Did you read the thread? The point of the thread is to get rid of 3xRush, which is how the alien team is forced to play due to the development team wanting short games. Longer and more expensive research times force the game to take longer.
i agree with you illumi. i dont think roach understands what the thread is about.
also, illumi. one thing you forgot to add 1 thing. if onos get chained, they need a major boost in defense and attack. i agree with almost all your points. however, thats only the tip of the iceberg. we can disect those points so much it would take 5 pages just to say everything.
When balancing a game you always have to think about the competive play. And pushing the average game rounds to 40 or 50 minutes would certainly kill it. You can't expect clans to play up to 2 hours on one map ..
if public play is bumped up to about 40-50 minute then I'm sure organised clan play would still be shorter than that.
Whats wrong with playing up to two hours in a fun and competative game anyway, has clanning really got to the stage where playing a game is boring unless one side is dominant from the get go?
<!--QuoteBegin-gopher+Sep 15 2004, 06:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (gopher @ Sep 15 2004, 06:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When balancing a game you always have to think about the competive play. And pushing the average game rounds to 40 or 50 minutes would certainly kill it. You can't expect clans to play up to 2 hours on one map .. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I gotta say, why not? Arent the competitve players the ones who are dedicated to the game? The ones who scrim XX hours a week regardless?
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Sep 16 2004, 02:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Sep 16 2004, 02:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-gopher+Sep 15 2004, 06:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (gopher @ Sep 15 2004, 06:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When balancing a game you always have to think about the competive play. And pushing the average game rounds to 40 or 50 minutes would certainly kill it. You can't expect clans to play up to 2 hours on one map .. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I gotta say, why not? Arent the competitve players the ones who are dedicated to the game? The ones who scrim XX hours a week regardless? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Some are more dedicated, some are less.
Keep in mind that current active clans might play 2 scrims a day, adding up to approx. the same amount of time. Right now you do have the possibility to work on your mistakes you made, because you are going to play another alien & marine round. If they would be to make the games longer, you could only play one, instead of two. And working on your problems when there is 24h in between matches is a lot harder ..
Plus european clans play usually two maps / scrim, so that wouldn't be possible either. But fortunatly this isn't going to happen <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Maybe clans should just try to finish the game instead of playing stalemates for hours? If this is not possible because no team wants to do the first step and rush the enemy base (and take the risk to lose because they get all killed and the enemy kills their base while they wait for respawn) then introduce a time limit and the team with more points wins the game after 30 minutes.
you want research and build times to be longer because you want to make the games longer. ok.
that would end up with both teams waiting for upgrades etc to finish to be able to do something. youd have so much useless time there, with both sides just skirmishing randomly. i really dont bother with games that drag on unneededly, i play fps games because of the constant action.
then theres this insane list of gameplay changes which i cant be arsed to look into because thats not the point of this thread. the point is, is it wrong that the current gameplay is rush rush rush from place to place, and the average game time is 10-20 minutes.
no its not wrong. its quite fine as of now.
- you want to see the games longer because you want them to be epic? EPIC AS HOW? sitting in ms for half an hour until we finally have that w3? sorry but that got boring in 2.01.
- you are unable to keep in pace with the rest. the game is too fast for you. heres a solution: learn to think faster. become better, you'll find out the game becomes much more enjoyable.
- you play in poor servers against players equally inadequate as you, therefore you are stuck with either idiot marines, idiot comm, idiot gorges or something else. you fail to see past this fact and instead of finding dynamic and interesting, fast-paced gaming experiences with players who understand this game you are stuck on your favorite server and whine about flayra "who only listens to clanners".
i dont know if flayra listens to clanners, but i sure hope he doesnt listen to the average pubbing community. because the average, non-clanning, pubbing community has little idea how the game can be played as its designed to.
it is quite possible to have games that for up to an hour if one or more of these variables are true:
- idiot tfarming comm with good marines. - good comm with idiot marines except 1. - idiot aliens except 1 and idiot marines but good comm. - good comm, marines and aliens, but some poorly chosen siege spots and a strong alien leader/fade.
