<!--QuoteBegin-MrMojo+Aug 30 2004, 07:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ Aug 30 2004, 07:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wonder who would be a great PT who knows what he's talking about? Gee, could it be forlorn? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ya, he would make a great PT. too bad he was rejected for the program after the community protested his enlistment in the program.
<!--QuoteBegin-camO.o+Aug 30 2004, 12:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (camO.o @ Aug 30 2004, 12:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-MrMojo+Aug 30 2004, 07:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ Aug 30 2004, 07:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wonder who would be a great PT who knows what he's talking about? Gee, could it be forlorn? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ya, he would make a great PT. too bad he was rejected for the program after the community protested his enlistment in the program. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ooo, now you are gonna make him mad!
2 alien boosts, always nice. Gore will be evil on FF servers now, haha, you'll really have to watch those skulks otherwise they'll go splat.
The doors won't be missed on eclipse, interesting how the steps are now a ramp - I rather liked the old layout because it meant aliens couldn't just mow through.
I'll miss the pipes, they were good hiding/camping spots. Vent fixes are always welcome, it saves on having to wait for Leap.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
A bit of my logic to this post.
I chose alien items because 'some people' did nothing but complain about the fact that marine's had so many buffs. So I thought i'd include a couple of buffs for the aliens.
I also realized I had given nothing to server operators yet, so I included a couple of items for them.
Plus I thought I'd show off some updated map sexiness.
<!--QuoteBegin-camO.o+Aug 30 2004, 07:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (camO.o @ Aug 30 2004, 07:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-MrMojo+Aug 30 2004, 07:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ Aug 30 2004, 07:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wonder who would be a great PT who knows what he's talking about? Gee, could it be forlorn? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ya, he would make a great PT. too bad he was rejected for the program after the community protested his enlistment in the program. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That would be a nice story, if it was true.
The truth is "The community" consists of a few individuals who have real say on who gets into the program, the lead picker with 90% of the decision being Nem0.
If PT's were made through other means we'd see more (qualified) playtesters in the field. Currently they are picked on arbitrary values such as "niceness" or "coolness". I could easily come up with a huge list of people who should be playtesters but aren't. Don't get me wrong, there are some very qualified playtesters but there could be (a lot) more. Just because when it comes to NS I generally know everythere there is to know about this game, there are many other individuals who do too.
Flayra at the CPL asked why I wasn't a PT, and I told him it was because Nem0 doesn't like me. He then said "That's too bad man, you could have been helping me all this time." Big deal. Being a PT for me isn't that important, what's important is that smart changes are put in. Immature people like mojo who think people live for personal vendettas of course couldn't understand this, so his comment is to be expected.
Anyhow I've played a phsyical PT build with regen overflowing and yes it's incredibly unbalanced, the only way to fix it would be to alter the regen rates that we have been accustomed to since 2.0. I thought that regen overflow was incredibly unbalanced as did other good playtesters. Of course there was a very vocal section of PT's that thought it was cool sauce to have overflowing regen where a onos can live under a hive with sustained HMG fire by 3 guys and not die, in fact he never even lost all of his armor. Real fun and balanced. They also put an umbra onos with 6-7 SG's firing at the onos who was under umbra at a hive, and he didn't go under 400 armor. and remained at full HP. The fade, lerk, and gorge had similar qualities as well. Some of the PT's pointed out this was clearly unfair, yet the more vocal of PT's simply said it was about time regen worked this way and they could adjust the regen values, so it regened maybe 5% instead of the current 9%.
I told Flay these results and said he wouldn't put in this change because he didn't want to spend another 2.00 ---> 2.01 time period fixing balance issues.
But it looks like either Flay's been convinced otherwise or completely forgot. I'm guessing the former.
Good playtesters should simply help reach the goal as quickly as possible, not make the game "the way they've always wanted it to be".
Next a lightgamma of 1.0 is fine. 0 washes things out, it's so bright that on some monotors things turn to a pale blue, but otherwise 1.0 helps out those with crappy monotors. Although I do believe Flay's stance is that he doesn't care if people have crappy monotors, so I can understand why 2.0 is locked and not 1.0. He doesn't like it for the darkness to be ruined at all, so.
