Rush-rush-rush
illuminex
Join Date: 2004-03-13 Member: 27317Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2004-03-13 Member: 27317Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Why classic sucks for aliens.</div> I originally was for unchained chambers, but I then realized that it was a poor solution to a larger problem in NS, which is simply this: Rush-Rush-Rush, or 3xRush.
Rush #1: RT rush. With the res system designed for 6 vs 6, and the normal pub having, at minimum, 8 vs 8, the aliens are at an increasingly strong disadvantage unless they grab a fairly good sized amount of RT's.
Rush #2: 2nd Hive. Marines must lock two hives, aliens must hold onto 2 hives.
Rush #3: Fade rush, SG/MT/A1 rush. Both happen around the 5 minute mark, the fade one has to happen or else the aliens will lose.
Rush-Rush-Rush is a symptom of game time compression, where basically the devs have coerced players into rushing the game through the following changes:
1.) Quicker marine research time.
2.) Cheaper marine upgrades.
3.) Overpowered MT available within the first 5 minutes of the game.
4.) Nerfed default Kharaa unit.
5.) Cheap hive cost.
DMS is a symptom of 3xRush, because most fades require D first to be effective in holding off marines.
3xRush is good for marines and bad for kharaa. Kharaa, through having to re-gestate upon death, and having a 1 alien per hive respawn, have a disadvantage in the majority of games where NS is played. Many times the aliens are able to overcome this because of a poor Marine commander, or amazingly good teamwork, but the 3xRush's symptoms can even be seen in clan play, where aliens hardly win @ 6 vs 6 (where the game is supposed to be balanced at).
The only solution to 3xRush is to change the goal for game time. I understand that the devs don't want an average game time of 2 hours, but 15 minutes is a ludicrous time goal. A 15 minute game is better spent in combat than in classic.
A more realistic time goal is 40-50 minutes. The implementation of that time goal will force the necessary balance changes.
The game is unbalanced due to the game time. Marines thrive at all times. The Kharaa thrive only in longer game times.
Rush #1: RT rush. With the res system designed for 6 vs 6, and the normal pub having, at minimum, 8 vs 8, the aliens are at an increasingly strong disadvantage unless they grab a fairly good sized amount of RT's.
Rush #2: 2nd Hive. Marines must lock two hives, aliens must hold onto 2 hives.
Rush #3: Fade rush, SG/MT/A1 rush. Both happen around the 5 minute mark, the fade one has to happen or else the aliens will lose.
Rush-Rush-Rush is a symptom of game time compression, where basically the devs have coerced players into rushing the game through the following changes:
1.) Quicker marine research time.
2.) Cheaper marine upgrades.
3.) Overpowered MT available within the first 5 minutes of the game.
4.) Nerfed default Kharaa unit.
5.) Cheap hive cost.
DMS is a symptom of 3xRush, because most fades require D first to be effective in holding off marines.
3xRush is good for marines and bad for kharaa. Kharaa, through having to re-gestate upon death, and having a 1 alien per hive respawn, have a disadvantage in the majority of games where NS is played. Many times the aliens are able to overcome this because of a poor Marine commander, or amazingly good teamwork, but the 3xRush's symptoms can even be seen in clan play, where aliens hardly win @ 6 vs 6 (where the game is supposed to be balanced at).
The only solution to 3xRush is to change the goal for game time. I understand that the devs don't want an average game time of 2 hours, but 15 minutes is a ludicrous time goal. A 15 minute game is better spent in combat than in classic.
A more realistic time goal is 40-50 minutes. The implementation of that time goal will force the necessary balance changes.
The game is unbalanced due to the game time. Marines thrive at all times. The Kharaa thrive only in longer game times.
Comments
Scalable alien resource nodes. The more aliens on your team, the faster they pump out res. If you've got 12 Kharaa running about, res comes at 1 every 3 seconds instead of four (hopefully with values in between 6 and 12..)
Or just buff the aliens FFS. The huge problem with pub games is that only intelligent players go and drop RTs, and those intelligent players are often the best killers.. so you're either mauling everything and getting absolutely no res for the rest of your team, or you're giving a bunch of noobs tons of res so they can go Fade and die before Hive 2. On marines, you only need people who know how to stare at things and hold "E."
hahahaha that totally cracked me up. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
because it's so insanely true it's almost not funny. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It would help immesly. I usually tell (Read: Scream at) my team to drop rts or else ... I'll drop sens first. I know, I'm evil.
