I think this belongs just fine in the general forum. I'm not proposing new ideas, I'm just trying to pinpoint why the aliens win more often than not, in my experience. I figured I should suggest solutions if I'm pointing out a problem, but I don't think any severe changes should be made. In three weeks we'll see if the Marines have found way to win, and we'll know if adjustments need to be made.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->aliens get a fade, or worse yet an onos, and you know you're dead<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's half your trouble right there. Using teamwork and a bit of bravado, a fade dies pretty easily to upgraded marines.
Onos is a different story. Seeing an onos tells you that: 1) You've failed at the prime goal of the marine team - keeping the aliens from getting the third hive. This is usually due to poor teamwork. You should secure a hive early on and fortify it or even turn it into your main base.
2) Because of the first point, you have a limited time to kill a hive. You need to get a team OUT of your base and destroy a hive ASAP or you WILL lose. The commander should leave half back home to defend (Onos die just like any other alien if you pump enough lead into em) and send the other half out on a demolition mission. Of course, this requires the missing teamwork which is probably the reason you're in this mess in the first place.
Well, one reason the marines lose so often is because all of the CS players are migrating over and spend the entire damn game camping in the base saying crap like:
"shotty plz"
and
"ha and hmg plz"
and of course, the ever-hated
"gl welder and jpack plz"
It's just ridiculous when half your team is bitching for guns that they'll lose in 40 seconds. I think there needs to be a bitchslap command for the commanders, but that would be abused.
My biggest problems with marines is the poor teamwork. And especially when it is a bad commander.
So, start teaching all the n00bs or Quakeminded folks: Stick together 3 and 3. Don't go rushing off on your own.
Don't beg for weapons and armor.
Ask your commander to MAKE A PLAN and tell it. To reach resource node THIS and fortify it. To get to node THAT etc.
Marines lose because the lone ranger is extremely detracting from the play. If they'd JUST stick together, there would be a chance for a little more succes. Too many marine expansions are nipped in the bud by skulk assaults. I know, because I've <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> 'ed them time after time. And been so myself. I have played a good game where our commander knew what he was doing and we took the orders - and stuck together.
But then some "?%&#%?& player started to spam the command wiht some sort of script and he left in disgust. Of course, said player then assumed command and absolutely SUCKED at it. Don't give your commander grief <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Some of what makes a commander bad is the interface. Where's my troop monitor so I can find a particular guy fast and drop a bit of HP on him? It would be nice with a commands palette menu also. A "Select all troops" button or "order all troops to go here" without building stuff.
I almost always play alien, I dont like marines much except when I'm com. The major problem I have with the marines is the comm. Your comm can be a blessing or a curse. If he's good, he'll be helping you, healing you, and keeping you good throughout the game. You'll secure forward bases and eventually the dreaded siege cannon will rip alien bases appart. (And trust me, aliens REALLY hate siege cannons =p) But with a bad commander, things get ugly. Last game I played as marine where I wasnt comm I went to secure the vent hive in hera (since it's fairly close to our base and almost always the last hive aliens take on that map). I had to BEG my commander to even build a resource tower there. After 2 mins of asking for a tower I finally got one and asked for tfac and turrets. More begging later I get the tfac. Once the tfac was done he built 3 turrets, and all on one side of the factory. I asked him to build more turrets and a phase gate because this base could be taken out by one skulk. (very very easily since they can just hide behind tfac and kill it) Nothing happens. A little later 2 skulks jump me and kill me. I run back over, base gone ang a gorge is already setting up offense chambers.... Then the guy leaves the game so I take over the comm. I find out he had built almost nothing. So I started to wonder what he spend all those resources on... I know we had the holoroom (the one with 2 nodes) for a while, and the mini base (very mini =p) at the hive... but other then that, no upgrades done, some buildings missing. (no advanced tfac, no siege, no prototype lab)
Well, there's my reason for not playing human. =p I hate depending on one guy. If the comm sucks, the team sucks. If one alien sucks, well, the team doesnt have much help from him, but that's about it. Even sucky alien players can do some good by harassing enemies. (which they most likely will do, playing the game as if it's deathmatch) A sucky marine is less good then a sucky alien. (since skulk owns unupgraded bad marine players) And worst, a sucky commander means marines lose. The only thing that can really go wrong like that for aliens is too many gorges, which slows down expansion. (And too many gorges actually happens quite often)
The times I did see marines beat aliens they always had a good comm. They went out in small hunting parties which the comm kept allive. (And trust me, a resource tower from aliens goes down rather fast to a knife =p) That forces aliens to defend their resources. Sure 3-4 offensive chambers and 3 defensive chambers is about impossible to get through without HMG or GL, but that costs 78-94 rp, which could be used for a hive. I think best thing for marines to do early is secure one hive (very important, if the aliens get 3 hives = lose game) and then go send like one small group out to hunt the resources nodes and new hives. Aliens almost never build defense at a resource tower early on, so it's easy to take out. (Newbies wont care if they hear resources tower under attack, and most other players still dont know the maps too well so might arrive too late) Same thing goes for hives... A gorge almost always saves up for a hive only and doesnt build defense untill the hive is purchased, so if you rush to the hives fast (set up base in one, then check out the 2 others) you might be able to take out the new hive under construction, or even the original hive. (seen that happen sometimes too, that nobody bothers to defend it)
All together, I think it's balanced... But as long as a lot of marines suck and a lot of sucky commanders play you wont be able to tell for certain. =p
I recall having a player called Tempest on our server today, if I was the COMM then SORRY!!
I don't think it was me, but I played COMM for the first time today so I will almost certainly have screwed up a couple of times. Thankfully there were not many experienced/good marines on my team to point it out (if there had been, I wouldn't have been COMM).
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Yea, its almost as expensive as an HMG. The high cost is due to the early availability. Makes it a tough choice - is a marine really good enough to get a shotgun that early?
Commanders ARE loath to hand out shotguns. Which is a Good Thing.
Well, all I know is that I have played at least 15 games, and every single game resulted in the Aliens winning. Mind you, this was on different servers, at different times of day, with different players. They can't ALL have been bad!
