ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Nemesis, imagine, that if people are debating this much over just a single item, then how much will people debate when the entire changelog is revleaed lol!
<!--QuoteBegin-Hobojoe+Aug 25 2004, 08:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hobojoe @ Aug 25 2004, 08:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+Aug 25 2004, 08:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Aug 25 2004, 08:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nemesis, imagine, that if people are debating this much over just a single item, then how much will people debate when the entire changelog is revleaed lol! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> why do you think they shut down the forums eh? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually it's because the traffic load on the website to find the patch, and the traffic the forum get melts their server. I think Monse explained this, that on patch day forums get swamped, the whole shebang crashes, and no one can get the patch, then they bring it back up, people flood the forums complaining that the patch is down, etc.
As for the turret upgrade, I could've sworn in 2.0 or something they stated over and over that upgrades would NO LONGER buff turrets... now it's a bug?
<!--QuoteBegin-Maian+Aug 25 2004, 07:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maian @ Aug 25 2004, 07:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Don't forget that regen will now heal both health and armor in a single tick. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> thats only if the health is near max.
Eg: Fade Health = 290 + regen of 27 hp This translates as 300 hp and 17 armour.
Yes this *might* help a little bit wit hstatic defense etc, but it isnt going to help with smaller life forms or in fire fights with advanced weapons. As for knockback, maybe it can be called a buff but really it is a bug that has had a long time coming to be fixed.
Yes It is a fix; that highly effects the balance... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EEK: You do realise that in beta2 or whichever version it was they made acid rockets fire at twice the rate of fire but do half damage they changed it back to what it was originally like before that the next patch?
On the subject of ammo from guns:
Why are you complaining? It's not like they're releasing V3.0 and in the changelog only have "We put dropping ammo in. Also, we don't care about aliens. LOL!" This was just one of the things Zunni decided to tell the community about in the recent news post. Instead of whining about how Flayra is Satan and only cares what the EVIL CLANNERS!!!!!!!!!! think and how he wants to ruin the game for your little community built on mutual masturbation who OBVIOUSLY know how to play and balance the game, because, you know, you've played NS since v1.0 on public servers where you have thoroughly tested all versions with your BRILLIANT public skills, why don't you shut the **** up and wait to see what the whole version is like?
I think it will be a good addition that really isn't going to affect gameplay, considering how it costs 2 res to get enough ammo in any gun you pick up from your commander.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, let's imagine for a second that Grendel mentions item A. Item A is currently being tested, and might make it in. This news spreads in the community. Some take a liking to it, some don't. A lot of controversy generates itself over it. At the end, a lot of people look forward to item A. Problem is that the PTs determine item A does not work. It's being replaced, as happens all the time during the tests - but since item A had garnered fans, those are being dissapointed. Just this happened to the now infamous Gorge suckling. We prefer to wait until we know something will stay in. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But those days were the best! When the developer forums were visable to everyone and there was a interesting discussion almost every day <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I dont think people being dissapointed is an issue, its their fault for assuming every playtested feature is final <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Aug 25 2004, 08:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Aug 25 2004, 08:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Might I suggest to everyone to just wait until the full changelog is being released before falling into 'buff'-'nerf' debates over single items on a list containing more than 90?
<!--QuoteBegin-UKchaos+Aug 25 2004, 05:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UKchaos @ Aug 25 2004, 05:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can think of 4 Kharaa buffs we are testing in this patch alone.
No, I can't tell you what they are. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, let's imagine for a second that Grendel mentions item A. Item A is currently being tested, and might make it in. This news spreads in the community. Some take a liking to it, some don't. A lot of controversy generates itself over it. At the end, a lot of people look forward to item A. Problem is that the PTs determine item A does not work. It's being replaced, as happens all the time during the tests - but since item A had garnered fans, those are being dissapointed. Just this happened to the now infamous Gorge suckling. We prefer to wait until we know something will stay in. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really dude, I know most of the important changes in b5 changelog, and I've been telling people here and there a few things... like when they complain about gorges, or about the onos, and after I state the changes people don't go:
"BUT OMG THIS CREATES NEW PROBLEMS"
Actually it just shuts them up. Don't tell the whole changelog, but just a few items here or there.
