It's funny how these polls where a huge majority votes for gets ignored. This and the unchained chambers poll. Compare to the lerk bite vs spike poll, where the difference was like 2%. That got implemented.
I think the simple fact that this was polled was because there is an interest. Altough it might not be the current Devs priority, they will probably look into this farther down the road. Making a game is a long in torough process, especially when you're not getting payed for it. I'm sure not even constellation payed back all that it costed the dev team.
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Oct 16 2004, 04:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Oct 16 2004, 04:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's funny how these polls where a huge majority votes for gets ignored. This and the unchained chambers poll. Compare to the lerk bite vs spike poll, where the difference was like 2%. That got implemented. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That would be because this is a privately operated Half-Life mod and not a democracy. In this particular case, I don't think a poll that gets people's opinions on an abstract concept rather than an actual suggestion accomplishes very much. This poll is overly simplified, and people who are voting on it have no concept of the ups and downs of what would be implemented to accomplish this, so I don't see how the results can be taken seriously.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's funny how these polls where a huge majority votes for gets ignored. This and the unchained chambers poll. Compare to the lerk bite vs spike poll, where the difference was like 2%. That got implemented. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's funny how you obviously understand nothing of balance.
I would rather have games where both sides are managing to accomplish getting new upgrades and res towers rather than games where one side has to be fast enough to defeat the other. I feel that one reason that games are shorter because it's so easy to get powerful upgrades.
Nowadays, the only reason to get extra hives is to force the marines to have an extra target to kill to win, and to get an extra upgrade for the Onos or Fade, who can already be gotten with one hive. I'm a nostalgic fool that liked the old hive = new lifeform system, and I know people are going to ridicule me for that. I have never been commander before, so I can't say what can help balance things out for them (except the fact that somebody mentioned longer upgrade times, which sounds reasonable).
3.0b5 still is enjoyable, but compared to older versions, it always brings a voice in my head saying "this doesn't feel right."
<!--QuoteBegin-[SiD+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([SiD)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Squishy,Oct 16 2004, 11:46 PM] It's funny how you obviously understand nothing of balance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please elaborate. The devs have made large changes before, and they have been capable of balancing that. Therefor I put my trust in them being able to balance better than some dude without playtesting access or anything(ie ME) posting on a forum. However, while Zek is right that this isn't a democracy, it would be nice to see something happen when a huge part of the community agrees on a particular matter.
And there's not much that is vague about "Do you prefer longer games over shorter games?" really. If you think 'those who vote for longer games mean the games where one side just sits around doing nothing much for 30 minutes', you're being silly on purpose, avoiding the obvious.
P S Forlorn, ok if they have done something, then everythings great, but shouldn't they tell people that they're testing it so we can stop being angsty about how bad X item in the game is, and start drooling over the next version? Always the secrecy :/ (though I do understand that it's annoying when you say "ok guys we're testing something" and everyone takes it as a promise that it is going in the next version)
<!--QuoteBegin-i'm lost+Oct 17 2004, 03:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Oct 17 2004, 03:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If 80% support of an idea can be ignored, then why have a poll on it to begin with? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Bread and circuses my friend..
Personally, I don't care about game times.
I want longer individual battles. It'd be nice to have an opportunity to actually spar with an opponent before dying.
In order for the devs to make games longer, they have to implement some sort of a balance change, right? Well, what is that change? Nobody who voted on this poll knows, because it wasn't stated in either the poll question or the original post. Therefor, when the devs are considering some particular means to this end, it is impossible for them to know how many people support it because a poll was never taken on the subject. Okay, so maybe 78% of forum-goers think games should be longer. But maybe the majority of those people also think that, say, slowing down tech times across the board is a really crappy idea. Well, from this poll you'd think that they support any means to lengthen games, right? Obviously they don't, and that's why it's impossible for the devs to use this poll to measure support for one idea or another.
