<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Aug 20 2004, 02:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Aug 20 2004, 02:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Regarding the whole 6v6 issue, note that it was never intended to be the only 'fitting' server size, so better don't base your argument on that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It wasn't supposed to be my arguement, i'm all for nerfing these damn turrets, i was just thinking it would probebly be your argument, <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
a perfect example <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
note: I had to cut off my armor/health displays or it would be over 120kb. Anyway, notice the lack of armor or weapons upgrades, the turret farm in BOTH hives, and the time (22 minutes into the game). This game is absolutely the most boring thing ever. I bet it went on for another 10 minutes after I left (shortly after this screenshot...)
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Aug 20 2004, 02:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Aug 20 2004, 02:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> limiting them per area isn't enough imo, just reduce their damage to 2. Even if you limit turrets/room to 8, that's still plenty of turrets when combined with elec to hold off any amount of skulks and fades with MINIMAL marine support. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 20 + 16 (assuming every single one of the turrets hits the skulk) = 36.
<!--QuoteBegin-Alkiller+Aug 20 2004, 07:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alkiller @ Aug 20 2004, 07:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Aug 20 2004, 02:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Aug 20 2004, 02:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> limiting them per area isn't enough imo, just reduce their damage to 2. Even if you limit turrets/room to 8, that's still plenty of turrets when combined with elec to hold off any amount of skulks and fades with MINIMAL marine support. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 20 + 16 (assuming every single one of the turrets hits the skulk) = 36.
Skulks have 90 hp.
Take what, 6 seconds for one skulk to die?
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh yeah if he teleports in there... more than likely he will get very low before he gets to the TF, and remember the first shot takes 0 time. So 4 seconds...
Why should turrets be good anyway? I seriously would be VERY happy if turrets were reduced to 2 damage, or aliens given a viable counter before hive2. Either is fine with me, although I'd prefer nerfing turrets. See screenshot <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Aliens have all rts except 3, and they don't have enough fades/onos to crack at least one of those hives? Especially generator; sewer hive is ridiculously hard to get marines out of I know. I mean, you take a screen shot of the game at the 22 minute mark, but what was it like at the 5 minute mark? The 10 minute? This should never have been allowed to happen; if your skulks and/or early lerks can't prevent 0/0 marines from expanding....you're going to lose. Simple.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
I'd opt to take out static defenses and replace them with something else to boost the atmosphere of NS - perhaps cheap traps, or something along those lines, for both aliens and marines.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Aug 20 2004, 03:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Aug 20 2004, 03:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> limiting them per area isn't enough imo, just reduce their damage to 2. Even if you limit turrets/room to 8, that's still plenty of turrets when combined with elec to hold off any amount of skulks and fades with MINIMAL marine support. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nobody said it had to be 8 turrets. 8 is probably too much for both OCs and turrets to be honest.
2 damage? Are you serious? Name one feasible use for turrets that take almost 50 shots to kill a single skulk. I know you want them to be worthless but that much of a nerf isn't going to happen. You should stick to suggesting their removal; it has the same chance of happening and at least it makes your intentions clear. I know where you're coming from with static defenses, but there are plenty of ways to get rid of self-preserving turret farms without just removing turrets. It's not at all unreasonable for static defense to play some role in an RTS hybrid.
If we can accept the fact that structures won't be removed(literally or effectively) from the game, we can stick to productive suggestions.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Aug 21 2004, 12:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Aug 21 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ok 4 damage? make them next to useless. you shouldn't be able to replace skill with +use. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The central argument is that if you let them +use, you lost in the first place.
Every instance you've pointed out is a failure on the ALIEN SIDE.. not an overbalance on the marine side.
Turrets do not belong in a first person shooter multiplayer game in my opinion. Granted they are a neat idea to try to implement into a game, but as far as im concerned static deffense negates a lot of this games potential.
Here is why...