Alcapwn"War is the science of destruction" - John AbbotJoin Date: 2003-06-21Member: 17590Members
<!--QuoteBegin-AveSatanas+Aug 30 2004, 03:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AveSatanas @ Aug 30 2004, 03:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You can have the Bus or you can have the mysterious box. A bus is a bus but a mysterious box can be anything, it can even be a bus. You know how much we wanted one of those <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> classic family guy <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 30 2004, 11:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 30 2004, 11:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow some of these PT"s have no idea how to balance a game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Our job is to test the game, not balance it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Aug 30 2004, 04:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Aug 30 2004, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Whose job is it to balance it, then? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Last I checked the PT's simply test what the devs give them and give feedback. It's up to the devs to balance/choose what to do.
i can see how regen overflow could be unbalancing. fade hitting PG with 4 turrets eating at his hp/armor, he would lose very little of his armor, due to the regen overflowing and rehealing both hp and armor, as opposed to now, hp regens, turrets eat at armor, 3 rines with shotties phase in, bang bang *BOOM*
"fade down"
regen overflow will either A. overpower aliens to the point of all fun is gone....
OR....
B. force tactics to change and the use of turrets and the use of static defences to drop....
but...on the other hand, turrets now respond to weapons upgrades. hmmmmmm....quite interesting. perhaps a more indepth analysis from someone who knows a bit more about tactic's than i?
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 30 2004, 11:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 30 2004, 11:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not only that, but overflowing regen is way unbalancing. It shouldn't be put it in and it makes gorges, lerks, fades, and onos (esp. fade + onos) godlike at hives.
It should only work for person regen not hive regen.
Wow some of these PT"s have no idea how to balance a game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes forlorn you're aboslutely right. They're harder to kill in their hive aka their homebase on their home turf. THAT'S AN INSANE IDEA WHAT WERE THESE PT'S THINKING MY HEAVENS
obuhNot Quite Smart at NSJoin Date: 2003-03-31Member: 15072Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Chem+Aug 30 2004, 11:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Chem @ Aug 30 2004, 11:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 30 2004, 11:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 30 2004, 11:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not only that, but overflowing regen is way unbalancing. It shouldn't be put it in and it makes gorges, lerks, fades, and onos (esp. fade + onos) godlike at hives.
It should only work for person regen not hive regen.
Wow some of these PT"s have no idea how to balance a game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes forlorn you're aboslutely right. They're harder to kill in their hive aka their homebase on their home turf. THAT'S AN INSANE IDEA WHAT WERE THESE PT'S THINKING MY HEAVENS <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Are aliens supposed to be unkillable when they're at the hive ?
<!--QuoteBegin-Chem+Aug 30 2004, 11:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Chem @ Aug 30 2004, 11:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 30 2004, 11:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 30 2004, 11:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not only that, but overflowing regen is way unbalancing. It shouldn't be put it in and it makes gorges, lerks, fades, and onos (esp. fade + onos) godlike at hives.
It should only work for person regen not hive regen.
Wow some of these PT"s have no idea how to balance a game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes forlorn you're aboslutely right. They're harder to kill in their hive aka their homebase on their home turf. THAT'S AN INSANE IDEA WHAT WERE THESE PT'S THINKING MY HEAVENS <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is exactly what I'm talking about as far as there being PT's who have no idea what good balance is. Having an advantage on home turf does not ential being invincible, contrary to what you think:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They're harder to kill in their hive aka their homebase on their home turf. THAT'S AN INSANE IDEA WHAT WERE THESE PT'S THINKING MY HEAVENS<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Currently fades get 45 hp a tick at a hive, an onos gets close to 90. That means that in the initial <i>second</i> of shooting him, you better deal more than 90 to an onos or else it is all wasted by the hive heal.
Which sounds easy, but remember this is how the armor system works:
30% goes to health, 70% to your armor. This is only at the HIVE 1 LEVEL. At HIVE 2 LEVEL, it is worse with only 20% going to hp and 80% to armor.
Quick math indicates that since regen overflow heals health than armor, you need to deal more than the creature's regen rate in one second in order to dent the creature's hp.
At the hive 1 level...
Fade gets 45 hp from the hive's regen rate. Since armor absorbs 70%, this means your weapons deal only 30% of what it shows. LMG now deals 3-4 per shot to the fade when being healed by the hive. HMG deals a whopping 7 per shot!