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Oct 17 2004, 03:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Oct 17 2004, 03:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And there's not much that is vague about "Do you prefer longer games over shorter games?" really. If you think 'those who vote for longer games mean the games where one side just sits around doing nothing much for 30 minutes', you're being silly on purpose, avoiding the obvious. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I was gonna respond to this, but then I saw Zek's post.
So.....what he said. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also, did Flayra actually ever acknowledge or say he'd do something about this?
Did he say he'd look at the lerk bite poll?
Did he say he'd look at the unchained chamber poll?
He took seriously the ones he wanted to take seriously, the other polls are just for fun/informational purposes that no one (in their right mind) has to take seriously.
But why was this poll made in the first place? "Informational purposes" just doesn't seem like enough of a reason... It's like asking everyone where you work if they'd like, say, a soda machine. And then when they ask why they didn't get one, despite 8 out of 10 saying that they did indeed, you tell them that they won't get one because they didn't specify <i>which kind</i> of soda they wanted with the machine. Or that they were just checking what people thought. But you normally say that <u>before</u> you want the answer.
Making a poll about gameplay and then ignoring it is just cruel. Perhaps the forum moderators should ask the devs before sanctioning any polls, to see if they would change their mind, should the poll turn out in some specific way.
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Oct 17 2004, 12:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Oct 17 2004, 12:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But why was this poll made in the first place? "Informational purposes" just doesn't seem like enough of a reason... It's like asking everyone where you work if they'd like, say, a soda machine. And then when they ask why they didn't get one, despite 8 out of 10 saying that they did indeed, you tell them that they won't get one because they didn't specify <i>which kind</i> of soda they wanted with the machine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it's more like asking everyone whether or not they like being thirsty, and then using the results to argue for a soda machine...
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Oct 17 2004, 09:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Oct 17 2004, 09:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Align+Oct 17 2004, 12:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Oct 17 2004, 12:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But why was this poll made in the first place? "Informational purposes" just doesn't seem like enough of a reason... It's like asking everyone where you work if they'd like, say, a soda machine. And then when they ask why they didn't get one, despite 8 out of 10 saying that they did indeed, you tell them that they won't get one because they didn't specify <i>which kind</i> of soda they wanted with the machine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it's more like asking everyone whether or not they like being thirsty, and then using the results to argue for a soda machine... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Zek's analogy is more accurate to the question in the poll. The soda machine is more or less the solution to being thirsty, like adding a drinking fountain or whatever.
The soda fountain is the same as saying, do you want to decrease damage done by all weapons to increase the length of games.
The point still stands. If they do not care about polls, then they shouldn't be made. And, if they aren't being ignored, then it would be real nice if they built on the general opinion, like, ask more questions? Make more polls? Or better yet, ask the PTs.
Who do you refer to by 'they'? This poll was made by Burncycle on user request. Burn is an outstanding mod, but not a member of the devteam.
As for our general position on polls and their impact on dev decisions, I made a comparably lengthy post on the issue <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=80522&st=45' target='_blank'>here</a>.
Lets just say, if the games were longer (>30min) I would start playing again. Currently, you can say which side will win very early on. So, its not 15 minute games but 3.
imho, I think we should go for longer games. And although I do not know why, they always tend to be more fun. I'm not saying that the NS team can't manage to get all that fun in a shorter game, I'm just saying that it was funner (tbh) when it was longer, and it would probably be easier to increase the enjoyment level by making the game longer (provided tweaking is done well).
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Oct 19 2004, 10:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Oct 19 2004, 10:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Then maybe you need to refine what you're asking for a little bit. Would you come back if games were decided in 3 minutes and lasted another 27? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And quantify I shall.. I would like a game where the winner would be decided at around the 30 minute mark. Not to say nothing should be happening in the first 30 minutes, but make it very difficult to annihilate the other team beyond recovery within this time.