Seriously, it's cool to be able to chill out and not worry that my ineffectiveness isn't going to make any difference to the outcome of the marine win!
And my god, I'm so happy this thread was made...I'm glad I'm not the only one that hates these 10-15 minute games, and wants the old 40-50 minute games back!
With the sheer power of the base marine unit, not to mention their upgrades, powering through 2 hives isn't even much of a challenge.
I see more challenge and fun pulling off a DSM format alien win.. though I don't suggest it cause we won through sheer resource control and being able to replace lost lades quickly and painlessly... we also had all 3 upgrades cause the marines stealth nuked a hive while we were getting the 3rd built up...
Time is a necessity for the Kharaa team to win. The kharaa cannot win a 10 minute game unless they get a very lucky skulk rush. The aim for a 15-20 minute game, on average, is the thing that nerfs the kharaa more than anything. The Kharaa are designed to get better overtime on a very big scale. The leap to hive 2 is a necessity for a kharaa win. If marines screw up a hive lock down, or don't use their phase gates, all of which they can do and are available to them in the first 10 minutes, then the Kharaa have a real chance of winning. If they take down that 5 minute fade, they are pretty much guaranteed a win.
The marines are jack-of-all-trades, being effective at killing everything with their guns until a 5 part onos rush shows up, and the rush might not even break a strong marine turtle. If their commander is half decent, they will normally stay relatively on par with the aliens. In the beginning they have a very good advantage. Most skulks cannot dodge and fly around like some of us can; in comparison, most marines can manage to kill a single skulk with their full clip of lmg.
The beginning of the game has the Kharaa trying to rush for too many critical things with not enough res to effectively get the needs met. Even high level clan play reflects this, being more of a competition of "who can be the best marine." If devs aimed for a 40 minute average game time, most of the balance issues would solve themselves through the necessary changes.
Remember, it is far easier to balance marines than it is to balance the Kharaa.
1. Its much easier to kill alien as marine. When u play on pubs, there are always players who has frags like: 30/2 , 16/1 , 12/0 in marine team. Its because aliens doesnt understand to camp! Marines are camping. This is wrong, marines should be rushing and aliens camping not the opposite :/
2. 2 marines can easily take down 1 alien RT unless 3< skulks rushes on them. And building RT as alien is much more expensive. When marine is knifing alien RT everyone just screams: SAVE THE RT! But if alien is eating marine RT, half of commanders doesnt even say that alien is eating it. If alien eats it, 1 marine can just go and get it back quite easily.
3. Gorge is too expensive. Alien RT should cost like 10 res and gorge 5 res. Startoing res => 20
4. In most of maps, its very easy to siege hive, especially in ns_nancy, ns_eclipse, ns_ayumi, ns_agora etc... Sieging hive should be more difficult.
Aliens lose if:
1. No one builds second hive when it should.
2. No one builds DC =>
3. People dont want to fade without DC
4. No one fades
5. All go lerk at start or go gorge and build OC at hive or save for onos.
6. Marines siege or kill second hive when its coming up.
I also like the idea of lowering gorge cost to 2. That'll solve the problem of alien RTs costing "25" most of the time. RTs will be more easily replaced, making the loss slightly less painful for aliens.
Then, to mitigate the need for rushing the second hive, and at the same time stop the need to rush Fade (hey, suddenly the eggs are no longer all in one basket!) quite a few changes should be made.
1) The skulk needs to some buffs so they don't, for lack of a better word, suck so much against vanilla marines. Perhaps a slight speed and health boost. 100/10 and a 10% boost in base speed maybe? This helps early game.
2) The Fade is nerfed. It should cost a bit less (maybe 45 instead of 50), and then have the old 1.04 blink back. Its armor is lowered somewhat as well. The Fade will no longer be the one-alien killing machine it was. The entire alien team won't have to depend on one player's skills alone to win it for them.
2) Skulk upgrade cost is zero res, and the upgrade time is kept as it is now. All upgrades work better on skulks than on other units. For example focus might give a 120% bonus instead of a 100% bonus in damage. Carapace will give a 100% boost (like in a previous version) in effective health rather than 50%. Celerity might give a 50% boost instead of only 30% boost in speed. Cloaking will work faster on a skulk, requireit to stand still for a bit less time. Silence doesn't get a boost (can't think of a way to buff it without making it overpowered) etc. This will help in the stage of the game between skulk and Fade. Instead of say...introducing a new lifeform like a super-skulk which I have heard others mention in the past, the skulks that want to be tougher than the vanilla skulks will have to spend valuable time to get the upgrades. This will help in the stage where the marines have begun to get some upgrades (and hey, weapon1 will actually matter!) and the aliens need something to hold back the marines but the Fades haven't shown up yet.
