<!--QuoteBegin-Cold-NiTe+Sep 25 2004, 05:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold-NiTe @ Sep 25 2004, 05:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Red Wizard+Sep 24 2004, 11:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Red Wizard @ Sep 24 2004, 11:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-V-MAN+Sep 25 2004, 12:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (V-MAN @ Sep 25 2004, 12:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> /me wonders how long it will take the anime fanboys to start going on about mechs being equiped with magic armour that resists rpgs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You mean like explosive-reactive armor the Russians use on their tanks? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That would be even more ownage if you could post a link to it so I can read more about it. Sounds really interesting. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's old news tbh the Soviets were using it when they invaded Afghanistan it's cheaper to use than ceramic armour so that's why they use it.
UK and the US use ceramic armour cos it's better but it's more expensive.
<!--QuoteBegin-V-MAN+Sep 25 2004, 01:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (V-MAN @ Sep 25 2004, 01:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That is neither magic nor able to resist multiple rpgs....once it explodes it's used up, it's not even armour really it's just a carpet of blocks that contain explosives that go off when a projectile hits them.
Besides advances in anti tank rockets have made explosive reactive armour useless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it's not magic, but it still defeats most infantry-delivered anti-vehicular weapons. Yes, there are TOW and Air-Ground missiles that are made to defeat it, but those are predominantly larger missiles.
Regardless, it still allows an armored vehicle a much increased rate of survival when, say, ambushed in an urban setting by guerrillas with RPGs.
<!--QuoteBegin-Red Wizard+Sep 25 2004, 05:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Red Wizard @ Sep 25 2004, 05:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-V-MAN+Sep 25 2004, 01:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (V-MAN @ Sep 25 2004, 01:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That is neither magic nor able to resist multiple rpgs....once it explodes it's used up, it's not even armour really it's just a carpet of blocks that contain explosives that go off when a projectile hits them.
Besides advances in anti tank rockets have made explosive reactive armour useless. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it's not magic, but it still defeats most infantry-delivered anti-vehicular weapons. Yes, there are TOW and Air-Ground missiles that are made to defeat it, but those are predominantly larger missiles.
Regardless, it still allows an armored vehicle a much increased rate of survival when, say, ambushed in an urban setting by guerrillas with RPGs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> tbh a tank shouldn't be in an urban area to get ambushed by gurillas with rpgs just about everyone learned the dangers of using tanks in built up areas in WW2 <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
yeah era gived a tank some degree of survivabilaty vs the rpg, but the average soldier equiped with one will have enough for 3-4 reloads plus a tank cannot be completely covered in era.
<!--QuoteBegin-V-MAN+Sep 25 2004, 01:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (V-MAN @ Sep 25 2004, 01:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> tbh a tank shouldn't be in an urban area to get ambushed by gurillas with rpgs just about everyone learned the dangers of using tanks in built up areas in WW2 <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
yeah era gived a tank some degree of survivabilaty vs the rpg, but the average soldier equiped with one will have enough for 3-4 reloads plus a tank cannot be completely covered in era. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Which brings us back to the subject of a smaller, powered armor/exoskeleton for use in urban combat situations. I'm not saying a 3-story tall walker is a feasible weapon, but smaller scale powered armors are.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Perdition Flamethrower+Sep 24 2004, 09:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Perdition Flamethrower @ Sep 24 2004, 09:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sure, a Mechwarrior style machine would not work too well today. But could you imagine if we managed to pull off a full on Mechwarrior MadCat or something? I recall being able to raze cities and vaporize most everything that wasn't another mech with little trouble at all. Hell, most land vehicles you could just <i>walk</i> over. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> even if you had a "full-on" mech, a simple 120mm APFSDS round from the main cannon of an M1A1 would remove a leg.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zig+Sep 25 2004, 01:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Sep 25 2004, 01:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> even if you had a "full-on" mech, a simple 120mm APFSDS round from the main cannon of an M1A1 would remove a leg. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seeing as how mid-to-heavy weight Mechwarrior universe mechs can take multiple Gauss Rifle shots to the limbs (all in the Mechwarrior universe, mind you), I doubt the Abrams's main cannon would fare much better.
Then again, we <i>are</i> talking about comparing real life to a science fiction environment populated by such things as "endo-steel", "ferro-fibrous armor", and "Particle Projection Cannons"... >_>
<!--QuoteBegin-Perdition Flamethrower+Sep 24 2004, 10:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Perdition Flamethrower @ Sep 24 2004, 10:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sure, a Mechwarrior style machine would not work too well today. But could you imagine if we managed to pull off a full on Mechwarrior MadCat or something? I recall being able to raze cities and vaporize most everything that wasn't another mech with little trouble at all. Hell, most land vehicles you could just <i>walk</i> over. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Aside from the fact that they're, you know, <i>shooting </i>at you. And they supposedly would have as good of weapons as your mech. Plus, they have a much bigger target (you) and less weak points.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Red Wizard+Sep 24 2004, 09:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Red Wizard @ Sep 24 2004, 09:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Zig+Sep 25 2004, 01:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Sep 25 2004, 01:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> even if you had a "full-on" mech, a simple 120mm APFSDS round from the main cannon of an M1A1 would remove a leg. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seeing as how mid-to-heavy weight Mechwarrior universe mechs can take multiple Gauss Rifle shots to the limbs (all in the Mechwarrior universe, mind you), I doubt the Abrams's main cannon would fare much better.