Why? Well that is more difficult... I remember playing on a beta patch server and thinking "wow this balance is great!", yet when the final patch came out it all had changed. One thing was the nerfing of the GL. The beta had everything else applied except the nerfed GL, and it seemed to go really well. Another thing is the fades. I have screenshots that show the entire time as fades (with maybe one or gorges) on a 20 plus server, and the marines just got owned, even with fully upgraded, aggressive tactics. Too much harrassment on to many fronts.
As many have said, a good Com changes all that. But even a good com struggles BADLY against good aliens, because they can overload the system with multiple attacks on many fronts- something that the marines can not do. As the mod makers themselves have said, the ALIENS are about defence, yet quite clearly on most games this is not happening- the marines are getting hit all over the place and can't react quick enough. They lose the initiative, and eventually lose the game.
I wont even mention skulk rush on small maps.
The funny thing is, it would probably only take one small tweek somewhere to even things up. Its like the Marines always come so close to putting up a decent fight, only to lose out in the end. Maybe switching around abilities? Or de-nerfing GL? Or maybe even reducing cost of something for the marines (like the shotgun). All I know is that currently it is close to being balanced... but something is still out.
I play both sides a good bit, and I've been playing WAY too much lately (great MOD!). I have also commanded a good bit, and have been told that I am a good commander.
It's still a tad early to judge the balance of 1.01 in my opinion. It is very true that noob marines are several times more damaging to the marine team than noob aliens are to their team. Which is by design. This is one problem marine players are feeling. From a commander's point of view, if you have one or two marines that refuse to follow directions, your team is severly impacted. Not only do these guys ignore commands and waste resources getting themselves killed, but they spam up the channels and voice comm begging for equipment (or ammo while they are in some vent you didn't want them in).
On the other hand, veteran aliens are much more beneficial to the alien team than vet marines are to the human team, though not severely. For instance, an excellent skulk player can really give the marines a hard time in the early game. One great skulk can exterminate entire marine teams. Which I don't think is unbalanced, it will be fine once marines learn how to combat them a bit better. Such as with early Motion Detection. Verteran aliens can also take down turrent farms single-handedly, and probably in under a minute. I don't care how you place the turrets, or how many, they can do it. Which brings me to the only concern I really have: The Turrent Factory.
As a commander, protecting resource points, the hive base, and main base is a very daunting task, especially if you are trying to push anywhere else. All of these <i>must</i> be connected by Phase Gates or you <i>will</i> lose them. Period. The problem is that as soon as you are ready to push, you have a Fade or Lerk attacking in one or more of these areas. And if you have to ignore that area for any length of time, a single Fade, Lerk, or even Skulk will take them down. I know, I do it all of the time. A single Fade with adrenaline and carapace can take out a turret factory with 3 turrets firing at him (he can duck behind the factory to avoid the other turrets). And if he must, he can just blink out, heal, and blink back to finish it off. Or he can just die and finish it with a skulk when he respawns.
So the solution is to send marines through the Phase Gates to defend, then return to the front lines where you were pushing. However, if fades are attacking multiple areas at once (which always happens), you are pretty much going to lose one area if you don't abandon your forward push. And if you decide to send marines back to defend off the attacks, you are likely going to lose whatever resources you have put into that forward push (phase gates, turret factories, etc). Add to this fact that any undefended resource tower (you can't factory them all up) will eventually get attacked by skulks, and commanders have to pick which sites to lose if they are going to have any chance at advancing towards Hive 2.
Now I've won against pretty good alien teams as commander, but it is extremely stressful, hectic, and almost unmanageable. I really do favor playing as the aliens, but personally I think the Turret Factories are too much of a weakness. I think their powering the STs should remain, I just think the TF themselves should perhaps be given a little more hitpoints. That way, the aliens will have to at least work in pairs to take them down. Currently, they do not. And since a single alien player can take these sites down, it allows the aliens an almost constant string of high-threat attacks, all over the map. Which makes holding zones extremely difficult for marines.
So that's my spill. I think TFs should be given a few more hitpoints, but I'm willing to wait it out and see if anyone comes up with some good counters to the "fades are attacking everywhere at once" phenomenon.
I think we just need to work out the bugs with building damage (both sides). <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
1) Shotgun at close- to mid-range is the ONLY one-hit kill weapon in the game, with the semi-exception of the Onos Gore (which will kill an unupgraded marine in 1 hit, barely). It's also usually the first non-starting weapon available, for either team. Any skulk that's come up against an early-game team of marines toting a shotgun or two knows just how worth the 20 RPs they can be in the right hands. I've commanded [FoR]Storm before... I dropped her HA and an HMG... she *dropped* the HMG and said "eww... gimme a shotty!"
2) When the marines learn teamwork, the aliens are going to be in for a shock - a coordinated team of 5 marines heading for a hive with competent commander support is UNSTOPPABLE. That is the marines' key to victory: teamwork.
3) Arguing balance is a pretty tricky thing to do right now; the game has only been out 10 days. Keep in mind that this isn't just an FPS - at its heart, Natural Selection is a full-blown RTS. Balance judgements can't be made intelligently until people take the time to think about strategies and counterstrategies for both teams. Another thing people need to remember is that on BOTH teams (even aliens), score really doesn't matter. Your deaths mean nothing in the long run - the only thing that matters is which team still has a spawn point at the end of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your comm can be a blessing or a curse. If he's good, he'll be helping you, healing you, and keeping you good throughout the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True, the only thing i really want as a comm is player indicator ( freaturing names of the players as wel as their locations and needs (if any) also if u click on the name of the player your view will be centred on him, so you can give him the ammo/health he want very quikly) That way the efficienty of a commander will increase
Maybe the makers of NS can implent a commander hazzard cource in the next release to make to make players familliar whith commanding.
