Why The Kharaa Win.
Lord_Chambers
Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6160Members
Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6160Members
<div class="IPBDescription">I think</div> Aliens win with hives and resources. Alien resources are mainly useful because they allow chambers and towers to be built, which seriously hamper LMG Marines.
Marines rely solely on resources. In general the Marines will be able to set up a base in a hive, preventing the aliens from getting three. However, in 1.01, two hives is quite sufficient to destroy the Marines.
With these things established I argue that the marines lose because of a Kharaa advantage in the early game. Marines can't go off by themselves or they'll be skulked. They must move in groups, and expand conservatively. Aliens on the other hand, can just build a bunch of resource nodes in the beginning, and leave them safely without defenses, because the hive sight, speed, and combat advantage of skulks will keep them defended, not to mention that marines won't be venturing around the map. Aliens however will, and one skulk can take out a resource node. He doesn't run out of ammo, and he doesn't get ambushed from vents. To prevent this the Marines need to invest about 100 resources per node (3 turrets x 19 + 1 node x 22 + 1 turret factory x 25), and those defenses only last until the Aliens get a second hive. To get the resources they need to battle fades, or to battle skulks while trying to take over two hive sites, the Marines need resources, and they can't get very many because of the Skulk advantage early on.
The solution? I think lowering the cost of shotguns would be a good place to start. 10 or 15 sounds good to me. Shotguns can destroy resource nodes and towers (if the gorges actually decide to defend their resource nodes) more efficiently with their ammo, while allowing decent marines to take out a groups of skulks. They still won't be the raging one-man armies that are individual skulks, but it'll hopefully cause the aliens to be more conservative in their expansion.
Another solution would be to devalue the power of two hives for the aliens, such as weakening umbra or fades (I'll be very scared when bile bomb building damage is fixed), so that the Marines have a better chance, despite their need for conservative expansion. I don't really like this though, because the main imbalance is early on, not later into the two hive game.
To summarize, I think the Marines are losing because they can't expand as quickly as the aliens early on, because they must travel in packs.
Marines rely solely on resources. In general the Marines will be able to set up a base in a hive, preventing the aliens from getting three. However, in 1.01, two hives is quite sufficient to destroy the Marines.
With these things established I argue that the marines lose because of a Kharaa advantage in the early game. Marines can't go off by themselves or they'll be skulked. They must move in groups, and expand conservatively. Aliens on the other hand, can just build a bunch of resource nodes in the beginning, and leave them safely without defenses, because the hive sight, speed, and combat advantage of skulks will keep them defended, not to mention that marines won't be venturing around the map. Aliens however will, and one skulk can take out a resource node. He doesn't run out of ammo, and he doesn't get ambushed from vents. To prevent this the Marines need to invest about 100 resources per node (3 turrets x 19 + 1 node x 22 + 1 turret factory x 25), and those defenses only last until the Aliens get a second hive. To get the resources they need to battle fades, or to battle skulks while trying to take over two hive sites, the Marines need resources, and they can't get very many because of the Skulk advantage early on.
The solution? I think lowering the cost of shotguns would be a good place to start. 10 or 15 sounds good to me. Shotguns can destroy resource nodes and towers (if the gorges actually decide to defend their resource nodes) more efficiently with their ammo, while allowing decent marines to take out a groups of skulks. They still won't be the raging one-man armies that are individual skulks, but it'll hopefully cause the aliens to be more conservative in their expansion.
Another solution would be to devalue the power of two hives for the aliens, such as weakening umbra or fades (I'll be very scared when bile bomb building damage is fixed), so that the Marines have a better chance, despite their need for conservative expansion. I don't really like this though, because the main imbalance is early on, not later into the two hive game.
To summarize, I think the Marines are losing because they can't expand as quickly as the aliens early on, because they must travel in packs.
Comments
Umbra is horrible. I hate it. (When I play Marine).
I really do think that Umbra should probably be had with three hives instead of two. There's not a heck of a lot Marines can do against Umbra, aside from suicide knife-rushing. (Or perhaps nade-spamming, but the aliens can grab two hives before most marine teams can get the nade launcher).
As much as I love Umbra when I play Lerk, I think it'd serve better in the fourth slot. (Though perhaps Spore is too powerful for two hives, in which case we still have a problem. *shrug*)
And I agree with lowering shotgun costs. Many commanders are loathe to give out shotguns because of their expense, even though a marine with a shotgun has a better chance of completing objectives (well ... <b>myself</b> with a shotgun in any case ...)
But I rather think the balancing is fine for it now... or perhaps tweaking with the fade's health again? not sure.
what seems to be the marine's downfall is the lack of a really excellent commander.
with experienced alien players, you need a REAlly, really excellent commander.
with good alien players you need a preferabbly smart commander
with n00b alien players you win almost with a stupid commander
But i think it's all fine too... seeing as how Marines do win once in a while,... just that they have to struggle for security and nodes in the early stages.... once the fades kick in, it's horrible, especially if there's a bunch of them.
now you dont' really need a lerk/fade combo. You just need about 3-4 fades and it's pretty much all over for marines even if they have HMGs
LOL. You've obviously never played alien. It takes several minutes for the first additional alien resource node to be available if there are a low number of gorges.
If there are a high number, it takes much longer.
Marines on the other hand can concentrate all their resources into those nodes without having to spread them between the team.