In example... had grendel told those four kharaa buffs this thread would have ended awhile ago in terms of the topic and bitchin.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
edited August 2004
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Aug 25 2004, 08:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Aug 25 2004, 08:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Might I suggest to everyone to just wait until the full changelog is being released before falling into 'buff'-'nerf' debates over single items on a list containing more than 90?
<!--QuoteBegin-UKchaos+Aug 25 2004, 05:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UKchaos @ Aug 25 2004, 05:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can think of 4 Kharaa buffs we are testing in this patch alone.
No, I can't tell you what they are. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, let's imagine for a second that Grendel mentions item A. Item A is currently being tested, and might make it in. This news spreads in the community. Some take a liking to it, some don't. A lot of controversy generates itself over it. At the end, a lot of people look forward to item A. Problem is that the PTs determine item A does not work. It's being replaced, as happens all the time during the tests - but since item A had garnered fans, those are being dissapointed. Just this happened to the now infamous Gorge suckling. We prefer to wait until we know something will stay in. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really dude, I know most of the important changes in b5 changelog, and I've been telling people here and there a few things... like when they complain about gorges, or about the onos, and after I state the changes people don't go:
"BUT OMG THIS CREATES NEW PROBLEMS"
Actually it just shuts them up. Don't tell the whole changelog, but just a few items here or there.
In example... had grendel told those four kharaa buffs this thread would have ended awhile ago in terms of the topic and bitchin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forlorn, check the announcement forum, I've been doing precisely that for the past 2 weeks...
Dropping a few tidbits of data here/threre and I've been doing it at least once a week.
Also none of the playtesters should be sharing that information anyway. That's precistely what PR is for, so instead of it being buried in some obscure thread, it can be placed in a location where many people can see it easily.
This cuts down on/eliminates the "I think I heard Flayra say one time..." type of discussions.
First of all, the ammo thing isn't so much a feature as fixing a flaw. A marine carrying around ten tons of ammo doesn't take it with him when he dies. That's silly, and it results in marine deaths that are not deserved. I for one do not want to be saved/killed by a glitch or flaw.
Second, who cares if it helps the marines, so long as it makes gameplay more natural and fun? It's not like they don't have other things to tweak.
May as well wait and see <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <img src='http://www.gbwt.org/pray.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+Aug 25 2004, 08:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Aug 25 2004, 08:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yep. It's being reduced, which is exactly what the doctor ordered. Marines will no longer fly 20 feet across the room if they jump at the right time, in the right direction, hold duck, right before the skulk lands the bite. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OMG I can't fly away and get resupply in midair with plenty of distance to kill the skulk be fore he gets to me?
Finally some balance <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-moomin.+Aug 26 2004, 05:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moomin. @ Aug 26 2004, 05:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You do realise that in beta2 or whichever version it was they made acid rockets fire at twice the rate of fire but do half damage they changed it back to what it was originally like before that the next patch?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-Beta 2 Changelog+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Beta 2 Changelog)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->O Halved acid rocket damage and energy cost (to make rockets more fun to use)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's the <i>last</i> time AR was mentioned in any changelog. Just so everyone's on the same page, this means that since b2, rockets have been half as powerful, because they have half the damage and half the energy cost, but RoF was never changed. The AR problem gets thrown around a lot, but no one seems clear on exactly what it is. That's what it is. 25 damage rockets instead of 50 damage, firing at the same rate of fire. The change in energy usage doesn't affect anything, because you now have to sit in front of a marine base lobbing rockets twice as long to take a structure down anyway, and you'll die of lmg/turret fire long before you can take out a Tfac.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited August 2004
[CAVEAT POSTORZ - The following was how area damage used to work pre-1.0. Flayra may well have changed it in the interim.]
"Explosive" weapons in HL work by doing X damage at the focal point, then tailing off as you get further away. The damage degradation is fixed, IIRC. So if you want to increase the GL damage, for example, by 100pts, you will increase the area of effect.
Conversely, by reducing acid rocket's damage, you decrease the area of effect as well. As a consequence of this, you will do little or no damage at all, unless you score a direct hit. A near miss will do roughly the same amount of damage as parasite, whereas the old acid rocket would still do about 30 damage if you missed.
This would explain why despite only halving the maximum damage, the weapon ends up doing about a 10 points of damage per hit. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-moomin.+Aug 26 2004, 06:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moomin. @ Aug 26 2004, 06:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> EEK: You do realise that in beta2 or whichever version it was they made acid rockets fire at twice the rate of fire but do half damage they changed it back to what it was originally like before that the next patch?
