Walker machines will never exist in military combat <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited September 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Sep 22 2004, 10:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Sep 22 2004, 10:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Walker machines will never exist in military combat <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The military's been experimenting with human-assist devices, at least one of which looks like a backward-kneed mech skeleton. It's pretty cool looking. [edit]Found a pic: <a href='http://www.springwalker.com/spring_sky.html' target='_blank'>http://www.springwalker.com/spring_sky.html</a>
I agree that mechs will never see combat, but it's quite possible that smaller, civilian mechs could appear eventually. People love novelty.
I agree that mechs will never see combat, but it's quite possible that smaller, civilian mechs could appear eventually. People love novelty. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yea like perhaps the forklift type thing that the marines use in ALIENS to load cargo. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I've heard they are making new armor for tanks/hummers and what not. Some weird type of armor your not used to. Well infact its like an outshell that uses 'energy' or something that when a shell hits it, it just shatters the shell causing no damage to the tank.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--QuoteBegin-DuoGodOfDeath+Sep 22 2004, 08:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuoGodOfDeath @ Sep 22 2004, 08:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've heard they are making new armor for tanks/hummers and what not. Some weird type of armor your not used to. Well infact its like an outshell that uses 'energy' or something that when a shell hits it, it just shatters the shell causing no damage to the tank. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> metal doesn't shatter very well.
the most effective armor out there right now that is feasibly usable on humvees and light-armored vehicles is either DU, or <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chobham_armour' target='_blank'>Chobham armor</a>.
<!--QuoteBegin-DuoGodOfDeath+Sep 23 2004, 12:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuoGodOfDeath @ Sep 23 2004, 12:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've heard they are making new armor for tanks/hummers and what not. Some weird type of armor your not used to. Well infact its like an outshell that uses 'energy' or something that when a shell hits it, it just shatters the shell causing no damage to the tank. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The way I understand it, the new armor you are referring to is really a number of layers of capacitors. When a projectile impacts the armor, it connects the inner and outer layer of the capacitor, sending the stored electrical energy of the capacitor into the projectile. I'm pretty sure the article I read on this said that a truck outfitted with multiple layers of this armor withstood eight rocket-propelled grenades, but I'm not certain. Of course, I'm also far too lazy to go back and look up the article. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Coil, I hardly consider an oversized pogostick the same as a mech <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
"Legged vehicles can tackle more terrain than any other heavy unit."
What? Stop getting your 'information' from playing Mechwarrior games and your lame animes. Legs would be terrible on terrain. They'd do good on snow and sand, maybe, assuming you sealed the joints tightly enough so sand didn't get in them. Ice? They'd slip. A lot. Rocks? Hopefully your legs can lift high enough to clear them, and hopefully it doesn't step wrong and the whole thing falls down the mountain.
A legged unit would be incredibly and REDICULOUSLY vulnerable to enemy fire. Destroy the legs and it won't be going anywhere. Considering that armor on the legs would be light at best, it'd be only a trivial matter to disable them. Lots of vulnerable joints that can jam (and once they do, it's boned).
I also doubt it'd be able to carry anything larger then light weapons that a wheeled/treaded vehicle couldn't, since you'd have to have a controls system, engine, and weapons system in the 'body' part, you're looking at a lot of weight on the legs/pelvis. This would be the absolute weakest part of the design. Crack the hip, everything goes out of alignment, legs don't work right, it falls down, game over.
As for the armor, it was simply a massive battery hooked up to a charged armor plating underneath regular armor. Rocket Propelled Grenades are just that - greandes. They have a fragmentation system. When they hit, they blast superhot shreds of metal into the object. This system vaporizes the shrapnel when they hit it. However, you can still hit this overpriced toy with a regular anti-tank weapon and pop huge holes in it.