finally some quotes
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> exactly, if i were flayra, i would ALWAYS put the pubbers first and the clanners second. i hope none of the playtesters are clanners. i really dont.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
heh. actually, i dont know the numbers but quite many 1.1 veterans are pt's now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Whats wrong with playing up to two hours in a fun and competative game anyway, has clanning really got to the stage where playing a game is boring unless one side is dominant from the get go?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no it hasnt but i doubt there are clans who are willing to play 2 hour rounds which consist mostly of skirmishes and waiting for something to finish.
oh yeah edit:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->introduce a time limit and the team with more points wins the game after 30 minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you want research and build times to be longer because you want to make the games longer. ok.
that would end up with both teams waiting for upgrades etc to finish to be able to do something. youd have so much useless time there, with both sides just skirmishing randomly. i really dont bother with games that drag on unneededly, i play fps games because of the constant action.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just as I said: Don't wait for something. Do something. You don't need weapon 3 and amor 3 to finish the game. Clans always adapt to changes in game play. They always did and they will always do but they are the loudest to cry when something changes.
Anyways I think most people who want longer games play on large servers!? It's a well known fact that large server balance is broken and the devs are aware of that issue. This will most likely not affect clanners in any way. Peace and love forever? <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- you want to see the games longer because you want them to be epic? EPIC AS HOW? sitting in ms for half an hour until we finally have that w3? sorry but that got boring in 2.01.
- you are unable to keep in pace with the rest. the game is too fast for you. heres a solution: learn to think faster. become better, you'll find out the game becomes much more enjoyable.
- you play in poor servers against players equally inadequate as you, therefore you are stuck with either idiot marines, idiot comm, idiot gorges or something else. you fail to see past this fact and instead of finding dynamic and interesting, fast-paced gaming experiences with players who understand this game you are stuck on your favorite server and whine about flayra "who only listens to clanners". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks, I play better than most people on servers I play on, especially if I'm there from the get-go. I also go from server to server, and have had great teams where both sides had great players as well as stacked teams and/or both sides suck. Nice try, but you lose. GG, NEX wins.
Back to the subject matter at hand.
The goal is to make the game more about controlling and holding onto territory while upgrading, instead of both sides tech rushing FTW. If I wanted to rush, <b><i> I WOULD PLAY COMBAT!!!!</b></i> It is possible to have fun when a skulk can kill you in the first few minutes, instead of marines ramboing around slaughtering skulks left and right. Not everyone plays in the clan or pug worlds, which are tiny minorities in comparison to the amount of pub players.
By balancing the resource systems, slowing down research times, balancing comparitive classes with comparitive upgrades, games will be more fun than they are at this point by an exponentially large value. Also, pub servers will tend to be more balanced then they are now, because noobs will understand all basic gameplay elements of that particular side in the first game he plays. The average player quality will go up, resulting in games getting better and better.
We, the pub players, recognise that classic needs a boost in fun factor, and we've identified the problem as being caused by Flayra's desire for far shorter games. I believe that by altering the elements that cause 3xRush, games will become far more dynamic, with DMS + 5 minute fade becoming a thing of the past.
It's an arguing tactic. By making longer games equal to stalemates and boredom, they're looking to convince people that shorter games are more fun and exciting. Just learn the correct way to make the person using it look like an absolute idiot in your rebuttle without making you look like a complete jerk. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
also, illumi. one thing you forgot to add 1 thing. if onos get chained, they need a major boost in defense and attack. i agree with almost all your points. however, thats only the tip of the iceberg. we can disect those points so much it would take 5 pages just to say everything.
Whats wrong with playing up to two hours in a fun and competative game anyway, has clanning really got to the stage where playing a game is boring unless one side is dominant from the get go?
I gotta say, why not? Arent the competitve players the ones who are dedicated to the game? The ones who scrim XX hours a week regardless?
I gotta say, why not? Arent the competitve players the ones who are dedicated to the game? The ones who scrim XX hours a week regardless? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some are more dedicated, some are less.
Keep in mind that current active clans might play 2 scrims a day, adding up to approx. the same amount of time. Right now you do have the possibility to work on your mistakes you made, because you are going to play another alien & marine round. If they would be to make the games longer, you could only play one, instead of two. And working on your problems when there is 24h in between matches is a lot harder ..