Then again, we <i>are</i> talking about comparing real life to a science fiction environment populated by such things as "endo-steel", "ferro-fibrous armor", and "Particle Projection Cannons"... >_> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> physics dictate that a 120mm projectile flying that fast and striking armor that isn't a foot thick (or more?) = pwnt
Well, I was thinking that eventually we might be able to manipulate electrical fields enough that we could slow the movement of metallic projectles (...electricity would work on other projectiles as well, but metals would work best). Since you could just have the field try and magnetize the tank/mech/armored cars surface with one charge and then try to project a field to charge incoming and outgoing objects with the same charge.
I don't think it would be able to support a human operator or computer chips though, so it'd be pretty impossible unless you want to throw a few inches of electromagnetic blocking material in there which would weigh tons and you would basically be a big sitting block.
Which would pretty much make the whole thing pointless, because you're a big block, and we can already drop a big block of metal onto a battlefield.
...So I don't know why I bothered writing this.
3 meters is the tallest you're going to want something in direct combat to be (so, not MLRS carriers and portable communications trucks and stuff, since they're not in combat). Anything more and you have a really big profile. I think we might get soldiers encased in assisting exoskeletons which could envelope the entire soldier. That'd be the closest you'd get to mechs. It'd still be mostly human powered (just assist in lifting the weight of armor and the suit). You'd need to make it incredibly strong or incredibly easy to exit though...incase it gets too beat up or breaks down.
[I'd also like to point out the invention of the [useless] Segway, which might have an impact on how well a Mech could balance (but they're still unfeasible)]
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--QuoteBegin-UltimaGecko+Sep 24 2004, 10:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UltimaGecko @ Sep 24 2004, 10:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, I was thinking that eventually we might be able to manipulate electrical fields enough that we could slow the movement of metallic projectles (...electricity would work on other projectiles as well, but metals would work best). Since you could just have the field try and magnetize the tank/mech/armored cars surface with one charge and then try to project a field to charge incoming and outgoing objects with the same charge. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> it would take SO much energy to stop a shell in that way, within... what kind of range? a few feet? a few yards? SO much energy.. like, enough to power a nuclear sub for a few minutes or something..
I'd like to interject another point about the military application of mechs.
An army of remote-controlled robotic bipeds is far more threatening than a group of soldiers. Sort of the principle of a "faceless enemy". Theres just something unwholesome about fighting something that, while technically controlled by a human, is, for the most part, a tireless, super-strong immortal.
What I think would be interesting is to create mechs like that, and give them the same AI as a FPS AI, but give the group as a whole an AI from a RTS, and see how they fair against a group of similairly armed humans.
<!--QuoteBegin-OttoDestruct+Sep 25 2004, 05:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OttoDestruct @ Sep 25 2004, 05:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Sep 24 2004, 11:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Sep 24 2004, 11:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Feh. The silly thing about this argument is, anyone who's played the Mechwarrior series (and is any good) will tell you that the fastest way to cripple a mech is to blow a leg off it.
Other than that, let's not get mixed up between mechs and mechanised body armour. Mechs would be a variant on armour (as in, tanks), whereas body armour is an infantry upgrade. I can see a lot of use for powered, armoured, computerised suits, but very little for full mechs.
Oh, and if anime had any say in it, they'd be trying to get the damn things to fly (and be claiming that they'd be more effective than conventional aircraft!) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually I once while playing Mechwarrior 3 online, I got a headshot on a guy from over 1000 meters away with an ER PPC (actually it was two of them in link fire), a feat thats next to impossible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wouldn't call "a feat that's next to impossible" "the fastest way" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
..
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I think would be interesting is to create mechs like that, and give them the same AI as a FPS AI, but give the group as a whole an AI from a RTS, and see how they fair against a group of similairly armed humans.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> You're kidding, right? Most FPS AI is dumber than a sack of mud, first of all, and second of all, have you seen <i>any</i> movie with AI-controlled killing machines in it? It never ends well <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
ROBOTS are not the same as mechs.. there can be a mech robot, but it's a ROBOT primarily.. and an army of robots, while cool, is not something i'd like to see used by the US. the US military is the nation's pride, it's most disciplined, sharpest, strongest men and women, made for war. the human aspect is important to me, anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zig+Sep 25 2004, 04:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Sep 25 2004, 04:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ROBOTS are not the same as mechs.. there can be a mech robot, but it's a ROBOT primarily.. and an army of robots, while cool, is not something i'd like to see used by the US. the US military is the nation's pride, it's most disciplined, sharpest, strongest men and women, made for war. the human aspect is important to me, anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> While the US military prides itself in its brave men and women, it also prides itself in not wasting them recklesly. Robotic and remote-operated combat drones help achieve that goal.
