After nine pages of replies can we get some official news from this?
I voted yes. I like relaxed games with constant powerswings. Those that makes you say "ok now I gotta move up my bottom or we're gonna lose so bad.". Now it's more like "dang, I just died as a fade, we freakin' lost".
I voted yes, but why bother? If the unchaining poll taught us anything, it's that polls don't mean squat. Sorry to sound cynical, but how many people have to vote and what kind of a majority do you need to even stand a chance of convincing the devs?
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Sep 15 2004, 05:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Sep 15 2004, 05:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-IBT+Sep 15 2004, 01:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (IBT @ Sep 15 2004, 01:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-GiGaBiTe+Sep 15 2004, 09:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GiGaBiTe @ Sep 15 2004, 09:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i remember a server back in the ns 1.4 days where they had 1 game on ns_nothing that lasted for about a week strait (people played in shifts) now that was an awesome game. and there was always some sort of action on the map, not just campers. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> holy crap, i thought 2 days was long... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, I doubt a week long game really happened. Either it didnt happen, or he was playing on a server that absolutely owns everything on the market. NS 1.0x takes a heavy toll on the server. Long games hurt it even more (remember, it still keeps track of structures that were destroyed). From what I remember, its rare to find a server that can take an NS game that goes beyond 5hrs+ before crashing. One week is impossible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> well i dont know about you, but i could keep a 16 player full server on ns 1.04 for days on end without crashing.
the thing that made servers crash the most were the buggy plugins for metamod back then. or at least from my experience.
When an alien managed to kill the armory in 1.0x it was kind of a desaster because you really had to save hard for it and protect the base at all times. Now its like 'oh the armory went down.. lets build a new one in 10 secs' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> true.
In some strategy games, if you take out one or two of the enemies basic structures they can't seem to make that critical Ghost to nuke you with, or build that uber tank of death.
When an alien managed to kill the armory in 1.0x it was kind of a desaster because you really had to save hard for it and protect the base at all times. Now its like 'oh the armory went down.. lets build a new one in 10 secs' <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> true.
In some strategy games, if you take out one or two of the enemies basic structures they can't seem to make that critical Ghost to nuke you with, or build that uber tank of death. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you take out an upgraded armoury, the enemy can't deploy any more HMGs or GLs for ~3 minutes, and it costs them ~40 res to get back to that point. If they don't have a proto down, it's fatal for marines.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+Sep 16 2004, 03:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Sep 16 2004, 03:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I voted yes, but why bother? If the unchaining poll taught us anything, it's that polls don't mean squat. Sorry to sound cynical, but how many people have to vote and what kind of a majority do you need to even stand a chance of convincing the devs? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wasn't lerk bite instead of spikes decided on a poll that was like 52% <i>for</i> bite?
<!--QuoteBegin-TankBuster+Sep 16 2004, 03:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TankBuster @ Sep 16 2004, 03:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was beggin to die because the game was so freaking crazy!! 1 minute we control data, seiging arch have 5 RTs the next we are facing hive 3 aliens at hive 3 & down to our last 2 RTs. It was like checkers for 58 minutes!
Aliens have hive 1 Aliens have hive 2 Rines have hive 3 Rines seiged hive 1 Aliens took hive 3 Rines seiged hive 2 Aliens took hive 1 Rines HMG rush hive 3 Aliens kill HMG rushers Aliens take hive 2 Marines seige hive 1 & 2 Aliens take hive 2 back Both sides sit for a while, coffee gets served at hera reception. Aliens & rines compliment each other on their achivements. Onos finishes all the cookies. Rines take hive 2 Rines take hive 3 Rines take hive 4
Rines realise how aliens came back so many times, they have 4 hives! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Err...I'd love to play a game like that. Sounds balanced, back and forth, it's exactly the kind of game we've all been talking about in this thread.....
Except for the onos finishing all the cookies. MY COOKIES!
<!--QuoteBegin-5kyh16h91+Sep 16 2004, 11:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ Sep 16 2004, 11:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TankBuster+Sep 16 2004, 03:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TankBuster @ Sep 16 2004, 03:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was beggin to die because the game was so freaking crazy!! 1 minute we control data, seiging arch have 5 RTs the next we are facing hive 3 aliens at hive 3 & down to our last 2 RTs. It was like checkers for 58 minutes!
Aliens have hive 1 Aliens have hive 2 Rines have hive 3 Rines seiged hive 1 Aliens took hive 3 Rines seiged hive 2 Aliens took hive 1 Rines HMG rush hive 3 Aliens kill HMG rushers Aliens take hive 2 Marines seige hive 1 & 2 Aliens take hive 2 back Both sides sit for a while, coffee gets served at hera reception. Aliens & rines compliment each other on their achivements. Onos finishes all the cookies. Rines take hive 2 Rines take hive 3 Rines take hive 4
Rines realise how aliens came back so many times, they have 4 hives! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Err...I'd love to play a game like that. Sounds balanced, back and forth, it's exactly the kind of game we've all been talking about in this thread.....
Except for the onos finishing all the cookies. MY COOKIES! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Game sounds like it sucks terribly.
You basically have a bunch of incompetetant pubbers on both teams, with the exception of a good fade and a good commander.
The commander can't hold jack squat because his marines don't follow orders, and the aliens all run around like bumbling idoits building whatever they can find open ground, meanwhile there is a good fade who is kicking butt but is unable to hold ground because he simply cannot overpower 9 marines who bumrush a hive.
