The length of the games are perfectly fine right now. If the marines or aliens are doing better than they deserve to win. Dont prolong the game so that the other team "might" have a chance to come back. Besides there are more important things to try and address, like hitboxes which are worse now than in b4.
douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin-Buggy+Sep 14 2004, 07:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Buggy @ Sep 14 2004, 07:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Longer yes, but has anyone wondered *at all* exactly HOW you want the devs to make NS more like that again?
Just another point of discussion, perhaps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> perhaps nerfing on both sides?
<!--QuoteBegin-Harmondo+Sep 14 2004, 05:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harmondo @ Sep 14 2004, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> oh please... anyone who thinks they're going to make a comeback are kidding themselves.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->this does not count the cases where the aliens/marines turtle outside the enemy base without attacking to kill).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no reason a game should last between 30 minutes and an hour and a half if this is not going on...
Not everyone has the time nor the patience to sit in a game for an hour + while absolutely nothing happens.
The only map these "wars" took place were on ns_nothing... And that was simply because of the map's structure and the fact that neither team could ever finish off the others.
Very seldomly will a game that goes beyond the 30 minute mark actually be fun for 3/4 of the people in that server. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> you never played long ago. have you? long ago, i remember some games, they were awsome, where that 1 res tower was soo important, the ailens took it, the marines later took it, and the cycle repeated for a good 20 mins, resulting in an insane war between 2 teams. the same with locking a hive and the rest, and unlike today, we could never be true and say "we so won this one, theyre gonna die." 3 mins after the 2nd lockdown, the marines lost, totally owned, it was a 2 hr game, and the best.
anyone know where to find 1.04 servers? i just redownloaded it and theres no servers <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Not to start a flame war but its inevitable; NS made itself unique then in made itself in a death match with about 10% RTS value, no one cares about saving the RT anymore, only about the hive or CC/IP....no more strategic placing of nearly anything, RTs are far to cheap to consider making any sort of defense besides some hidden mines.
NS lost its RTS uniqueness and that made it into a much quicker death match bore thats been done several times; just this time its with aliens and marines, I like the concept but they shouldn't go to DM as they should go to RTS where strategy in NS was refreshing from only rushing in CS and DoD, oh, I suppose camping could be a strategy in CS and DoD to, "camping" as a skulk is a boring requirement now adays.
But seriously, fade dies. GGNORE.
Marines pwned by a fade, GGNORE.
What a fun game, thats what NS is, hold back the marines and rush for hive and fade, do anything else and you're pretty screwed unless you got SCs up in a matter of a minute and somehow keep the marines from making an Obs.
Khaara is far to boring to play now, even being a fade is more stress then enjoyment as far as competitive playing go, die as a fade and you just lost it for the team unless your skulks got hive 2, you then may zerg the marines with leapers and pray the RFK they get doesn't subsistute for lost shotties.
Longer games will allow the Khaara team to actually not be cannon fodder thats useless early game, they can actually enjoy all aspects of NS without attempting +10 games to suck out one of these experiences from.
<!--QuoteBegin-6john6doe6+Sep 14 2004, 07:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (6john6doe6 @ Sep 14 2004, 07:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Buggy+Sep 14 2004, 07:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Buggy @ Sep 14 2004, 07:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Longer yes, but has anyone wondered *at all* exactly HOW you want the devs to make NS more like that again?
Just another point of discussion, perhaps. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> perhaps nerfing on both sides? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How would it work in-game though? Nerfing both sides is about as much advice as having "longer gamez own, make NS own plz" type topics. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Buggy+Sep 14 2004, 07:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Buggy @ Sep 14 2004, 07:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Longer yes, but has anyone wondered *at all* exactly HOW you want the devs to make NS more like that again?
Just another point of discussion, perhaps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes another discussion. At this point we are just trying to ascertain whether or not we would like to have longer ns_ games with more changing of power and unpredictable endings.
I don't know if you would have to weaken thing but it would do do for people who always say thing like make [insert name of something] should be stonger. No one says let's make something weaker although sometimes it is neeeded.
