matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--flippo+Nov 13 2002, 07:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (flippo @ Nov 13 2002, 07:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, I'm not a newbie here ok, we stuck together, our commander was great, we had cash. Tell me how this situation was winnable, please. Umbra is too **obscenity** powerful. 7/8 bullets blocked? ALL WE HAVE IS BULLETS! Some GL's might have helped. No they wouldn't have, 'cause they have 5 defense chambers which <b>all</b> heal each other and the aliens.
P.S. Any suggestions for that situation?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea. Retreat, get two people with GL, two with HMG. Start pelting. If they manage to build up DC/OC, get a siege gun going. Not easy, but doable.
Simply put, you were owned by superb teamwork - gorge+lerk+fade is an awesome team - and the fact that Feedwater hive is almost impossible to defend (buildspots are rare inside the hive proper, and the waterway is only passable by aliens).
Not undefeatable though. The gorge is slow, pelt him with grenades and he can't run away fast enough to live. You can force the lerk to flee the grenades, which means the Fade will have to blink away once the umbra is gone.
Yea, you NEED a combined arms marine team to defeat a combined arms Kharaa team.
<!--QuoteBegin--playerman+Nov 14 2002, 03:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (playerman @ Nov 14 2002, 03:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->hey, some people are born as experts in everything (if you'd believe them). give m some slack...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hardly. The only expertise you're borne with is how to suckle at your mother's teats. Asking for n00bs to be shot is a rather flippant attitude, don't you think? I believe HE should cut the n00bs some slack. The world wasn't built for his sole pleasure, and NS certainly wasn't either.
Heres why I think the Kharaa win alot, the marines have ONE commander, the aliens have as many commanders as gorges, they pretty much dont follow ONE person's plan, they talk to each other(like the marines were supposed to!) and formulate strats i.e." you take the vent on the left, jimbo takes the one on the right, and when you see me shoot my acid rockets in the front door to distract them you guys fly in and kill them from behind" see now the marines tend to sit around waiting for the blasted commander to give them a decision , or waiting for a stupid teammate to stop doing the "i gotta pee!" dance for a HMG or somesuch. seeing as the marine commander needs to scroll all around to drop things for the marines, and two gorges can both be out taking over resc spots and setting up defense and hives, theres a bigass edge there.
Want to know what I think would balance it more? perhaps Marine CLASSES, such as, the commander makes you a medic, so one of your slots now has a healing pack in it(you spawn in with this and possibly cant use heavy armor), so you can heal like a gorge , albeit needing to be closer and the person needs to stand still, also the addition of a strong melee-esque weapon for the marines besides the welder would be great, like a flamethrower... Why have I not seen a flamethrower in NS?
a new upgrade perhaps? NS does involve Nanotech, so why not an upgrade to <i>Slowly</i> refill your ammunition(faster for guns that eat ammo like a mofo.)?
anyway I'm about to give up on marines, with all the stupid team-mates and commanders I've dealt with. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, as for your will, do you mean to say that you dont want the cheaper shotguns you mentioned? cant say that your post wasnt heavily talking the marines cause<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps its just word spliting to read what I've actually written, DarkSpawn, but understand that it will increase your chances of making false charges. In this thread I've said: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not proposing new ideas, I'm just trying to pinpoint why the aliens win more often than not, in my experience. I figured I should suggest solutions if I'm pointing out a problem, but I don't think any severe changes should be made. In fact Reign, I don't think we should change any balance issues in the next patch. I just hadn't seen anyone point to the differences in expansion strategy, specifically resource nodes, as the reasons for aliens winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know what I've seen. I've made an analysis of the game, and I've come up with a slightly different conclusion than what I've seen other people talk about. As I think I made clear, I wasn't arguing for one team or another. That's irrelevant. I was pointing that I think the Marines loose because they have to expand slowly, as opposed to most balance arguments saying things like "onos r 2 tuff" "hmg is to powerful!!" "siege is redicerus" "ban siege" "invisible aliens omg how can u kill them?" Most people are focusing on very narrow aspects of the game, as I said before "People say it's turrets or towers, fades or fools." So please don't try to suppose I'm just arguing for my team, the one team I play. Don't try to reduce this to squabiling over weapons. Make your judgements on what I say, not what you think my motives are.