Maybe another frature to increase the probability of the marines to win is to make the turning of the sentry guns client side, instead of server side. that way the marines may have (maybe the skraai too) a lower ping. I dont know becouse i dont know much about mods (but I do about engines) the engine of half life can make the turning of a sentry gun a client side freature and automaticly face in the direction of any approaching enemy's, but maybe that bugs whith the dammage/locking on the alliens (depends on the locomotor of the SG's) or when more than 2 alliens attack a SG can face allien 2 while acctually shooting at no.1 (although that isnt such a big issue, who is paying attention to firering sg's when you're in the middle of a firefight ?!?, maybe spectators?) anyway if the locomotor of the SG's in NS are almost the same as in TFC it is possible to let the SG's turn client side
its true, marines rely on teamwork. without teamwork they will loose. without good commander who knows what to do, they will loose. if you wanna play rambo then this is the wrong game for you (at least on the marines side). go back playing CS or those other childish games. the sides are pretty balanced right now. marines can kill 2 skulks with one LMG mag and kill almost 2 skulks with one pistol mag not to mention the overpowered knife and their ducking strategy (bug?)!!! ive seen a group of 2 marines take out a full health (and well skilled) fade with just LMG and pistol very fast. and if the marines get to know how its done, aliens ARE DONE FOR. there are 4 IMPORTANT positions BOTH teams need to capture in this game. the 3 hives and the marine base. if the marines have 2 hives and their base, aliens are dead meat. if aliens got 3 hives, marines are dead meat. if the aliens got 2 hives and the marines got 1 and their base, its very even and often I play games in this situation that last 3h+. and even then aliens will loose ground slowly because marines will come with siege cannons which cant be countered when they are well defended. they gonna spam with grenades and they got full armor and HMG teams that will wipe out 3 fades with no problem. let the skill settle for a month or so you will see that the aliens will be underpowered again.
heck yut like cool hand says, once we (the marines) know how to use the command console effieciently, and work in team alliens are done for. but just like in real life (remember WW2) the opposing (usually losing) side comes whith a new tactic/tecnology. most likely the alliens will grow a new organ or something <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--Bridger+Nov 10 2002, 10:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bridger @ Nov 10 2002, 10:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i've thought shotgun should cost less anyway. It's only 5 less than HMG but it's DEFINATLY not anywhere near as effective as HMG.
10 or 15 would be better for shotgun, right now it's just not very cost effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A shotgun doesn't slow you down like an HMG, and doesn't require any expensive upgrades nor time before it becomes available. Thus, the seemingly high price compared to the HMG.
Giving someone a shotgun should be a hard decision for the commander.
the shotgun is very effective against fades and skulks. one shot and the skulk is dead. and you got 10 of them before you have to reload. fades will lose 60 armor if hit once by a shotgun (I didnt watch health) now you hit him a few times coupled with evasive manouvers and hes dead pretty fast. people who are skilled at aiming rock aliens with the shotgun like there is no tomorrow.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
edited November 2002
<!--QuoteBegin--HavoK+Nov 11 2002, 10:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HavoK @ Nov 11 2002, 10:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's still a tad early to judge the balance of 1.01 in my opinion. It is very true that noob marines are several times more damaging to the marine team than noob aliens are to their team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Can't really agree with that. A noob alien player or two can CRIPPLE the alien team quite dramatically. Just go Gorge early on and do everything wrong, like they usually do.
Nothing like noticing that it's just you and another guy rushing, while you have 4 people gestating 20 seconds into the game :-(.
Alien tactics are quite constrained. The marines MUST be attacked hard at the beginning. After the initial rush, any group of marines leaving the base is to be parasited, then hunted down. The marines CANNOT be allowed to expand freely. IF they get any expansion point, they must be forced to defend it heavily or loose it.
In the meantime, the SINGLE gorge (because you need all the skulks you can get, and a single gorge will build MUCH, MUCH faster than two ... about half time to first resource tower, in fact) builds resource towers as fast as possible. Once three resource towers are up, another player goes gorge and builds another resource tower and then DC's and OC's, and at this time (about 10 minutes into the game), the second hive comes up as well.
All this fails miserably if you get even a single noob player going gorge early on. So yes, the aliens are QUITE affected by noob players, potentially more so than the marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE There's half your trouble right there. Using teamwork and a bit of bravado, a fade dies pretty easily to upgraded marines.
Onos is a different story. Seeing an onos tells you that: 1) You've failed at the prime goal of the marine team - keeping the aliens from getting the third hive. This is usually due to poor teamwork. You should secure a hive early on and fortify it or even turn it into your main base.
2) Because of the first point, you have a limited time to kill a hive. You need to get a team OUT of your base and destroy a hive ASAP or you WILL lose. The commander should leave half back home to defend (Onos die just like any other alien if you pump enough lead into em) and send the other half out on a demolition mission. Of course, this requires the missing teamwork which is probably the reason you're in this mess in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well in one game I was commanding and this happened to my team. We losely secured the resource nodes in between the Mess Hall and Mother Interface.
Gawd! The Fades are pounding on our outposts everywhere!
And then the Onos came. I thought my team was screwed.
Then I ordered my team of HA/HMG/SG marines to go into Subspace Interface, luckily that Hive is very undefended, and they ripped it apart.
At this moment, the Fades are clawing through my Command Console. I immediately set up a new base in the hive.
lol <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> The Kharaa team even said, "gg"
Teams were still even then.
But sadly, dunno what reasons, after a while most of the Kharaa team players left, I think its due to the time. It's 5am in the morning!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Keep in mind that this isn't just an FPS - at its heart, Natural Selection is a full-blown RTS. Balance judgements can't be made intelligently until people take the time to think about strategies and counterstrategies for both teams. Another thing people need to remember is that on BOTH teams (even aliens), score really doesn't matter. Your deaths mean nothing in the long run - the only thing that matters is which team still has a spawn point at the end of the game<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sadly many new players fail to realise this.
A friendly reminder : <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
NS is not a typical FPS, its a RTS with heavy zone control elements, except that every unit is controlled by a different individual through 1st person view.
Having leet FPS skills may slightly help a bit, but common sense, strategic mind and great sense of team work is more valued than leet FPS skills.
<b>Its all about zone control :</b>
Capture the zones, secure the zones, deny one's opponent of the zones and one might just find one's path to victory.