The fade, most likely a good player, will eventually grow very very tired of the boring repetetive pub play and stop pubbing. Meanwhile the commander is like "OMG WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU MORONS!!!! EUUUUGHHGHGH!!" He won't comm pubs for awhile after that.
However, the other 18 players will be like 'OMG liek this is so kewl we killed teh hive!! again!! and again! OMG there it goes another hive!!!"
It won't be long untill the pubbers grow tired of games that play themselves out because no one has any idea of how to finish it quickly.
get fades as soon as humanly possible with regen. comm saves for jps so that rambos can go to a hive and kill it with medspam and ammospam.
end of gaem.
btw,
"Dude shortening the game wasn't about the clans, it was about all NSPlayers. Not only that, starcraft is balanced around clanplay, but look where that got it... "
firstly, stop mentioning starcraft. everyone of your posts has starcraft in it. i dont give a dman about it. i dont care if its popular.
secondly, if it is about nsplayers, then the nsplayers are speaking out.
<!--QuoteBegin-Xeno+Sep 16 2004, 06:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xeno @ Sep 16 2004, 06:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> forlorn, your clan games are crap too.
so predictable.
get fades as soon as humanly possible with regen. comm saves for jps so that rambos can go to a hive and kill it with medspam and ammospam.
end of gaem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> From that description is sounds like NS (clan or pub) hasn't changed much since 1.04 Play on servers like Lunixmonster & you'll see the difference.
I pray that the devs remember that longer games ought to derive from equally matched opponents repeatedly squareing off with a 50:50 chance that either could win. To acomplish this equal matching some things will no doubt have to be slowed down, eg marine res tower building. Dependence on a single player to decide the outcome of the game should be thrown out the window. Longer games should not result from one team losing for 30 mins. Some of the best games ive played have been teams with equal res fighting for 3rd hive.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+Sep 16 2004, 09:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Sep 16 2004, 09:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I voted yes, but why bother? If the unchaining poll taught us anything, it's that polls don't mean squat. Sorry to sound cynical, but how many people have to vote and what kind of a majority do you need to even stand a chance of convincing the devs? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then this is perhaps the roadblock. Why won't they listen...
Hey maybe I'll just take the NS source code for 2.01 and make my own version of NS. Then I can go, "Muhahahahahah! Now I am the evil overlord." Hey it's not copyrighted so what's to stop me... As long as I make changes it's not the same thing.
Power to the people? Maybe? Hmm? Nah democracy is for suckers, my bad I forgot. Soo stupid. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Longer = better, it gives both teams a good chance to beef up and it gives the game a good feel. Those who want short games can opt for combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This should be obvious. *cough* Forlorn *cough* People who want the quick DM style combat, go play *wait for it* <i>Combat</i>. Maybe reason why it called <i>combat</i>? Oh wait, I must be wrong... Jeeze what was I thinking.
get fades as soon as humanly possible with regen. comm saves for jps so that rambos can go to a hive and kill it with medspam and ammospam.
end of gaem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> From that description is sounds like NS (clan or pub) hasn't changed much since 1.04 Play on servers like Lunixmonster & you'll see the difference. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> this is in the span of 15 minutes.
in 1.04, rts were actually important. now you have rfk, and thats all you pretty much need. i hope they take out rfk and make trs important to hold.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Sep 16 2004, 11:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 16 2004, 11:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Game sounds like it sucks terribly.
You basically have a bunch of incompetetant pubbers on both teams, with the exception of a good fade and a good commander.
The commander can't hold jack squat because his marines don't follow orders, and the aliens all run around like bumbling idoits building whatever they can find open ground, meanwhile there is a good fade who is kicking butt but is unable to hold ground because he simply cannot overpower 9 marines who bumrush a hive.
The fade, most likely a good player, will eventually grow very very tired of the boring repetetive pub play and stop pubbing. Meanwhile the commander is like "OMG WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU MORONS!!!! EUUUUGHHGHGH!!" He won't comm pubs for awhile after that.
However, the other 18 players will be like 'OMG liek this is so kewl we killed teh hive!! again!! and again! OMG there it goes another hive!!!"
It won't be long untill the pubbers grow tired of games that play themselves out because no one has any idea of how to finish it quickly.
The end <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm let's see....18 players satisfied with the experience, ready and willing to do it again....2 players unhappy. Sounds like a good game to me. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> And actually if I were the com or fade, and I have been both the com of the noob marines and the sole non-walker fade, I'd just have fun with it. I'd experiment with catpacks, I would find the single rambo who knew the map (because statistically speaking you can't get a team of 7 complete nubs, unless you walked in on a ns-guide game....) and practice getting marines through heavily-oced areas. If I were the fade, I'd get practice blink-swipe-meta-blink etc. I'd battlegorge. I'd constantly xeno. I'd follow one guy around as a cloaked skulk and chuckle repeatedly until he **** his pants. I'd try to get 20 charge, stomp, or AR kills. There's always something to do.