So... this means to deal 45 you have to hit with roughly 13 shots in a second with the LMG to a fade, or about 7 with the HMG to a fade. In a second.
For the LMG you may as well as give up you will not kill the fade if he's at full HP because once the armor gets started, armor absorbs 2 points of damage at hive 1, 2.5 at hive 2, and 3 at hive 3.
In other words, this hive regen system is rediculous. It may sound like "OMG like only 8 shots to make it so the regen won't overflow?" on paper... but in game versus a fade who is blinking around the hive is literally invincible. If you don't keep the damage up every second then he will be at full HP in no time, on top of this all the of the ammo you attempt to kill the fade is wasted as soon as you miss for one second, and you may have as well as fired at the wall, because the wall will die sooner than the fade in a hive room.
This is so bad for the onos I don't even need to describe it to you to understand, the lerk is also similiarly tough as he can just fly on top of the hive and be regened in a split second plus you need perfect aim to kill the lerk with hive regen, and finally the gorge will take twice as much abuse generally.
The only creature who doesn't benifit from the hive regen is the skulk.
And I do believe the general concensus is that the skulk is the only alien that may be too weak - so the hive regen does not help in the early game, and is crushing in the mid to late game.
Really, the hive overflow regen is so overpowering and it's so obvious, yet it still remains in the game dispite "our diligent playtesters".
Which of course, I guess some try to play ignorant or helpless...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Our job is to test the game, not balance it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Testing a game includes finding game breaking features of the game. Overflowing hive regen is hopelessly broken and overpowering, and yet it has remained for how long now in the PT build...?
Maybe your idea of balancing includes leaving the game alone if you like it....
One final note about why overflowing hive regen is bad in theory:
In order for the aliens to benifit from a hive regen, they need to not be in combat. This makes sense from both a story viewpoint as well as a gameplay one. This way it's not unbalanced too much against marines who wish to engage the aliens on their turf, where the game forces you to fight most of the time as gameplay completely revolves around the hives.
Good playtesting involves testing the gameplay, and having a good knowledge of the said gameplay.
The fact that hive regen has stayed for so long clearly suggests otherwise.
EDIT:
And before anyone goes
"OMG Forlonr you just complaine liek a noob! You haev no idae of how teh game is teh played. See this is why informations shouldn'tt be made avilable to teh public!!1"
Just realize I've played this playtest which is exactly why I know precisely of what I'm talking about. I'm not theorizing, I'm telling. So by not making information avalible to the public in the future does nothing to prevent embarrassments like this.
Sorry for being harsh but some things make me want to tell the truth.
<!--QuoteBegin-exoity+Aug 30 2004, 11:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (exoity @ Aug 30 2004, 11:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Forlorn do you do anything besides play ns? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure, and it doesn't involve trolling communites like a pathetic person who has nothing to do. I just got back from class and now I'm going out to eat with some friends! Have fun in your exorbant and succesful social life exoity!
I didn't read it all but here's food for thought forlorn. Maybe the aliens are supposed to have an advantage when they have their hive healing them along with gorges and regen. PERHAPS THIS IS INTENDED? You know you could siege, use hmg's instead of shotguns or just jp around the hive and kill it. Maybe you should adapt instead of having a temper tantrum because you can't be a PT and slandering their ability to playtest "Possible" (note this word forlorn) Changes as in NOT FINAL Anyway this is my last post on this thread as I've said my spiel
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
I wish everyone would just relax until they see all the changes made for B5...
Also remember B5 is not intended to bring a tonne more balance but rather fix a bunch of bugs that have been visible and invisible for a long time.
So speaking about how unfair/unbalanced something is before seeing how it all comes together, especially from information gathered at an old PT seems incomplete and a poor way of doing things.
Let's all sit and wait for B5 then once the entire patch is released, then play it for a week or two and make a few conclusions on things that need to be addressed in B6, 3.0 Final or 3.1 depending on what else gets put into B5.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 30 2004, 11:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 30 2004, 11:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-exoity+Aug 30 2004, 11:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (exoity @ Aug 30 2004, 11:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Forlorn do you do anything besides play ns? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure, and it doesn't involve trolling communites like a pathetic person who has nothing to do. I just got back from class and now I'm going out to eat with some friends! Have fun in your exorbant and succesful social life exoity! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How do I troll the community?