Fear not when one's zone appears to be captured and secured by one's opponent, if one puts in enough effort one is able to reclaim the zones.
<b>Its all about team work :</b>
Listen to your team mates, know what is going on.
<b>Its all about everyone playing their roles right :</b>
- Skulks keeps Marines busy while Gorges secure the zones (1st 5-10 minutes of a game) - Marines moving out as a team to secure the zones while the Commander looks after them - etc
Matso you coulndt have said it better . The final outcome is:
n00bs = should be <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> . nuff said
Granted ill help ppl out but hell read the manual, get on the forums, make a game and LEARN!!! if you can understand that its not a hard concept guys damn.
Well, as far as trying to becomeing a good comm.. its kinda hard ill admit because you will be bitched at by every soldier you have if you are just seconds behind on their "orders" . I had a bad attempt of trying to be a comm other day I have read the boards tried it all(im alien man myself) but hell it wasnt easy i sucked at it ill admit it and if i was on your team srry about the suckiness but everyone has to get better somehow
Being a soldier/alien is much easier .... good comm's take alot of practice.
Maybe I am a crappy player, but after a bunch of hours playing this game, I easily get killed by a marine, (as a skulk), unless I take the time to sneak very carefully around him. So I need to spend lots of time (skulking) in corners or in the roof to be able to kill that marine. And if he isnt alone I probably wont make it. Now I dont mind that, what I do mind is that if the thread-starter gets his will, I wont be able to do even that, the moment I show myself I will get blasted by a shotgun with a single shot.
On my server the winning team goes back and forth all the time. If the obvious "marines-player" who started this thread gets his will, I fear the balance will be severely upset again. I really hope the rumoured cheaper shotgun in the 1.02 patch, also is a lot less effective. But then it wont be so much fun to use, so I would really have liked to keep it the way it is. A weaker shotgun would then need two shots to kill a skulk I guess, and that is death for the marine.
Just for the record, I play both sides about 50-50, and what I enjoy very much is the different ways the two sides are ment to be played. Some of the argumentation I see in these forums, seem to be base on balancing teams like in cs or tfc or dod. What so many fail to understand is that the nature of the game is so that one side has advantages with a certain tactic, and another side is vulnerable to it, and vica verca. If an alien doesnt have advantages over a single marine running around exploring the map I fail to see the point of the entire mod. Luckily though, I know the developers thought exactly like this when they created this game. I just hope whining from kids not understanding the game, wont make the developers compromise and ruin things.
<!--QuoteBegin--DarkSpawn+Nov 12 2002, 08:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkSpawn @ Nov 12 2002, 08:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe I am a crappy player, but after a bunch of hours playing this game, I easily get killed by a marine, (as a skulk), unless I take the time to sneak very carefully around him. So I need to spend lots of time (skulking) in corners or in the roof to be able to kill that marine. And if he isnt alone I probably wont make it. Now I dont mind that, what I do mind is that if the thread-starter gets his will, I wont be able to do even that, the moment I show myself I will get blasted by a shotgun with a single shot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. Cheaper shotties would be crippling for Skulks. Cheaper, yet weaker, shotties would be bad for gameplay me thinks.
As far as skulking goes, try using the walls to your advantange. If the marine is parasited (which he almost always should be) you can use the architecture as cover. Come from behind, attack, run around a structure, up the wall, around him and attack again. Try it in the maintenance room on Hera or the Sewer Vestibule Sublevel on Caged. I've slaughtered many a descent marine team in those areas.
If you are playing on Eclipse, well skulks are at a disadvantage on that map anyway, unless you ambush them in Triad.
Havok, you identified exactly what the problem is in your earlier post. Everyone understands that individual Marines are just skulk food, for players better than DarkSpawn. Individual skulks conversely, are high level threats to turret factories and resource nodes. It takes a large amount of defense to keep a skulk from destroying some Marine territory, defense that the Kharaa don't have to spend. The fast moving, vent traveling, hive-site using skulks act as a mobile defense that cost no resources, thus the Kharaa can expand more rapidly. While each team has advantages and disavantages, strategies and counter strategies, no team will win against an opponent that has expanded faster safely, and consolidated power across the map.
Anyway, I probably don't need to reiterate my point over and over again. It's just the occasional person like DarkSpawn who base their reactions on their own biases and experiences, instead of what one actually types in their post.
You can consider that a challege Dark. Show me with my own words how I am an "obvious 'marines-player'", how you know I started this thread to get my will, and then go ahead and tell me exactly what my will is.
I do admit that I may have exaggerated calling you an obvious marine player, I considered removing it, but you cant say that your post wasnt heavily talking the marines cause either, so I kept it.
Anyways, you say that the Khaara dont have to spend resources for defence, the way the marines do. Well can you enlighten us all with what happens if marines come across an undefended hive site?
Yes a skulk coming across a resource tower with only one turret, the turret factory, and the node, will have a good time, since he can cover behind the turret factory and do his thing. But the marines are not supposed to sit by and go "Oh there our node site is under attack, oh well it should be able to take care of itself..." which it shouldnt, any location can be taken if nobody helps the turrets defend it.
Now, as for your will, do you mean to say that you dont want the cheaper shotguns you mentioned? And finally I wont go into a word splitting contest and start quoting you all over, so you'll just have to be satisfied with this response.
<!--QuoteBegin--FaceOff+Nov 13 2002, 02:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FaceOff @ Nov 13 2002, 02:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Matso you coulndt have said it better . The final outcome is:
n00bs = should be <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> . nuff said <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? Your attitude is very short sighted. Without n00bs you'd never get the good players. Remember, we aren't born to be good at anything, really. Everything must be taught. Only way to become a good NS player is to play NS. The difference between a n00b and an arsehole is, the n00b wants to learn to play the game. And he learns from his mistakes, takes advice. The 'hole just plays Quake and keeps doing it.
Love the n00bs. Nurture them. Teach them that the only way to true victory and glory is the well oiled teamplay.
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> sends his fatty tubby love to the n00bs.