Details on <i>HOW</i> this will be done is something for the <u>I&S forum</u>. At this point the only question is: Would you like to have the fun long games in ns_ mode back? (you can still get your short, quick match fix from co_, so you aren't loosing anything)
Once in a while I play a game, where my team is doomed to lose, and we somehow come back, Even better it the other team threaten us again, followed by one of the sides winning the game with all upgrades.
In such a game marines kill several hives, and the aliens struggle to put them up again, perhaps with a relocation. I have tried this in the latest version, and what I love about this game is the short pauses, when I gasp for air in these battles, and think WOW, this really rocks.
The short games are ok, but most often it's a matter of them being decided very quickly, and waiting for the winning side to actually win.
The servers I play on isn't the best, so I think the long games is because players leave the game, and others join, thereby shifting the skill level on the teams and/or the number of players on each team. Perhaps some sort of handicap for the winning team, that would enable the losing to come back. Perhaps a losing team could spawn faster or something, I don't know...
My name was Anbu-Ajax on TF, and sorry, i don't remember ya <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> . But, in one of your pics, I do recognize WaXXed, and am a friend of Dave's.
A discussion on reasonings perhaps behind games being shorter and infered general idea's on how to make them longer have been being discussed in the "No Jokes Here" thread, and the thread of the same name as this one <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
when i say both sides need nerfing i mean exactly that. it seems like every time something is attempted to balance, it is by improving something, or making it better. how about make some of the weapons do less damage, and make some upgrades take longer to research, buildings longer to build, hives longer to put up. possibly raise the hp of things also.
heh, some of you dont remember old ns_nothing very well. It was by far the worst balanced map of the original set. No one remembers the cargo -> red room -> silo thing? ns_nothing on 1.04 is pretty much the worst pre 2.0 ns experience you can have.
The perfect game length for NS is around 15 minutes, which is pretty close to what it is now. The current length is perfect for both public and clan play. I would never want public games to be longer than they are now, and it would be impracticable to have clan matches longer than they are now.
There are a few considerations I've made in forming this opinion.
First off, the technology tree (and by this I mean not just the Frontiersman upgrades but also the Kharaa evolutions) serves as a tool for measurement of the relative game length. In the strategy games that I enjoy--Starcraft Brood War and Warcraft 3, principally--the average game length is less than the time in which it takes to complete the tech tree. The top tier technologies (for example Carriers, Defilers with Dark Swarm, Battlecruisers, Chimeras, Taurens with bloodlust, etc.) are meant to bring the game to a swift conclusion. That's not to say that whoever gets these technologies first wins the game, but rather that these top tier units are so powerful in relation to static defenses and bottom tier units that they allow the team with the clear economic upper hand to quickly convert that advantage into a win. Think Onos vs. turrets/light marines and Ultralisks vs. marines/medics.
This type of technology tree in which the top level units are disproportionately powerful creates an excellent game dynamic, where both teams are moving toward the ultimate goal of attaining the top tier units. Both teams are <i>always making progress toward a certain end</i>, regardless of whether the top tier units are actually required to end the game. In the games I mentioned (SCBW and WC3), about half of the games end before the top tier technologies are reached. In the games that do see the top tier units, most of them end shortly thereafter and only a few games are 45 minutes or more.
Comebacks should be possible in NS but not probable, because a game should be won by the team that plays better and makes better strategic decisisions than the other team. Yes, there should be a margin of error, and one small slipup should not mean certain loss for a team. However, once a team gains a decisive economic advantage, that team should be able to convert that advantage into a win by getting top tier units.
The problem with making NS games longer is that once the technology tree is exhausted, there's no longer an underlying strategical current pushing the game toward its end, and so the game becomes a back-and-forth slugfest deathmatch without a sense of grand strategy. The worst part of this is that players tend to feel like what they do has no real effect on the game. That's when players start leaving. A lot of the comebacks you hear about aren't actually comebacks. What they actually are are games in which the skilled players on the winning team have felt they can't break through the deadlock even though they have the advantage and so they start leaving and being replaced by weaker players. This may be fun for the players on the team that ends up winning the game, but trust me that, for the other team, games like that simply aren't fun to play.