For your question, "can you enlighten us all with what happens if marines come across an undefended hive site?" I answer yes. The skulks jump all over them, or, if they are HA/HMGed marines, the fades battle them. Perhaps though the marines rushed for HA and HMGs, so the aliens don't have fades yet? Then the aliens are in a bit of a pickle, and this rush is just about the only strategy that works for Marines. What's happened in my experience though, is that to rush for this high technology the Marines invest less resources in their defense or expansion, meaning that if the skulks can fight off a group of HA HMG marines, they've likely won the round, since the Marines won't have the resources to re-equip or defend well against Kharaa attacks.
"location can be taken if nobody helps the turrets defend it." True. It's tough for the commander to direct troops in defense while trying to expand though. Generally he has to choose one or the other. Be safe and conservative, and lose in the long run, or be risky and hope the aliens don't attack a certain post very hard. A great commander could operate smart marines on both expansive and defensive fronts, but even then the forces are being split, increasing the chances that marines will end up skulk food.
Please understand what I've said doesn't translate to "Its impossible to win as Marines." I've noticed that you have to tell people what you are not saying more than what you are saying on the internet. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> NS does involve Nanotech, so why not an upgrade to Slowly refill your ammunition(faster for guns that eat ammo like a mofo.)? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as you red in the manual:never ending nano is a big nono
yes noobs are willing to learn, thats what makes them great, look at me, i was the lauziest commander cos i didnt knew anything ( well upgrading and prerequzites) i got coached one time and now i am a above average good and fast commander <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
yup the skraai are way faster due to better comminucations, why dont the marines have a feature on their helemts to see their allies (like the aliens) that way they could back eachother more efficient (offcource u need to call for one)
i usually call for my teammates to follow me but tey cant see who is saying that so that makes some nice misunderstandings, make a icon on top of his head or something i am talking about the menutalk, not the mictalk )
also to increase preformance for the marines, a player indicator (for the comm) would be nice (yust the names alone would be wonderful, no more searching where is he, asking for something)
if the comm yust could make some squad leaders ( team alpha bravo delta and gamma) and yust give the squad leader some waypoint and the rest (marines under comand of a squad leader) backing him up would be wonderfull
now if yust evrybody would cover eachother or better yet move in groups of 3 or more and we teach newbies how to play the NS world would look way better
<!--QuoteBegin--Lord Chambers+Nov 10 2002, 11:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lord Chambers @ Nov 10 2002, 11:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The solution? I think lowering the cost of shotguns would be a good place to start. 10 or 15 sounds good to me. Shotguns can destroy resource nodes and towers (if the gorges actually decide to defend their resource nodes) more efficiently with their ammo, while allowing decent marines to take out a groups of skulks. They still won't be the raging one-man armies that are individual skulks, but it'll hopefully cause the aliens to be more conservative in their expansion.
Another solution would be to devalue the power of two hives for the aliens, such as weakening umbra or fades .
To summarize, I think the Marines are losing because they can't expand as quickly as the aliens early on, because they must travel in packs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Very well lord chamber, I will have to start quoting you then. Here is what you said, well part of it anyways. You conclude with the aliens being superior and you do ask for cheaper shotguns, among other things. You dont seem to cope with the fact that the way this game is supposed to be played is very different for the two sides. But I have said my piece regarding this earlier.
You might need an eye check. I never asked for cheaper shotguns. I did suggest lowering the cost as a way to even the playing field for the Marines. Is the difference really so difficult to distinguish?