I would personally feel safer with remote-operated drones than AI-controlled ones, but that has more to do with my mistrust of AI systems than anything else.
i read something about the computerpower you would need for the gyros to balance a leged walker machine.. ahm...
human brain + inner ear = better than every gyro .
a mechwarrior styled machine would need them.. because the pilot is not really the operating part.. he got pedals, a joystick..some blinky lights , displays.. he cant really adjust himself to the balance of the machine.. otherwise like said such machines are most inpractical.
the power asissted full body exoskeleton dont need any gyros. the operator himself is the gyro and the motion coordination system.
i really think the same way as Mr.Headcrab . look at the past and you will see how technology could evolve over the years.
a few years ago the Honda robot learned to walk.. some years later the next honda robot ws finished, with a even more complex balance and walk system. if one of those fall over they cannot stand up on their own again... some more years later , apeared sonys Q-RIO robot out of nowhere.
he seems like a very expensive toy, but he is a milestone in the robotics science ,the most amazing thing ive ever seen..
q-rio doesnt move anymore like you think a robot movement would be, its smooth, its dynamic... its the closest thing to a human ive ever seen..
when you try to push it over, it adjust his stance like you would do... when its tripping or falling over, it is able to get up from every position, by analyzing its position after falling and calculating the best way to get up again.
he even prevents himself from gettng damaged when falling by trying to brake his fall with his arms, like a human would do <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
it can handle rough terrain, steps, diferent floorlevels on every feet, it can jump, it can balance on one feet, its even able to dance, with a movement , that makes you think sometimes "theres a dood inside" the whole qrio system is based on sonys own Intelligent Servo Actuator (ISA) system, specialy developed for this robot.
heres a short description of the ISA servo from the qrio page --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"QRIO can walk on two feet and dance dynamically. To make its arms and legs strong, and yet able to move fluidly, it was necessary to develop an entirely new joint actuator. The realization of this Intelligent Servo Actuator (ISA) made it possible to build a robot with compact body design that could move its body smoothly and dynamically.
[ ISA - Actuator ] In order for QRIO to walk and dance so skillfully, an actuator was needed with the ability to produce varying levels of torque at varying rpm speeds, respond with quickness and agility, not be affected by outside forces -- and do all of this efficiently. We found a way to make a smaller actuator with broadly improved function and precision. In addition, QRIO's gears are precise, quiet, and highly dependable. [ ISA - Sensors ] QRIO's ISA system detects the current position of its joints and, based on the posture of QRIO's body, drives the joints to their calculated target position. In addition, it determines the maximum amount of torque applied to the actuators and calculates the corresponding rise in temperature to allow QRIO to move about safely.
[ ISA - Controller ] QRIO's ISA has a built-in governing computer, through which it responds quickly to requests for control commands by the bipedal robot's actuators. We used the latest microchip and software technology to make the system as small as possible. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the walking of q-rio doesnt follow a predefined pattern like the hondarobot , its dynamic, and able to hold its balance ,even when the surface conditions are changing from one second to another. the sony doods can better describe their way how qrio can do that: ________________________________________________________________________
QRIO moves with "dynamic walking". "Static walking" means the robot keeps its center of gravity within the zone of stability -- when the robot is standing on one foot, its center of gravity falls within the sole of that foot, and when it is standing on two feet it falls within a multi-sided shape created by those two feet -- causing it to walk relatively slowly. In "dynamic walking", on the other hand, the center of gravity is not limited to the zone of stability -- in fact it often moves outside of it as the robot walks. People move using "dynamic walking".
QRIO senses the pressure on the soles of the feet and the attitude of the robot's body to determine the condition of the walking surface, and adapt to changes in the surrounding environment. QRIO's underlying movement control method is based on the Zero Moment Point (ZMP), the point where the combined forces of gravity and inertia working on the robot intersect with the ground. The control system directs QRIO's movement so that its ZMP is always within its zone of stability. It also senses the pressure on the soles of the feet and the attitude of the robot's body to determine the condition of the walking surface, and adapt to changes in the surrounding environment. Using a holistic movement control system that controls the movement of the robot's body based on this data, QRIO is able to walk and move dynamically and stably.
How is QRIO able to walk on an uneven surface, or one whose slope suddenly changes? It is equipped with technology that uses a wide range of sensors to detect changes in the walking surface and respond accordingly. QRIO determines the condition of the walking surface using four pressure sensors in the sole of each foot to gather data on the amount of force being received from the walking surface. For example, when the foot touches an uneven surface, the sensors detect the slope of the ground; the foot is placed down in accord with the slope; and the attitude of the body is adjusted using data from position sensors so that the robot maintains a stable position as it moves. It can adjust to disparities in elevation up to 1 cm, and slopes up to 10 degrees.
+ FEATURE If pushed by someone, QRIO will take a step in the direction it was pushed to keep from falling over. The control system senses that it has been pushed through the pressure sensors in the soles of its feet and its position sensors, and acts to maintain stability. It can detect an outside force acting on it from front, back, right or left.
If pushed by someone, QRIO will take a step in the direction it was pushed to keep from falling over. In addition, it determines when responding to an outside force will be difficult, and immediately ceases all body motion (fall avoidance). QRIO1
+ FEATURE When QRIO determines that its actions will not prevent a fall, it instinctively sticks out its arms, swivels its hips, and assumes an impact position. At the same time, the control system instantaneously commands the servos in the joint actuators to relax slightly. In this way it lessens the shock of the fall, enabling it to survive unscathed.