On the subject of ammo from guns:
Why are you complaining? It's not like they're releasing V3.0 and in the changelog only have "We put dropping ammo in. Also, we don't care about aliens. LOL!" This was just one of the things Zunni decided to tell the community about in the recent news post. Instead of whining about how Flayra is Satan and only cares what the EVIL CLANNERS!!!!!!!!!! think and how he wants to ruin the game for your little community built on mutual masturbation who OBVIOUSLY know how to play and balance the game, because, you know, you've played NS since v1.0 on public servers where you have thoroughly tested all versions with your BRILLIANT public skills, why don't you shut the **** up and wait to see what the whole version is like?
I think it will be a good addition that really isn't going to affect gameplay, considering how it costs 2 res to get enough ammo in any gun you pick up from your commander. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well said sir
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Aug 26 2004, 06:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Aug 26 2004, 06:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "Explosive" weapons in HL work by doing X damage at the focal point, then tailing off as you get further away. The damage degradation is fixed, IIRC. So if you want to increase the GL damage, for example, by 100pts, you will increase the area of effect. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That has certainly been my thoughts on the subject, and every in-game experiance has only supported it.
It's why I've suggested doing something about the drop-off (if possible) before we play with other stuff. Being able to actually fire decent numbers of AR by reducing damage/energy cost isn't inherantly a bad thing (and increasing the fire rate is still limited by energy costs), but slaughtering the splash radius makes the weapon extremely unforgiving to use.
<!--QuoteBegin-devicenull+Aug 27 2004, 03:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (devicenull @ Aug 27 2004, 03:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bah, give it a week or two after release, there will probably be a plugin to remove the ammo packs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I find this as likely as a plugin that removes receiving medpacks at the armoury.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Aug 27 2004, 12:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Aug 27 2004, 12:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...despite only halving the maximum damage, the weapon ends up doing about a 10 points of damage per hit. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So , you can tell us one of the "Kharaa buffs" now. It's not like there would be much controversy about the acid rocket's renewed strength , it's a needed fix.
If nothing is done to the AR , the next version will feel just as balanced as 2.0 and 3.0 ... I'm sorry , but there's not enough remaining faith in the devs to convince anyone that beta 5 will be the most balanced build. We want proofs ! Some evidence that the playtesting is going well , and that the devs are truly enhancing NS and not just messing around with gimmicks like ammo dropping.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Aug 27 2004, 12:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Aug 27 2004, 12:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...despite only halving the maximum damage, the weapon ends up doing about a 10 points of damage per hit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So , you can tell us one of the "Kharaa buffs" now. It's not like there would be much controversy about the acid rocket's renewed strength , it's a needed fix.
If nothing is done to the AR , the next version will feel just as balanced as 2.0 and 3.0 ... I'm sorry , but there's not enough remaining faith in the devs to convince anyone that beta 5 will be the most balanced build. We want proofs ! Some evidence that the playtesting is going well , and that the devs are truly enhancing NS and not just messing around with gimmicks like ammo dropping.
B5 is mostly bug fixes, you know this, this has been stated many many times before...
I wouldn't expect the balance to change tremendously from B4a to B5.. Let's get some of the known and unknown annoyances taken care of, see where that leaves the balance of the game and then work from there shall we?
I made a <b>simple</b> demand , to admit that Acid Rocket is being fixed in beta 5 , or have to courage to admit the opposite.
It's one thing to patiently wait for beta 5 to be released , but people have lost their patience when it comes to the Acid Rocket issue.
Will the Acid Rocket be fixed in beta 5 , <i>yes</i> or <i>no</i> ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I've stated many times before. B5 isn't finished, otherwise it would be released....
So there are still things that are going to be put in it, or there are still things based on testing that will be removed/changed. So I can't answer this question YES or NO, because it hasn't been decided for 100% sure. The things I've already talked about in the announcements forum are a few things that are in, and work and we know will be staying in relatively unchanged. But there is no guarantee on that either. Knock-back's values (for example) may change again before the final B5 release. I don't know at this point.
Testing is one very good way we get an indication of how things are working. However as other changes are made, situations occur where those initial values don't work any longer and need to be adjusted.
I hope this clarifies this for you. I'd be happy to talk about this further in PM if you'd like.