3) Lerks get an armor boost, and a slight speed boost. Nothing much to be said here except that the lerk will be less wimpy, and will be a valuable asset early on in the game to help fight off marines.
4) All upgrade chambers still cost the same, but the build time on them has doubled. Also, upgrade chambers don't build themselves. This won't cripple the economy, but it'll help ensure that upgraded skulks don't pop up before the marines have a chance to upgrade a bit.
5) Marine research times are extended somewhat (and the cost maybe raised slightly). Helps slow the pace of the game down. Also makes new paths more popular, like using two armslabs. Advanced armorory upgrade time is doubled. The adv armory has a lot more hp than it does currently.
6) The hive costs 55 instead of 40, and has 1000 more health. This, again, slows the game down a bit, and to make up for the 15 extra res, the hive is harder to kill.
The end result is that now lerks and skulks are really able to hold back the marines without fade help for quite some time. The power of the aliens is distributed more evenly throughout the team, so there is less pressure on the Fade.
And I haven't even begun on the ONOS yet. I know I want it end up being tied to the second or third hive, and have its cost raised to 100, and I also want it to be more of a tank and less of a hit and run unit. The Onos discussion is for anotehr thread, however.
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Why not just make upgrade chambers build themselves twice as slow as OCs/RTs instead of completely eliminating it?
The Marines are supposed to have individuality, the Kharaa all work for the Hivemind.
And yet..
the opposite is true in game.
The Aliens are the only individuals. They can run off and do whatever, get their own resources, upgrade themselves. The Marines have to rely on one person to give them everything, and they have to do what he tells them.
For this reason, I have decided to switch the models. HAs shall climb walls and I will see Fades shooting bullets.
I think that was their reasoning ?:o could be wrong!
1.) Remove RFK.
2.) Skulk boosted to 70 HP, 20 AP.
3.) Marine research time slowed by 30 %.
4.) MT cost increased to 45 res.
5.) MT works by a full map 2 second pulse (shown as a blue circle) and 1 second pulses for individual marines for movement within 20 meters of that marine's position(shown as a red circle).
6.) Lerk boost: 15 AP, 10 HP.
7.) All marine build times take 15 % longer.
8.) All alien build times take 10 % longer.
9.) Gorge cost dropped to 5 res.
10.) OC cost dropped to 7 res.
11.) Marine RT's cost 5 + res, and have -500 hp.
12.) NS and CO maps both have a "boost" in the number of skulk hiding spots, particularly near critical chokepoints.
13.) Onos chained to hive 2.
14.) Hive costs 60 res, has 1000 more HP, takes 10 % longer to build.
15.) Lerk can fly backwards, but at 30 % of the max speed of normal straight flight.
16.) A more balanced res system given to the Kharaa that is balanced for 8 vs 8 or 9 vs 9 play.
That's all I can think of now. The point is to keep the game less tech and hive rush based, and more fighting over territory. The drop in OC cost gives the gorge a more critical beginning game role, besides dropping upgrade chambers and RT's. The OC's will give the Kharaa slightly better map control as well as slowing marine expansion down.
The early fades are no longer required to save the early game for the aliens, and therefore should be extremely difficult to obtain early on. The teams are therefore more focused on territory control (something which slows game time immensely), and will be more willing to spend resources fortifying more critical res nodes and chokepoints. Mowing through either team's defensive positions will require time, energy, and better teamwork.
The early game will now be about map control and hive control, with both sides working on slowing the other team down while expanding their territory. Battles will be occuring over platforms, ladders, and just about everywhere. Both sides will be working just as hard to get their positions as well fortified as possible. Rushes will be extremely risky, far more than they are now, because a lost rush results in the enemy team, if not overwhelming your base or hive, taking far more territory than they should have. Tactics will be far more interesting on both sides, forcing more dynamic gameplay.
Seems like a big list of pointless alien buffs and marine nerfs.