<a href='http://www.darpa.mil/dso/thrust/matdev/ehpa.htm' target='_blank'>DARPA</a> have had one in development for some time and I read on another page somewhere that they're actually ahead of the proposed schedule. (If I remember correctly they needed a fully functional set of exo-legs by this year to gain extra funding and they finished them a while ago and are already working on arms etc)
<!--QuoteBegin-coil+Sep 22 2004, 11:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Sep 22 2004, 11:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I agree that mechs will never see combat, but it's quite possible that smaller, civilian mechs could appear eventually. People love novelty. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The pizza delivery service would have a field day. Motorbikes zipping in and out of traffic just isn't dangerous enough; I'm sure they'd jump on the chance to use mechs.
well i dunno bout mechs in future warfare...but then again, guns get bigger and of course its need for ammo storage, recoil gets stronger, and so a heavier, stable platform is needed....
seems like yesterday we debated about the reliability of OICW, but now they pretty much have the KE component done..and then there's the ship mounted experimental railgun and a few post above, that powered exoskeleton...
so who knows what the future holds? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*ps:that mech needs a couple of PPC's, gauss rifles and a missile rack and it'll be good to go :B
I don't really think mechs will become standard, either, but believing that technology, any kind of technology, would merely continue to evolve its current shapes means forgetting that the horse was still considered the end-all in human transportation 100 years ago.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Sep 22 2004, 09:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Sep 22 2004, 09:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Walker machines will never exist in military combat <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> o k
now you got my attention...
lets start in the 60s General electric , one of the army most loved companys started to develop a walking machine called "goliath" known as hardiman , in an attempt to enable a person to lift very heavy cargo (cargo..yeah.. official word for heavy weaponry is cargo, general electrics wanted to equip the goliath with some armor and their own inhouse production, the m134, ). but at this time, the servo actuator systems where not that advanced, they where heavy, needed lots of power, and they where dangerous to operate in such a system. the whole hardiman system without operator got a weight of 1500 pounds , it dragged several hydraulic and high voltage cables behind it. several peoples got hurt on tests because of the rough acting servo mechanisms, balance problems (the system was not very flexible in his movements) so general electric cancelled the program (officialy)
on the MIT started a project to enable paralyzed peoples to walk again. they used sensors to intercept electrical signals from their spinal column before they reach the damaged area wich paralyze them. they tried first with system of computers to analyze the pattern of the stimulus impulses meant for the muslces in the legs to alow them to contract while walking, with healthy test persons.
the result of these tests got used in the first "working" walk machine for paralyzed peoples based on pneumatics with pre defined walking patterns like forward backward, left right and so on.. the problem:
it reacted slow. it was heavy you need a compressor to operate it and you where not pretty flexible ( stairstepping was impossible, and for long time use you would need a aditional walk aid) the test person was never able to leave the room with the walk machine strapped on.
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/uploads/post-19-1042050125.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> walk machine
a few years later
a system called HAL-3 was introduced. a system that can process electrical nerv impulses in real time, and send them to the actuators in the legs. <img src='http://taipeitimes.com/images/2003/08/22/20030821182055.jpeg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
the diagram shows the composition of the system <img src='http://sanlab.kz.tsukuba.ac.jp/~lee/HTML/Image/HAL-3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
the prototype of the hal <img src='http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/ciencia/images/20030821-hal.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
the army thought... whoa.. that damn cool shiz, lets adopt this technology to enable our soldiers to carry large amounts of ammo , supplys , weapons and other crap over long distances in locations wich look similar to afganistan... they put a large ammount of money into darpas exoskeletons for human performance augmentation (EHPA)... the concept of the darpa walker looked like this..
<img src='http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1110000/images/_1112411_exos-darpa300.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> whoa.. that looks like hal3
only that its now called BLEEX (Berkeley Lower Extremities Exoskeleton) , and looks like this: <img src='http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/03/images/bleex.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> <img src='http://www.me.berkeley.edu/hel/CV/Soummya/S2-BLEEX-Web.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> In lab experiments,testers have walked around in the 100-pound exoskeleton plus a 70-pound backpack and felt as if they were carrying just five pounds. the system is similar build like the HAL3 , but as power source acts a lawnmower engine coupled to a generator, loud but effective, their next goal is to make the system quieter.