<!--QuoteBegin-taboofires+Aug 27 2004, 02:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ Aug 27 2004, 02:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't beleive you are in a position to <i>demand</i> anything. Nor is anyone else. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> According to that logic , if Flayra choses to implement a scorpion that hovers without flapping in NS final then we should just deal with it and respect his choice...
Creating a game comes with responsabilities , such as communicating with its community. Ignoring the player base causes any game to die.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->According to that logic , if Flayra choses to implement a scorpion that hovers without flapping in NS final then we should just deal with it and respect his choice...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually that is 100% correct. If Flayra did that, you would have to just deal with it and respect his decisions...
Bottom line is this is Flayra's game and he gets to make whatever choices concerning it's future he wants.
<!--QuoteBegin-moomin.+Aug 26 2004, 06:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moomin. @ Aug 26 2004, 06:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> why don't you shut the **** up and wait to see what the whole version is like? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because I have "shut the **** up and waited to see what the whole version is like". I've been doing that since v1.01, and more recently, while waiting through these atrocities they call beta patches that we're getting once every four months. I've been nothing but dissapointed over and over again. Furthermore, this is Public Beta Discussion' so if you can't handle me 'Discussing the Public Beta', 'why don't you just leave? No one's making you read these. ****.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->EEK: You do realise that in beta2 or whichever version it was they made acid rockets fire at twice the rate of fire but do half damage they changed it back to what it was originally like before that the next patch?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they didn't. I've been anticipating every changelog since b2, I've scanned each one hoping to see:
<b>O ACID ROCKET DOESN'T SUCK **** ANYMORE O CHARGE MIGHT DO MORE THEN GIVE MARINES SOME BAD BRUISES O ONOS IS NO LONGER A HIT-AND-RUN MACK TRUCK</b>
So far I've been pretty dissapointed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->According to that logic , if Flayra choses to implement a scorpion that hovers without flapping in NS final then we should just deal with it and respect his choice...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually that is 100% correct. If Flayra did that, you would have to just deal with it and respect his decisions...
Bottom line is this is Flayra's game and he gets to make whatever choices concerning it's future he wants.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably yeah, but if you want to kill a game as fast as you can, you do exactly that - Screw the community, screw your players, do whatever the **** you want. Flayra is doing this FOR THE PLAYERS, NOT FOR HIMSELF. He used to chat with the players in threads. He used to provide some clarification on concepts. He'd respond to questions and feedback on betas. That was a long time ago.
Lately he's adapted exactly that attitude. The vet program and the playtesting sessions showed that he really didn't care about most of the community. Now the vet program is gone, so that leaves who? The couple dozen PTs? We hear <b>jack crap</b> until one day, out of the blue, we get told 'HOLY COW GUYS THE PATCH IS HERE!', and a week later get told it'll be a couple <b>days</b> delay to fix a single lousy crash bug, and that was... hehe a long time ago. Flayra could have a great job working for Valve, I can tell you that.
Now I know what's coming now. Either it'll be the "**** you EEK why don't you make your own mod", or the "Give the guy some respect he's had blah-blah-blah going on". For one, I HAVE made mods, I created a handful of scripts for Tribes, worked side-by-side with the creater of Meltdown on it, and even created my own work, until tragically my mod team stabbed me in the back and distributed the source code. Now you can see my works all over the place. Secondly, when I undertake the decision to make a map, mod, model, or skin, I've undertaken a responsibility to the people waiting for what I'm creating. I'm obliged to release my product in a timely manner. I'm not making a map for myself. What am I going to do, play around in it all alone? I might learn from the experience, but ultimately I am working FOR OTHER PEOPLE.
NS used to be like that. Now we get told artificial release dates for already overdue patches, then get told it's being delayed for a fake reason. And I have no right to be ****?
In patch news, the team is hard at work on beta 5. We expect to have the ‘hitbox’ bug fixed (related to slot that player inhabited on server), along with resource tower/collision improvements, HLTV improvements and lots more. This patch will be mostly bug fixes, and we expect to release it Friday, July 23rd, in time for testing before the CPL. We are also hoping to have NS released officially on Steam (under “My Games” instead of “Third Party Games”) shortly thereafter. After NS is released on Steam, and some of the more pressing issues are taken care of, we’ll get back to adding new features to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Due to problems fixing two big bugs, we are unfortunately going to have to delay the release scheduled for today. <b>Voogru and Elven have been working really hard to find and fix the 'hitbox' bug (which really has nothing to do with hitboxes) and a client-crash recently introduced for listenservers.</b> We are hoping that this release will be the official 3.0 release, and want to make sure it's especially solid. I under-estimated the difficulty of fixing these bugs, which is exacerbated by the fact that these guys are new to NS coding, and have had to hit the ground running.