In what ways am I not coping with the differences in play? For you to say that I presume you must disagree that the Marines lose because they can't expand as rapidly as the aliens. Is that a correct presumption? I realize I should ask first, because if I were to assume this is so then I'd have to go quote my explainations on how expanding slowly causes the Marines to lose, since we both understand that's the difference in play. I just can't assume that, because that would mean the Marines are meant to lose.
<!--QuoteBegin--R7X3+Nov 13 2002, 11:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (R7X3 @ Nov 13 2002, 11:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Heres why I think the Kharaa win alot, the marines have ONE commander, the aliens have as many commanders as gorges, they pretty much dont follow ONE person's plan, they talk to each other(like the marines were supposed to!) and formulate strats i.e." you take the vent on the left, jimbo takes the one on the right, and when you see me shoot my acid rockets in the front door to distract them you guys fly in and kill them from behind" see now the marines tend to sit around waiting for the blasted commander to give them a decision , or waiting for a stupid teammate to stop doing the "i gotta pee!" dance for a HMG or somesuch. seeing as the marine commander needs to scroll all around to drop things for the marines, and two gorges can both be out taking over resc spots and setting up defense and hives, theres a bigass edge there.
Want to know what I think would balance it more? perhaps Marine CLASSES, such as, the commander makes you a medic, so one of your slots now has a healing pack in it(you spawn in with this and possibly cant use heavy armor), so you can heal like a gorge , albeit needing to be closer and the person needs to stand still, also the addition of a strong melee-esque weapon for the marines besides the welder would be great, like a flamethrower... Why have I not seen a flamethrower in NS?
a new upgrade perhaps? NS does involve Nanotech, so why not an upgrade to <i>Slowly</i> refill your ammunition(faster for guns that eat ammo like a mofo.)?
anyway I'm about to give up on marines, with all the stupid team-mates and commanders I've dealt with. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is an INCREDIBLY good idea.
I think one reason that the aliens win more often because the newer players tend to lean towards marines, due to the imbalances that existed in 1.00 and due to the familiarity of marines to other FPS games.
As far as the early game alien advantage goes, here are my two cents: The game is difficult for marines to win when their aim is so poor that they can't shoot a skulk running head on. When I play with talented marines, they can usually shoot down multiple skulks by strafe jumping / wall-sliding without too much effort. When I play with newbie marines I see one skulk take out an entire squad. However, as marines tech up to heavy armor and HMGs, aim generally becomes less important. Aliens usually morph into fades which are almost impossible to miss, and marines have time to correct their aim because their heavy armor protects them.
The skill of the commander is, in my opinion, the most important factor in deciding whether marines win or lose. Even with a very mediocre team, it is impossible NOT to lose as commander if they properly employ siege turrets. There are certain areas where well placed siege turrets can cover multiple resource nodes in rooms that aren't even remotely connected to the room that the turret is in. -=For example, siege turrets placed in the Holoroom on Hera (I think that's the mapname) can cover 4-5 resource nodes. That means if a Gorge tries to build there, he'd lose the collector and might get blown up himself. On that same map, siege turrets placed in the Processing room can cover two hives (the one with the whirlpool under it and the hive north of the Processing room.)=-
All a commander really needs to do is to properly exploit siege towers to win a game. It forces the aliens to assault (as opposed to ambush) a heavily defended encampment (if you have siege towers, you should have sentries in the area as well) that is guarded by marines in HAs w/ HMGs. An alien team would have to vastly outskill the marines in order to win. A proper turret push would involve 6-8 siege towers (which cost less than normal towers). 6-8 siege towers will level a hive before the aliens can kill them. Also, having the commander save up for 6-8 siege towers and defenses for them is much easier than having one gorge save up for a hive, especially if other siege turrets cover resource nodes.