That means things like more hive/CC/resource node health, no res for killing, make aliens spawn slower but in waves, research of high end goodies (like grenades/HA) slower and res nodes slower, thus more important. Perhaps make the marines weaker, so they start with a disadvantage but make their buildings more resillient (CC to start with electricity) to prevent spawn rush by aliens. Removal of electricity from all buildings except the CC.. so more direct defence needed. That means beefing of defence structures like turrets and oc, so farming is an option, albiet an expensive one (price ++). And finally, tone down the <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif' /><!--endemo--> so it can only fire with direct marine site, none of this observatory bs. Tone down the fuel of jetpack as well. Fades should not be the game ender either, they should match mid-game marines w/o HA (i.e with armour upgrades, + shotty).
Oh, and make onus virtually unstoppable, and raise the price to 80/100 res. If aliens get that far, it SHOULD mean goodbye... unless the marines have a train of HAs to stop it, and if they do - they should likewise ream the aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 17 2004, 08:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 17 2004, 08:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also, did Flayra actually ever acknowledge or say he'd do something about this?
Did he say he'd look at the lerk bite poll?
Did he say he'd look at the unchained chamber poll?
He took seriously the ones he wanted to take seriously, the other polls are just for fun/informational purposes that no one (in their right mind) has to take seriously. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think Flayra made the Lerk poll himself.
<!--QuoteBegin-ZERG!!+Oct 20 2004, 06:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZERG!! @ Oct 20 2004, 06:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 17 2004, 08:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 17 2004, 08:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also, did Flayra actually ever acknowledge or say he'd do something about this?
Did he say he'd look at the lerk bite poll?
Did he say he'd look at the unchained chamber poll?
He took seriously the ones he wanted to take seriously, the other polls are just for fun/informational purposes that no one (in their right mind) has to take seriously. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think Flayra made the Lerk poll himself. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> My point exactly
long games are realy nice, but I dont want anything artificial pushing it to a long game. Right now I have see 1/10 of the games I play last up to 40 mins. 1/100 last for over an hour.
long games are realy fun when each side is pushing thier hardest and there are alot of power shifts.
The length of the game is usually determined by the skill levels of each team. I've seen games where both teams were great go back and forth for 40+ minutes. Pushes and counters happening, in the current build. I've also seen two teams of horrible skill and teamwork going for 40+ minutes, just because one side can't finish, the other somehow gets a foothold, then can't hold and its back to square one.
If one team is more skilled than the other, then obviously they will dominate, no matter what changes you make. The only thing that will change is how long the domination will last. Making the game longer in that case will only **** off the losing team.
Comments
Compare to the lerk bite vs spike poll, where the difference was like 2%. That got implemented.
Compare to the lerk bite vs spike poll, where the difference was like 2%. That got implemented. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be because this is a privately operated Half-Life mod and not a democracy. In this particular case, I don't think a poll that gets people's opinions on an abstract concept rather than an actual suggestion accomplishes very much. This poll is overly simplified, and people who are voting on it have no concept of the ups and downs of what would be implemented to accomplish this, so I don't see how the results can be taken seriously.
Seriously, they know, they are just people who need to figure this stuff out though....
Compare to the lerk bite vs spike poll, where the difference was like 2%. That got implemented.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's funny how you obviously understand nothing of balance.
Nowadays, the only reason to get extra hives is to force the marines to have an extra target to kill to win, and to get an extra upgrade for the Onos or Fade, who can already be gotten with one hive. I'm a nostalgic fool that liked the old hive = new lifeform system, and I know people are going to ridicule me for that. I have never been commander before, so I can't say what can help balance things out for them (except the fact that somebody mentioned longer upgrade times, which sounds reasonable).
3.0b5 still is enjoyable, but compared to older versions, it always brings a voice in my head saying "this doesn't feel right."
Wow.
You win "Most Pointless Bump 2004" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
We need to lock this if we want to leave it dead.
Please elaborate. The devs have made large changes before, and they have been capable of balancing that. Therefor I put my trust in them being able to balance better than some dude without playtesting access or anything(ie ME) posting on a forum.
However, while Zek is right that this isn't a democracy, it would be nice to see something happen when a huge part of the community agrees on a particular matter.