I really dont see this being a huge problem. If a fade is blinking around nonstop - shoot the hive, who cares about the fade? Very few fades have enough skill to hit me when in on my jetpack (which is almost always when I go in a hive) so its just more ammo spent on the hive - more xp for me. When I play combat, I usually upgrade to GL/JP. 2 or 3 Marines JPing around the hive hitting it gernades can kill that thing damn quick.
Infact, most of the time when I'm in their hive, my focus is on killing the hive. If my teammates are doing that for me, then I spawn camp in order to make sure they don't die.
I really dont think this will destroy the game like you are predicting, I'd just wait untill I see it ingame before I got my panties in a bunch while eating lunch with some schoolmates.
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 30 2004, 04:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 30 2004, 04:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Testing a game includes finding game breaking features of the game. Overflowing hive regen is hopelessly broken and overpowering, and yet it has remained for how long now in the PT build...?
Maybe your idea of balancing includes leaving the game alone if you like it....
[...]
Good playtesting involves testing the gameplay, and having a good knowledge of the said gameplay. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What you're talking about there is exactly what I mean; <i>testing the gameplay</i>. That's different from actually balancing it, which is a job for the Developers. We can test those balance changes, and make <i>suggestions</i>, but making the changes isn't up to us.
Besides, going off on one about a feature that's being tested in a private build seems a bit excessive to me.
<!--QuoteBegin-exoity+Aug 30 2004, 12:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (exoity @ Aug 30 2004, 12:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 30 2004, 11:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 30 2004, 11:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-exoity+Aug 30 2004, 11:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (exoity @ Aug 30 2004, 11:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Forlorn do you do anything besides play ns? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure, and it doesn't involve trolling communites like a pathetic person who has nothing to do. I just got back from class and now I'm going out to eat with some friends! Have fun in your exorbant and succesful social life exoity! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How do I troll the community? And you are like waiting for replies on this thread, great social life you have!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As opposed to you, who are doing exactly the same thing? Nice example you're setting there buddy. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Exoity, your attempted zing about Forlorn's lack of a social life has no grounds on an internet forum about a computer game of which you are an <u>official playtester</u> of.
Forlorn, trying to defend yourself with "evidence" of your social life just makes you look like an idiot, whether you have friends or not.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrMojo+Aug 30 2004, 04:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ Aug 30 2004, 04:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Thansal+Aug 30 2004, 06:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thansal @ Aug 30 2004, 06:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ok, so it is high values that are the exploit, that is what I figgured.
hehe, was about to post wondering what the over flow had to do with the vie's health regen... hehe, I get it now, you say that only the upgrade should over flow not health gain from the hive (and I assume DCs then also) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, not really. High values are anything but an exploit. I believe 2.5 is default (maybe not), and anything above that makes the maps look a lot darker, and values over 4.0 it's hard to see what's going on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ahhhhh reminds me of the days when we played hide and go seek with lightgamma 10 on bast <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
and forlorn...siege + hmg > hive heal if you stay back...rushing in a hive with an onos or even a fade in it is stupid enough as it is unless you have ha and/or good hmgers. (someone already beat me to this point but whatever <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
Well there goes NS Combat, the marines will have an even harder time in trying to kill that hive.
As for classical Combat, I guess all these changes will make an onos defend a 1 hive viable. Woot! Look out for all the res whoring that's going to happen. It's also probably going to make sieging that much harder on pub games. As usually, there are only a few marines doing what they are told and the aliens can now regen so much faster. Increase the range of the siege then to compensate.
<!--QuoteBegin-Exer+Aug 30 2004, 07:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Exer @ Aug 30 2004, 07:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [...] and the aliens can now regen so much faster. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? ¬¬
Comments
ya, he would make a great PT. too bad he was rejected for the program after the community protested his enlistment in the program.
ya, he would make a great PT. too bad he was rejected for the program after the community protested his enlistment in the program. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ooo, now you are gonna make him mad!
The doors won't be missed on eclipse, interesting how the steps are now a ramp - I rather liked the old layout because it meant aliens couldn't just mow through.