Interesting post fgStratus. Once again, I'm not trying to allocate all the alien wins to Marines need for slower expansion. I think everyone understands its a more complex set of circumstances that allow one team to win over another. People often bring up skill levels and teamwork. Certainly those are important for a team to win or lose, but they are variable, so I don't care too much to discuss them. Here in this thread, I've designated slow/fast expansion, and through DarkSpawn asking "can you enlighten us all with what happens if marines come across an undefended hive site", and your post fgStratus, I've been heading toward a conclusion that resources might not be as important. The marines, in theory, should be able to win with agressive building tactics, by sealing off hives and resource points. It's an interesting conflict, to me, because the only thing that makes the Marines more powerful are resources, so they should seek them out, but on the other hand they can't only go for resources or they'll lose. It seems they need to be agressive and attack, even without resources - the resources that let them stand up to skulks, towers, and fades.
Well, my head is spinning in a circle, but maybe I can make a few conclusions. I haven't really seen it happen, but fgStratus' siege turret attack sounds very viable, for decently skilled marines (which I do all my considerations with). And I've completely lost my train of thought. I guess that's all for now. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
P.S. Any suggestions for that situation?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea. Retreat, get two people with GL, two with HMG. Start pelting. If they manage to build up DC/OC, get a siege gun going. Not easy, but doable.
Simply put, you were owned by superb teamwork - gorge+lerk+fade is an awesome team - and the fact that Feedwater hive is almost impossible to defend (buildspots are rare inside the hive proper, and the waterway is only passable by aliens).
Not undefeatable though. The gorge is slow, pelt him with grenades and he can't run away fast enough to live. You can force the lerk to flee the grenades, which means the Fade will have to blink away once the umbra is gone.
Yea, you NEED a combined arms marine team to defeat a combined arms Kharaa team.
No surprise there.
give m some slack...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hardly. The only expertise you're borne with is how to suckle at your mother's teats. Asking for n00bs to be shot is a rather flippant attitude, don't you think? I believe HE should cut the n00bs some slack. The world wasn't built for his sole pleasure, and NS certainly wasn't either.
the marines have ONE commander, the aliens have as many commanders as gorges, they pretty much dont follow ONE person's plan, they talk to each other(like the marines were supposed to!) and formulate strats
i.e." you take the vent on the left, jimbo takes the one on the right, and when you see me shoot my acid rockets in the front door to distract them you guys fly in and kill them from behind"
see now the marines tend to sit around waiting for the blasted commander to give them a decision , or waiting for a stupid teammate to stop doing the "i gotta pee!" dance for a HMG or somesuch.
seeing as the marine commander needs to scroll all around to drop things for the marines, and two gorges can both be out taking over resc spots and setting up defense and hives, theres a bigass edge there.
Want to know what I think would balance it more?
perhaps Marine CLASSES, such as, the commander makes you a medic, so one of your slots now has a healing pack in it(you spawn in with this and possibly cant use heavy armor), so you can heal like a gorge , albeit needing to be closer and the person needs to stand still, also the addition of a strong melee-esque weapon for the marines besides the welder would be great, like a flamethrower... Why have I not seen a flamethrower in NS?
a new upgrade perhaps? NS does involve Nanotech, so why not an upgrade to <i>Slowly</i> refill your ammunition(faster for guns that eat ammo like a mofo.)?
anyway I'm about to give up on marines, with all the stupid team-mates and commanders I've dealt with. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
cant say that your post wasnt heavily talking the marines cause<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps its just word spliting to read what I've actually written, DarkSpawn, but understand that it will increase your chances of making false charges. In this thread I've said:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not proposing new ideas, I'm just trying to pinpoint why the aliens win more often than not, in my experience. I figured I should suggest solutions if I'm pointing out a problem, but I don't think any severe changes should be made.