Marines- -Marines tech tree research upped alot. -Weapons and jp and ha cost a little bit more -Welders repair armor much much slower (come on, from 0 armor to 290 in 5 seconds?) -Marine resource towers lowered health and upped cost. -jp has less fuel
Aliens- -Aliens only get 1 rfk. -Onos is locked at hive 3. Boosted dramatically in terms of power and health. -Skulks pumped up slightly. -Aliens start with 23 res. -Alien resource towers health lowered. -onos cost 40 (because of the 3rd hive requirement) -gestate times of all lifeforms doubled
Just talking about game length is going down the wrong path IMHO. It's not the length that makes games fun, it's the evenly matched ones with lots of comebacks that are fun. Currently, pretty much only those kind of games last that long, which is why almost all of those long games are so memorable. We can't just balance the game to last longer and expect all the games to be like that. What we have to think about is how to address the problem of games being determined so early and comebacks being so difficult. If the outcome weren't so easily decided, long games would come naturally. That's what we should be keeping in mind for this, not just "Long Games = Good."
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Sep 14 2004, 09:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Sep 14 2004, 09:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just talking about game length is going down the wrong path IMHO. It's not the length that makes games fun, it's the evenly matched ones with lots of comebacks that are fun. Currently, pretty much only those kind of games last that long, which is why almost all of those long games are so memorable. We can't just balance the game to last longer and expect all the games to be like that. What we have to think about is how to address the problem of games being determined so early and comebacks being so difficult. If the outcome weren't so easily decided, long games would come naturally. That's what we should be keeping in mind for this, not just "Long Games = Good." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Bingo.
NemZorro: Trust me, when games go back and forth, BOTH teams have fun. Ive heard the loser team CHEER in the RR afterwards. As well, we are saying that the margin of error is too small right now.
btw, another problem with ns: alien's top tier units (abilities) are poop <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
My comment is that more and more people who used to play competitive NS in clans have been quitting NS because they get bored of it. I too get bored of NS annoyingly quickly and have to take frequent breaks where I don't play for a week and play mindless DM games or dumb rush games (TFC and Starcraft) so when I go back to NS it feels so much more fun and cooler in comparison (what's sad is that I'm really not making this up <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
I have heard many people complain that NS has lost its fun (such an elusive and esoteric concept), and then some people respond that the whiner should play competitively and it will become fun. I also then watched as in a month neither person was playing NS anymore (in this particular example, it happens differently occasionally)...
Playing competitively does not make NS go from boring to fun for long. After a couple of weeks comp. play becomes just as repetitive and droll as pub play.
I also remember that in 1.0x NS got pretty dull because marines would so often just get out 1 or 2 jp hmg and kill all hives in minutes, or have other annoying, repetitive strategies, but on the whole, it was a lot more different from regular FPS and had more RTS, and this came, in a large part (I think) from the way the game was designed to last longer. RTS games almost always (with the few exceptions such as starcraft when it degenerates to all players doing a zealot or zergling rush as fast as possible), last longer than 20 minutes, and they are basically never decided in 10 minutes. I think that the problems with 1.0x lenght/type games have been/could be fixed easily with the many balance changes/issues addressed in v2 and 3beta.
I would give some ideas for how to make the game longer and more RTS-like, more strategical, less stuck on the same strat (with very small, very minor changes to the basic strat), and more fun, but I think that should probably be addressed in a different section of the forums (I&S) and that would require a lot of time and input.
Anyways, longer games, by at least 10 minutes would be great (i think right now the avg is supposed to be 15), and maybe longer than that.
I voted yes. A good way to make the game longer is just to slow everything down, I think. Make upgrades more expensive and/or take longer to research. Make hives take longer to build, and upgrade chambers more expensive. Remove rfk.
douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
i just got out of a game on mineshaft that lasted about 45 minutes, and to anyone who doesnt know what its like in a long game, or things that 3/4 of the people dont like long games, this was just a 45 minute game. i played as aliens and when i joined the game i thought we had it lost. 6 minutes in and they were outside our only hive. we made a slight comeback and got another hive up, but right when we did they seiged it down. we got it up again and they tried to seige our first hive and we barely got there in time to take down the tf as they were building the seiges. this went on for a long time and for half the game i KNEW that the marines had us beat, we had like 5 gorges and 1 fade who was not an amazing fade. in the end we did a huge onos/fade rush on marine start, and we all died because the marines fought so hard and refused to give it up. they also still had sewer hive, and we did another onos rush. while we did that they came marching out with full team in heavies and almost took tram hive, but we got it back and finally destroyed ms. to end it i walked up to the comm who jumped out of the comman chair, looked at him, and xenod. when we got back to the ready room everyone cheered over the mic, especially the marines.