The objective is NOT, I repeat NOT to play well, to win, or to impress anybody. The objective is to have fun goddammit, and I don't give a damn how the game plays out as long as it's enjoyable. If the marines and the aliens were both all experts, playing at 100% to win the game, it'd be unenjoyable because one single error would immediately be capitalized on by the other team. That's too much pressure for a pub game. Not to say clan games aren't fun, they're just fun for other reasons. You play to win there, and everyone knows that the objective is to win at all costs, not to just have fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, the other 18 players will be like 'OMG liek this is so kewl we killed teh hive!! again!! and again! OMG there it goes another hive!!!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Egg - f**ing - zactly! Kill that hive! Again! Again! They got another up in sub! Get there get there gogogo! (Notice the com didn't turret farm up sub, makes for much better games imo, though of course there's the possibility you'll LOSE. The suspense makes it interesting)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It won't be long untill the pubbers grow tired of games that play themselves out because no one has any idea of how to finish it quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "Games that play themselves out" != "running back and forth between hives and chokepoints".
A game that played itself out would be the marine team rushing to a hive, turret farming it, kicking the aliens out of the second hive location, turret farming, then winning 20 minutes later. That's not fun. The aliens made one mistake by giving up the second hive, and they are punished with 20 minutes of boredom? No, just no. Now, suppose we change something around so the aliens didn't get pounded in the first 4 minutes of the game. I'm going to say nerf turrets, just as an example. With turrets nerfed, a pack of skulk with regen and/or gorge backup can take down one or two turrets in a couple of passes, then they can clear the hive, the gorge can put up the hive, etc. Or we could buff skulks, so they don't get pushed out of hives so easily. Or we could put in unchained chambers, so early skulks will actually get some benefits from upgrades. Or we could buff lerks, in case no one has the res to fade the aliens aren't completely screwed. Reduce crackjumping. Make ocs cost less. Make the res flow for aliens proportional to the number of players. Swap leap and parasite, make parasite give more info about the player and make leap cost more energy. Remove ping of death, replace with a vote system to slay the last 2 aliens left alive with no hive left, so a good skulk/lerk (fades are useless without blink) might acquire enough res to put up a hive. (Don't think it's impossible, I did it as a gorge trapped alone in cc hive with 4 ocs, 3 dcs, an sc and a mc (unchained server), with the res tower of course. I held out against 4 jp marines long enough to put up the hive. Why they didn't siege is beyond me, but it was still fun for all involved.)
See, plenty of things that can increase the margin of error for the aliens. High stress situations do not lend themselves well to pub games, because inevitably there will be some players who aren't as good or who aren't playing at 100%. THAT's where all this animosity towards new players comes from, because one new player can spoil the fun for 18 others. When I want a real game I pug, but if I go on a pub and get so stressed that I end up yelling at some 13 year old kid who's just trying something new.....it's just sad.....
Actually I'm pretty sure has copyrighted, or at least trademarked, NS.
Some days ago I had a 2+ hour game of awesomeness. It was on an unchained server tho... In the end, it was mostly because the other side started relaxing after finishing something major, like in our case putting up a third hive(which ended up being a second hive, as the first one died. This happened twice. The other two times the replacement hive was put up shortly after another had died.), or in the marines case "putting down" a hive. It never got down to one side playing with the other really. The marines made their valiant last stand, with turrets and all, but we prevailed. Funny thing, without unchained it wouldn't have happened since the skulks would have been 'murdelizedx9999' if it weren't for being able to be in range of a sensory, yet have silence. While the onos and fades got regen. I think I saw 2 onos and 5 fades in that game(not at the same time). Man those fades stayed alive for long.
So uh, yeah, longer games can definitely be a lot better than quick games ever are, in terms of satisfaction with the round. Since the game is long though, you can't just say "its more fun", since when you're under the other side in tech or res control, it's not fun to get pwned while the gorges set up RTs to bring you back up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you take out an upgraded armoury, the enemy can't deploy any more HMGs or GLs for ~3 minutes, and it costs them ~40 res to get back to that point. If they don't have a proto down, it's fatal for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Add to this the mentioned HA train in front of the hive. They will have those 40 res back in a few seconds from RFK and they can't be stopped anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, the other 18 players will be like 'OMG liek this is so kewl we killed teh hive!! again!! and again! OMG there it goes another hive!!!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
18 players have fun. 2 players don't have fun. Make games shorter. It's much more important to please those two players.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It won't be long untill the pubbers grow tired of games that play themselves out because no one has any idea of how to finish it quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly this happens at the moment. Pubbers grow tired... of short games. Maybe some people haven't realized yet because they are busy playing their precious clan matches but pub games are decided in the first minutes and the chance of a comeback is close to NULL.
<u>Close minded people posting saying things go only their way</u>. Stop it please <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Striker, have you even asked about the reason those two players didn't have fun?
Actually I'm pretty sure has copyrighted, or at least trademarked, NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just call me x5, forums have a habit of being prejudiced at my two character name. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I was just being highly sarcastic there m8, but as a matter of fact I'm not sure if any HL mod can file for a copyright as they are technically the property of valve. It's an unwritten rule that modders don't jack off each others mods. I could be wrong, but I think that's how it is.
get fades as soon as humanly possible with regen. comm saves for jps so that rambos can go to a hive and kill it with medspam and ammospam.
end of gaem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> From that description is sounds like NS (clan or pub) hasn't changed much since 1.04 Play on servers like Lunixmonster & you'll see the difference. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> this is in the span of 15 minutes.
in 1.04, rts were actually important. now you have rfk, and thats all you pretty much need. i hope they take out rfk and make trs important to hold. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What?