QRIO is programmed to check its position after a fall, turn itself face up, and recover from a variety of prone positions. QRIO is also programmed to check its position after a fall, turn itself face up, and recover from a variety of prone positions.
ok..the qrio system is not perfect yet, but i think its a large jump in smooth moving actuator technology.
our current manipulator actuator systems are entirely based on electric harmonic motors, hydraulics (ewww <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) , pneumatics... you could say Q-rio is already using a next generation system, but there is already a another system, based on bionics. single fibers called E.D.M. made of composite materials who are able to contract 1 1/2 times of their lenght when a small electric current is applied. the single fiber isnt very strong, just can lift very small wheights, and is relative expensive to produce. because at the time there is no real use for them.
there are experiments to improve the output of edm?s with low electrical currents, like putting lots of edm?s together to a "artificial muscle".. yeah..muscle, thats the word that will replace "motor" "servo" "hydraulic"
theres also a new kind of joints. regular joints are stiff, unflexible, just able to move on one axis..you could say..use a ball joint ..to reduce friction, ball joints and regular joints using ball bearings , or slide bearings. they dont react well to stress and shocks applied on a radial level.. after a tme the ball bearings wear out..
a new kind of bearing is the electromagnetic bearing. a capsule filled with a special fluid , that reacts to electrical current (i dont know what this fluid is called), centered in this liquid is a ball containing a field coil wich produces a relative low magnetic field, wich is getting inducted by the liquid and the outer shell and pruducing a current. this liquid got a very cool behavior , it stiffens when you apply electric power, its turning into a jelly, when removing the current, its turning to a oil like liquid again.. if more stress is detected, by sensors in the feed, this joint is able to create shock absorbing measures by putting more current into the specific joint, the liquid also acts as coolant, and lubricant for the joint.. its almost like a biological one.
in combination with edm?s you would be able to build a endoskeleton, as platform for a exoskeleton..huh..thats kinda paradox <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
just imagin.. a qrio based system, equiped with next generation actuator technology like edm?s, and emb?s , strap a human in front of him , who is replacing the "i go into this direction" computer" ( the motion coordination system could assist the operator like a "fly by wire" system.. lol..omg.. a "walk by wire system" enforce the whole system with armor . whoa.. even when a limb is getting penetrated by something relative small, it rips apart just some of the EDM fibers, the rest would be still operational... if you hit a regular servo or hydraulic = pwnt
ok.. this system would be able to carry its own wheigt, hold balance, carry some cargo... what cargo?
think about firefighting.. a single firefighter equiped with one of those things. build in cooling system, ceramic armor,life support systems, a relative big watertank on his back, and one of those new air powered watercanons..
or a salvage machine for confirmed space.. remove the armor and the whole other crap, and add rescue equipment to it, noone would be able to get there.
cargo handling (what a cliche)
and some peoples will say now.. this things are heavy for sure.. russian scientists have discovered in the mid 80?s a nice effect when looking for something complete different (^_^) yeah..thats science.
they discovered a anormal gravity reduction within, and around a superconductor coil.. the lead scientist was smoking a pipe, and realized the smoke was behaving very strange next to that coil . after some research they have calculated a very interresting phenomenon, the coil reduced its own wheight by partly canceling the gravity. (??) a milestone in anti gravity research (maybe the point where it was getting born)...
the effect is far away to be such effective to be practicaly used.. it just canceled about 0,3 % of its own wheight and produced a small field in its surounding.. thats enough to manipulate pipesmoke . they used very crappy superconductors... the ones that have to be cooled down with nitrogen to -200 degrees celsius, but the superconductor reseach improves , and there are already prototypes of room temperature super conductors .. ok.. they just keep their ability on a lenght of some centimeters, but its a start, and i think it would be cool for the cpu technology.. wheee..nomore cpu coolers ..
if those doods are able to improve this coil in the next 20-50 years, to improve its output to atleast 20.. maybe 30 % , a effective way to reduce wheight would be found .. just strap a coil into every limb. even if it gets defective you still would be able to move, you just would be a bit heavier.
who knows what comes in 100 years but im a little bit scared that mr. shirow already knowed this stuff more than 15 years ago... he even mentioned a thing called "hermes field coil" once, a device able to cancel gravity to be used in exo suits to make them lighter (?_?)
"you can not copy the nature, but you can try to imitate her" this is the motto of bionic , the way to imitate the nature ...
<!--QuoteBegin-sheena yanai+Sep 25 2004, 04:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sheena yanai @ Sep 25 2004, 04:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='color:white'>You DON'T need to quote the entire post. Sheesh. --coil</span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not always true. They mention somewhere in Battletech (the novels that spawned the mechwarrior games which I played addictively for 5 years before NS) I states that theres a matrix-ish plug that is inserted into the skull to allow for a sense of balance.
Even though giant walking mechs would be sweet its more logical to use wheels.
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Sep 25 2004, 05:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Sep 25 2004, 05:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They mention somewhere in Battletech (the novels that spawned the mechwarrior games which I played addictively for 5 years before NS) I states that theres a matrix-ish plug that is inserted into the skull to allow for a sense of balance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The clan archives in Mechwarrior 2 said that Clan mechwarriors wear bulky helmets, and Inner Sphere mech pilots wear nets. Both of which seemed to get what they need from the pilot's brain without poking holes in it.
(Not that they're necessarily faithful to the novels, of course).
I have not read much furtherin this thread but note the iBot and the Segway (don't laugh) already are quite impressive examples of mechanized devices synergizing with human motion (sorry I have been on the alcohol lately and consequently I can no longer form coherent phrases)
Just to clarify my position <!--QuoteBegin-"_.:Firestorm:._"+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ("_.:Firestorm:._")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Powered Armor is likely, but not Mechwarriors.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
Most people who suggest that mechs will never see battlefield use are correct, but for the wrong reasons.
Mechs are unlikely to see use simply because air power is the deciding factor in modern warfare. Building any vehicle is going to be less and less likely as all you're doing is making a bigger target for a hellfire or a maverick.