And there's not much that is vague about "Do you prefer longer games over shorter games?" really. If you think 'those who vote for longer games mean the games where one side just sits around doing nothing much for 30 minutes', you're being silly on purpose, avoiding the obvious.
P S Forlorn, ok if they have done something, then everythings great, but shouldn't they tell people that they're testing it so we can stop being angsty about how bad X item in the game is, and start drooling over the next version? Always the secrecy :/
(though I do understand that it's annoying when you say "ok guys we're testing something" and everyone takes it as a promise that it is going in the next version)
Bread and circuses my friend..
Personally, I don't care about game times.
I want longer individual battles.
It'd be nice to have an opportunity to actually spar with an opponent before dying.
I was gonna respond to this, but then I saw Zek's post.
So.....what he said. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Did he say he'd look at the lerk bite poll?
Did he say he'd look at the unchained chamber poll?
He took seriously the ones he wanted to take seriously, the other polls are just for fun/informational purposes that no one (in their right mind) has to take seriously.
Or that they were just checking what people thought. But you normally say that <u>before</u> you want the answer.
Making a poll about gameplay and then ignoring it is just cruel. Perhaps the forum moderators should ask the devs before sanctioning any polls, to see if they would change their mind, should the poll turn out in some specific way.
EDIT: wewt 3000 posts
No, it's more like asking everyone whether or not they like being thirsty, and then using the results to argue for a soda machine...
No, it's more like asking everyone whether or not they like being thirsty, and then using the results to argue for a soda machine... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zek's analogy is more accurate to the question in the poll. The soda machine is more or less the solution to being thirsty, like adding a drinking fountain or whatever.
The soda fountain is the same as saying, do you want to decrease damage done by all weapons to increase the length of games.
As for our general position on polls and their impact on dev decisions, I made a comparably lengthy post on the issue <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=80522&st=45' target='_blank'>here</a>.
Lets just say, if the games were longer (>30min) I would start playing again. Currently, you can say which side will win very early on. So, its not 15 minute games but 3.
And quantify I shall.. I would like a game where the winner would be decided at around the 30 minute mark. Not to say nothing should be happening in the first 30 minutes, but make it very difficult to annihilate the other team beyond recovery within this time.
That means things like more hive/CC/resource node health, no res for killing, make aliens spawn slower but in waves, research of high end goodies (like grenades/HA) slower and res nodes slower, thus more important. Perhaps make the marines weaker, so they start with a disadvantage but make their buildings more resillient (CC to start with electricity) to prevent spawn rush by aliens. Removal of electricity from all buildings except the CC.. so more direct defence needed. That means beefing of defence structures like turrets and oc, so farming is an option, albiet an expensive one (price ++). And finally, tone down the <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif' /><!--endemo--> so it can only fire with direct marine site, none of this observatory bs. Tone down the fuel of jetpack as well. Fades should not be the game ender either, they should match mid-game marines w/o HA (i.e with armour upgrades, + shotty).
Oh, and make onus virtually unstoppable, and raise the price to 80/100 res. If aliens get that far, it SHOULD mean goodbye... unless the marines have a train of HAs to stop it, and if they do - they should likewise ream the aliens.
War of attrition is what i want!
Did he say he'd look at the lerk bite poll?
Did he say he'd look at the unchained chamber poll?
He took seriously the ones he wanted to take seriously, the other polls are just for fun/informational purposes that no one (in their right mind) has to take seriously. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think Flayra made the Lerk poll himself.
Did he say he'd look at the lerk bite poll?
Did he say he'd look at the unchained chamber poll?
He took seriously the ones he wanted to take seriously, the other polls are just for fun/informational purposes that no one (in their right mind) has to take seriously. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think Flayra made the Lerk poll himself. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point exactly
long games are realy fun when each side is pushing thier hardest and there are alot of power shifts.
Longer = Better.
If one team is more skilled than the other, then obviously they will dominate, no matter what changes you make. The only thing that will change is how long the domination will last. Making the game longer in that case will only **** off the losing team.