<!--QuoteBegin--Acrobad+Nov 13 2002, 07:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Acrobad @ Nov 13 2002, 07:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just think there needs ot be some practice scenario for the n00bs so they wont get falmed so much for their lack of knowledge (tactic)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Also, the pompous cows who calls themselves good players should learn to teach their young n00bs better. Easy to blame it all on the n00bs, but they GOT to start some place... a tutorial would remove a little of the problems, but the big ones are really that people can't grasp the tactics and the strategy of the game. That can't be taught in any tutorial, only under live fire.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyways, you say that the Khaara dont have to spend resources for defence, the way the marines do. Well can you enlighten us all with what happens if marines come across an undefended hive site?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We do nothing because we don't have enough bullets to kill a hive. If we decide to try, we waste all our bullets, and skulks kill the person watching out for attacks, and then they kill us. While this is going on they are getting more resources and/or hives.
Then the fades come and cut us up. Lose.
Just played a game. Dunno what map it was (the one with the feedwater hive). We're doing pretty good, repelling early skulk rushes, then we expand to the 2 resource expansion. Secure that. Then move to feedwater. Nothing here. Set up shop. By this time we have HA/HMG. They have fades. OK, this is where it all goes to hell. Our squad of 4 HA/HMG against, 1 fade and 1 lerk. We're fully upgraded by the way. Anyway, fade comes up the ladder to feedwater with the lerk, lerk throws up umbra, fade pelts us with acid rockets. We keep retreating about 20 feet back to repair each others armor, then go back in for more. MOTHER **obscenity** FADE DOES NOT DIE. LERK DOES NOT DIE. One of us dies. Gorge comes up, starts webbing us. Oh we can't kill him 'cause umbra is **obscenity** impregnable. Cool, we're all webbed cause the gorge can shoot our feet for instant webbed marines. Fade comes in slashes 2 more of the squad. I'm the last one left, yeah, I have no chance. Clips me dumpin' in to that fade, oh wait umbra. Ha ha, no he won't die. Oh look I'm webbed and cut to **obscenity**. By the time we get back, **obscenity** defense towers are everywhere. Yeah, we lost.
Now, I'm not a newbie here ok, we stuck together, our commander was great, we had cash. Tell me how this situation was winnable, please. Umbra is too **obscenity** powerful. 7/8 bullets blocked? ALL WE HAVE IS BULLETS! Some GL's might have helped. No they wouldn't have, 'cause they have 5 defense chambers which <b>all</b> heal each other and the aliens.
The short list:
Fades were fine before the patch. Umbra: too **obscenity** powerful. Limit the number of healing agents for aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--Acrobad+Nov 10 2002, 06:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Acrobad @ Nov 10 2002, 06:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->seeing as how Marines do win once in a while,...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ..it is fair to conclude that it is harder for the marines not to suck than it is for aliens. that's an unbalanced game. the dev team seems to think so to since 1.02a changes the balance yet again. rumor has it, it is better than 1.01.
<!--QuoteBegin--Immacolata+Nov 13 2002, 06:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Immacolata @ Nov 13 2002, 06:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--FaceOff+Nov 13 2002, 02:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FaceOff @ Nov 13 2002, 02:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Matso you coulndt have said it better . The final outcome is:
n00bs = should be <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> . nuff said <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? Your attitude is very short sighted. Without n00bs you'd never get the good players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hey, some people are born as experts in everything (if you'd believe them). give m some slack...
Comments
There's half your trouble right there. Using teamwork and a bit of bravado, a fade dies pretty easily to upgraded marines.
Onos is a different story. Seeing an onos tells you that:
1) You've failed at the prime goal of the marine team - keeping the aliens from getting the third hive. This is usually due to poor teamwork. You should secure a hive early on and fortify it or even turn it into your main base.
2) Because of the first point, you have a limited time to kill a hive. You need to get a team OUT of your base and destroy a hive ASAP or you WILL lose. The commander should leave half back home to defend (Onos die just like any other alien if you pump enough lead into em) and send the other half out on a demolition mission. Of course, this requires the missing teamwork which is probably the reason you're in this mess in the first place.
"shotty plz"
and
"ha and hmg plz"
and of course, the ever-hated
"gl welder and jpack plz"
It's just ridiculous when half your team is bitching for guns that they'll lose in 40 seconds. I think there needs to be a bitchslap command for the commanders, but that would be abused.
So, start teaching all the n00bs or Quakeminded folks: Stick together 3 and 3. Don't go rushing off on your own.
Don't beg for weapons and armor.
Ask your commander to MAKE A PLAN and tell it. To reach resource node THIS and fortify it. To get to node THAT etc.
Marines lose because the lone ranger is extremely detracting from the play. If they'd JUST stick together, there would be a chance for a little more succes. Too many marine expansions are nipped in the bud by skulk assaults. I know, because I've <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> 'ed them time after time. And been so myself. I have played a good game where our commander knew what he was doing and we took the orders - and stuck together.
But then some "?%&#%?& player started to spam the command wiht some sort of script and he left in disgust. Of course, said player then assumed command and absolutely SUCKED at it. Don't give your commander grief <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Some of what makes a commander bad is the interface. Where's my troop monitor so I can find a particular guy fast and drop a bit of HP on him? It would be nice with a commands palette menu also. A "Select all troops" button or "order all troops to go here" without building stuff.