In 1.04 you could go off your base RT, tech up to JP/HMG in under 5 min and solo their first hive in 2.5 HMG clips. What a great game! RT's meant so much, you didn't need them!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Play on servers like Lunixmonster & you'll see the difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure what kind of difference you are talking about here...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hmm let's see....18 players satisfied with the experience, ready and willing to do it again....2 players unhappy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 18 players have fun. 2 players don't have fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You guys are missing my point:
- The 2 people are the best players on the team. The ONLY reason the 18 other noobs had fun was preciously because they had the 1 good player on each team WHO MADE IT FUN, by PLAYING GOOD, and bothering to get GOOD at the game.
Without those two good players, the game would be this:
- Skulks and marines slaughter each other. Both have hard time to hold ground. Within the first 3 minutes, you can tell who is going to win just by juding the general suckiness of each team - the team that actually remembers to cap more nodes, or does something out of the random like get armor 1 upgrade, is going to win.
The #1 pub games have degraded, is preciously because the game now drives itself away from the good players who previously made it fun to play. Remove those 2 good players, whose feelings couldn't possibly matter in the big scheme of things, and you have a game that doesn't have comebacks or any sort of fun to it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The objective is NOT, I repeat NOT to play well, to win, or to impress anybody. The objective is to have fun goddammit, and I don't give a damn how the game plays out as long as it's enjoyable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Winning is always fun, whereas losing is only sometimes fun. Most of the time though the reason people play games is to win. Enough with "Play to have fun, not win" garbage because you ignoring truth.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So uh, yeah, longer games can definitely be a lot better than quick games ever are, in terms of satisfaction with the round. Since the game is long though, you can't just say "its more fun", since when you're under the other side in tech or res control, it's not fun to get pwned while the gorges set up RTs to bring you back up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Long games aren't more fun, because the reason it lasted so was due to a few good players who are able to keep the other team at bay. It may be fun for the fools who think they are doing something for the larger effort, when in reality the kills are going to one player who will by the end of the game have over 70 kills.
I too believe that longer (1+ hour) games are much more enjoyable than 20min games <b><i>IF</i></b> the power is shifting regularly. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This meaning that you are <b>not</b> in a stalemate, trying to break a turtle for 30+ minutes, or one of the teams is not killing the hive/cc on purpose. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If one of the above things happens it makes the game very unenjoyable for at least one of the teams. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I started playing NS during the version 2 days and I remember some very dynamic and epic battles. I am not saying we should go back to 2.0 because I am a very firm believer that NS should be moving forward, but I agree that the longer game time aspect should be brought back in some way.
When I read this thread I found 1 major reaccuring thing in most of the post made by people who want longer games. That is: place more importance on RT's
I think a good way to do this would be to:
1). <u>REMOVE RFK</u> - This takes away from the importance of RT's, and causes classic to be much more kill, kill, kill oriented (not necessarily a bad thing just not for classic) than the strategic tactical shooter that I first found NS to be.
2). <u>Lengthen research times</u> - This would just naturally make the games longer and makes comming marines more of the smart mans job than rushing through the tech tree. Comms would have to think "do I need upgrade X or do I need upgrade Y because by the time upgrade X is done researching I may have wished I'd gone for Y". Now in the current version you can get X in such a short amount of time that if it turns out you need Y you can get it too.
3). (may not be necesary) <u>Make research cost more res</u> - puts yet more importance on RT's and lengthens the game time naturally, but may not be needed depending on other changes made.
Sorry for the long post, I'll stop rambling now. If you actually read all of this then I thank you. I think these are <b>just a few</b> of the ways to accomplish longer game times. If you disagree I would like to hear your opinions please do not flame me.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Sep 16 2004, 02:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 16 2004, 02:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - The 2 people are the best players on the team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How do you know they are the most skilled ones?
<span style='color:yellow'>and btw, all of you please read this post found in I&S from zunni.
<!--QuoteBegin-Skydancer+Sep 16 2004, 02:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Skydancer @ Sep 16 2004, 02:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Sep 16 2004, 02:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 16 2004, 02:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - The 2 people are the best players on the team. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How do you know they are the most skilled ones?
<span style='color:yellow'>and btw, all of you please read this post found in I&S from zunni.
That guy has got balls to post a "weaken" suggestion. Historically very unpopular thing to suggest.
~edit~
Yes, I am accusing Flayra of not having the best interests of the NS community in mind. Not a bad thing, but a thing that needs to be brought to his attention.
<!--QuoteBegin-Skydancer+Sep 16 2004, 02:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Skydancer @ Sep 16 2004, 02:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Sep 16 2004, 02:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 16 2004, 02:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - The 2 people are the best players on the team. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How do you know they are the most skilled ones? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> errr... because I said so in the original scenerio I made up?
<!--QuoteBegin-agentx5+Sep 16 2004, 02:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (agentx5 @ Sep 16 2004, 02:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That guy has got balls to post a "weaken" suggestion. Historically very unpopular thing to suggest. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It shouldn't be a 'balls' question... people should be free to bring up whatever (with a little sense) comes up their mind, it's like 'collettive brainstorming'. But people flame because they think they are all right. So it's a balls question. "Will the guy resist inside his rags flame suit?"
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Sep 16 2004, 02:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 16 2004, 02:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> errr... because I said so in the original scenerio I made up? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> O_o
I thought it all started on the game report some guy posted earlier, the one with the 8 hives killed.
edit: uh lol, right. I messed up <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Forlorn, you do recognize that the reason that classic is unbalanced is due to Flayra's decision to bring the average game down to 15 minutes or so? Kharaa require longer time frames to react to a marine move or strategy. In the current version, if the marines know what they are doing, then they will win again the Kharaa easily. Your own little clanning world has helped prove this point magnificantly.