Map control. This is a necessity for pretty much every fps game i have ever played. Its simple, you keep track of the other teams movement throughout the map, control key areas/chokepoints, and cut them off from areas you dont want them to be. With turrets in Natural Selection it allows you to cover these areas without actual player presence, this is the problem. As a team you shouldn't have static defense guard an area of a map so you can control another area of the map with less effort. It removes skill, perhaps even tactic from the game. You SHOULD be punished for neglected parts of the map, this is why static defense is bad.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Aug 21 2004, 01:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Aug 21 2004, 01:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Turrets do not belong in a first person shooter multiplayer game in my opinion. Granted they are a neat idea to try to implement into a game, but as far as im concerned static deffense negates a lot of this games potential.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Remember the part where NS is an FPS/RTS hybrid? Not everything in the game has to be decided by FPS skills. Would you rather that we just get rid of turret factories and OCs altogether, and limit the RTS element exclusively to teching?
Nobody is saying that static defenses should be failproof defense of unguarded areas of the map. That doesn't mean they have no place in the game.
The game is over if its lasted a long time. The marines will win, because high tech marines will destroy high tech aliens, although both teams are somewhat balanced in mid and low tech.
No actually high tech aliens destroy high tech marines (if aliens are played with teamwork)... xeno and web anyone? Even 2 hive aliens played well have a 90-99% chance of winning a game IMO. The problem is aliens tech depends on controlling a huge part of the map... marines can have a proto and an adv armory with no map control whatsoever.
4 turrets per area, and you cant electrify TFs serious concern for a skulk, lerk or one hive gorge a "what the heck do I need to scrape off my foot now?" for fade, 2 hive gorge, onos IMO
Really aliens should be spending their first few minutes capping a few and res and looking for that second hive.
If you see a lockdown happening pile into said hive and neutralise everything.
If you can't do that, pray the other hive is open.
If it not, you lose.
Thats about the core of it. Aliens shouldn't let this sort of thing happen. If aliens can quickly rush an unguarded turret hive then they can swiftly clear it and cap it. But it relies on alien teamwork.
Second, saying its a +use skill issue just makes me laugh.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Aug 20 2004, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Aug 20 2004, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Alkiller+Aug 20 2004, 07:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alkiller @ Aug 20 2004, 07:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Aug 20 2004, 02:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Aug 20 2004, 02:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> limiting them per area isn't enough imo, just reduce their damage to 2. Even if you limit turrets/room to 8, that's still plenty of turrets when combined with elec to hold off any amount of skulks and fades with MINIMAL marine support. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 20 + 16 (assuming every single one of the turrets hits the skulk) = 36.
Skulks have 90 hp.
Take what, 6 seconds for one skulk to die?
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh yeah if he teleports in there... more than likely he will get very low before he gets to the TF, and remember the first shot takes 0 time. So 4 seconds...
Why should turrets be good anyway? I seriously would be VERY happy if turrets were reduced to 2 damage, or aliens given a viable counter before hive2. Either is fine with me, although I'd prefer nerfing turrets. See screenshot <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll agree with you there. I'ld rather not nerf turrets but give a viable counter to them at hive 1... but it would have to cost res. It might already be there though... <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Fades should be able to rip through turrets with overflowing regen. Don't ya think? Four turrets (as shown in your beatuiful screanshots screenshot, *does the sticking out tongue emoticon that he would have used if the board didn't restrict the amount of emoticons per post to three*), one fade. If four turrets do 40 damage every second, and a fade heals 47 hp every 2 seconds. Now, alot of that regen goes to armor. So therefore, turrets will do 80 damage every second, and the fade will heal pretty much all of that (10 hp to health, and 37 to armor). He'll be unaffected by the turrets, and the marine support should be no problem for the fade if he knows what he's doing.
