view=findpost&p=1328569' target='_blank'>that</a> he said the fades would keep teh marines outside of the hive, making your entire example irrellevent
After all the seiges would only fire upon being scanned
Most of the games I've been in the typical amount of obs is 2
So u shuld try killing the hive and all of that shizz with only 2 obs, I bet u could be at full enrgy with the obs and still the hive wuld not go down if 2 gorges + adren ^grade
come on guys if you are going to say this
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, so we have everybody speculating and telling each other what they think, but here are some facts. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but you come way short very disappointing I want sum closure on these changes <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said, this isn't everything and it's just the basics. I could've done it more elaborate, but that right there already took somewhere to 90 minutes and I just don't feel it's worth it to get a full picture when this is enough. As for your fade argument..dude, if you have fades keeping the marines out of your hive in B5, it's the exact same thing. Scanning alone will not be enough, you have to get in there. If skilled aliens can keep you out, you deserve to lose.
And uh guys, as for infinite scan, it's a bug. Bugs get fixed. Never knew that?
ya but if u go in teh hive room then the fades kill the marines and then the seige outpost fails
not to mention if they had wepaons and stuff they lose all of their moneies
so without seige damage keeping rines out will be even easier
sounds like it wud be vry alien biased sorry
not to mention if they had wepaons and stuff they lose all of their moneies
so without seige damage keeping rines out will be even easier
sounds like it wud be vry alien biased sorry <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess aliens will totally rule marines then. Beta 6 will be a failure <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Sigh.
nuff said.
nuff said. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
scan?
I was just weird standing on the hive not getting hurt, then falling 10 feet and dying by a seige...(like in fusion on tanith)
A) Darten was the one who said that buggy was better then he was getting credit for.
B) Adg also said sieges were hard on lerks, and he's the best lerk I know so that theory can now be considered fact.
[ontopic] I personally would rather see siege damage for kharra fixed rather than removed, maby to the point where it only damages with a normal explosive radius around the structure, or maby so it does fractional damage rather then the rediculously high one hit kill shots we get so often... Anyways, I don't think removal was the worst step ever, but I still don't love it compleatly.
Am I missing something?
This is a major change, now people will actually heal the hive when it gets seiged, and a gorge with a movement chamber can pump out a lot of healspray. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yepp one game i holded the hamasaki hive alone due the bad siege placement if you have gorge,mc and 1-2 dcs there you can keep that hive easily alive if the comm dont have 3 obs`
Am I missing something? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This discussion about sieges started after <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=85217' target='_blank'>this</a> announcement, if I remember correctly.
did you never kill a hive without sieges? I saw many successfull SG rushes, JP or HA rushes on hives.
Removing siege damage from players will prevent "spawn camping" with siege fire plus nerving them a bit. And the hell i appreciate this cause they were just too powerful in every version. Pls remember: In previous changelogs, siege research time was decreased so the costs. So pls dont complain about this, i say it´s just another step to balance ns.
And, anyone of you disliked on pub games the last hive sieging? this problem is also more or less solved, when some gorges are at the hive to heal it and nearby structures.
----------------------------------------------------
<!--QuoteBegin-MrObvious+Jan 10 2005, 06:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrObvious @ Jan 10 2005, 06:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Worst change by far... I guarentee you will see games prolonged at the seige because the aliens aren't dying from the blasts<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It -does- mean that marines actually have to enter the hive room to finally clear it out, but that's not a bad thing in my mind. It does prolong matters a little as well... gorges can now heal the hive while it's being taken down. But it doesn't "prolong games".
A prolonged game, in my mind, are those marine last stands... they have no nodes except their home one, sometimes not even that. They're sitting by an armory with GLs and the RFKs are enough to just barely keep them alive, but NOT enough to let them come back. I'd seen games go for half an hour or longer like this... aliens often "surrender" with F4 even though they win. THAT'S prolonging the game. One side has CLEARLY won, the other side has CLEARLY lost, but the game isn't technically over yet.
Seiging like this, even FOUR gorges healing non-stop can't keep a hive up longer than 3 minutes while it's being seiged. And those gorges aren't getting RFK during this time. And every structure taken out weakens the aliens further. At the end, it's inevitable that the marines come in and kill them all.
UNLESS... unless it's a hairline edge situation. Then... things become... epic. It's POSSIBLE to ward off an invasion now. Hard, very hard, but possible. I had an hour long game earlier today... we kept having the same situation over and over again. One hive is up. We're building a second hive, and then they come to seige our first hive. We delay them JUST long enough that the 2nd hive is up before the first goes down. Since we've been FIGHTING during this time, we have the resources to put up the OTHER hive. While we do this, they come and seige the hive we have up. We went round and round in a circle like this until finally, we managed to SAVE the hive they were seiging. Then the circle repeated, except that we were fighting over the THIRD hive instead. But we were hitting resource nodes at the same time, and through attrition, we eventually won. Both teams agreed it was an, and I quote, "Awesome game".
That's the sort of thing that people keep saying they want to see back again, right? The reason some people went back to playing 1.04?
Well looky there...
Epic games are on the rise again.
All due to this one little change.
It rocks.
p.s. O Bile Bomb's range has been increased by 15%. =)
progorge ftw
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I noticed this change in the log and thought: interesting, I can't wait to see how will affect NS. It's not the most radical seige change [OMG YOU NEED TO SCAN / SIGHT A SEIGE NOW, WTH!] but it is something that was bound to happen
Was rather funny for us aliens as we then quickly recovered <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Damn right! Now if sieges damaged players close to building that would have been ok, but sometimes I get killed 20 ft away from any building.
My fav change in the change log!
Was rather funny for us aliens as we then quickly recovered <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh boy...that sucks rofl.
I'm totally for the siege changes. It sucks when a hive is being attacked and you die, then spawn at the same hive, and die, and spawn there again, and die...we had 3 hives and I kept spawning in the exact same place. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(OC Bombing being dropping an OC in the middle of a siege base and letting the sieges severely damage nearby structures and players [NOTE: this only works in FF on servers])