In fact Reign, I don't think we should change any balance issues in the next patch. I just hadn't seen anyone point to the differences in expansion strategy, specifically resource nodes, as the reasons for aliens winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know what I've seen. I've made an analysis of the game, and I've come up with a slightly different conclusion than what I've seen other people talk about. As I think I made clear, I wasn't arguing for one team or another. That's irrelevant. I was pointing that I think the Marines loose because they have to expand slowly, as opposed to most balance arguments saying things like "onos r 2 tuff" "hmg is to powerful!!" "siege is redicerus" "ban siege" "invisible aliens omg how can u kill them?" Most people are focusing on very narrow aspects of the game, as I said before "People say it's turrets or towers, fades or fools." So please don't try to suppose I'm just arguing for my team, the one team I play. Don't try to reduce this to squabiling over weapons. Make your judgements on what I say, not what you think my motives are.
For your question, "can you enlighten us all with what happens if marines come across an undefended hive site?" I answer yes. The skulks jump all over them, or, if they are HA/HMGed marines, the fades battle them. Perhaps though the marines rushed for HA and HMGs, so the aliens don't have fades yet? Then the aliens are in a bit of a pickle, and this rush is just about the only strategy that works for Marines. What's happened in my experience though, is that to rush for this high technology the Marines invest less resources in their defense or expansion, meaning that if the skulks can fight off a group of HA HMG marines, they've likely won the round, since the Marines won't have the resources to re-equip or defend well against Kharaa attacks.
"location can be taken if nobody helps the turrets defend it."
True. It's tough for the commander to direct troops in defense while trying to expand though. Generally he has to choose one or the other. Be safe and conservative, and lose in the long run, or be risky and hope the aliens don't attack a certain post very hard. A great commander could operate smart marines on both expansive and defensive fronts, but even then the forces are being split, increasing the chances that marines will end up skulk food.
Please understand what I've said doesn't translate to "Its impossible to win as Marines." I've noticed that you have to tell people what you are not saying more than what you are saying on the internet. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
NS does involve Nanotech, so why not an upgrade to Slowly refill your ammunition(faster for guns that eat ammo like a mofo.)?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as you red in the manual:never ending nano is a big nono
yes noobs are willing to learn, thats what makes them great, look at me, i was the lauziest commander cos i didnt knew anything ( well upgrading and prerequzites)
i got coached one time and now i am a above average good and fast commander <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
yup the skraai are way faster due to better comminucations, why dont the marines have a feature on their helemts to see their allies (like the aliens) that way they could back eachother more efficient (offcource u need to call for one)
i usually call for my teammates to follow me but tey cant see who is saying that so that makes some nice misunderstandings, make a icon on top of his head or something i am talking about the menutalk, not the mictalk )
also to increase preformance for the marines, a player indicator (for the comm) would be nice (yust the names alone would be wonderful, no more searching where is he, asking for something)
if the comm yust could make some squad leaders ( team alpha bravo delta and gamma) and yust give the squad leader some waypoint and the rest (marines under comand of a squad leader) backing him up would be wonderfull
now if yust evrybody would cover eachother
or better yet move in groups of 3 or more
and we teach newbies how to play
the NS world would look way better
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> = a not too surprising outcome <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Another solution would be to devalue the power of two hives for the aliens, such as weakening umbra or fades .
To summarize, I think the Marines are losing because they can't expand as quickly as the aliens early on, because they must travel in packs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well lord chamber, I will have to start quoting you then. Here is what you said, well part of it anyways. You conclude with the aliens being superior and you do ask for cheaper shotguns, among other things. You dont seem to cope with the fact that the way this game is supposed to be played is very different for the two sides. But I have said my piece regarding this earlier.
In what ways am I not coping with the differences in play? For you to say that I presume you must disagree that the Marines lose because they can't expand as rapidly as the aliens. Is that a correct presumption? I realize I should ask first, because if I were to assume this is so then I'd have to go quote my explainations on how expanding slowly causes the Marines to lose, since we both understand that's the difference in play. I just can't assume that, because that would mean the Marines are meant to lose.
the marines have ONE commander, the aliens have as many commanders as gorges, they pretty much dont follow ONE person's plan, they talk to each other(like the marines were supposed to!) and formulate strats
i.e." you take the vent on the left, jimbo takes the one on the right, and when you see me shoot my acid rockets in the front door to distract them you guys fly in and kill them from behind"
see now the marines tend to sit around waiting for the blasted commander to give them a decision , or waiting for a stupid teammate to stop doing the "i gotta pee!" dance for a HMG or somesuch.
seeing as the marine commander needs to scroll all around to drop things for the marines, and two gorges can both be out taking over resc spots and setting up defense and hives, theres a bigass edge there.