Currently we're seeing an increasing emphasis on advanced infantry systems and robotic vehicles. What we'll most likely end up with is robotic tanks and powered infantry who move in when the dust settles. The reason for that is political and has nothing to do with technology.
Current military development and technology is being directed towards relatively low intensity police actions. There's no point developing weaponry for a conventional war that no one is going to fight.
Despite all the naysayers, there's a chance we'll see manned walker vehicles in use one day, simply because they're more effective in urban environments. Tanks are useless in built up areas and most of the world now lives in cities. Finally walkers, due to their anthropomorphic nature, are psychologically more intimidating, which is a valuable tool in counter-revolutionary warfare.
If air power is going to be the future of warfare, I think Id like to have a transformig fighter jet. Will my robotech dream come true? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Sub zer0+Apr 13 2005, 08:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sub zer0 @ Apr 13 2005, 08:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What about the army of gorge's how will we counter this growing threat from afar? they will web mecks feet thus why ns has no mechs <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> seriously.... get a life <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-sheena yanai+Apr 13 2005, 06:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sheena yanai @ Apr 13 2005, 06:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sub zer0+Apr 13 2005, 08:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sub zer0 @ Apr 13 2005, 08:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What about the army of gorge's how will we counter this growing threat from afar? they will web mecks feet thus why ns has no mechs <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> seriously.... get a life <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OOooh. Dis.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Apr 13 2005, 06:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Apr 13 2005, 06:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Finally walkers, due to their anthropomorphic nature, are psychologically more intimidating, which is a valuable tool in counter-revolutionary warfare. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Mmmm... I can already imagine walkers stomping down Washington gunning down civvies. Oh to be a dictator in America!
(no, this is not aimed at any specific president)
Also, I'm quite surprised no one has <a href='http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/06/0311236&from=rss' target='_blank'>posted</a> (cough DOOM cough) <a href='http://www.sakakibara-kikai.co.jp/products/other/LW.htm' target='_blank'>this</a> yet. Okay, so its more of a grandma shuffle than omgstompeverything but its still fun.
Who wants to be the first to trip up a walking mech by placing glof balls underneath its feet? I DO!
Also, I'm quite surprised no one has <a href='http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/06/0311236&from=rss' target='_blank'>posted</a> (cough DOOM cough) <a href='http://www.sakakibara-kikai.co.jp/products/other/LW.htm' target='_blank'>this</a> yet. Okay, so its more of a grandma shuffle than omgstompeverything but its still fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=81468&st=0#' target='_blank'>first page of this forum post, nub XD</a>
and its not exactly walking..it got rolls under its feet...
Why do the NS forums always have awesome interesting threads for me to read instead of doing homework?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I had a good hour of time to do some math this morning, but then I foolishly looked on here and my time got pwnt by this thread. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
You mean like explosive-reactive armor the Russians use on their tanks? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be even more ownage if you could post a link to it so I can read more about it. Sounds really interesting. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's old news tbh the Soviets were using it when they invaded Afghanistan it's cheaper to use than ceramic armour so that's why they use it.
UK and the US use ceramic armour cos it's better but it's more expensive.
Besides advances in anti tank rockets have made explosive reactive armour useless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it's not magic, but it still defeats most infantry-delivered anti-vehicular weapons. Yes, there are TOW and Air-Ground missiles that are made to defeat it, but those are predominantly larger missiles.
Regardless, it still allows an armored vehicle a much increased rate of survival when, say, ambushed in an urban setting by guerrillas with RPGs.
Besides advances in anti tank rockets have made explosive reactive armour useless. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it's not magic, but it still defeats most infantry-delivered anti-vehicular weapons. Yes, there are TOW and Air-Ground missiles that are made to defeat it, but those are predominantly larger missiles.
Regardless, it still allows an armored vehicle a much increased rate of survival when, say, ambushed in an urban setting by guerrillas with RPGs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
tbh a tank shouldn't be in an urban area to get ambushed by gurillas with rpgs just about everyone learned the dangers of using tanks in built up areas in WW2 <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
yeah era gived a tank some degree of survivabilaty vs the rpg, but the average soldier equiped with one will have enough for 3-4 reloads plus a tank cannot be completely covered in era.
yeah era gived a tank some degree of survivabilaty vs the rpg, but the average soldier equiped with one will have enough for 3-4 reloads plus a tank cannot be completely covered in era. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which brings us back to the subject of a smaller, powered armor/exoskeleton for use in urban combat situations. I'm not saying a 3-story tall walker is a feasible weapon, but smaller scale powered armors are.
even if you had a "full-on" mech, a simple 120mm APFSDS round from the main cannon of an M1A1 would remove a leg.
Seeing as how mid-to-heavy weight Mechwarrior universe mechs can take multiple Gauss Rifle shots to the limbs (all in the Mechwarrior universe, mind you), I doubt the Abrams's main cannon would fare much better.
Then again, we <i>are</i> talking about comparing real life to a science fiction environment populated by such things as "endo-steel", "ferro-fibrous armor", and "Particle Projection Cannons"... >_>
Aside from the fact that they're, you know, <i>shooting </i>at you. And they supposedly would have as good of weapons as your mech. Plus, they have a much bigger target (you) and less weak points.
Seeing as how mid-to-heavy weight Mechwarrior universe mechs can take multiple Gauss Rifle shots to the limbs (all in the Mechwarrior universe, mind you), I doubt the Abrams's main cannon would fare much better.