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Sep 15 2004, 03:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Sep 15 2004, 03:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> heh, some of you dont remember old ns_nothing very well. It was by far the worst balanced map of the original set. No one remembers the cargo -> red room -> silo thing? ns_nothing on 1.04 is pretty much the worst pre 2.0 ns experience you can have.
I voted yes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I dunno, it added something extra I think. Not only did you have to lock down the hives, but you also had almost every alien team member after 5 or 10 minutes going "has someone lamed red room up yet?!" <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-the Sneaky+Sep 14 2004, 07:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (the Sneaky @ Sep 14 2004, 07:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> At this point the only question is: Would you like to have the fun long games in ns_ mode back? (you can still get your short, quick match fix from co_, so you aren't loosing anything) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In a word: yes. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I always enjoyed longer games were there was alot of back and forth on who was winning. I remember games from the 1.04 days, not because they were when I first started, but because they were epic and action packed (The server where I was at rarely used JP/HMG simply because we found it more fun to do it with out them). I think that the old versions of NS had that epic feel because 1 - res was harder to get, and 2 - Times and Cost were greater. Once rfk was introduced, RTs became unimportant, all to many times I hear "Don't worry about RTs, just kill for res" or seen gorges set up OC traps simply so they could get res for them selves, instead of get RTs for the whole team. Then when marine costs were lowered, marines realy do not need more than 2 RTs and then just have to kill aliens for extra res. And with times reduced on research, it is now longer holding on to survive, fighting for your life while the upgrade finishes, but now it is just a matter of starting it, and you have it in about a min or so. While epic games are now based on almost perfectly balanced teams, in the old versions it was based on RTs. Those are what I miss, hearing the comm or hive mind say an RT is under attack, knowing that you can not afford to lose it. Having to fight for every room, all of it ending in an all out battle at the last hive/marine start, and just when you think it is over, a marine manages to get a relocate, or a gorge sneaks a hive up and you are being swarmed and find yourself on the defensive. Those were the great games
Yeah Id like longer games with chances of coming back. But no way in hell do I want any more Battles for Eclipse like games, or any game thats more than an hour long. Most games that are an hour long nowadays are alamo ones, but occationally you still can get a good 40-60 minute intense game if the sides delegate so.
<!--QuoteBegin-ZERG!!+Sep 15 2004, 12:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZERG!! @ Sep 15 2004, 12:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dunno why this is brought up now. The goal has been to shorten game time since 2.0. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yup, it has. And every time it has been brought up, someone has expressed their distaste for it. Its just that now, theres a consolidated distaste =)
Thus far, the polls are looking to be about 75% in favor of long games. Then again, the poll has only been up for a day or so thus far. Still, thats a pretty big majority, and I hope the devs are seriously considering this.
I should also point out I play 5 hour long WC and C&C games with my friends, and have a blast. Good luck doing that online.
Games are already as long as they are with the way pubbers play.
EDIT: And what I meant by my original post was that it's a little to late to be complaining about it now. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
Just another point of discussion, perhaps.
Just another point of discussion, perhaps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
perhaps nerfing on both sides?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->this does not count the cases where the aliens/marines turtle outside the enemy base without attacking to kill).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no reason a game should last between 30 minutes and an hour and a half if this is not going on...
Not everyone has the time nor the patience to sit in a game for an hour + while absolutely nothing happens.
The only map these "wars" took place were on ns_nothing... And that was simply because of the map's structure and the fact that neither team could ever finish off the others.