I'm still saying we should wait it out (for B5) and see what happens.
mmm we probably should wait but, im an impatient person.
best way (as i see it) is to limit the amount of turrets for each tf. i.e the tf will only allow 3 turrets within its range to fire. OR for every turret above 3 lower rof accordingly of all turrets. OR if the amount of turrets is above 3 lower the range of all turrets in relation to the amount of turrets above 3
-raise tf cost to 15 -lower turret cost to 5 -lower base turret damage to 5 -induce a damage-per-weapon-level curve, i.e
o turret does 5 dmg at lvl0 wep o turret does 7 dmg at lvl1 wep o turret does 10 dmg at lvl2 wep o turret does 15 dmg at lvl3 wep
I simply don’t see the point you’re making, Nadagast – you’re suggesting a balance change based on pub matches, which are far from an accurate means of testing. Even in public you will get a fade around the 4-5 minute mark, and if you turret farm before that stage you will severely compromise all aspects of marine upgrades (arms lab, the armoury and obs). A decent fade is capable of taking out unupgraded marines with ease, and if you have a couple of skulks going around chewing unguarded marine res then it’s impossible to get a “massive” turret farm of 15+ turrets up.
In all instances that you’ve quoted, everything points to either a disparity of skill between the two teams, or a serious tactical error on the part of the aliens. The only other reason I can give is that there’s some difference in tactics for American and Australian servers and thus a difference in perspective, but I don’t really think that’s the case. Maybe you should try pubbing on servers when there’s no skill stack and see if your theory really holds any water whatsoever. In any instance, I don’t mind a small turret nerf...but the levels you’re suggesting (2-4 damage) are really quite ludicrous.
At the moment the onos does walk over turrets. Just try him for once, you'll see that turrets aren't even speedbumps.
Fix res flow for the kharaa so that res is always at 6 player levels. In tournys, with RFK, you could get a fade at 3:30. At the moment in pubs it takes like 5 minutes minimum. Fix it at 6 player levels and we could see fades much earlier at 4-4:30 minutes. As well as hives, ocs, chambers etc etc.
I like the idea of a separate tech tree for turrets. At the very least, adds more options for marines.
Electricity zapping adrenaline, great idea too.
Also, as hive location plays such an important factor, how bout letting the first kharaa to join pick the starting hive. If he doesn't, it just reverts to random.
Another way to aid the kharaa - blank out the commander's map audio for the first 45 seconds. Commanders can listen for kharaa movement and tailor their strats to abuse the kharaa location. Disable this initially, blame it on nano-gridlock, and surprise will be the kharaa's at the start.
Turrets and OC are part of NS, they are also part of atmosphere. I really don't see how you can have problems with them.. They always appeared so weak to me, and in latest version since 2.0x, they are just tiny little bumps on the ground, fade and onos can ignore them completely. Everything, even gorg + skulk kill them, they are useles! Ok, 1 hive aliens might have problems with turret farms, due to lack of coordination, but removing turrets from game is not a solution. They perfectly fit the concept and serve they purpose (alien delayer/ small lifeforms detterant).
I would agree with some onos boost to help eliminating problems on some pubs (speed increase?) but removing static defenses is really a nonsense. It would further limit possibilities and make game boring.
Nadagast the pic of the pub you posted had more to do with a lack of alien teamwork than anything. Had the aliens been more coordinated they could have moved to the other hive (and lamed it up).
The real problem with turrets is that they are too good against unorganized teams but useless against organized ones.
Nadagast, would you please explain to me how 4 turrets + Tfac (55) res around a phase gate is better than 5 packs of mines around a phase gate? That's 20 mines, that's like enough to kill an onos. Not to mention the mines give back some res per kill and are super effective at the one hive level. And yet, you never see anyone complain about that mines are too good.
And the counter to mines (2 hives, bilebomb) is same counter for turrets.
Again, I've never seen turrets used against d chambers first work in a 2 hive situation. Get a regen fade to take out the Tfac or if there are a lot of turrets kill some of the turrets, make a hole in the turret factory and volia it's exposed to skulks.
I have seen a one hive lockdown though, and you have too. Think Pandas vs. eR (rip) back on ns_eclipse in Season 2 semi-finals. Pandas locked down comp core and then continued to keep a constant scan on mainteince hive and just worked to make sure nothing could get started there. eR focused on taking back comp core from turrets + 3 marines at a time, and lost. I wonder what would have happened had they simply left it alone and thrown up the hive at maintence. Of course this probably would not have gone well because they did the foolish mistake of putting their DC's at the Comp core vent which ended up getting sieged and screwed up eR.