Then again, we <i>are</i> talking about comparing real life to a science fiction environment populated by such things as "endo-steel", "ferro-fibrous armor", and "Particle Projection Cannons"... >_> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
physics dictate that a 120mm projectile flying that fast and striking armor that isn't a foot thick (or more?) = pwnt
physics > mechwarrior universe
I don't think it would be able to support a human operator or computer chips though, so it'd be pretty impossible unless you want to throw a few inches of electromagnetic blocking material in there which would weigh tons and you would basically be a big sitting block.
Which would pretty much make the whole thing pointless, because you're a big block, and we can already drop a big block of metal onto a battlefield.
...So I don't know why I bothered writing this.
3 meters is the tallest you're going to want something in direct combat to be (so, not MLRS carriers and portable communications trucks and stuff, since they're not in combat). Anything more and you have a really big profile. I think we might get soldiers encased in assisting exoskeletons which could envelope the entire soldier. That'd be the closest you'd get to mechs. It'd still be mostly human powered (just assist in lifting the weight of armor and the suit). You'd need to make it incredibly strong or incredibly easy to exit though...incase it gets too beat up or breaks down.
[I'd also like to point out the invention of the [useless] Segway, which might have an impact on how well a Mech could balance (but they're still unfeasible)]
it would take SO much energy to stop a shell in that way, within... what kind of range? a few feet? a few yards? SO much energy.. like, enough to power a nuclear sub for a few minutes or something..
An army of remote-controlled robotic bipeds is far more threatening than a group of soldiers. Sort of the principle of a "faceless enemy". Theres just something unwholesome about fighting something that, while technically controlled by a human, is, for the most part, a tireless, super-strong immortal.
What I think would be interesting is to create mechs like that, and give them the same AI as a FPS AI, but give the group as a whole an AI from a RTS, and see how they fair against a group of similairly armed humans.
Other than that, let's not get mixed up between mechs and mechanised body armour. Mechs would be a variant on armour (as in, tanks), whereas body armour is an infantry upgrade. I can see a lot of use for powered, armoured, computerised suits, but very little for full mechs.
Oh, and if anime had any say in it, they'd be trying to get the damn things to fly (and be claiming that they'd be more effective than conventional aircraft!) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I once while playing Mechwarrior 3 online, I got a headshot on a guy from over 1000 meters away with an ER PPC (actually it was two of them in link fire), a feat thats next to impossible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't call "a feat that's next to impossible" "the fastest way" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
..
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I think would be interesting is to create mechs like that, and give them the same AI as a FPS AI, but give the group as a whole an AI from a RTS, and see how they fair against a group of similairly armed humans.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> You're kidding, right? Most FPS AI is dumber than a sack of mud, first of all, and second of all, have you seen <i>any</i> movie with AI-controlled killing machines in it? It never ends well <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
While the US military prides itself in its brave men and women, it also prides itself in not wasting them recklesly. Robotic and remote-operated combat drones help achieve that goal.
I would personally feel safer with remote-operated drones than AI-controlled ones, but that has more to do with my mistrust of AI systems than anything else.
human brain + inner ear = better than every gyro .
a mechwarrior styled machine would need them.. because the pilot is not really the operating part.. he got pedals, a joystick..some blinky lights , displays.. he cant really adjust himself to the balance of the machine.. otherwise like said such machines are most inpractical.
the power asissted full body exoskeleton dont need any gyros. the operator himself is the gyro and the motion coordination system.
i really think the same way as Mr.Headcrab . look at the past and you will see how technology could evolve over the years.
a few years ago the Honda robot learned to walk.. some years later the next honda robot ws finished, with a even more complex balance and walk system. if one of those fall over they cannot stand up on their own again...
some more years later , apeared sonys Q-RIO robot out of nowhere.
he seems like a very expensive toy,
but he is a milestone in the robotics science ,the most amazing thing ive ever seen..
q-rio doesnt move anymore like you think a robot movement would be, its smooth, its dynamic... its the closest thing to a human ive ever seen..
when you try to push it over, it adjust his stance like you would do... when its tripping or falling over, it is able to get up from every position, by analyzing its position after falling and calculating the best way to get up again.
he even prevents himself from gettng damaged when falling by trying to brake his fall with his arms, like a human would do <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
it can handle rough terrain, steps, diferent floorlevels on every feet, it can jump, it can balance on one feet, its even able to dance, with a movement , that makes you think sometimes "theres a dood inside" the whole qrio system is based on sonys own Intelligent Servo Actuator (ISA) system, specialy developed for this robot.
heres a short description of the ISA servo from the qrio page
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<img src='http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/QRIO/technology/img/tech01/headcopy.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
amazing..thats unreadable
"QRIO can walk on two feet and dance dynamically. To make its arms and legs strong, and yet able to move fluidly, it was necessary to develop an entirely new joint actuator. The realization of this Intelligent Servo Actuator (ISA) made it possible to build a robot with compact body design that could move its body smoothly and dynamically.
[ ISA - Actuator ]
In order for QRIO to walk and dance so skillfully, an actuator was needed with the ability to produce varying levels of torque at varying rpm speeds, respond with quickness and agility, not be affected by outside forces -- and do all of this efficiently. We found a way to make a smaller actuator with broadly improved function and precision. In addition, QRIO's gears are precise, quiet, and highly dependable. [ ISA - Sensors ]
QRIO's ISA system detects the current position of its joints and, based on the posture of QRIO's body, drives the joints to their calculated target position. In addition, it determines the maximum amount of torque applied to the actuators and calculates the corresponding rise in temperature to allow QRIO to move about safely.