<b>We're still going to try to release before the CPL next week</b>, but if it's not ready in time, we'll wait until after. There are so many bug-fixes, map updates and polish items in this version that I think it'll be worth the wait.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(Note that Valve fixed the hitbox bug for everyone - We all knew Valve was doing this before this news announcement came out)
EEK, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and you obviously aren't going to change yours. But let me remind you that beta 5 is supposed to be a "clean slate." It's composed primarily of bug fixes and features the devs have been working on for a while. After that, balance takes a priority.
<!--QuoteBegin-Maian+Aug 27 2004, 11:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maian @ Aug 27 2004, 11:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> EEK, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and you obviously aren't going to change yours. But let me remind you that beta 5 is supposed to be a "clean slate." It's composed primarily of bug fixes and features the devs have been working on for a while. After that, balance takes a priority. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't find it insulting that they lied to us? A simple listenserver crash bug they said. Nothing about still implementing new features and playtesting them. If they had just SAID 3 months ago that a release date wasn't visible, if they just SAID that progress was being made too slowly and they're still implementing features on the 23rd, I probably wouldn't even be having this argument. But after laziness, lies, and a general attitude (at least that I'm getting) of 'I don't care', we finally get some information, it's ANOTHER buff for marines, and they can't even confirm or deny that Acid Rocket will change.
I almost feel bad for Zunni because he has to clean up all this ****.
Comments
why do you think they shut down the forums eh? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually it's because the traffic load on the website to find the patch, and the traffic the forum get melts their server. I think Monse explained this, that on patch day forums get swamped, the whole shebang crashes, and no one can get the patch, then they bring it back up, people flood the forums complaining that the patch is down, etc.
As for the turret upgrade, I could've sworn in 2.0 or something they stated over and over that upgrades would NO LONGER buff turrets... now it's a bug?
thats only if the health is near max.
Eg: Fade Health = 290 + regen of 27 hp
This translates as 300 hp and 17 armour.
Yes this *might* help a little bit wit hstatic defense etc, but it isnt going to help with smaller life forms or in fire fights with advanced weapons. As for knockback, maybe it can be called a buff but really it is a bug that has had a long time coming to be fixed.
On the subject of ammo from guns:
Why are you complaining? It's not like they're releasing V3.0 and in the changelog only have "We put dropping ammo in. Also, we don't care about aliens. LOL!" This was just one of the things Zunni decided to tell the community about in the recent news post. Instead of whining about how Flayra is Satan and only cares what the EVIL CLANNERS!!!!!!!!!! think and how he wants to ruin the game for your little community built on mutual masturbation who OBVIOUSLY know how to play and balance the game, because, you know, you've played NS since v1.0 on public servers where you have thoroughly tested all versions with your BRILLIANT public skills, why don't you shut the **** up and wait to see what the whole version is like?
I think it will be a good addition that really isn't going to affect gameplay, considering how it costs 2 res to get enough ammo in any gun you pick up from your commander.
Item A is currently being tested, and might make it in. This news spreads in the community. Some take a liking to it, some don't. A lot of controversy generates itself over it. At the end, a lot of people look forward to item A.
Problem is that the PTs determine item A does not work. It's being replaced, as happens all the time during the tests - but since item A had garnered fans, those are being dissapointed. Just this happened to the now infamous Gorge suckling.
We prefer to wait until we know something will stay in. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But those days were the best! When the developer forums were visable to everyone and there was a interesting discussion almost every day <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I dont think people being dissapointed is an issue, its their fault for assuming every playtested feature is final <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-UKchaos+Aug 25 2004, 05:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UKchaos @ Aug 25 2004, 05:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can think of 4 Kharaa buffs we are testing in this patch alone.
No, I can't tell you what they are. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, let's imagine for a second that Grendel mentions item A.
Item A is currently being tested, and might make it in. This news spreads in the community. Some take a liking to it, some don't. A lot of controversy generates itself over it. At the end, a lot of people look forward to item A.