The one place where I have seen turrets used outside of hives is when you are seiging, and sometimes it actually works out fairly well. You place down one or two turrets just to help hold an area while you seige.
I remember on one scrim our commander (porcha at the time) placed one turret in the middle of cargo on ns_tanith. A fade ran in, we scored 3 hits on him with a sg but he lived.... untill he was right around the courner he died from one last turret shot. Was one of the funniest things I've ever seen in a scrim and we gave the mvp to the turret that game.
But really nada, you can't complain about turrets when mines are better and faster to use.
forlorn you can avoid mines though or simply suicide into them to get them to go away (or spit, thats a hive1 counter)... With Turrets they hit anything in the room and with minimal marine backup you will easily be able to hold off fades (or kill the bad pub fades).
And to everyone saying don't let the marines get a farm in the hive, it's a lot harder than it sounds. Marines vs hive 1 aliens is not a pretty sight. Skulks get absolutely mowed down by just LMG marines and fades can help but they can't stop a bunch of marines coming in and just putting up a PG then TF... by then the game is over. I've seen it happen (from the Fade's pov) way too many times.
i don't think spit destroys mines. Any ways, suiciding into them is bad if RFk stays.
Mines aren't better than turrets for holding an area, but they are a hell of alot faster. Using 2 packs of mines to hold a hive until a pg/tf/obs goes up is very cost effective. You may argue that shotties work better, but if your rine can'tshoot wortha **** (or somehow SCs get dropped early) then that can back fire.
As for turrets, i think the angle of fire needs to change. Unless teh room has a REALLY high roof, you can't take advantage of the blindspot ontop of the turret.
Spit does destroy mines. Trust me, I'm a gorge player.
With mines however you can spam out mine packs like there's no tomorrow, and if the pg is well covered then you can take leftover mines down to the hive entrance itself.
Yes you can spit mines but that relies on you being in a position to spit them and the marines being complacent enough to ignore you spitting their mines. On base raids you can spit mines down but rines will either spawn in or bacon back to base and snuff you. If you're at a pg, you can spit mines but while you do so the pg remains unharmed. Second, if you just run and detonate them with your body then you end up in the spawn queue which can sometime make the difference between a successful phase rush and an unsuccessful one.
Thirdly, mines around a pg can be damn hard to spot, you're almost guaranteed of a skulk kill or 3. Turrets are easy to spot and in most cases easy to avoid due to a hole in coverage.
Mines, imho, are a lot cheaper, more disposable, and much more flexible.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Aug 21 2004, 04:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Aug 21 2004, 04:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> forlorn you can avoid mines though or simply suicide into them to get them to go away (or spit, thats a hive1 counter)... With Turrets they hit anything in the room and with minimal marine backup you will easily be able to hold off fades (or kill the bad pub fades).
And to everyone saying don't let the marines get a farm in the hive, it's a lot harder than it sounds. Marines vs hive 1 aliens is not a pretty sight. Skulks get absolutely mowed down by just LMG marines and fades can help but they can't stop a bunch of marines coming in and just putting up a PG then TF... by then the game is over. I've seen it happen (from the Fade's pov) way too many times. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you spam 20 mines around a PG you cannot simply avoid it because you need to get that PG down. And mines with marine backup is still really good because if the fades hit a mine then they are weaked by any shotgunner who is covering and now has one less SG shot to nail on the fade before the fade dies.
And it's possible to stop marines from putting up a phase, but you need a lerk to be successful from my experience. Even then it's still really hard... but shouldn't it be hard to begain with? I mean if fades can stop marines no problem then marines are gonna suck. Probably the best thing to do is if they send out 5 rines to set up a phase somewhere you sack their base.
Spit countering mines is absoutely worthless, not only is the gorge fat and vulerable and costs a whopping 10 res so you can what? Shoot down 3 mines that costed less than 10 shared res... It's a feature but hardly used for obvious reasons.