[ ISA - Controller ]
QRIO's ISA has a built-in governing computer, through which it responds quickly to requests for control commands by the bipedal robot's actuators. We used the latest microchip and software technology to make the system as small as possible.
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the walking of q-rio doesnt follow a predefined pattern like the hondarobot , its dynamic, and able to hold its balance ,even when the surface conditions are changing from one second to another. the sony doods can better describe their way how qrio can do that:
________________________________________________________________________
QRIO moves with "dynamic walking". "Static walking" means the robot keeps its center of gravity within the zone of stability -- when the robot is standing on one foot, its center of gravity falls within the sole of that foot, and when it is standing on two feet it falls within a multi-sided shape created by those two feet -- causing it to walk relatively slowly. In "dynamic walking", on the other hand, the center of gravity is not limited to the zone of stability -- in fact it often moves outside of it as the robot walks. People move using "dynamic walking".
QRIO senses the pressure on the soles of the feet and the attitude of the robot's body to determine the condition of the walking surface, and adapt to changes in the surrounding environment. QRIO's underlying movement control method is based on the Zero Moment Point (ZMP), the point where the combined forces of gravity and inertia working on the robot intersect with the ground. The control system directs QRIO's movement so that its ZMP is always within its zone of stability. It also senses the pressure on the soles of the feet and the attitude of the robot's body to determine the condition of the walking surface, and adapt to changes in the surrounding environment. Using a holistic movement control system that controls the movement of the robot's body based on this data, QRIO is able to walk and move dynamically and stably.
How is QRIO able to walk on an uneven surface, or one whose slope suddenly changes? It is equipped with technology that uses a wide range of sensors to detect changes in the walking surface and respond accordingly. QRIO determines the condition of the walking surface using four pressure sensors in the sole of each foot to gather data on the amount of force being received from the walking surface. For example, when the foot touches an uneven surface, the sensors detect the slope of the ground; the foot is placed down in accord with the slope; and the attitude of the body is adjusted using data from position sensors so that the robot maintains a stable position as it moves. It can adjust to disparities in elevation up to 1 cm, and slopes up to 10 degrees.
<img src='http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/QRIO/technology/img/tech01/qrio_walk02.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
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<img src='http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/QRIO/technology/img/tech02/headcopy.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
01_Responding to Outside Forces
+ FEATURE
If pushed by someone, QRIO will take a step in the direction it was pushed to keep from falling over. The control system senses that it has been pushed through the pressure sensors in the soles of its feet and its position sensors, and acts to maintain stability. It can detect an outside force acting on it from front, back, right or left.
If pushed by someone, QRIO will take a step in the direction it was pushed to keep from falling over. In addition, it determines when responding to an outside force will be difficult, and immediately ceases all body motion (fall avoidance).
QRIO1
<img src='http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/QRIO/technology/img/tech02/qrio_walk01.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
02_Returning to an Upright Position
+ FEATURE
When QRIO determines that its actions will not prevent a fall, it instinctively sticks out its arms, swivels its hips, and assumes an impact position. At the same time, the control system instantaneously commands the servos in the joint actuators to relax slightly. In this way it lessens the shock of the fall, enabling it to survive unscathed.
QRIO is programmed to check its position after a fall, turn itself face up, and recover from a variety of prone positions. QRIO is also programmed to check its position after a fall, turn itself face up, and recover from a variety of prone positions.
ok..the qrio system is not perfect yet, but i think its a large jump in smooth moving actuator technology.
our current manipulator actuator systems are entirely based on electric harmonic motors, hydraulics (ewww <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) , pneumatics... you could say Q-rio is already using a next generation system, but there is already a another system, based on bionics.
single fibers called E.D.M. made of composite materials who are able to contract 1 1/2 times of their lenght when a small electric current is applied. the single fiber isnt very strong, just can lift very small wheights, and is relative expensive to produce. because at the time there is no real use for them.
there are experiments to improve the output of edm?s with low electrical currents, like putting lots of edm?s together to a "artificial muscle".. yeah..muscle, thats the word that will replace "motor" "servo" "hydraulic"
theres also a new kind of joints. regular joints are stiff, unflexible, just able to move on one axis..you could say..use a ball joint ..to reduce friction, ball joints and regular joints using ball bearings , or slide bearings. they dont react well to stress and shocks applied on a radial level.. after a tme the ball bearings wear out..
a new kind of bearing is the electromagnetic bearing. a capsule filled with a special fluid , that reacts to electrical current (i dont know what this fluid is called), centered in this liquid is a ball containing a field coil wich produces a relative low magnetic field, wich is getting inducted by the liquid and the outer shell and pruducing a current. this liquid got a very cool behavior , it stiffens when you apply electric power, its turning into a jelly, when removing the current, its turning to a oil like liquid again..
if more stress is detected, by sensors in the feed, this joint is able to create shock absorbing measures by putting more current into the specific joint, the liquid also acts as coolant, and lubricant for the joint.. its almost like a biological one.