Want to know what I think would balance it more?
perhaps Marine CLASSES, such as, the commander makes you a medic, so one of your slots now has a healing pack in it(you spawn in with this and possibly cant use heavy armor), so you can heal like a gorge , albeit needing to be closer and the person needs to stand still, also the addition of a strong melee-esque weapon for the marines besides the welder would be great, like a flamethrower... Why have I not seen a flamethrower in NS?
a new upgrade perhaps? NS does involve Nanotech, so why not an upgrade to <i>Slowly</i> refill your ammunition(faster for guns that eat ammo like a mofo.)?
anyway I'm about to give up on marines, with all the stupid team-mates and commanders I've dealt with. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is an INCREDIBLY good idea.
EDIT: Talking about the classes idea.
As far as the early game alien advantage goes, here are my two cents:
The game is difficult for marines to win when their aim is so poor that they can't shoot a skulk running head on. When I play with talented marines, they can usually shoot down multiple skulks by strafe jumping / wall-sliding without too much effort. When I play with newbie marines I see one skulk take out an entire squad.
However, as marines tech up to heavy armor and HMGs, aim generally becomes less important. Aliens usually morph into fades which are almost impossible to miss, and marines have time to correct their aim because their heavy armor protects them.
The skill of the commander is, in my opinion, the most important factor in deciding whether marines win or lose. Even with a very mediocre team, it is impossible NOT to lose as commander if they properly employ siege turrets. There are certain areas where well placed siege turrets can cover multiple resource nodes in rooms that aren't even remotely connected to the room that the turret is in. -=For example, siege turrets placed in the Holoroom on Hera (I think that's the mapname) can cover 4-5 resource nodes. That means if a Gorge tries to build there, he'd lose the collector and might get blown up himself. On that same map, siege turrets placed in the Processing room can cover two hives (the one with the whirlpool under it and the hive north of the Processing room.)=-
All a commander really needs to do is to properly exploit siege towers to win a game. It forces the aliens to assault (as opposed to ambush) a heavily defended encampment (if you have siege towers, you should have sentries in the area as well) that is guarded by marines in HAs w/ HMGs. An alien team would have to vastly outskill the marines in order to win. A proper turret push would involve 6-8 siege towers (which cost less than normal towers). 6-8 siege towers will level a hive before the aliens can kill them. Also, having the commander save up for 6-8 siege towers and defenses for them is much easier than having one gorge save up for a hive, especially if other siege turrets cover resource nodes.
Once again, I'm not trying to allocate all the alien wins to Marines need for slower expansion. I think everyone understands its a more complex set of circumstances that allow one team to win over another. People often bring up skill levels and teamwork. Certainly those are important for a team to win or lose, but they are variable, so I don't care too much to discuss them. Here in this thread, I've designated slow/fast expansion, and through DarkSpawn asking "can you enlighten us all with what happens if marines come across an undefended hive site", and your post fgStratus, I've been heading toward a conclusion that resources might not be as important. The marines, in theory, should be able to win with agressive building tactics, by sealing off hives and resource points. It's an interesting conflict, to me, because the only thing that makes the Marines more powerful are resources, so they should seek them out, but on the other hand they can't only go for resources or they'll lose. It seems they need to be agressive and attack, even without resources - the resources that let them stand up to skulks, towers, and fades.
Well, my head is spinning in a circle, but maybe I can make a few conclusions. I haven't really seen it happen, but fgStratus' siege turret attack sounds very viable, for decently skilled marines (which I do all my considerations with). And I've completely lost my train of thought. I guess that's all for now. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->