And whenever exigent goes into a new room to place a PG, do they immediately set up the turret farm or put down 2-3 packs of mines?
If marines have a pg outside my hive, then yes I will spit down mines because even tho I may die its still less mines for the higher upgrades to face.
Its pretty constructive, as opposed to sitting in the hive saying "well guys I have no res left so I'm going to sit here till I get 10 res for an OC or something".
The whole you deserve to lose thing is BS. If you start in pipeline and 5 marines walk into cargo hive and want to lame it up they're going to lame it up and there's not a damn thing skulks can do about it. A fade can't do jack either, not without some serious backup. Early marine game decimates early alien and if marines want to turret farm both hives it's very easy to do so before aliens get fades. No second hive = GG.
Granted it's not the best strat, not only does it make for soem freaking boring matches but if you don't control alien's res they could onos rush it and you'll not have much tech either but if your marine team is average then it's not such a problem.
Comments
It wasn't supposed to be my arguement, i'm all for nerfing these damn turrets, i was just thinking it would probebly be your argument, <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
note: I had to cut off my armor/health displays or it would be over 120kb. Anyway, notice the lack of armor or weapons upgrades, the turret farm in BOTH hives, and the time (22 minutes into the game). This game is absolutely the most boring thing ever. I bet it went on for another 10 minutes after I left (shortly after this screenshot...)
20 + 16 (assuming every single one of the turrets hits the skulk) = 36.
Skulks have 90 hp.
Take what, 6 seconds for one skulk to die?
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
20 + 16 (assuming every single one of the turrets hits the skulk) = 36.
Skulks have 90 hp.
Take what, 6 seconds for one skulk to die?
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh yeah if he teleports in there... more than likely he will get very low before he gets to the TF, and remember the first shot takes 0 time. So 4 seconds...
Why should turrets be good anyway? I seriously would be VERY happy if turrets were reduced to 2 damage, or aliens given a viable counter before hive2. Either is fine with me, although I'd prefer nerfing turrets. See screenshot <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Nobody said it had to be 8 turrets. 8 is probably too much for both OCs and turrets to be honest.
2 damage? Are you serious? Name one feasible use for turrets that take almost 50 shots to kill a single skulk. I know you want them to be worthless but that much of a nerf isn't going to happen. You should stick to suggesting their removal; it has the same chance of happening and at least it makes your intentions clear. I know where you're coming from with static defenses, but there are plenty of ways to get rid of self-preserving turret farms without just removing turrets. It's not at all unreasonable for static defense to play some role in an RTS hybrid.
If we can accept the fact that structures won't be removed(literally or effectively) from the game, we can stick to productive suggestions.
The central argument is that if you let them +use, you lost in the first place.
Every instance you've pointed out is a failure on the ALIEN SIDE.. not an overbalance on the marine side.
Here is why...
Map control. This is a necessity for pretty much every fps game i have ever played. Its simple, you keep track of the other teams movement throughout the map, control key areas/chokepoints, and cut them off from areas you dont want them to be. With turrets in Natural Selection it allows you to cover these areas without actual player presence, this is the problem. As a team you shouldn't have static defense guard an area of a map so you can control another area of the map with less effort. It removes skill, perhaps even tactic from the game. You SHOULD be punished for neglected parts of the map, this is why static defense is bad.
Remember the part where NS is an FPS/RTS hybrid? Not everything in the game has to be decided by FPS skills. Would you rather that we just get rid of turret factories and OCs altogether, and limit the RTS element exclusively to teching?
Nobody is saying that static defenses should be failproof defense of unguarded areas of the map. That doesn't mean they have no place in the game.
serious concern for a skulk, lerk or one hive gorge
a "what the heck do I need to scrape off my foot now?" for fade, 2 hive gorge, onos
IMO
If you see a lockdown happening pile into said hive and neutralise everything.
If you can't do that, pray the other hive is open.
If it not, you lose.
Thats about the core of it. Aliens shouldn't let this sort of thing happen. If aliens can quickly rush an unguarded turret hive then they can swiftly clear it and cap it. But it relies on alien teamwork.