Very seldomly will a game that goes beyond the 30 minute mark actually be fun for 3/4 of the people in that server. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
you never played long ago. have you?
long ago, i remember some games, they were awsome, where that 1 res tower was soo important, the ailens took it, the marines later took it, and the cycle repeated for a good 20 mins, resulting in an insane war between 2 teams. the same with locking a hive and the rest, and unlike today, we could never be true and say "we so won this one, theyre gonna die." 3 mins after the 2nd lockdown, the marines lost, totally owned, it was a 2 hr game, and the best.
NS lost its RTS uniqueness and that made it into a much quicker death match bore thats been done several times; just this time its with aliens and marines, I like the concept but they shouldn't go to DM as they should go to RTS where strategy in NS was refreshing from only rushing in CS and DoD, oh, I suppose camping could be a strategy in CS and DoD to, "camping" as a skulk is a boring requirement now adays.
But seriously, fade dies. GGNORE.
Marines pwned by a fade, GGNORE.
What a fun game, thats what NS is, hold back the marines and rush for hive and fade, do anything else and you're pretty screwed unless you got SCs up in a matter of a minute and somehow keep the marines from making an Obs.
Khaara is far to boring to play now, even being a fade is more stress then enjoyment as far as competitive playing go, die as a fade and you just lost it for the team unless your skulks got hive 2, you then may zerg the marines with leapers and pray the RFK they get doesn't subsistute for lost shotties.
Longer games will allow the Khaara team to actually not be cannon fodder thats useless early game, they can actually enjoy all aspects of NS without attempting +10 games to suck out one of these experiences from.
Just another point of discussion, perhaps. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
perhaps nerfing on both sides? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would it work in-game though? Nerfing both sides is about as much advice as having "longer gamez own, make NS own plz" type topics. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Just another point of discussion, perhaps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes another discussion. At this point we are just trying to ascertain whether or not we would like to have longer ns_ games with more changing of power and unpredictable endings.
I don't know if you would have to weaken thing but it would do do for people who always say thing like make [insert name of something] should be stonger. No one says let's make something weaker although sometimes it is neeeded.
Details on <i>HOW</i> this will be done is something for the <u>I&S forum</u>. At this point the only question is: Would you like to have the fun long games in ns_ mode back? (you can still get your short, quick match fix from co_, so you aren't loosing anything)
Non-linear rocks!
In such a game marines kill several hives, and the aliens struggle to put them up again, perhaps with a relocation. I have tried this in the latest version, and what I love about this game is the short pauses, when I gasp for air in these battles, and think WOW, this really rocks.
The short games are ok, but most often it's a matter of them being decided very quickly, and waiting for the winning side to actually win.
The servers I play on isn't the best, so I think the long games is because players leave the game, and others join, thereby shifting the skill level on the teams and/or the number of players on each team. Perhaps some sort of handicap for the winning team, that would enable the losing to come back. Perhaps a losing team could spawn faster or something, I don't know...
Then ill just state that I prefer longer games with possible comeback (which is the first choice)
No good can come of this.
I voted yes.
There are a few considerations I've made in forming this opinion.
First off, the technology tree (and by this I mean not just the Frontiersman upgrades but also the Kharaa evolutions) serves as a tool for measurement of the relative game length. In the strategy games that I enjoy--Starcraft Brood War and Warcraft 3, principally--the average game length is less than the time in which it takes to complete the tech tree. The top tier technologies (for example Carriers, Defilers with Dark Swarm, Battlecruisers, Chimeras, Taurens with bloodlust, etc.) are meant to bring the game to a swift conclusion. That's not to say that whoever gets these technologies first wins the game, but rather that these top tier units are so powerful in relation to static defenses and bottom tier units that they allow the team with the clear economic upper hand to quickly convert that advantage into a win. Think Onos vs. turrets/light marines and Ultralisks vs. marines/medics.
This type of technology tree in which the top level units are disproportionately powerful creates an excellent game dynamic, where both teams are moving toward the ultimate goal of attaining the top tier units. Both teams are <i>always making progress toward a certain end</i>, regardless of whether the top tier units are actually required to end the game. In the games I mentioned (SCBW and WC3), about half of the games end before the top tier technologies are reached. In the games that do see the top tier units, most of them end shortly thereafter and only a few games are 45 minutes or more.