in combination with edm?s you would be able to build a endoskeleton, as platform for a exoskeleton..huh..thats kinda paradox <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
just imagin.. a qrio based system, equiped with next generation actuator technology like edm?s, and emb?s , strap a human in front of him , who is replacing the "i go into this direction" computer" ( the motion coordination system could assist the operator like a "fly by wire" system.. lol..omg.. a "walk by wire system"
enforce the whole system with armor . whoa.. even when a limb is getting penetrated by something relative small, it rips apart just some of the EDM fibers, the rest would be still operational... if you hit a regular servo or hydraulic = pwnt
ok.. this system would be able to carry its own wheigt, hold balance, carry some cargo... what cargo?
think about firefighting.. a single firefighter equiped with one of those things.
build in cooling system, ceramic armor,life support systems, a relative big watertank on his back, and one of those new air powered watercanons..
or a salvage machine for confirmed space.. remove the armor and the whole other crap, and add rescue equipment to it, noone would be able to get there.
cargo handling (what a cliche)
and some peoples will say now.. this things are heavy for sure..
russian scientists have discovered in the mid 80?s a nice effect when looking for something complete different (^_^) yeah..thats science.
they discovered a anormal gravity reduction within, and around a superconductor coil.. the lead scientist was smoking a pipe, and realized the smoke was behaving very strange next to that coil . after some research they have calculated a very interresting phenomenon, the coil reduced its own wheight by partly canceling the gravity. (??) a milestone in anti gravity research (maybe the point where it was getting born)...
the effect is far away to be such effective to be practicaly used.. it just canceled about 0,3 % of its own wheight and produced a small field in its surounding.. thats enough to manipulate pipesmoke . they used very crappy superconductors... the ones that have to be cooled down with nitrogen to -200 degrees celsius, but the superconductor reseach improves , and there are already prototypes of room temperature super conductors .. ok.. they just keep their ability on a lenght of some centimeters, but its a start, and i think it would be cool for the cpu technology.. wheee..nomore cpu coolers ..
if those doods are able to improve this coil in the next 20-50 years, to improve its output to atleast 20.. maybe 30 % , a effective way to reduce wheight would be found .. just strap a coil into every limb. even if it gets defective you still would be able to move, you just would be a bit heavier.
who knows what comes in 100 years
but im a little bit scared that mr. shirow already knowed this stuff more than 15 years ago... he even mentioned a thing called "hermes field coil" once, a device able to cancel gravity to be used in exo suits to make them lighter (?_?)
"you can not copy the nature, but you can try to imitate her" this is the motto of bionic , the way to imitate the nature ...
Not always true. They mention somewhere in Battletech (the novels that spawned the mechwarrior games which I played addictively for 5 years before NS) I states that theres a matrix-ish plug that is inserted into the skull to allow for a sense of balance.
Even though giant walking mechs would be sweet its more logical to use wheels.
The clan archives in Mechwarrior 2 said that Clan mechwarriors wear bulky helmets, and Inner Sphere mech pilots wear nets. Both of which seemed to get what they need from the pilot's brain without poking holes in it.
(Not that they're necessarily faithful to the novels, of course).
but note the iBot and the Segway (don't laugh) already are quite impressive examples of mechanized devices synergizing with human motion (sorry I have been on the alcohol lately and consequently I can no longer form coherent phrases)
Just to clarify my position
<!--QuoteBegin-"_.:Firestorm:._"+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ("_.:Firestorm:._")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Powered Armor is likely, but not Mechwarriors.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry
Mechs are unlikely to see use simply because air power is the deciding factor in modern warfare. Building any vehicle is going to be less and less likely as all you're doing is making a bigger target for a hellfire or a maverick.
Currently we're seeing an increasing emphasis on advanced infantry systems and robotic vehicles. What we'll most likely end up with is robotic tanks and powered infantry who move in when the dust settles. The reason for that is political and has nothing to do with technology.
Current military development and technology is being directed towards relatively low intensity police actions. There's no point developing weaponry for a conventional war that no one is going to fight.
Despite all the naysayers, there's a chance we'll see manned walker vehicles in use one day, simply because they're more effective in urban environments. Tanks are useless in built up areas and most of the world now lives in cities. Finally walkers, due to their anthropomorphic nature, are psychologically more intimidating, which is a valuable tool in counter-revolutionary warfare.
If only aliens invaded us now.
seriously.... get a life <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
seriously.... get a life <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OOooh. Dis.
Mmmm... I can already imagine walkers stomping down Washington gunning down civvies. Oh to be a dictator in America!
(no, this is not aimed at any specific president)
Also, I'm quite surprised no one has <a href='http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/06/0311236&from=rss' target='_blank'>posted</a> (cough DOOM cough) <a href='http://www.sakakibara-kikai.co.jp/products/other/LW.htm' target='_blank'>this</a> yet. Okay, so its more of a grandma shuffle than omgstompeverything but its still fun.
Who wants to be the first to trip up a walking mech by placing glof balls underneath its feet? I DO!
Also, I'm quite surprised no one has <a href='http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/06/0311236&from=rss' target='_blank'>posted</a> (cough DOOM cough) <a href='http://www.sakakibara-kikai.co.jp/products/other/LW.htm' target='_blank'>this</a> yet. Okay, so its more of a grandma shuffle than omgstompeverything but its still fun.
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<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=81468&st=0#' target='_blank'>first page of this forum post, nub XD</a>
and its not exactly walking..it got rolls under its feet...
I had a good hour of time to do some math this morning, but then I foolishly looked on here and my time got pwnt by this thread. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->