Second, saying its a +use skill issue just makes me laugh.
20 + 16 (assuming every single one of the turrets hits the skulk) = 36.
Skulks have 90 hp.
Take what, 6 seconds for one skulk to die?
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh yeah if he teleports in there... more than likely he will get very low before he gets to the TF, and remember the first shot takes 0 time. So 4 seconds...
Why should turrets be good anyway? I seriously would be VERY happy if turrets were reduced to 2 damage, or aliens given a viable counter before hive2. Either is fine with me, although I'd prefer nerfing turrets. See screenshot <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll agree with you there. I'ld rather not nerf turrets but give a viable counter to them at hive 1... but it would have to cost res. It might already be there though... <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Fades should be able to rip through turrets with overflowing regen. Don't ya think? Four turrets (as shown in your beatuiful screanshots screenshot, *does the sticking out tongue emoticon that he would have used if the board didn't restrict the amount of emoticons per post to three*), one fade. If four turrets do 40 damage every second, and a fade heals 47 hp every 2 seconds. Now, alot of that regen goes to armor. So therefore, turrets will do 80 damage every second, and the fade will heal pretty much all of that (10 hp to health, and 37 to armor). He'll be unaffected by the turrets, and the marine support should be no problem for the fade if he knows what he's doing.
I'm still saying we should wait it out (for B5) and see what happens.
best way (as i see it) is to limit the amount of turrets for each tf. i.e the tf will only allow 3 turrets within its range to fire. OR for every turret above 3 lower rof accordingly of all turrets. OR if the amount of turrets is above 3 lower the range of all turrets in relation to the amount of turrets above 3
-raise tf cost to 15
-lower turret cost to 5
-lower base turret damage to 5
-induce a damage-per-weapon-level curve, i.e
o turret does 5 dmg at lvl0 wep
o turret does 7 dmg at lvl1 wep
o turret does 10 dmg at lvl2 wep
o turret does 15 dmg at lvl3 wep
In all instances that you’ve quoted, everything points to either a disparity of skill between the two teams, or a serious tactical error on the part of the aliens. The only other reason I can give is that there’s some difference in tactics for American and Australian servers and thus a difference in perspective, but I don’t really think that’s the case. Maybe you should try pubbing on servers when there’s no skill stack and see if your theory really holds any water whatsoever. In any instance, I don’t mind a small turret nerf...but the levels you’re suggesting (2-4 damage) are really quite ludicrous.
Fix res flow for the kharaa so that res is always at 6 player levels. In tournys, with RFK, you could get a fade at 3:30. At the moment in pubs it takes like 5 minutes minimum. Fix it at 6 player levels and we could see fades much earlier at 4-4:30 minutes. As well as hives, ocs, chambers etc etc.
I like the idea of a separate tech tree for turrets. At the very least, adds more options for marines.
Electricity zapping adrenaline, great idea too.
Also, as hive location plays such an important factor, how bout letting the first kharaa to join pick the starting hive. If he doesn't, it just reverts to random.
Another way to aid the kharaa - blank out the commander's map audio for the first 45 seconds. Commanders can listen for kharaa movement and tailor their strats to abuse the kharaa location. Disable this initially, blame it on nano-gridlock, and surprise will be the kharaa's at the start.
Ok, 1 hive aliens might have problems with turret farms, due to lack of coordination, but removing turrets from game is not a solution. They perfectly fit the concept and serve they purpose (alien delayer/ small lifeforms detterant).
I would agree with some onos boost to help eliminating problems on some pubs (speed increase?) but removing static defenses is really a nonsense. It would further limit possibilities and make game boring.
The real problem with turrets is that they are too good against unorganized teams but useless against organized ones.
Nadagast, would you please explain to me how 4 turrets + Tfac (55) res around a phase gate is better than 5 packs of mines around a phase gate? That's 20 mines, that's like enough to kill an onos. Not to mention the mines give back some res per kill and are super effective at the one hive level. And yet, you never see anyone complain about that mines are too good.
And the counter to mines (2 hives, bilebomb) is same counter for turrets.