What we, the pubbers, are saying here is that if we want short games of NS, we will go and play Combat, but if we're going to play Classic, we want to have a game where a team can recover from losing a hive, where the fate of the Kharaa does not depend on DC's and an uber-Fade, and where the average skulk has a chance against the average marine. That means the games need to take longer, which is why this topic exists. We want comebacks, we want a game with odd twists and turns, we want a game wherein the game is not decided in 5 minutes, where a team that makes a mistake can recover from it.
I'm sick of classic in the current version. Very sick of it. I loved playing early versions of NS because the games were seriously dynamic, even down to a noob vs noob level.
Your "18 bad, 2 good" scenario is simply a product of your own personal bias against pubbers. I've not gone into a single game where that is the case.
The most fun game of NS I ever played was a game I lost. Fun and winning are not always synonomous, and that is our point. We want a game that is not drawn out, like many of the games today, but a game that is long because it is balanced and uncompressed. The gameplay of the current version is compressed, with the devs speeding up the process with things like RFK, faster and cheaper research times, etc. Slow it down, allow for some more mistakes, balance out the alien classes in comparison to their marine counterparts, etc.
What a shock: the RTS element might actually require more thought.
<!--QuoteBegin-Skydancer+Sep 16 2004, 02:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Skydancer @ Sep 16 2004, 02:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It shouldn't be a 'balls' question... people should be free to bring up whatever (with a little sense) comes up their mind. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Totally agree.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Sep 16 2004, 02:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 16 2004, 02:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Winning is always fun, whereas losing is only sometimes fun. Most of the time though the reason people play games is to win. Enough with "Play to have fun, not win" garbage because you ignoring truth. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? Winning is always fun? That's why the most popular "strategy" right now is to turret farm as many key locations as possible until you have enough res from rfk and the 2/3 rts you hold to kill the last hive? Yeah....fun.... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
I voted yes. I like relaxed games with constant powerswings. Those that makes you say "ok now I gotta move up my bottom or we're gonna lose so bad.". Now it's more like "dang, I just died as a fade, we freakin' lost".
holy crap, i thought 2 days was long... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I doubt a week long game really happened. Either it didnt happen, or he was playing on a server that absolutely owns everything on the market. NS 1.0x takes a heavy toll on the server. Long games hurt it even more (remember, it still keeps track of structures that were destroyed). From what I remember, its rare to find a server that can take an NS game that goes beyond 5hrs+ before crashing. One week is impossible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
well i dont know about you, but i could keep a 16 player full server on ns 1.04 for days on end without crashing.
the thing that made servers crash the most were the buggy plugins for metamod back then. or at least from my experience.
When an alien managed to kill the armory in 1.0x it was kind of a desaster because you really had to save hard for it and protect the base at all times. Now its like 'oh the armory went down.. lets build a new one in 10 secs' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
true.
In some strategy games, if you take out one or two of the enemies basic structures they can't seem to make that critical Ghost to nuke you with, or build that uber tank of death.
When an alien managed to kill the armory in 1.0x it was kind of a desaster because you really had to save hard for it and protect the base at all times. Now its like 'oh the armory went down.. lets build a new one in 10 secs' <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
true.
In some strategy games, if you take out one or two of the enemies basic structures they can't seem to make that critical Ghost to nuke you with, or build that uber tank of death. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you take out an upgraded armoury, the enemy can't deploy any more HMGs or GLs for ~3 minutes, and it costs them ~40 res to get back to that point. If they don't have a proto down, it's fatal for marines.
Wasn't lerk bite instead of spikes decided on a poll that was like 52% <i>for</i> bite?
Aliens have hive 1
Aliens have hive 2
Rines have hive 3
Rines seiged hive 1
Aliens took hive 3
Rines seiged hive 2
Aliens took hive 1
Rines HMG rush hive 3
Aliens kill HMG rushers
Aliens take hive 2
Marines seige hive 1 & 2
Aliens take hive 2 back
Both sides sit for a while, coffee gets served at hera reception. Aliens & rines compliment each other on their achivements.
Onos finishes all the cookies.
Rines take hive 2
Rines take hive 3
Rines take hive 4
Rines realise how aliens came back so many times, they have 4 hives! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Err...I'd love to play a game like that. Sounds balanced, back and forth, it's exactly the kind of game we've all been talking about in this thread.....
Except for the onos finishing all the cookies. MY COOKIES!
Aliens have hive 1
Aliens have hive 2
Rines have hive 3
Rines seiged hive 1
Aliens took hive 3
Rines seiged hive 2
Aliens took hive 1
Rines HMG rush hive 3
Aliens kill HMG rushers
Aliens take hive 2
Marines seige hive 1 & 2
Aliens take hive 2 back
Both sides sit for a while, coffee gets served at hera reception. Aliens & rines compliment each other on their achivements.
Onos finishes all the cookies.
Rines take hive 2
Rines take hive 3
Rines take hive 4
Rines realise how aliens came back so many times, they have 4 hives! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Err...I'd love to play a game like that. Sounds balanced, back and forth, it's exactly the kind of game we've all been talking about in this thread.....
Except for the onos finishing all the cookies. MY COOKIES! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Game sounds like it sucks terribly.