the final version will look like that <img src='http://www.me.berkeley.edu/hel/CV/Ryan/R1-BLEEX-Web.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> and because wheight doesnt really count with that system, the leg covers are enforced with kevlar to give additional protection to the operator. possible would be a full body protection, the system can take the wheight.
the same system can also be used for the arms , this would enable soldiers to operate very heavy weapons. <a href='http://www.g4techtv.com/html/videostream.asp?file=ttv/technews/2002/tl020207d_165_0.asf' target='_blank'>this old lil movie shows the first prototype of the bleex exoskeleton</a> its also talking about the start of a full body exoskeleton development by 2005
<a href='http://bleex.me.berkeley.edu/bleex.htm' target='_blank'>on the official bleex homepage you can view some videos of walking around with the bleex, the test person got a leg amyotrophia, and is usualy not able to walk without help </a>
the company plustech (John Deere) started 1991 to develop a walking tractor for very complicated terrain. <img src='http://www.plustech.fi/images/ISOT/walk91big.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
1995 they started to build a "wood-harvester" called "timberjack"for forrests with rough terrain <img src='http://www.plustech.fi/images/ISOT/walk95big.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
with a little bit fantasy you could adapt this to the army as packrat for very rough terrain , with a little armor maybe a light mobile weapon plattform.
masamune shirow (a great visionary manga artist) drawed already in the 80s something similar
Mechs have some advantages over tanks, without a doubt. The possibility of using Mechs for amphibious landings would allow powerful anti-personell, anti-armor, and anti-aricraft support. Also, "dropping" mechs into combat seems far more feasible than dropping tanks.
oh.. btw..that reminds me on another darpa invested project, the solo trek
<img src='http://www.gizmo.com.au/pics/1283_04.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> no, this is not lumberjack action man, its a early concept drawing of the solo trek
the real thing : * 3 hours hover time * 70 knots speed * 150 nautical miles range * vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) * "safe, easy to fly, easy to maintain"
"eBay Bid on SoloTrek XFV Surpasses $1 Million Within 48 Hours
Priceless, One-of-a-Kind Prototype Aircraft Creates Frenzy As Bids Continue to Climb
Trek Aerospace, Inc., an innovative Silicon Valley aerospace defense contractor, announced today that the eBay bid on the POC (proof-of-concept) prototype of its SoloTrek XFV® (Exoskeleton Flying Vehicle) has surpassed $1 million. "
Whoa. Don't you EVER dare speak up about mechs again without taking into account the fierce barrage of background research that sheena will pummel you with if you make uninformed conclusions. I bow to your mech-knowledge.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->airlanding exoslave armors with bigger versions of solotrak strapped on<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> One minor wrinkle with that mental image is the "dragons can't fly" problem.
Mass increases as the cube of height/length. Surface area increases as the square of height/length.
The solotrak looks like it has two 3-foot-diameter rotors, which adds up to 2x2.25x3.14 = ~14 square feet of rotor (I'm botching the actual physics of this, but it's the theory that's important). I'm going to assume that the weight of the pilot is about 200lbs (91kg), so one square foot of rotor has enough power to lift ~14 lbs (I'm ignoring the weight of the unit itself).
Let's say instead of a 6ft human, you're lifting a 10-ft exosuit. That's a 166% increase in size, so you'd figure the rotors would scale up to 3x1.66 = ~5ft diameter. Two 5ft rotors would mean ~40 square feet of rotor, capable of lifting 560lbs.
But a 6ft man weighs 200lbs; assuming mass increases with the cube of height, that means <i>m = xh</i>^3. If h=6 and m=200, then x works out to 1.08.
Now plug in x=1.08 and h=10... at 10 feet tall, a proportional humanoid weighs 1,080 pounds! Our 5-foot rotors are totally inadequate; to provide 1,080 pounds of lift we'll need 77sq ft of rotor. That works out to two 7-foot rotors, a 233% increase. For a 15-foot exosuit, weight balloons to 3,645 lbs, requiring two 12-foot rotors - a 250% increase in pilot height works out to a 400% increase in rotor size. _____
On top of the above math, I've ignored two things: 1) the solotrak itself would increase in size, adding its own considerable mass to the equation. While I didn't take its mass into account in figuring the rotors' lifting ability, the principle still applies. 2) A mech is made out of metal, which weighs considerably more than flesh and bone.