Comebacks should be possible in NS but not probable, because a game should be won by the team that plays better and makes better strategic decisisions than the other team. Yes, there should be a margin of error, and one small slipup should not mean certain loss for a team. However, once a team gains a decisive economic advantage, that team should be able to convert that advantage into a win by getting top tier units.
The problem with making NS games longer is that once the technology tree is exhausted, there's no longer an underlying strategical current pushing the game toward its end, and so the game becomes a back-and-forth slugfest deathmatch without a sense of grand strategy. The worst part of this is that players tend to feel like what they do has no real effect on the game. That's when players start leaving. A lot of the comebacks you hear about aren't actually comebacks. What they actually are are games in which the skilled players on the winning team have felt they can't break through the deadlock even though they have the advantage and so they start leaving and being replaced by weaker players. This may be fun for the players on the team that ends up winning the game, but trust me that, for the other team, games like that simply aren't fun to play.
Marines-
-Marines tech tree research upped alot.
-Weapons and jp and ha cost a little bit more
-Welders repair armor much much slower (come on, from 0 armor to 290 in 5 seconds?)
-Marine resource towers lowered health and upped cost.
-jp has less fuel
Aliens-
-Aliens only get 1 rfk.
-Onos is locked at hive 3. Boosted dramatically in terms of power and health.
-Skulks pumped up slightly.
-Aliens start with 23 res.
-Alien resource towers health lowered.
-onos cost 40 (because of the 3rd hive requirement)
-gestate times of all lifeforms doubled
what do you guys think?
Bingo.
NemZorro: Trust me, when games go back and forth, BOTH teams have fun. Ive heard the loser team CHEER in the RR afterwards. As well, we are saying that the margin of error is too small right now.
btw, another problem with ns: alien's top tier units (abilities) are poop <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
My comment is that more and more people who used to play competitive NS in clans have been quitting NS because they get bored of it. I too get bored of NS annoyingly quickly and have to take frequent breaks where I don't play for a week and play mindless DM games or dumb rush games (TFC and Starcraft) so when I go back to NS it feels so much more fun and cooler in comparison (what's sad is that I'm really not making this up <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
I have heard many people complain that NS has lost its fun (such an elusive and esoteric concept), and then some people respond that the whiner should play competitively and it will become fun. I also then watched as in a month neither person was playing NS anymore (in this particular example, it happens differently occasionally)...
Playing competitively does not make NS go from boring to fun for long. After a couple of weeks comp. play becomes just as repetitive and droll as pub play.
I also remember that in 1.0x NS got pretty dull because marines would so often just get out 1 or 2 jp hmg and kill all hives in minutes, or have other annoying, repetitive strategies, but on the whole, it was a lot more different from regular FPS and had more RTS, and this came, in a large part (I think) from the way the game was designed to last longer. RTS games almost always (with the few exceptions such as starcraft when it degenerates to all players doing a zealot or zergling rush as fast as possible), last longer than 20 minutes, and they are basically never decided in 10 minutes. I think that the problems with 1.0x lenght/type games have been/could be fixed easily with the many balance changes/issues addressed in v2 and 3beta.
I would give some ideas for how to make the game longer and more RTS-like, more strategical, less stuck on the same strat (with very small, very minor changes to the basic strat), and more fun, but I think that should probably be addressed in a different section of the forums (I&S) and that would require a lot of time and input.
Anyways, longer games, by at least 10 minutes would be great (i think right now the avg is supposed to be 15), and maybe longer than that.
I voted yes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno, it added something extra I think. Not only did you have to lock down the hives, but you also had almost every alien team member after 5 or 10 minutes going "has someone lamed red room up yet?!" <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In a word: yes. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yup, it has. And every time it has been brought up, someone has expressed their distaste for it. Its just that now, theres a consolidated distaste =)
Thus far, the polls are looking to be about 75% in favor of long games. Then again, the poll has only been up for a day or so thus far. Still, thats a pretty big majority, and I hope the devs are seriously considering this.
I should also point out I play 5 hour long WC and C&C games with my friends, and have a blast. Good luck doing that online.
EDIT: And what I meant by my original post was that it's a little to late to be complaining about it now. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->