Well, there's my reason for not playing human. =p I hate depending on one guy. If the comm sucks, the team sucks. If one alien sucks, well, the team doesnt have much help from him, but that's about it. Even sucky alien players can do some good by harassing enemies. (which they most likely will do, playing the game as if it's deathmatch) A sucky marine is less good then a sucky alien. (since skulk owns unupgraded bad marine players) And worst, a sucky commander means marines lose. The only thing that can really go wrong like that for aliens is too many gorges, which slows down expansion. (And too many gorges actually happens quite often)
The times I did see marines beat aliens they always had a good comm. They went out in small hunting parties which the comm kept allive. (And trust me, a resource tower from aliens goes down rather fast to a knife =p) That forces aliens to defend their resources. Sure 3-4 offensive chambers and 3 defensive chambers is about impossible to get through without HMG or GL, but that costs 78-94 rp, which could be used for a hive. I think best thing for marines to do early is secure one hive (very important, if the aliens get 3 hives = lose game) and then go send like one small group out to hunt the resources nodes and new hives. Aliens almost never build defense at a resource tower early on, so it's easy to take out. (Newbies wont care if they hear resources tower under attack, and most other players still dont know the maps too well so might arrive too late) Same thing goes for hives... A gorge almost always saves up for a hive only and doesnt build defense untill the hive is purchased, so if you rush to the hives fast (set up base in one, then check out the 2 others) you might be able to take out the new hive under construction, or even the original hive. (seen that happen sometimes too, that nobody bothers to defend it)
All together, I think it's balanced... But as long as a lot of marines suck and a lot of sucky commanders play you wont be able to tell for certain. =p
I don't think it was me, but I played COMM for the first time today so I will almost certainly have screwed up a couple of times. Thankfully there were not many experienced/good marines on my team to point it out (if there had been, I wouldn't have been COMM).
Commanders ARE loath to hand out shotguns. Which is a Good Thing.
Why? Well that is more difficult... I remember playing on a beta patch server and thinking "wow this balance is great!", yet when the final patch came out it all had changed. One thing was the nerfing of the GL. The beta had everything else applied except the nerfed GL, and it seemed to go really well. Another thing is the fades. I have screenshots that show the entire time as fades (with maybe one or gorges) on a 20 plus server, and the marines just got owned, even with fully upgraded, aggressive tactics. Too much harrassment on to many fronts.
As many have said, a good Com changes all that. But even a good com struggles BADLY against good aliens, because they can overload the system with multiple attacks on many fronts- something that the marines can not do. As the mod makers themselves have said, the ALIENS are about defence, yet quite clearly on most games this is not happening- the marines are getting hit all over the place and can't react quick enough. They lose the initiative, and eventually lose the game.
I wont even mention skulk rush on small maps.
The funny thing is, it would probably only take one small tweek somewhere to even things up. Its like the Marines always come so close to putting up a decent fight, only to lose out in the end. Maybe switching around abilities? Or de-nerfing GL? Or maybe even reducing cost of something for the marines (like the shotgun). All I know is that currently it is close to being balanced... but something is still out.
It's still a tad early to judge the balance of 1.01 in my opinion. It is very true that noob marines are several times more damaging to the marine team than noob aliens are to their team. Which is by design. This is one problem marine players are feeling. From a commander's point of view, if you have one or two marines that refuse to follow directions, your team is severly impacted. Not only do these guys ignore commands and waste resources getting themselves killed, but they spam up the channels and voice comm begging for equipment (or ammo while they are in some vent you didn't want them in).
On the other hand, veteran aliens are much more beneficial to the alien team than vet marines are to the human team, though not severely. For instance, an excellent skulk player can really give the marines a hard time in the early game. One great skulk can exterminate entire marine teams. Which I don't think is unbalanced, it will be fine once marines learn how to combat them a bit better. Such as with early Motion Detection. Verteran aliens can also take down turrent farms single-handedly, and probably in under a minute. I don't care how you place the turrets, or how many, they can do it. Which brings me to the only concern I really have: The Turrent Factory.
As a commander, protecting resource points, the hive base, and main base is a very daunting task, especially if you are trying to push anywhere else. All of these <i>must</i> be connected by Phase Gates or you <i>will</i> lose them. Period. The problem is that as soon as you are ready to push, you have a Fade or Lerk attacking in one or more of these areas. And if you have to ignore that area for any length of time, a single Fade, Lerk, or even Skulk will take them down. I know, I do it all of the time. A single Fade with adrenaline and carapace can take out a turret factory with 3 turrets firing at him (he can duck behind the factory to avoid the other turrets). And if he must, he can just blink out, heal, and blink back to finish it off. Or he can just die and finish it with a skulk when he respawns.
So the solution is to send marines through the Phase Gates to defend, then return to the front lines where you were pushing. However, if fades are attacking multiple areas at once (which always happens), you are pretty much going to lose one area if you don't abandon your forward push. And if you decide to send marines back to defend off the attacks, you are likely going to lose whatever resources you have put into that forward push (phase gates, turret factories, etc). Add to this fact that any undefended resource tower (you can't factory them all up) will eventually get attacked by skulks, and commanders have to pick which sites to lose if they are going to have any chance at advancing towards Hive 2.
Now I've won against pretty good alien teams as commander, but it is extremely stressful, hectic, and almost unmanageable. I really do favor playing as the aliens, but personally I think the Turret Factories are too much of a weakness. I think their powering the STs should remain, I just think the TF themselves should perhaps be given a little more hitpoints. That way, the aliens will have to at least work in pairs to take them down. Currently, they do not. And since a single alien player can take these sites down, it allows the aliens an almost constant string of high-threat attacks, all over the map. Which makes holding zones extremely difficult for marines.
So that's my spill. I think TFs should be given a few more hitpoints, but I'm willing to wait it out and see if anyone comes up with some good counters to the "fades are attacking everywhere at once" phenomenon.
2) When the marines learn teamwork, the aliens are going to be in for a shock - a coordinated team of 5 marines heading for a hive with competent commander support is UNSTOPPABLE. That is the marines' key to victory: teamwork.
3) Arguing balance is a pretty tricky thing to do right now; the game has only been out 10 days. Keep in mind that this isn't just an FPS - at its heart, Natural Selection is a full-blown RTS. Balance judgements can't be made intelligently until people take the time to think about strategies and counterstrategies for both teams. Another thing people need to remember is that on BOTH teams (even aliens), score really doesn't matter. Your deaths mean nothing in the long run - the only thing that matters is which team still has a spawn point at the end of the game.
True, the only thing i really want as a comm is player indicator ( freaturing names of the players as wel as their locations and needs (if any) also if u click on the name of the player your view will be centred on him, so you can give him the ammo/health he want very quikly)
That way the efficienty of a commander will increase
Maybe the makers of NS can implent a commander hazzard cource in the next release to make to make players familliar whith commanding.
Maybe another frature to increase the probability of the marines to win is to make the turning of the sentry guns client side, instead of server side.
that way the marines may have (maybe the skraai too) a lower ping.