Spore Cloud as a two-hive weapon is incredibly deadly. One lerk with Adrenaline can fill a decent sized marine base with poisonous spores, killing up to half a dozen unfortunate marines in seconds.
Two lerks with Adrenaline and Spore Clouds... I don't even want to think about it.
Whereas Umbra really is only a big threat - against humans - when it's used in conjuntion with other alien players (the infamous lerk-umbra + gorge-spray + fade-killing-machine comes to mind). True - against lone, undefended turret outposts, an umbra'ed lerk is a deadly menace. As it should be! Turrets aren't supposed to be the be-all and end-all of defense.
In truth, what I see more often since the patch is: a Lerk will set up a sniping position, take out whichever turret guards the 'back side' of the turret factory, then just fly in and bite the bloody thing from safety.
First let me tell you that he does play alien and he's pretty good at it, that's to clear the misunderstanding...
then, may i remind you that, in order for the marines to suceed they have to move in a group or they'll just be skulked one by one out on the field.
this gives incredible times for the gorgs to build stuff.
What I suggest as a counterattack is to have a huge group building... and a group of 2-3 people scouting around new areas....
and for Aliens, having a gorg died in the early game is pretyt much a big loss.
this could be helpful to marines.
I didn't say it happened instantly. Yes, you have to wait a bit. However, after you do make one, you don't really have to worry about marines coming to kill it, because they'll either be building, or getting ambushed by skulks when they do decide to attack. Want to make that resource node invincible until they get HA or Grenade launchers? Put three offensive towers near it with three defensive towers. Even if they get a large enough group to destroy it with weak weapons, you can skulk them while reloading, or just attack their nodes while they attack yours.
And so you know, the more gorges you have the lower percentage of the Kharaa resoucres you get, thus the slower you are able to build. Each alien gets a percentage of the teams' resource nodes' yeild. Gorges get a higher percentage than other aliens. Even though you are getting a larger cut of the pie, too many gorges divide the resource pie too much. If you want to be effective only have one gorge for about every three other aliens.
Perhaps I misunderstood a bit.
However, when I comm, my first priority is not resource nodes. It's to take at least 1 hive. That will additionally give you at least 1 resource node.
Marines can do well enough with LMGs for quite a while as long as they stick together and holding that hive is far more important (in my experience) then rushing to HMG. (In view of the total game rather then simply examining the outcome of individual encounters.)
The point is, although the aliens have been winning a lot of games, don't make it a balance issue. Things are fine. I can, for one, say that I have a decent amount of skill with an LMG so a skulk doesn't scare me too much. The sad thing is when your the commander and you've sent in 2-3 waves of the same four marines and they all get slaughtered by 1-2 skulks (it happened today).
Don't make these kinds of things a balance issue. We could go on all day but in the end, NS is pretty much as balanced as it gets.
EDIT: Spectra, not spectre.
When it comes down to umbra and spore I don't know really what to say. Umbra is far from always used, I have seen many many successful attements to beat marines with 2 hives and not using umbra. When umbra is used I always seem to see a spore cloud so basicly to me they come at the same time, unless I am alien.
In fact Reign, I don't think we should change any balance issues in the next patch. I think we should get the bile bomb bugs and crazy commander conditions worked out first. I just hadn't seen anyone point to the differences in expansion strategy, specifically resource nodes, as the reasons for aliens winning. People say it's turrets or towers, fades or fools. Not in the games I play. It's the quick skulk ambushes/mobile skulk defense that force the Marines to build good defenses around each node, and stick together. And it is this slow development that kills them
But with all this complaining its been lately im afraid that the ns team is going to change the blanace in the game and ruin all again... (like it was before the patch)
but hey i could be wrong <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
i like gorge's though <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> , arent they cute =)
the only thing i could see improvement in more is the netcode. i may ping a server at 30 but when i join im at 80-100. whatever thats still not bad but a 30 ping would be nice <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Aliens get a fade, or worse yet an onos, and you know you're dead... it's happened several times "oh shazbot! They have onos, we're all dead... we can stop trying now..."
Where as the aliens don't have to worry about that too much, the only time the aliens really sweat is with seige turrets, and even then if they auto target a heavy fortification that can't be taken out with a seige turret, and i've seen this, then you wasted resources on a turret... I think the option to change targets on a seige turret would be nice, though it could be a weighted average, like it would only target a hive 1/25 times or something like that, to balance it.
Let's face it, otherwise when I play as aliens I don't exactly see HA or HMGs to be a big deal because i'm not ALWAYS going to be rushed by ha and hmg equiped marines, and this goes back to the commander somewhat and his responcibility to equip rushing soldiers.
All and all, these are minor quivals compared to more crippling problems like the lag. Yes, it is much better, but it's a little annying to ping a server at 80ms and when you enter it's up around 200ms.
Granted, it's a great feat to get CS like server code on a mod that has about 10x, if not more, models and entities on screen AND bigger, more detailed, maps.
Good work abound, but listen to us! We are the ones who make or break a mod, not playtesters!
heh, yeah i can tell from experience it's not like CS.
When an onos rushes our base that has turrets in it i drop down to 5FPS, same while in the commander's chair.
I need a new comp, my 450 P3 isn't cutting it <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
10 or 15 would be better for shotgun, right now it's just not very cost effective.