Problem is that the PTs determine item A does not work. It's being replaced, as happens all the time during the tests - but since item A had garnered fans, those are being dissapointed. Just this happened to the now infamous Gorge suckling.
We prefer to wait until we know something will stay in. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really dude, I know most of the important changes in b5 changelog, and I've been telling people here and there a few things... like when they complain about gorges, or about the onos, and after I state the changes people don't go:
"BUT OMG THIS CREATES NEW PROBLEMS"
Actually it just shuts them up. Don't tell the whole changelog, but just a few items here or there.
In example... had grendel told those four kharaa buffs this thread would have ended awhile ago in terms of the topic and bitchin.
<!--QuoteBegin-UKchaos+Aug 25 2004, 05:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UKchaos @ Aug 25 2004, 05:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can think of 4 Kharaa buffs we are testing in this patch alone.
No, I can't tell you what they are. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, let's imagine for a second that Grendel mentions item A.
Item A is currently being tested, and might make it in. This news spreads in the community. Some take a liking to it, some don't. A lot of controversy generates itself over it. At the end, a lot of people look forward to item A.
Problem is that the PTs determine item A does not work. It's being replaced, as happens all the time during the tests - but since item A had garnered fans, those are being dissapointed. Just this happened to the now infamous Gorge suckling.
We prefer to wait until we know something will stay in. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really dude, I know most of the important changes in b5 changelog, and I've been telling people here and there a few things... like when they complain about gorges, or about the onos, and after I state the changes people don't go:
"BUT OMG THIS CREATES NEW PROBLEMS"
Actually it just shuts them up. Don't tell the whole changelog, but just a few items here or there.
In example... had grendel told those four kharaa buffs this thread would have ended awhile ago in terms of the topic and bitchin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forlorn, check the announcement forum, I've been doing precisely that for the past 2 weeks...
Dropping a few tidbits of data here/threre and I've been doing it at least once a week.
Also none of the playtesters should be sharing that information anyway. That's precistely what PR is for, so instead of it being buried in some obscure thread, it can be placed in a location where many people can see it easily.
This cuts down on/eliminates the "I think I heard Flayra say one time..." type of discussions.
-Zunni (PR, Natural Selection team)
Second, who cares if it helps the marines, so long as it makes gameplay more natural and fun? It's not like they don't have other things to tweak.
May as well wait and see <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<img src='http://www.gbwt.org/pray.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
OMG I can't fly away and get resupply in midair with plenty of distance to kill the skulk be fore he gets to me?
Finally some balance <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Beta 2 Changelog+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Beta 2 Changelog)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->O Halved acid rocket damage and energy cost (to make rockets more fun to use)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the <i>last</i> time AR was mentioned in any changelog. Just so everyone's on the same page, this means that since b2, rockets have been half as powerful, because they have half the damage and half the energy cost, but RoF was never changed. The AR problem gets thrown around a lot, but no one seems clear on exactly what it is. That's what it is. 25 damage rockets instead of 50 damage, firing at the same rate of fire. The change in energy usage doesn't affect anything, because you now have to sit in front of a marine base lobbing rockets twice as long to take a structure down anyway, and you'll die of lmg/turret fire long before you can take out a Tfac.
"Explosive" weapons in HL work by doing X damage at the focal point, then tailing off as you get further away. The damage degradation is fixed, IIRC. So if you want to increase the GL damage, for example, by 100pts, you will increase the area of effect.
Conversely, by reducing acid rocket's damage, you decrease the area of effect as well. As a consequence of this, you will do little or no damage at all, unless you score a direct hit. A near miss will do roughly the same amount of damage as parasite, whereas the old acid rocket would still do about 30 damage if you missed.
This would explain why despite only halving the maximum damage, the weapon ends up doing about a 10 points of damage per hit. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
On the subject of ammo from guns:
Why are you complaining? It's not like they're releasing V3.0 and in the changelog only have "We put dropping ammo in. Also, we don't care about aliens. LOL!" This was just one of the things Zunni decided to tell the community about in the recent news post. Instead of whining about how Flayra is Satan and only cares what the EVIL CLANNERS!!!!!!!!!! think and how he wants to ruin the game for your little community built on mutual masturbation who OBVIOUSLY know how to play and balance the game, because, you know, you've played NS since v1.0 on public servers where you have thoroughly tested all versions with your BRILLIANT public skills, why don't you shut the **** up and wait to see what the whole version is like?