I dont know becouse i dont know much about mods (but I do about engines) the engine of half life can make the turning of a sentry gun a client side freature and automaticly face in the direction of any approaching enemy's, but maybe that bugs whith the dammage/locking on the alliens (depends on the locomotor of the SG's)
or when more than 2 alliens attack a SG can face allien 2 while acctually shooting at no.1 (although that isnt such a big issue, who is paying attention to firering sg's when you're in the middle of a firefight ?!?, maybe spectators?)
anyway if the locomotor of the SG's in NS are almost the same as in TFC it is possible to let the SG's turn client side
the sides are pretty balanced right now. marines can kill 2 skulks with one LMG mag and kill almost 2 skulks with one pistol mag not to mention the overpowered knife and their ducking strategy (bug?)!!! ive seen a group of 2 marines take out a full health (and well skilled) fade with just LMG and pistol very fast. and if the marines get to know how its done, aliens ARE DONE FOR.
there are 4 IMPORTANT positions BOTH teams need to capture in this game. the 3 hives and the marine base. if the marines have 2 hives and their base, aliens are dead meat. if aliens got 3 hives, marines are dead meat. if the aliens got 2 hives and the marines got 1 and their base, its very even and often I play games in this situation that last 3h+. and even then aliens will loose ground slowly because marines will come with siege cannons which cant be countered when they are well defended. they gonna spam with grenades and they got full armor and HMG teams that will wipe out 3 fades with no problem.
let the skill settle for a month or so you will see that the aliens will be underpowered again.
but just like in real life (remember WW2)
the opposing (usually losing) side comes whith a new tactic/tecnology.
most likely the alliens will grow a new organ or something <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> = gorgepat? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
(teamwork is the key)
10 or 15 would be better for shotgun, right now it's just not very cost effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A shotgun doesn't slow you down like an HMG, and doesn't require any expensive upgrades nor time before it becomes available. Thus, the seemingly high price compared to the HMG.
Giving someone a shotgun should be a hard decision for the commander.
Can't really agree with that. A noob alien player or two can CRIPPLE the alien team quite dramatically. Just go Gorge early on and do everything wrong, like they usually do.
Nothing like noticing that it's just you and another guy rushing, while you have 4 people gestating 20 seconds into the game :-(.
Alien tactics are quite constrained. The marines MUST be attacked hard at the beginning. After the initial rush, any group of marines leaving the base is to be parasited, then hunted down. The marines CANNOT be allowed to expand freely. IF they get any expansion point, they must be forced to defend it heavily or loose it.
In the meantime, the SINGLE gorge (because you need all the skulks you can get, and a single gorge will build MUCH, MUCH faster than two ... about half time to first resource tower, in fact) builds resource towers as fast as possible. Once three resource towers are up, another player goes gorge and builds another resource tower and then DC's and OC's, and at this time (about 10 minutes into the game), the second hive comes up as well.
All this fails miserably if you get even a single noob player going gorge early on. So yes, the aliens are QUITE affected by noob players, potentially more so than the marines.
There's half your trouble right there. Using teamwork and a bit of bravado, a fade dies pretty easily to upgraded marines.
Onos is a different story. Seeing an onos tells you that:
1) You've failed at the prime goal of the marine team - keeping the aliens from getting the third hive. This is usually due to poor teamwork. You should secure a hive early on and fortify it or even turn it into your main base.
2) Because of the first point, you have a limited time to kill a hive. You need to get a team OUT of your base and destroy a hive ASAP or you WILL lose. The commander should leave half back home to defend (Onos die just like any other alien if you pump enough lead into em) and send the other half out on a demolition mission. Of course, this requires the missing teamwork which is probably the reason you're in this mess in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well in one game I was commanding and this happened to my team. We losely secured the resource nodes in between the Mess Hall and Mother Interface.
Gawd! The Fades are pounding on our outposts everywhere!
And then the Onos came. I thought my team was screwed.
Then I ordered my team of HA/HMG/SG marines to go into Subspace Interface, luckily that Hive is very undefended, and they ripped it apart.
At this moment, the Fades are clawing through my Command Console. I immediately set up a new base in the hive.
lol <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> The Kharaa team even said, "gg"
Teams were still even then.
But sadly, dunno what reasons, after a while most of the Kharaa team players left, I think its due to the time. It's 5am in the morning!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Keep in mind that this isn't just an FPS - at its heart, Natural Selection is a full-blown RTS. Balance judgements can't be made intelligently until people take the time to think about strategies and counterstrategies for both teams. Another thing people need to remember is that on BOTH teams (even aliens), score really doesn't matter. Your deaths mean nothing in the long run - the only thing that matters is which team still has a spawn point at the end of the game<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sadly many new players fail to realise this.
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=17&t=9625' target='_blank'>http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/in...=ST&f=17&t=9625</a>
A friendly reminder : <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
NS is not a typical FPS, its a RTS with heavy zone control elements, except that every unit is controlled by a different individual through 1st person view.
Having leet FPS skills may slightly help a bit, but common sense, strategic mind and great sense of team work is more valued than leet FPS skills.
<b>Its all about zone control :</b>
Capture the zones, secure the zones, deny one's opponent of the zones and one might just find one's path to victory.
Fear not when one's zone appears to be captured and secured by one's opponent, if one puts in enough effort one is able to reclaim the zones.
<b>Its all about team work :</b>
Listen to your team mates, know what is going on.
<b>Its all about everyone playing their roles right :</b>
- Skulks keeps Marines busy while Gorges secure the zones (1st 5-10 minutes of a game)
- Marines moving out as a team to secure the zones while the Commander looks after them
- etc
n00bs = should be <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> . nuff said
Granted ill help ppl out but hell read the manual, get on the forums, make a game and LEARN!!! if you can understand that its not a hard concept guys damn.
Well, as far as trying to becomeing a good comm.. its kinda hard ill admit because you will be bitched at by every soldier you have if you are just seconds behind on their "orders" . I had a bad attempt of trying to be a comm other day I have read the boards tried it all(im alien man myself) but hell it wasnt easy i sucked at it ill admit it and if i was on your team srry about the suckiness but everyone has to get better somehow
Being a soldier/alien is much easier .... good comm's take alot of practice.