So, in conclusion: dragons can't fly.
Oh, and mechs probably can't use solotraks. But that's mostly because their hands are too big for the joysticks. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+Sep 23 2004, 12:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Sep 23 2004, 12:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wouldn't mechs be useful for fighting in jungles, cities, and mountainous regions where tracked vehicles are vulnerable/can't go? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Possibly. The Army would rather develop better firepower for soldiers than spend huge amounts of cash on limited use hardware.
Besides, combat is shifting from the jungles and mountains to urbanized areas. Anywhere outside of an urban area can be decimated from the air. Urban areas require fast and maneuverable armored vehicles. Something that any legged vehicle cannot provide.
Also take into consideration the great number of points of failure on a legged vehicle. There are a lot of servo's and moving parts on those things. Each critical point you add to a vehicle squares the probability of failure.
Now take into consideration that any 1 leg, has a hip, knee, and ankle joint. Thats a lot of things that can go wrong. If I am in combat I don't want my walking tank to turn into a sitting tincan bulletmagnet just because 1 servo out of 10 decided to quit.
<span style='color:white'>OK, EEK, this is the last time I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. If you can only respond to a post criticising your position by flaming the poster, you have no place on these boards. By the next offense, you'll be banned.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin-wizard@psu+Sep 23 2004, 06:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Sep 23 2004, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Urban areas require fast and maneuverable armored vehicles. Something that any legged vehicle cannot provide. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Daleks.
Part of the reasoning behind the DARPA exo skeletons is the fact that combat is becoming more confined and in urban areas. The main problems with this are as you already said, Airstrikes are unappreicated by the general populous but similarily a tank or TOW firing Humvee or whatever other AV you're using also does considerable damage to the buildings and othe structures which you tend to want to keep.
An armoured exo-suited soldier can go into a building and <i>climb the stairs</i> to actually face his opponent and shoot him not the building and surrounding street.
I agree that mechs will never see combat, but it's quite possible that smaller, civilian mechs could appear eventually. People love novelty. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yea like perhaps the forklift type thing that the marines use in ALIENS to load cargo. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, they'll probably make a Powerloader for cargo and whatnot. Wasn't there a site where you could buy one for big bucks?
I wish that kid was smashed under that thing's foot.
Comments
sorry.. i saw the shrubbery and... well.. i'll just shut up...
They also provide amazing anti-infantry support. Against tanks maybe they wont bode so well, but they probably will see combat.
The military's been experimenting with human-assist devices, at least one of which looks like a backward-kneed mech skeleton. It's pretty cool looking. [edit]Found a pic: <a href='http://www.springwalker.com/spring_sky.html' target='_blank'>http://www.springwalker.com/spring_sky.html</a>
I agree that mechs will never see combat, but it's quite possible that smaller, civilian mechs could appear eventually. People love novelty.
I agree that mechs will never see combat, but it's quite possible that smaller, civilian mechs could appear eventually. People love novelty. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yea like perhaps the forklift type thing that the marines use in ALIENS to load cargo. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
metal doesn't shatter very well.
the most effective armor out there right now that is feasibly usable on humvees and light-armored vehicles is either DU, or <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chobham_armour' target='_blank'>Chobham armor</a>.
The way I understand it, the new armor you are referring to is really a number of layers of capacitors. When a projectile impacts the armor, it connects the inner and outer layer of the capacitor, sending the stored electrical energy of the capacitor into the projectile. I'm pretty sure the article I read on this said that a truck outfitted with multiple layers of this armor withstood eight rocket-propelled grenades, but I'm not certain. Of course, I'm also far too lazy to go back and look up the article. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
"Legged vehicles can tackle more terrain than any other heavy unit."