I'll miss the pipes, they were good hiding/camping spots. Vent fixes are always welcome, it saves on having to wait for Leap.
And can we try and not make this thread a flame fest? I'm sure you guys can use IRC for that.
I chose alien items because 'some people' did nothing but complain about the fact that marine's had so many buffs. So I thought i'd include a couple of buffs for the aliens.
I also realized I had given nothing to server operators yet, so I included a couple of items for them.
Plus I thought I'd show off some updated map sexiness.
PM me with any questions.
ya, he would make a great PT. too bad he was rejected for the program after the community protested his enlistment in the program. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be a nice story, if it was true.
The truth is "The community" consists of a few individuals who have real say on who gets into the program, the lead picker with 90% of the decision being Nem0.
If PT's were made through other means we'd see more (qualified) playtesters in the field. Currently they are picked on arbitrary values such as "niceness" or "coolness". I could easily come up with a huge list of people who should be playtesters but aren't. Don't get me wrong, there are some very qualified playtesters but there could be (a lot) more. Just because when it comes to NS I generally know everythere there is to know about this game, there are many other individuals who do too.
Flayra at the CPL asked why I wasn't a PT, and I told him it was because Nem0 doesn't like me. He then said "That's too bad man, you could have been helping me all this time." Big deal. Being a PT for me isn't that important, what's important is that smart changes are put in. Immature people like mojo who think people live for personal vendettas of course couldn't understand this, so his comment is to be expected.
Anyhow I've played a phsyical PT build with regen overflowing and yes it's incredibly unbalanced, the only way to fix it would be to alter the regen rates that we have been accustomed to since 2.0. I thought that regen overflow was incredibly unbalanced as did other good playtesters. Of course there was a very vocal section of PT's that thought it was cool sauce to have overflowing regen where a onos can live under a hive with sustained HMG fire by 3 guys and not die, in fact he never even lost all of his armor. Real fun and balanced. They also put an umbra onos with 6-7 SG's firing at the onos who was under umbra at a hive, and he didn't go under 400 armor. and remained at full HP.
The fade, lerk, and gorge had similar qualities as well.
Some of the PT's pointed out this was clearly unfair, yet the more vocal of PT's simply said it was about time regen worked this way and they could adjust the regen values, so it regened maybe 5% instead of the current 9%.
I told Flay these results and said he wouldn't put in this change because he didn't want to spend another 2.00 ---> 2.01 time period fixing balance issues.
But it looks like either Flay's been convinced otherwise or completely forgot. I'm guessing the former.
Good playtesters should simply help reach the goal as quickly as possible, not make the game "the way they've always wanted it to be".
Next a lightgamma of 1.0 is fine. 0 washes things out, it's so bright that on some monotors things turn to a pale blue, but otherwise 1.0 helps out those with crappy monotors. Although I do believe Flay's stance is that he doesn't care if people have crappy monotors, so I can understand why 2.0 is locked and not 1.0. He doesn't like it for the darkness to be ruined at all, so.
classic family guy <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Our job is to test the game, not balance it.
Last I checked the PT's simply test what the devs give them and give feedback. It's up to the devs to balance/choose what to do.
fade hitting PG with 4 turrets eating at his hp/armor, he would lose very little of his armor, due to the regen overflowing and rehealing both hp and armor, as opposed to now, hp regens, turrets eat at armor, 3 rines with shotties phase in, bang bang *BOOM*
"fade down"
regen overflow will either A. overpower aliens to the point of all fun is gone....
OR....
B. force tactics to change and the use of turrets and the use of static defences to drop....
but...on the other hand, turrets now respond to weapons upgrades. hmmmmmm....quite interesting. perhaps a more indepth analysis from someone who knows a bit more about tactic's than i?
beta 5 sure looks to be a good one.
Not only that, but overflowing regen is way unbalancing. It shouldn't be put it in and it makes gorges, lerks, fades, and onos (esp. fade + onos) godlike at hives.
It should only work for person regen not hive regen.
Wow some of these PT"s have no idea how to balance a game.
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Yes forlorn you're aboslutely right. They're harder to kill in their hive aka their homebase on their home turf. THAT'S AN INSANE IDEA
WHAT WERE THESE PT'S THINKING MY HEAVENS
Not only that, but overflowing regen is way unbalancing. It shouldn't be put it in and it makes gorges, lerks, fades, and onos (esp. fade + onos) godlike at hives.