You basically have a bunch of incompetetant pubbers on both teams, with the exception of a good fade and a good commander.
The commander can't hold jack squat because his marines don't follow orders, and the aliens all run around like bumbling idoits building whatever they can find open ground, meanwhile there is a good fade who is kicking butt but is unable to hold ground because he simply cannot overpower 9 marines who bumrush a hive.
The fade, most likely a good player, will eventually grow very very tired of the boring repetetive pub play and stop pubbing. Meanwhile the commander is like "OMG WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU MORONS!!!! EUUUUGHHGHGH!!" He won't comm pubs for awhile after that.
However, the other 18 players will be like 'OMG liek this is so kewl we killed teh hive!! again!! and again! OMG there it goes another hive!!!"
It won't be long untill the pubbers grow tired of games that play themselves out because no one has any idea of how to finish it quickly.
The end
so predictable.
get fades as soon as humanly possible with regen.
comm saves for jps so that rambos can go to a hive and kill it with medspam and ammospam.
end of gaem.
btw,
"Dude shortening the game wasn't about the clans, it was about all NSPlayers. Not only that, starcraft is balanced around clanplay, but look where that got it... "
firstly, stop mentioning starcraft. everyone of your posts has starcraft in it. i dont give a dman about it. i dont care if its popular.
secondly, if it is about nsplayers, then the nsplayers are speaking out.
so predictable.
get fades as soon as humanly possible with regen.
comm saves for jps so that rambos can go to a hive and kill it with medspam and ammospam.
end of gaem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
From that description is sounds like NS (clan or pub) hasn't changed much since 1.04
Play on servers like Lunixmonster & you'll see the difference.
Some of the best games ive played have been teams with equal res fighting for 3rd hive.
Then this is perhaps the roadblock. Why won't they listen...
Hey maybe I'll just take the NS source code for 2.01 and make my own version of NS. Then I can go, "Muhahahahahah! Now I am the evil overlord." Hey it's not copyrighted so what's to stop me... As long as I make changes it's not the same thing.
Power to the people? Maybe? Hmm? Nah democracy is for suckers, my bad I forgot. Soo stupid. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Longer = better, it gives both teams a good chance to beef up and it gives the game a good feel. Those who want short games can opt for combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This should be obvious. *cough* Forlorn *cough* People who want the quick DM style combat, go play *wait for it* <i>Combat</i>. Maybe reason why it called <i>combat</i>? Oh wait, I must be wrong... Jeeze what was I thinking.
so predictable.
get fades as soon as humanly possible with regen.
comm saves for jps so that rambos can go to a hive and kill it with medspam and ammospam.
end of gaem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From that description is sounds like NS (clan or pub) hasn't changed much since 1.04
Play on servers like Lunixmonster & you'll see the difference. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is in the span of 15 minutes.
in 1.04, rts were actually important. now you have rfk, and thats all you pretty much need. i hope they take out rfk and make trs important to hold.
You basically have a bunch of incompetetant pubbers on both teams, with the exception of a good fade and a good commander.
The commander can't hold jack squat because his marines don't follow orders, and the aliens all run around like bumbling idoits building whatever they can find open ground, meanwhile there is a good fade who is kicking butt but is unable to hold ground because he simply cannot overpower 9 marines who bumrush a hive.
The fade, most likely a good player, will eventually grow very very tired of the boring repetetive pub play and stop pubbing. Meanwhile the commander is like "OMG WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU MORONS!!!! EUUUUGHHGHGH!!" He won't comm pubs for awhile after that.
However, the other 18 players will be like 'OMG liek this is so kewl we killed teh hive!! again!! and again! OMG there it goes another hive!!!"
It won't be long untill the pubbers grow tired of games that play themselves out because no one has any idea of how to finish it quickly.
The end <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm let's see....18 players satisfied with the experience, ready and willing to do it again....2 players unhappy. Sounds like a good game to me. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And actually if I were the com or fade, and I have been both the com of the noob marines and the sole non-walker fade, I'd just have fun with it. I'd experiment with catpacks, I would find the single rambo who knew the map (because statistically speaking you can't get a team of 7 complete nubs, unless you walked in on a ns-guide game....) and practice getting marines through heavily-oced areas. If I were the fade, I'd get practice blink-swipe-meta-blink etc. I'd battlegorge. I'd constantly xeno. I'd follow one guy around as a cloaked skulk and chuckle repeatedly until he **** his pants. I'd try to get 20 charge, stomp, or AR kills. There's always something to do.
The objective is NOT, I repeat NOT to play well, to win, or to impress anybody.
The objective is to have fun goddammit, and I don't give a damn how the game plays out as long as it's enjoyable.
If the marines and the aliens were both all experts, playing at 100% to win the game, it'd be unenjoyable because one single error would immediately be capitalized on by the other team. That's too much pressure for a pub game. Not to say clan games aren't fun, they're just fun for other reasons. You play to win there, and everyone knows that the objective is to win at all costs, not to just have fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, the other 18 players will be like 'OMG liek this is so kewl we killed teh hive!! again!! and again! OMG there it goes another hive!!!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Egg - f**ing - zactly!
Kill that hive! Again! Again! They got another up in sub! Get there get there gogogo! (Notice the com didn't turret farm up sub, makes for much better games imo, though of course there's the possibility you'll LOSE. The suspense makes it interesting)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It won't be long untill the pubbers grow tired of games that play themselves out because no one has any idea of how to finish it quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Games that play themselves out" != "running back and forth between hives and chokepoints".