If you want the game to be longer, you don't buff and nerf attacking units... you make upgrades and research/timetobuild take longer. Yes there are some ideas like that in your list... but for some reason you feel both teams don't need to be changed the same amount.
Do you play the same NS I do? There are needed buffs, particularly for the alien team. Giving a class a buff is something important in slowing game time because it levels the playing field for the default classes. Lvl 0 marine > vanilla skulk, unless that skulk is damn good or just lucky.
If you'll noticed, I made some very large and general remarks about research times.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3.) Marine research time slowed by 30 %. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, if that right there doesn't slow the game down, I don't know what will.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->7.) All marine build times take 15 % longer.
8.) All alien build times take 10 % longer. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems to me that those offer quite a slowdown as well.
And hey, with the newer MT, skulks might actually be able to set up an ambush or two! What a gameslowing concept!
If you even read my original post, you'd see that I spend a long time thinking about this whole issue, because it has ticked me off beyond belief. I know that buffing aliens won't solve the biggest issues, but it is an important part of it. Can't control map territory if you cannot kill marines, now can you.
The devs have to look at the game and say "ok, the focus needs to be on gameplay instead of balancing a game around 15 minutes."
Your idea is to treat a symptom of a much larger disease. The devs need to have a different thought process about NS Classic, and that process involves slowing the ability for both sides to gain upgrades while creating a better balance between base units. The two teams are forced to care about territory control, something which is far costlier than hive control in terms of both res and time. It also requires more strategy, and better defense for both teams.
Both teams are unlikely to get rushed the second they lose some territory. However, in the current version, if either team, but particularly aliens, lose a node at one chokepoint, and they don't react quick enough, there is a very real chance that they will lose a hive. Territory control also allows both sides to plan attacks and long term game strategies better than they can now.
Edit: Just thought I should mention that PG's should not be nerfed. If the other changes in this thread are implemented, PG's would be perfect as they are now. They simply seem overpowered because the game has a heavy marine bias.
I mean look at the issues here, there are two being discussed. One is the rush rush rush side of things, the other we're now going in to is a bit of a DMS vs the rest issue.
To stop the rush rush rush, a help is to break the DMS stronghold on the game, which means giving marines something more to think about, and perhaps needing to think more strategically. To do this you don't need to go aroudn nerfing or buffing the chambers, but the dependancy on them.
For instance, the idea of skulks getting temp regen after a kill, takes dependance for skulks away from defence chambers, and gives more chance to moving faster and to sneak as alternative options.
But ultimately, maian is at least slightly right. You can almost never get rid of a marine base, especially not with electricity still around, once it's there...all it takes is one guy to put up a PG and a base can be up in a very short amount of time and almost impossible to stop or destroy. If this is going to continue to be the case then maybe we should look back even FURTHER to the problem of lone marines being able to quite freely and easily get around maps without feeling threatened by skulks (yes plural) coming after them, and being able to destroy or create stuff so easily.
Lone marines don't fear aliens any more, I know I don't...and it means that marines are getting around the maps faster, and the ability for aliens to lock down the map is diminishing. Whereas once the whole team was sent on missions to lockdown hives from even the early stages of getting a PG up, even getting RT's up...now marines split up and go on their own.
What surprises me is there seems to have evolved now the mentality that marines should be able to take out more than one skulk coming after him <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Seeming how marines can even have fun (with their cool toys) when losing because of the range and the chance of killing, whereas aliens lack the range and so end up with no chance of killing...I'm surprised that people are seemingly happy to have a marine so much stronger than a skulk one on one in real game terms.
In the old days marines had to hunt in packs, ordered by the comm to do tasks, and reclaim the map from the aliens who (fluff wise) had infested these maps and taken hold of them. The aliens were able to go around on their own and keep infesting the map, and if they found marines, alert everyone else.
*nooow* it's so much different. Marines do what aliens used to do, and aliens must hunt in packs all the time to even have a chance of surviving and encounter. In the old days aliens would get most of the map and then good or equal skilled marine teams would then be fighting to retake the map, usually halting the surge on the third hive...now marines get most of the map and it's aliens that are suually haulting the surge on their only hive. The game has inversed, aliens used to rush the map, and it made for fun games when more balanced...now marines rush the map (and the hive) and it makes for rubbish games, though it is unbalanced right now I still don't see the sense in it even if it were...it just defeats the purpose of aliens having three hives to get.