Plus european clans play usually two maps / scrim, so that wouldn't be possible either. But fortunatly this isn't going to happen <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
that would end up with both teams waiting for upgrades etc to finish to be able to do something. youd have so much useless time there, with both sides just skirmishing randomly. i really dont bother with games that drag on unneededly, i play fps games because of the constant action.
then theres this insane list of gameplay changes which i cant be arsed to look into because thats not the point of this thread. the point is, is it wrong that the current gameplay is rush rush rush from place to place, and the average game time is 10-20 minutes.
no its not wrong. its quite fine as of now.
- you want to see the games longer because you want them to be epic? EPIC AS HOW? sitting in ms for half an hour until we finally have that w3? sorry but that got boring in 2.01.
- you are unable to keep in pace with the rest. the game is too fast for you. heres a solution: learn to think faster. become better, you'll find out the game becomes much more enjoyable.
- you play in poor servers against players equally inadequate as you, therefore you are stuck with either idiot marines, idiot comm, idiot gorges or something else. you fail to see past this fact and instead of finding dynamic and interesting, fast-paced gaming experiences with players who understand this game you are stuck on your favorite server and whine about flayra "who only listens to clanners".
i dont know if flayra listens to clanners, but i sure hope he doesnt listen to the average pubbing community. because the average, non-clanning, pubbing community has little idea how the game can be played as its designed to.
it is quite possible to have games that for up to an hour if one or more of these variables are true:
- idiot tfarming comm with good marines.
- good comm with idiot marines except 1.
- idiot aliens except 1 and idiot marines but good comm.
- good comm, marines and aliens, but some poorly chosen siege spots and a strong alien leader/fade.
finally some quotes
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> exactly, if i were flayra, i would ALWAYS put the pubbers first and the clanners second. i hope none of the playtesters are clanners. i really dont.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
heh. actually, i dont know the numbers but quite many 1.1 veterans are pt's now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Whats wrong with playing up to two hours in a fun and competative game anyway, has clanning really got to the stage where playing a game is boring unless one side is dominant from the get go?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no it hasnt but i doubt there are clans who are willing to play 2 hour rounds which consist mostly of skirmishes and waiting for something to finish.
oh yeah edit:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->introduce a time limit and the team with more points wins the game after 30 minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nah =]
that would end up with both teams waiting for upgrades etc to finish to be able to do something. youd have so much useless time there, with both sides just skirmishing randomly. i really dont bother with games that drag on unneededly, i play fps games because of the constant action.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just as I said: Don't wait for something. Do something. You don't need weapon 3 and amor 3 to finish the game. Clans always adapt to changes in game play. They always did and they will always do but they are the loudest to cry when something changes.
Anyways I think most people who want longer games play on large servers!?
It's a well known fact that large server balance is broken and the devs are aware of that issue. This will most likely not affect clanners in any way. Peace and love forever? <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- you are unable to keep in pace with the rest. the game is too fast for you. heres a solution: learn to think faster. become better, you'll find out the game becomes much more enjoyable.
- you play in poor servers against players equally inadequate as you, therefore you are stuck with either idiot marines, idiot comm, idiot gorges or something else. you fail to see past this fact and instead of finding dynamic and interesting, fast-paced gaming experiences with players who understand this game you are stuck on your favorite server and whine about flayra "who only listens to clanners". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks, I play better than most people on servers I play on, especially if I'm there from the get-go. I also go from server to server, and have had great teams where both sides had great players as well as stacked teams and/or both sides suck. Nice try, but you lose. GG, NEX wins.
Back to the subject matter at hand.
The goal is to make the game more about controlling and holding onto territory while upgrading, instead of both sides tech rushing FTW. If I wanted to rush, <b><i> I WOULD PLAY COMBAT!!!!</b></i> It is possible to have fun when a skulk can kill you in the first few minutes, instead of marines ramboing around slaughtering skulks left and right. Not everyone plays in the clan or pug worlds, which are tiny minorities in comparison to the amount of pub players.
By balancing the resource systems, slowing down research times, balancing comparitive classes with comparitive upgrades, games will be more fun than they are at this point by an exponentially large value. Also, pub servers will tend to be more balanced then they are now, because noobs will understand all basic gameplay elements of that particular side in the first game he plays. The average player quality will go up, resulting in games getting better and better.
We, the pub players, recognise that classic needs a boost in fun factor, and we've identified the problem as being caused by Flayra's desire for far shorter games. I believe that by altering the elements that cause 3xRush, games will become far more dynamic, with DMS + 5 minute fade becoming a thing of the past.