A game that played itself out would be the marine team rushing to a hive, turret farming it, kicking the aliens out of the second hive location, turret farming, then winning 20 minutes later. That's not fun. The aliens made one mistake by giving up the second hive, and they are punished with 20 minutes of boredom? No, just no. Now, suppose we change something around so the aliens didn't get pounded in the first 4 minutes of the game. I'm going to say nerf turrets, just as an example. With turrets nerfed, a pack of skulk with regen and/or gorge backup can take down one or two turrets in a couple of passes, then they can clear the hive, the gorge can put up the hive, etc.
Or we could buff skulks, so they don't get pushed out of hives so easily.
Or we could put in unchained chambers, so early skulks will actually get some benefits from upgrades.
Or we could buff lerks, in case no one has the res to fade the aliens aren't completely screwed.
Reduce crackjumping.
Make ocs cost less.
Make the res flow for aliens proportional to the number of players.
Swap leap and parasite, make parasite give more info about the player and make leap cost more energy.
Remove ping of death, replace with a vote system to slay the last 2 aliens left alive with no hive left, so a good skulk/lerk (fades are useless without blink) might acquire enough res to put up a hive. (Don't think it's impossible, I did it as a gorge trapped alone in cc hive with 4 ocs, 3 dcs, an sc and a mc (unchained server), with the res tower of course. I held out against 4 jp marines long enough to put up the hive. Why they didn't siege is beyond me, but it was still fun for all involved.)
See, plenty of things that can increase the margin of error for the aliens. High stress situations do not lend themselves well to pub games, because inevitably there will be some players who aren't as good or who aren't playing at 100%. THAT's where all this animosity towards new players comes from, because one new player can spoil the fun for 18 others. When I want a real game I pug, but if I go on a pub and get so stressed that I end up yelling at some 13 year old kid who's just trying something new.....it's just sad.....
Actually I'm pretty sure has copyrighted, or at least trademarked, NS.
Some days ago I had a 2+ hour game of awesomeness. It was on an unchained server tho...
In the end, it was mostly because the other side started relaxing after finishing something major, like in our case putting up a third hive(which ended up being a second hive, as the first one died. This happened twice. The other two times the replacement hive was put up shortly after another had died.), or in the marines case "putting down" a hive.
It never got down to one side playing with the other really. The marines made their valiant last stand, with turrets and all, but we prevailed.
Funny thing, without unchained it wouldn't have happened since the skulks would have been 'murdelizedx9999' if it weren't for being able to be in range of a sensory, yet have silence. While the onos and fades got regen. I think I saw 2 onos and 5 fades in that game(not at the same time). Man those fades stayed alive for long.
So uh, yeah, longer games can definitely be a lot better than quick games ever are, in terms of satisfaction with the round. Since the game is long though, you can't just say "its more fun", since when you're under the other side in tech or res control, it's not fun to get pwned while the gorges set up RTs to bring you back up.
Add to this the mentioned HA train in front of the hive. They will have those 40 res back in a few seconds from RFK and they can't be stopped anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, the other 18 players will be like 'OMG liek this is so kewl we killed teh hive!! again!! and again! OMG there it goes another hive!!!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
18 players have fun. 2 players don't have fun.
Make games shorter. It's much more important to please those two players.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It won't be long untill the pubbers grow tired of games that play themselves out because no one has any idea of how to finish it quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly this happens at the moment. Pubbers grow tired... of short games. Maybe some people haven't realized yet because they are busy playing their precious clan matches but pub games are decided in the first minutes and the chance of a comeback is close to NULL.
Striker, have you even asked about the reason those two players didn't have fun?
Good point.
<!--QuoteBegin-align+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (align)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In response to agentx5
Actually I'm pretty sure has copyrighted, or at least trademarked, NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just call me x5, forums have a habit of being prejudiced at my two character name. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I was just being highly sarcastic there m8, but as a matter of fact I'm not sure if any HL mod can file for a copyright as they are technically the property of valve. It's an unwritten rule that modders don't jack off each others mods. I could be wrong, but I think that's how it is.
so predictable.
get fades as soon as humanly possible with regen.
comm saves for jps so that rambos can go to a hive and kill it with medspam and ammospam.
end of gaem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From that description is sounds like NS (clan or pub) hasn't changed much since 1.04
Play on servers like Lunixmonster & you'll see the difference. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is in the span of 15 minutes.
in 1.04, rts were actually important. now you have rfk, and thats all you pretty much need. i hope they take out rfk and make trs important to hold. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What?
In 1.04 you could go off your base RT, tech up to JP/HMG in under 5 min and solo their first hive in 2.5 HMG clips. What a great game! RT's meant so much, you didn't need them!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Play on servers like Lunixmonster & you'll see the difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure what kind of difference you are talking about here...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hmm let's see....18 players satisfied with the experience, ready and willing to do it again....2 players unhappy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
18 players have fun. 2 players don't have fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You guys are missing my point:
- The 2 people are the best players on the team. The ONLY reason the 18 other noobs had fun was preciously because they had the 1 good player on each team WHO MADE IT FUN, by PLAYING GOOD, and bothering to get GOOD at the game.
Without those two good players, the game would be this:
- Skulks and marines slaughter each other. Both have hard time to hold ground. Within the first 3 minutes, you can tell who is going to win just by juding the general suckiness of each team - the team that actually remembers to cap more nodes, or does something out of the random like get armor 1 upgrade, is going to win.