It should only work for person regen not hive regen.
Wow some of these PT"s have no idea how to balance a game.
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Yes forlorn you're aboslutely right. They're harder to kill in their hive aka their homebase on their home turf. THAT'S AN INSANE IDEA
WHAT WERE THESE PT'S THINKING MY HEAVENS <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are aliens supposed to be unkillable when they're at the hive ?
Not only that, but overflowing regen is way unbalancing. It shouldn't be put it in and it makes gorges, lerks, fades, and onos (esp. fade + onos) godlike at hives.
It should only work for person regen not hive regen.
Wow some of these PT"s have no idea how to balance a game.
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Yes forlorn you're aboslutely right. They're harder to kill in their hive aka their homebase on their home turf. THAT'S AN INSANE IDEA
WHAT WERE THESE PT'S THINKING MY HEAVENS <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly what I'm talking about as far as there being PT's who have no idea what good balance is. Having an advantage on home turf does not ential being invincible, contrary to what you think:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They're harder to kill in their hive aka their homebase on their home turf. THAT'S AN INSANE IDEA
WHAT WERE THESE PT'S THINKING MY HEAVENS<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Currently fades get 45 hp a tick at a hive, an onos gets close to 90. That means that in the initial <i>second</i> of shooting him, you better deal more than 90 to an onos or else it is all wasted by the hive heal.
Which sounds easy, but remember this is how the armor system works:
30% goes to health, 70% to your armor. This is only at the HIVE 1 LEVEL. At HIVE 2 LEVEL, it is worse with only 20% going to hp and 80% to armor.
Quick math indicates that since regen overflow heals health than armor, you need to deal more than the creature's regen rate in one second in order to dent the creature's hp.
At the hive 1 level...
Fade gets 45 hp from the hive's regen rate. Since armor absorbs 70%, this means your weapons deal only 30% of what it shows. LMG now deals 3-4 per shot to the fade when being healed by the hive. HMG deals a whopping 7 per shot!
So... this means to deal 45 you have to hit with roughly 13 shots in a second with the LMG to a fade, or about 7 with the HMG to a fade. In a second.
For the LMG you may as well as give up you will not kill the fade if he's at full HP because once the armor gets started, armor absorbs 2 points of damage at hive 1, 2.5 at hive 2, and 3 at hive 3.
In other words, this hive regen system is rediculous. It may sound like "OMG like only 8 shots to make it so the regen won't overflow?" on paper... but in game versus a fade who is blinking around the hive is literally invincible. If you don't keep the damage up every second then he will be at full HP in no time, on top of this all the of the ammo you attempt to kill the fade is wasted as soon as you miss for one second, and you may have as well as fired at the wall, because the wall will die sooner than the fade in a hive room.
This is so bad for the onos I don't even need to describe it to you to understand, the lerk is also similiarly tough as he can just fly on top of the hive and be regened in a split second plus you need perfect aim to kill the lerk with hive regen, and finally the gorge will take twice as much abuse generally.
The only creature who doesn't benifit from the hive regen is the skulk.
And I do believe the general concensus is that the skulk is the only alien that may be too weak - so the hive regen does not help in the early game, and is crushing in the mid to late game.
Really, the hive overflow regen is so overpowering and it's so obvious, yet it still remains in the game dispite "our diligent playtesters".
Which of course, I guess some try to play ignorant or helpless...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Our job is to test the game, not balance it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Testing a game includes finding game breaking features of the game. Overflowing hive regen is hopelessly broken and overpowering, and yet it has remained for how long now in the PT build...?
Maybe your idea of balancing includes leaving the game alone if you like it....
One final note about why overflowing hive regen is bad in theory:
In order for the aliens to benifit from a hive regen, they need to not be in combat. This makes sense from both a story viewpoint as well as a gameplay one. This way it's not unbalanced too much against marines who wish to engage the aliens on their turf, where the game forces you to fight most of the time as gameplay completely revolves around the hives.
Good playtesting involves testing the gameplay, and having a good knowledge of the said gameplay.
The fact that hive regen has stayed for so long clearly suggests otherwise.