What? Stop getting your 'information' from playing Mechwarrior games and your lame animes. Legs would be terrible on terrain. They'd do good on snow and sand, maybe, assuming you sealed the joints tightly enough so sand didn't get in them. Ice? They'd slip. A lot. Rocks? Hopefully your legs can lift high enough to clear them, and hopefully it doesn't step wrong and the whole thing falls down the mountain.
A legged unit would be incredibly and REDICULOUSLY vulnerable to enemy fire. Destroy the legs and it won't be going anywhere. Considering that armor on the legs would be light at best, it'd be only a trivial matter to disable them. Lots of vulnerable joints that can jam (and once they do, it's boned).
I also doubt it'd be able to carry anything larger then light weapons that a wheeled/treaded vehicle couldn't, since you'd have to have a controls system, engine, and weapons system in the 'body' part, you're looking at a lot of weight on the legs/pelvis. This would be the absolute weakest part of the design. Crack the hip, everything goes out of alignment, legs don't work right, it falls down, game over.
As for the armor, it was simply a massive battery hooked up to a charged armor plating underneath regular armor. Rocket Propelled Grenades are just that - greandes. They have a fragmentation system. When they hit, they blast superhot shreds of metal into the object. This system vaporizes the shrapnel when they hit it. However, you can still hit this overpriced toy with a regular anti-tank weapon and pop huge holes in it.
<a href='http://www.darpa.mil/dso/thrust/matdev/ehpa.htm' target='_blank'>DARPA</a> have had one in development for some time and I read on another page somewhere that they're actually ahead of the proposed schedule. (If I remember correctly they needed a fully functional set of exo-legs by this year to gain extra funding and they finished them a while ago and are already working on arms etc)
The pizza delivery service would have a field day. Motorbikes zipping in and out of traffic just isn't dangerous enough; I'm sure they'd jump on the chance to use mechs.
EDIT: Hurray for generous hosts.
<img src='http://img68.exs.cx/img68/9000/civilianmech.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
seems like yesterday we debated about the reliability of OICW, but now they pretty much have the KE component done..and then there's the ship mounted experimental railgun and a few post above, that powered exoskeleton...
so who knows what the future holds? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*ps:that mech needs a couple of PPC's, gauss rifles and a missile rack and it'll be good to go :B
I don't really think mechs will become standard, either, but believing that technology, any kind of technology, would merely continue to evolve its current shapes means forgetting that the horse was still considered the end-all in human transportation 100 years ago.
o k
now you got my attention...
lets start in the 60s
General electric , one of the army most loved companys started to develop a walking machine called "goliath" known as hardiman , in an attempt to enable a person to lift very heavy cargo (cargo..yeah.. official word for heavy weaponry is cargo, general electrics wanted to equip the goliath with some armor and their own inhouse production, the m134, ). but at this time, the servo actuator systems where not that advanced, they where heavy, needed lots of power, and they where dangerous to operate in such a system. the whole hardiman system without operator got a weight of 1500 pounds , it dragged several hydraulic and high voltage cables behind it.
several peoples got hurt on tests because of the rough acting servo mechanisms, balance problems (the system was not very flexible in his movements) so general electric cancelled the program (officialy)
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/uploads/post-19-1042050803.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Hardiman
some years later
on the MIT started a project to enable paralyzed peoples to walk again. they used sensors to intercept electrical signals from their spinal column before they reach the damaged area wich paralyze them. they tried first with system of computers to analyze the pattern of the stimulus impulses meant for the muslces in the legs to alow them to contract while walking, with healthy test persons.
the result of these tests got used in the first "working" walk machine for paralyzed peoples based on pneumatics with pre defined walking patterns like forward backward, left right and so on.. the problem:
it reacted slow.
it was heavy
you need a compressor to operate it
and you where not pretty flexible ( stairstepping was impossible, and for long time use you would need a aditional walk aid)
the test person was never able to leave the room with the walk machine strapped on.
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/uploads/post-19-1042050125.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
walk machine
a few years later
a system called HAL-3 was introduced.
a system that can process electrical nerv impulses in real time, and send them to the actuators in the legs.