I think it will be a good addition that really isn't going to affect gameplay, considering how it costs 2 res to get enough ammo in any gun you pick up from your commander. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said sir
All that ammo piles up, you know, and if you can just live off of dead comrades....that eliminates some res that can go towards shotguns and upgrades.
That has certainly been my thoughts on the subject, and every in-game experiance has only supported it.
It's why I've suggested doing something about the drop-off (if possible) before we play with other stuff. Being able to actually fire decent numbers of AR by reducing damage/energy cost isn't inherantly a bad thing (and increasing the fire rate is still limited by energy costs), but slaughtering the splash radius makes the weapon extremely unforgiving to use.
I find this as likely as a plugin that removes receiving medpacks at the armoury.
So , you can tell us one of the "Kharaa buffs" now. It's not like there would be much controversy about the acid rocket's renewed strength , it's a needed fix.
If nothing is done to the AR , the next version will feel just as balanced as 2.0 and 3.0 ... I'm sorry , but there's not enough remaining faith in the devs to convince anyone that beta 5 will be the most balanced build. We want proofs ! Some evidence that the playtesting is going well , and that the devs are truly enhancing NS and not just messing around with gimmicks like ammo dropping.
Rant over.
So , you can tell us one of the "Kharaa buffs" now. It's not like there would be much controversy about the acid rocket's renewed strength , it's a needed fix.
If nothing is done to the AR , the next version will feel just as balanced as 2.0 and 3.0 ... I'm sorry , but there's not enough remaining faith in the devs to convince anyone that beta 5 will be the most balanced build. We want proofs ! Some evidence that the playtesting is going well , and that the devs are truly enhancing NS and not just messing around with gimmicks like ammo dropping.
Rant over.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
B5 is mostly bug fixes, you know this, this has been stated many many times before...
I wouldn't expect the balance to change tremendously from B4a to B5.. Let's get some of the known and unknown annoyances taken care of, see where that leaves the balance of the game and then work from there shall we?
-Zunni
I made a <b>simple</b> demand , to admit that Acid Rocket is being fixed in beta 5 , or have to courage to admit the opposite.
It's one thing to patiently wait for beta 5 to be released , but people have lost their patience when it comes to the Acid Rocket issue.
Will the Acid Rocket be fixed in beta 5 , <i>yes</i> or <i>no</i> ?
I made a <b>simple</b> demand , to admit that Acid Rocket is being fixed in beta 5 , or have to courage to admit the opposite.
It's one thing to patiently wait for beta 5 to be released , but people have lost their patience when it comes to the Acid Rocket issue.
Will the Acid Rocket be fixed in beta 5 , <i>yes</i> or <i>no</i> ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I've stated many times before. B5 isn't finished, otherwise it would be released....
So there are still things that are going to be put in it, or there are still things based on testing that will be removed/changed. So I can't answer this question YES or NO, because it hasn't been decided for 100% sure. The things I've already talked about in the announcements forum are a few things that are in, and work and we know will be staying in relatively unchanged. But there is no guarantee on that either. Knock-back's values (for example) may change again before the final B5 release. I don't know at this point.
Testing is one very good way we get an indication of how things are working. However as other changes are made, situations occur where those initial values don't work any longer and need to be adjusted.
I hope this clarifies this for you. I'd be happy to talk about this further in PM if you'd like.
-Zunni (PR, Natural Selection team)
According to that logic , if Flayra choses to implement a scorpion that hovers without flapping in NS final then we should just deal with it and respect his choice...
Creating a game comes with responsabilities , such as communicating with its community. Ignoring the player base causes any game to die.
Actually that is 100% correct. If Flayra did that, you would have to just deal with it and respect his decisions...
Bottom line is this is Flayra's game and he gets to make whatever choices concerning it's future he wants.