Balancing the game with a 40 minute or 50 minute time frame in mind will allow aliens and marines to be fighting over general map control in a way they currently do not. The above suggestions I've made are simply my opinion on the best way to go about fixing the gameplay and upgrade parameters to increase game length.
The skulk regeneration seems like it would suffer many of the same problems as other ideas of its type, namely excessive testing and the sheer volume of exploit possibilities.
Try and suggest changes to currently implemented game features, such as research times, HP/AP, damage amounts, res cost, build time, etc. Those are the aspects of the game that will affect balance and gameplay the most.
I just had some of the worst games I've ever played since 1.04 again. Reasons? Well one was that three marines at the end of a coridoor slaughtered 5 or 6 skulks coming at them. I don't care what people say about ambushing and the likes, since when should three marines be able to take out 6 skulks and live?
Another was one of my least favourite maps in the whole world...Lost I believe...whereby we were yet again (as always in that map) battling to shut down bases close to our hive (shotty rush, how surprising) but not being able to because EVERYWHERE is a LONG coridoor or room. The only time we got close was when all the marines went back to base to restock on ammo and I was able to take advantage of their building placement to half take down their PG...but then they were back and it was back to usual...being killed for fun because they have the range advantage. Nothing to do with how good aliens are...any marine can aim down a corridor that takes 2 or 3 seconds to jump down as a skulk and kill them, even in numbers.
It's such a problem, and it's an infuriating one. We actually had that last game finish so quickly that I believe they were going back in to the game for a secon d go that map...and the time limits are something like 10 minutes!
1.) Remove RFK.
2.) Skulk boosted to 70 HP, 20 AP.
3.) Marine research time slowed by 30 %.
4.) MT cost increased to 45 res.
5.) MT works by a full map 2 second pulse (shown as a blue circle) and 1 second pulses for individual marines for movement within 20 meters of that marine's position(shown as a red circle).
6.) Lerk boost: 15 AP, 10 HP.
7.) All marine build times take 15 % longer.
8.) All alien build times take 10 % longer.
9.) Gorge cost dropped to 5 res.
10.) OC cost dropped to 7 res.
11.) Marine RT's cost 5 + res, and have -500 hp.
12.) NS and CO maps both have a "boost" in the number of skulk hiding spots, particularly near critical chokepoints.
13.) Onos chained to hive 2.
14.) Hive costs 60 res, has 1000 more HP, takes 10 % longer to build.
15.) Lerk can fly backwards, but at 30 % of the max speed of normal straight flight.
16.) A more balanced res system given to the Kharaa that is balanced for 8 vs 8 or 9 vs 9 play.
That's all I can think of now. The point is to keep the game less tech and hive rush based, and more fighting over territory. The drop in OC cost gives the gorge a more critical beginning game role, besides dropping upgrade chambers and RT's. The OC's will give the Kharaa slightly better map control as well as slowing marine expansion down.
The early fades are no longer required to save the early game for the aliens, and therefore should be extremely difficult to obtain early on. The teams are therefore more focused on territory control (something which slows game time immensely), and will be more willing to spend resources fortifying more critical res nodes and chokepoints. Mowing through either team's defensive positions will require time, energy, and better teamwork.
The early game will now be about map control and hive control, with both sides working on slowing the other team down while expanding their territory. Battles will be occuring over platforms, ladders, and just about everywhere. Both sides will be working just as hard to get their positions as well fortified as possible. Rushes will be extremely risky, far more than they are now, because a lost rush results in the enemy team, if not overwhelming your base or hive, taking far more territory than they should have. Tactics will be far more interesting on both sides, forcing more dynamic gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Um NO
2. Yes
3. Wont make much diff
4. ^ ditto ^
5. Dont really understand but I dont want all these circles flying everywhere
6. More like 20AP 10HP > Devs gave them bite so they CQC and they now fly in a straight line but they didn't think to buff them a bit <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
7. This would make people that are already rambos into bigger rambos
8. No
9. Yes
10. How about ocs can shoot more then the crappy | | range with a <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> standing here and shooting them.
11. How about you get res for killing a marine RT
12. Yep
13. Why?
14. No
15. Yes
16. Hell Yes
On our 24 player NS server alien lose is mainly due to nubs who cant do **** and wont listen. Even with an admin on our team spawning all 3 hives 3 times we lost. Then the marines thought it would be funny to weld the hive to death..... and they could because of the **** spawn of a 1 hive kharaa.