On my server the winning team goes back and forth all the time. If the obvious "marines-player" who started this thread gets his will, I fear the balance will be severely upset again.
I really hope the rumoured cheaper shotgun in the 1.02 patch, also is a lot less effective. But then it wont be so much fun to use, so I would really have liked to keep it the way it is. A weaker shotgun would then need two shots to kill a skulk I guess, and that is death for the marine.
Just for the record, I play both sides about 50-50, and what I enjoy very much is the different ways the two sides are ment to be played. Some of the argumentation I see in these forums, seem to be base on balancing teams like in cs or tfc or dod. What so many fail to understand is that the nature of the game is so that one side has advantages with a certain tactic, and another side is vulnerable to it, and vica verca. If an alien doesnt have advantages over a single marine running around exploring the map I fail to see the point of the entire mod. Luckily though, I know the developers thought exactly like this when they created this game. I just hope whining from kids not understanding the game, wont make the developers compromise and ruin things.
I agree. Cheaper shotties would be crippling for Skulks. Cheaper, yet weaker, shotties would be bad for gameplay me thinks.
As far as skulking goes, try using the walls to your advantange. If the marine is parasited (which he almost always should be) you can use the architecture as cover. Come from behind, attack, run around a structure, up the wall, around him and attack again. Try it in the maintenance room on Hera or the Sewer Vestibule Sublevel on Caged. I've slaughtered many a descent marine team in those areas.
If you are playing on Eclipse, well skulks are at a disadvantage on that map anyway, unless you ambush them in Triad.
Anyway, I probably don't need to reiterate my point over and over again. It's just the occasional person like DarkSpawn who base their reactions on their own biases and experiences, instead of what one actually types in their post.
You can consider that a challege Dark. Show me with my own words how I am an "obvious 'marines-player'", how you know I started this thread to get my will, and then go ahead and tell me exactly what my will is.
I do admit that I may have exaggerated calling you an obvious marine player, I considered removing it, but you cant say that your post wasnt heavily talking the marines cause either, so I kept it.
Anyways, you say that the Khaara dont have to spend resources for defence, the way the marines do. Well can you enlighten us all with what happens if marines come across an undefended hive site?
Yes a skulk coming across a resource tower with only one turret, the turret factory, and the node, will have a good time, since he can cover behind the turret factory and do his thing. But the marines are not supposed to sit by and go "Oh there our node site is under attack, oh well it should be able to take care of itself..." which it shouldnt, any location can be taken if nobody helps the turrets defend it.
Now, as for your will, do you mean to say that you dont want the cheaper shotguns you mentioned?
And finally I wont go into a word splitting contest and start quoting you all over, so you'll just have to be satisfied with this response.
Makes outpost maintainence easier.
n00bs = should be <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> . nuff said
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Why? Your attitude is very short sighted. Without n00bs you'd never get the good players. Remember, we aren't born to be good at anything, really. Everything must be taught. Only way to become a good NS player is to play NS. The difference between a n00b and an arsehole is, the n00b wants to learn to play the game. And he learns from his mistakes, takes advice. The 'hole just plays Quake and keeps doing it.
Love the n00bs. Nurture them. Teach them that the only way to true victory and glory is the well oiled teamplay.
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> sends his fatty tubby love to the n00bs.
Also, the pompous cows who calls themselves good players should learn to teach their young n00bs better. Easy to blame it all on the n00bs, but they GOT to start some place... a tutorial would remove a little of the problems, but the big ones are really that people can't grasp the tactics and the strategy of the game. That can't be taught in any tutorial, only under live fire.
We do nothing because we don't have enough bullets to kill a hive. If we decide to try, we waste all our bullets, and skulks kill the person watching out for attacks, and then they kill us. While this is going on they are getting more resources and/or hives.
Then the fades come and cut us up. Lose.
Just played a game. Dunno what map it was (the one with the feedwater hive). We're doing pretty good, repelling early skulk rushes, then we expand to the 2 resource expansion. Secure that. Then move to feedwater. Nothing here. Set up shop. By this time we have HA/HMG. They have fades. OK, this is where it all goes to hell. Our squad of 4 HA/HMG against, 1 fade and 1 lerk. We're fully upgraded by the way. Anyway, fade comes up the ladder to feedwater with the lerk, lerk throws up umbra, fade pelts us with acid rockets. We keep retreating about 20 feet back to repair each others armor, then go back in for more. MOTHER **obscenity** FADE DOES NOT DIE. LERK DOES NOT DIE. One of us dies. Gorge comes up, starts webbing us. Oh we can't kill him 'cause umbra is **obscenity** impregnable. Cool, we're all webbed cause the gorge can shoot our feet for instant webbed marines. Fade comes in slashes 2 more of the squad. I'm the last one left, yeah, I have no chance. Clips me dumpin' in to that fade, oh wait umbra. Ha ha, no he won't die. Oh look I'm webbed and cut to **obscenity**. By the time we get back, **obscenity** defense towers are everywhere. Yeah, we lost.
Now, I'm not a newbie here ok, we stuck together, our commander was great, we had cash. Tell me how this situation was winnable, please. Umbra is too **obscenity** powerful. 7/8 bullets blocked? ALL WE HAVE IS BULLETS! Some GL's might have helped. No they wouldn't have, 'cause they have 5 defense chambers which <b>all</b> heal each other and the aliens.
The short list:
Fades were fine before the patch.
Umbra: too **obscenity** powerful.
Limit the number of healing agents for aliens.
That is all.
P.S. Any suggestions for that situation?
..it is fair to conclude that it is harder for the marines not to suck than it is for aliens.
that's an unbalanced game.
the dev team seems to think so to since 1.02a changes the balance yet again. rumor has it, it is better than 1.01.
n00bs = should be <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> . nuff said
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Why? Your attitude is very short sighted. Without n00bs you'd never get the good players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hey, some people are born as experts in everything (if you'd believe them).
give m some slack...