Because I have "shut the **** up and waited to see what the whole version is like". I've been doing that since v1.01, and more recently, while waiting through these atrocities they call beta patches that we're getting once every four months. I've been nothing but dissapointed over and over again. Furthermore, this is Public Beta Discussion' so if you can't handle me 'Discussing the Public Beta', 'why don't you just leave? No one's making you read these. ****.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->EEK: You do realise that in beta2 or whichever version it was they made acid rockets fire at twice the rate of fire but do half damage they changed it back to what it was originally like before that the next patch?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they didn't. I've been anticipating every changelog since b2, I've scanned each one hoping to see:
<b>O ACID ROCKET DOESN'T SUCK **** ANYMORE
O CHARGE MIGHT DO MORE THEN GIVE MARINES SOME BAD BRUISES
O ONOS IS NO LONGER A HIT-AND-RUN MACK TRUCK</b>
So far I've been pretty dissapointed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->According to that logic , if Flayra choses to implement a scorpion that hovers without flapping in NS final then we should just deal with it and respect his choice...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually that is 100% correct. If Flayra did that, you would have to just deal with it and respect his decisions...
Bottom line is this is Flayra's game and he gets to make whatever choices concerning it's future he wants.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably yeah, but if you want to kill a game as fast as you can, you do exactly that - Screw the community, screw your players, do whatever the **** you want. Flayra is doing this FOR THE PLAYERS, NOT FOR HIMSELF. He used to chat with the players in threads. He used to provide some clarification on concepts. He'd respond to questions and feedback on betas. That was a long time ago.
Lately he's adapted exactly that attitude. The vet program and the playtesting sessions showed that he really didn't care about most of the community. Now the vet program is gone, so that leaves who? The couple dozen PTs? We hear <b>jack crap</b> until one day, out of the blue, we get told 'HOLY COW GUYS THE PATCH IS HERE!', and a week later get told it'll be a couple <b>days</b> delay to fix a single lousy crash bug, and that was... hehe a long time ago. Flayra could have a great job working for Valve, I can tell you that.
Now I know what's coming now. Either it'll be the "**** you EEK why don't you make your own mod", or the "Give the guy some respect he's had blah-blah-blah going on". For one, I HAVE made mods, I created a handful of scripts for Tribes, worked side-by-side with the creater of Meltdown on it, and even created my own work, until tragically my mod team stabbed me in the back and distributed the source code. Now you can see my works all over the place. Secondly, when I undertake the decision to make a map, mod, model, or skin, I've undertaken a responsibility to the people waiting for what I'm creating. I'm obliged to release my product in a timely manner. I'm not making a map for myself. What am I going to do, play around in it all alone? I might learn from the experience, but ultimately I am working FOR OTHER PEOPLE.
NS used to be like that. Now we get told artificial release dates for already overdue patches, then get told it's being delayed for a fake reason. And I have no right to be ****?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[ 5/01/04 ]:: Beta 4a released!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[ 7/06/04 ]:: Rebirth
In patch news, the team is hard at work on beta 5. We expect to have the ‘hitbox’ bug fixed (related to slot that player inhabited on server), along with resource tower/collision improvements, HLTV improvements and lots more. This patch will be mostly bug fixes, and we expect to release it Friday, July 23rd, in time for testing before the CPL. We are also hoping to have NS released officially on Steam (under “My Games” instead of “Third Party Games”) shortly thereafter. After NS is released on Steam, and some of the more pressing issues are taken care of, we’ll get back to adding new features to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[ 7/23/04 ]:: Release delayed
Due to problems fixing two big bugs, we are unfortunately going to have to delay the release scheduled for today. <b>Voogru and Elven have been working really hard to find and fix the 'hitbox' bug (which really has nothing to do with hitboxes) and a client-crash recently introduced for listenservers.</b> We are hoping that this release will be the official 3.0 release, and want to make sure it's especially solid. I under-estimated the difficulty of fixing these bugs, which is exacerbated by the fact that these guys are new to NS coding, and have had to hit the ground running.
<b>We're still going to try to release before the CPL next week</b>, but if it's not ready in time, we'll wait until after. There are so many bug-fixes, map updates and polish items in this version that I think it'll be worth the wait.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(Note that Valve fixed the hitbox bug for everyone - We all knew Valve was doing this before this news announcement came out)
You don't find it insulting that they lied to us? A simple listenserver crash bug they said. Nothing about still implementing new features and playtesting them. If they had just SAID 3 months ago that a release date wasn't visible, if they just SAID that progress was being made too slowly and they're still implementing features on the 23rd, I probably wouldn't even be having this argument. But after laziness, lies, and a general attitude (at least that I'm getting) of 'I don't care', we finally get some information, it's ANOTHER buff for marines, and they can't even confirm or deny that Acid Rocket will change.
I almost feel bad for Zunni because he has to clean up all this ****.