The #1 pub games have degraded, is preciously because the game now drives itself away from the good players who previously made it fun to play. Remove those 2 good players, whose feelings couldn't possibly matter in the big scheme of things, and you have a game that doesn't have comebacks or any sort of fun to it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The objective is NOT, I repeat NOT to play well, to win, or to impress anybody.
The objective is to have fun goddammit, and I don't give a damn how the game plays out as long as it's enjoyable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Winning is always fun, whereas losing is only sometimes fun. Most of the time though the reason people play games is to win. Enough with "Play to have fun, not win" garbage because you ignoring truth.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So uh, yeah, longer games can definitely be a lot better than quick games ever are, in terms of satisfaction with the round. Since the game is long though, you can't just say "its more fun", since when you're under the other side in tech or res control, it's not fun to get pwned while the gorges set up RTs to bring you back up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Long games aren't more fun, because the reason it lasted so was due to a few good players who are able to keep the other team at bay. It may be fun for the fools who think they are doing something for the larger effort, when in reality the kills are going to one player who will by the end of the game have over 70 kills.
This meaning that you are <b>not</b> in a stalemate, trying to break a turtle for 30+ minutes, or one of the teams is not killing the hive/cc on purpose. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If one of the above things happens it makes the game very unenjoyable for at least one of the teams. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I started playing NS during the version 2 days and I remember some very dynamic and epic battles. I am not saying we should go back to 2.0 because I am a very firm believer that NS should be moving forward, but I agree that the longer game time aspect should be brought back in some way.
When I read this thread I found 1 major reaccuring thing in most of the post made by people who want longer games. That is: place more importance on RT's
I think a good way to do this would be to:
1). <u>REMOVE RFK</u> - This takes away from the importance of RT's, and causes classic to be much more kill, kill, kill oriented (not necessarily a bad thing just not for classic) than the strategic tactical shooter that I first found NS to be.
2). <u>Lengthen research times</u> - This would just naturally make the games longer and makes comming marines more of the smart mans job than rushing through the tech tree. Comms would have to think "do I need upgrade X or do I need upgrade Y because by the time upgrade X is done researching I may have wished I'd gone for Y". Now in the current version you can get X in such a short amount of time that if it turns out you need Y you can get it too.
3). (may not be necesary) <u>Make research cost more res</u> - puts yet more importance on RT's and lengthens the game time naturally, but may not be needed depending on other changes made.
Sorry for the long post, I'll stop rambling now. If you actually read all of this then I thank you. I think these are <b>just a few</b> of the ways to accomplish longer game times. If you disagree I would like to hear your opinions please do not flame me.
How do you know they are the most skilled ones?
<span style='color:yellow'>and btw, all of you please read this post found in I&S from zunni.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=80849#' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...howtopic=80849#</a></span>
How do you know they are the most skilled ones?
<span style='color:yellow'>and btw, all of you please read this post found in I&S from zunni.
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=80849#' target='_blank'>http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/in...howtopic=80849#</a></span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed.
Wort wort wort. Already there <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That guy has got balls to post a "weaken" suggestion. Historically very unpopular thing to suggest.
~edit~
Yes, I am accusing Flayra of not having the best interests of the NS community in mind. Not a bad thing, but a thing that needs to be brought to his attention.
How do you know they are the most skilled ones? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
errr... because I said so in the original scenerio I made up?
It shouldn't be a 'balls' question... people should be free to bring up whatever (with a little sense) comes up their mind, it's like 'collettive brainstorming'. But people flame because they think they are all right. So it's a balls question. "Will the guy resist inside his rags flame suit?"
Sorry for the hi-jack.
On to the topic.
O_o
I thought it all started on the game report some guy posted earlier, the one with the 8 hives killed.
edit: uh lol, right. I messed up <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What we, the pubbers, are saying here is that if we want short games of NS, we will go and play Combat, but if we're going to play Classic, we want to have a game where a team can recover from losing a hive, where the fate of the Kharaa does not depend on DC's and an uber-Fade, and where the average skulk has a chance against the average marine. That means the games need to take longer, which is why this topic exists. We want comebacks, we want a game with odd twists and turns, we want a game wherein the game is not decided in 5 minutes, where a team that makes a mistake can recover from it.
I'm sick of classic in the current version. Very sick of it. I loved playing early versions of NS because the games were seriously dynamic, even down to a noob vs noob level.
Your "18 bad, 2 good" scenario is simply a product of your own personal bias against pubbers. I've not gone into a single game where that is the case.
The most fun game of NS I ever played was a game I lost. Fun and winning are not always synonomous, and that is our point. We want a game that is not drawn out, like many of the games today, but a game that is long because it is balanced and uncompressed. The gameplay of the current version is compressed, with the devs speeding up the process with things like RFK, faster and cheaper research times, etc. Slow it down, allow for some more mistakes, balance out the alien classes in comparison to their marine counterparts, etc.
What a shock: the RTS element might actually require more thought.
Totally agree.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it's like 'collettive brainstorming'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thus why I suggested making and I&S wiki for NS...
Anyways I stand by my reply posts in that thread. No need to reiterate over and over.
Really? Winning is always fun? That's why the most popular "strategy" right now is to turret farm as many key locations as possible until you have enough res from rfk and the 2/3 rts you hold to kill the last hive? Yeah....fun.... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->