<img src='http://taipeitimes.com/images/2003/08/22/20030821182055.jpeg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
the diagram shows the composition of the system
<img src='http://sanlab.kz.tsukuba.ac.jp/~lee/HTML/Image/HAL-3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
the prototype of the hal
<img src='http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/ciencia/images/20030821-hal.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
the army thought... whoa.. that damn cool shiz, lets adopt this technology to enable our soldiers to carry large amounts of ammo , supplys , weapons and other crap over long distances in locations wich look similar to afganistan...
they put a large ammount of money into darpas exoskeletons for human performance augmentation (EHPA)... the concept of the darpa walker looked like this..
<img src='http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1110000/images/_1112411_exos-darpa300.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
whoa.. that looks like hal3
only that its now called BLEEX (Berkeley Lower Extremities Exoskeleton) ,
and looks like this:
<img src='http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/03/images/bleex.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.me.berkeley.edu/hel/CV/Soummya/S2-BLEEX-Web.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
In lab experiments,testers have walked around in the 100-pound exoskeleton plus a 70-pound backpack and felt as if they were carrying just five pounds. the system is similar build like the HAL3 , but as power source acts a lawnmower engine coupled to a generator, loud but effective, their next goal is to make the system quieter.
<img src='http://www.me.berkeley.edu/hel/CV/Ryan/R1-BLEEX-Web.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
and because wheight doesnt really count with that system, the leg covers are enforced with kevlar to give additional protection to the operator. possible would be a full body protection, the system can take the wheight.
the same system can also be used for the arms , this would enable soldiers to operate very heavy weapons.
<a href='http://www.g4techtv.com/html/videostream.asp?file=ttv/technews/2002/tl020207d_165_0.asf' target='_blank'>this old lil movie shows the first prototype of the bleex exoskeleton</a>
its also talking about the start of a full body exoskeleton development by 2005
<a href='http://bleex.me.berkeley.edu/bleex.htm' target='_blank'>on the official bleex homepage you can view some videos of walking around with the bleex, the test person got a leg amyotrophia, and is usualy not able to walk without help </a>
the company plustech (John Deere) started 1991 to develop a walking tractor for very complicated terrain.
<img src='http://www.plustech.fi/images/ISOT/walk91big.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
1995 they started to build a "wood-harvester" called "timberjack"for forrests with rough terrain
<img src='http://www.plustech.fi/images/ISOT/walk95big.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
2000 phase 2
<img src='http://www.plustech.fi/images/ISOT/walk99big.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.plustech.fi/images/ISOT/6x6_02.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.plustech.fi/images/ISOT/6x6_03.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.plustech.fi/images/ISOT/Pluscabin.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.plustech.fi/images/ISOT/2xWalker.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<a href='http://www.plustech.fi/images/PDF/Walking-Brochure.pdf' target='_blank'>Timberjack PDF</a>
with a little bit fantasy you could adapt this to the army as packrat for very rough terrain , with a little armor maybe a light mobile weapon plattform.
masamune shirow (a great visionary manga artist) drawed already in the 80s something similar
<img src='http://www.gizmo.com.au/pics/1283_04.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
no, this is not lumberjack action man, its a early concept drawing of the solo trek
the real thing :
* 3 hours hover time
* 70 knots speed
* 150 nautical miles range
* vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL)
* "safe, easy to fly, easy to maintain"
<img src='http://eurekaweb.free.fr/image/SoloTrek4z_larg.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.gizmo.com.au/pics/1283_07.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.gizmo.com.au/pics/1283_11.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.gizmo.com.au/pics/1283_08.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.gizmo.com.au/pics/1283_06.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.gizmo.com.au/pics/1283_03.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.gizmo.com.au/pics/1283_02.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/2001/Feb/10/image2/business_b.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.vrproject.de/vrprojekt_images/images_solotrek/hiller2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
"eBay Bid on SoloTrek XFV Surpasses $1 Million Within 48 Hours
Priceless, One-of-a-Kind Prototype Aircraft Creates Frenzy As Bids Continue to Climb
Trek Aerospace, Inc., an innovative Silicon Valley aerospace defense contractor, announced today that the eBay bid on the POC (proof-of-concept) prototype of its SoloTrek XFV® (Exoskeleton Flying Vehicle) has surpassed $1 million. "
<img src='http://www.trekaero.com/TrekAero.data/Components/trek_areospace_springtail-fv4_600w.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.trekaero.com/TrekAero.data/Components/trek_aerospace_efv4b_6w.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.trekaero.com/TrekAero.data/Components/springtail_oct_tests_sps.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
airlanding exoslave armors with bigger versions of solotrak strapped on
One minor wrinkle with that mental image is the "dragons can't fly" problem.