EDIT:
And before anyone goes
"OMG Forlonr you just complaine liek a noob! You haev no idae of how teh game is teh played. See this is why informations shouldn'tt be made avilable to teh public!!1"
Just realize I've played this playtest which is exactly why I know precisely of what I'm talking about. I'm not theorizing, I'm telling. So by not making information avalible to the public in the future does nothing to prevent embarrassments like this.
Sorry for being harsh but some things make me want to tell the truth.
Sure, and it doesn't involve trolling communites like a pathetic person who has nothing to do. I just got back from class and now I'm going out to eat with some friends! Have fun in your exorbant and succesful social life exoity!
Maybe the aliens are supposed to have an advantage when they have their hive healing them along with gorges and regen.
PERHAPS THIS IS INTENDED?
You know you could siege, use hmg's instead of shotguns or just jp around the hive and kill it.
Maybe you should adapt instead of having a temper tantrum because you can't be a PT and slandering their ability to playtest "Possible" (note this word forlorn) Changes as in NOT FINAL
Anyway this is my last post on this thread as I've said my spiel
Also remember B5 is not intended to bring a tonne more balance but rather fix a bunch of bugs that have been visible and invisible for a long time.
So speaking about how unfair/unbalanced something is before seeing how it all comes together, especially from information gathered at an old PT seems incomplete and a poor way of doing things.
Let's all sit and wait for B5 then once the entire patch is released, then play it for a week or two and make a few conclusions on things that need to be addressed in B6, 3.0 Final or 3.1 depending on what else gets put into B5.
For crying out loud it's still a beta..
Sure, and it doesn't involve trolling communites like a pathetic person who has nothing to do. I just got back from class and now I'm going out to eat with some friends! Have fun in your exorbant and succesful social life exoity! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do I troll the community?
Infact, most of the time when I'm in their hive, my focus is on killing the hive. If my teammates are doing that for me, then I spawn camp in order to make sure they don't die.
I really dont think this will destroy the game like you are predicting, I'd just wait untill I see it ingame before I got my panties in a bunch while eating lunch with some schoolmates.
Maybe your idea of balancing includes leaving the game alone if you like it....
[...]
Good playtesting involves testing the gameplay, and having a good knowledge of the said gameplay. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you're talking about there is exactly what I mean; <i>testing the gameplay</i>. That's different from actually balancing it, which is a job for the Developers. We can test those balance changes, and make <i>suggestions</i>, but making the changes isn't up to us.
Besides, going off on one about a feature that's being tested in a private build seems a bit excessive to me.
Sure, and it doesn't involve trolling communites like a pathetic person who has nothing to do. I just got back from class and now I'm going out to eat with some friends! Have fun in your exorbant and succesful social life exoity! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do I troll the community? And you are like waiting for replies on this thread, great social life you have!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As opposed to you, who are doing exactly the same thing? Nice example you're setting there buddy. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Exoity, your attempted zing about Forlorn's lack of a social life has no grounds on an internet forum about a computer game of which you are an <u>official playtester</u> of.
Forlorn, trying to defend yourself with "evidence" of your social life just makes you look like an idiot, whether you have friends or not.
hehe, was about to post wondering what the over flow had to do with the vie's health regen... hehe, I get it now, you say that only the upgrade should over flow not health gain from the hive (and I assume DCs then also) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, not really. High values are anything but an exploit. I believe 2.5 is default (maybe not), and anything above that makes the maps look a lot darker, and values over 4.0 it's hard to see what's going on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ahhhhh reminds me of the days when we played hide and go seek with lightgamma 10 on bast <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
and forlorn...siege + hmg > hive heal if you stay back...rushing in a hive with an onos or even a fade in it is stupid enough as it is unless you have ha and/or good hmgers. (someone already beat me to this point but whatever <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
As for classical Combat, I guess all these changes will make an onos defend a 1 hive viable. Woot! Look out for all the res whoring that's going to happen. It's also probably going to make sieging that much harder on pub games. As usually, there are only a few marines doing what they are told and the aliens can now regen so much faster. Increase the range of the siege then to compensate.
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Seems like most people already know how the game will be, without even playtesting the changes.
Btw, thx Zunni
Ehm why all the whining if it would be balanced??
Just wait until YOU can play it okay? It's being playtested ffs...
Really? ¬¬