Mass increases as the cube of height/length. Surface area increases as the square of height/length.
The solotrak looks like it has two 3-foot-diameter rotors, which adds up to 2x2.25x3.14 = ~14 square feet of rotor (I'm botching the actual physics of this, but it's the theory that's important). I'm going to assume that the weight of the pilot is about 200lbs (91kg), so one square foot of rotor has enough power to lift ~14 lbs (I'm ignoring the weight of the unit itself).
Let's say instead of a 6ft human, you're lifting a 10-ft exosuit. That's a 166% increase in size, so you'd figure the rotors would scale up to 3x1.66 = ~5ft diameter. Two 5ft rotors would mean ~40 square feet of rotor, capable of lifting 560lbs.
But a 6ft man weighs 200lbs; assuming mass increases with the cube of height, that means <i>m = xh</i>^3. If h=6 and m=200, then x works out to 1.08.
Now plug in x=1.08 and h=10... at 10 feet tall, a proportional humanoid weighs 1,080 pounds! Our 5-foot rotors are totally inadequate; to provide 1,080 pounds of lift we'll need 77sq ft of rotor. That works out to two 7-foot rotors, a 233% increase. For a 15-foot exosuit, weight balloons to 3,645 lbs, requiring two 12-foot rotors - a 250% increase in pilot height works out to a 400% increase in rotor size.
_____
On top of the above math, I've ignored two things:
1) the solotrak itself would increase in size, adding its own considerable mass to the equation. While I didn't take its mass into account in figuring the rotors' lifting ability, the principle still applies.
2) A mech is made out of metal, which weighs considerably more than flesh and bone.
So, in conclusion: dragons can't fly.
Oh, and mechs probably can't use solotraks. But that's mostly because their hands are too big for the joysticks. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But then again the AvP 2 Exoskeleton pwned.
Possibly. The Army would rather develop better firepower for soldiers than spend huge amounts of cash on limited use hardware.
Besides, combat is shifting from the jungles and mountains to urbanized areas. Anywhere outside of an urban area can be decimated from the air. Urban areas require fast and maneuverable armored vehicles. Something that any legged vehicle cannot provide.
Also take into consideration the great number of points of failure on a legged vehicle. There are a lot of servo's and moving parts on those things. Each critical point you add to a vehicle squares the probability of failure.
Now take into consideration that any 1 leg, has a hip, knee, and ankle joint. Thats a lot of things that can go wrong. If I am in combat I don't want my walking tank to turn into a sitting tincan bulletmagnet just because 1 servo out of 10 decided to quit.
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Daleks.
Part of the reasoning behind the DARPA exo skeletons is the fact that combat is becoming more confined and in urban areas. The main problems with this are as you already said, Airstrikes are unappreicated by the general populous but similarily a tank or TOW firing Humvee or whatever other AV you're using also does considerable damage to the buildings and othe structures which you tend to want to keep.
An armoured exo-suited soldier can go into a building and <i>climb the stairs</i> to actually face his opponent and shoot him not the building and surrounding street.
I agree that mechs will never see combat, but it's quite possible that smaller, civilian mechs could appear eventually. People love novelty. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yea like perhaps the forklift type thing that the marines use in ALIENS to load cargo. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, they'll probably make a Powerloader for cargo and whatnot. Wasn't there a site where you could buy one for big bucks?
I wish that kid was smashed under that thing's foot.