Again, I've never seen turrets used against d chambers first work in a 2 hive situation. Get a regen fade to take out the Tfac or if there are a lot of turrets kill some of the turrets, make a hole in the turret factory and volia it's exposed to skulks.
I have seen a one hive lockdown though, and you have too. Think Pandas vs. eR (rip) back on ns_eclipse in Season 2 semi-finals. Pandas locked down comp core and then continued to keep a constant scan on mainteince hive and just worked to make sure nothing could get started there. eR focused on taking back comp core from turrets + 3 marines at a time, and lost. I wonder what would have happened had they simply left it alone and thrown up the hive at maintence. Of course this probably would not have gone well because they did the foolish mistake of putting their DC's at the Comp core vent which ended up getting sieged and screwed up eR.
The one place where I have seen turrets used outside of hives is when you are seiging, and sometimes it actually works out fairly well. You place down one or two turrets just to help hold an area while you seige.
I remember on one scrim our commander (porcha at the time) placed one turret in the middle of cargo on ns_tanith. A fade ran in, we scored 3 hits on him with a sg but he lived.... untill he was right around the courner he died from one last turret shot. Was one of the funniest things I've ever seen in a scrim and we gave the mvp to the turret that game.
But really nada, you can't complain about turrets when mines are better and faster to use.
And to everyone saying don't let the marines get a farm in the hive, it's a lot harder than it sounds. Marines vs hive 1 aliens is not a pretty sight. Skulks get absolutely mowed down by just LMG marines and fades can help but they can't stop a bunch of marines coming in and just putting up a PG then TF... by then the game is over. I've seen it happen (from the Fade's pov) way too many times.
Mines aren't better than turrets for holding an area, but they are a hell of alot faster. Using 2 packs of mines to hold a hive until a pg/tf/obs goes up is very cost effective. You may argue that shotties work better, but if your rine can'tshoot wortha **** (or somehow SCs get dropped early) then that can back fire.
As for turrets, i think the angle of fire needs to change. Unless teh room has a REALLY high roof, you can't take advantage of the blindspot ontop of the turret.
With mines however you can spam out mine packs like there's no tomorrow, and if the pg is well covered then you can take leftover mines down to the hive entrance itself.
Yes you can spit mines but that relies on you being in a position to spit them and the marines being complacent enough to ignore you spitting their mines. On base raids you can spit mines down but rines will either spawn in or bacon back to base and snuff you. If you're at a pg, you can spit mines but while you do so the pg remains unharmed. Second, if you just run and detonate them with your body then you end up in the spawn queue which can sometime make the difference between a successful phase rush and an unsuccessful one.
Thirdly, mines around a pg can be damn hard to spot, you're almost guaranteed of a skulk kill or 3. Turrets are easy to spot and in most cases easy to avoid due to a hole in coverage.
Mines, imho, are a lot cheaper, more disposable, and much more flexible.
And to everyone saying don't let the marines get a farm in the hive, it's a lot harder than it sounds. Marines vs hive 1 aliens is not a pretty sight. Skulks get absolutely mowed down by just LMG marines and fades can help but they can't stop a bunch of marines coming in and just putting up a PG then TF... by then the game is over. I've seen it happen (from the Fade's pov) way too many times. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you spam 20 mines around a PG you cannot simply avoid it because you need to get that PG down. And mines with marine backup is still really good because if the fades hit a mine then they are weaked by any shotgunner who is covering and now has one less SG shot to nail on the fade before the fade dies.
And it's possible to stop marines from putting up a phase, but you need a lerk to be successful from my experience. Even then it's still really hard... but shouldn't it be hard to begain with? I mean if fades can stop marines no problem then marines are gonna suck. Probably the best thing to do is if they send out 5 rines to set up a phase somewhere you sack their base.
Spit countering mines is absoutely worthless, not only is the gorge fat and vulerable and costs a whopping 10 res so you can what? Shoot down 3 mines that costed less than 10 shared res... It's a feature but hardly used for obvious reasons.
And whenever exigent goes into a new room to place a PG, do they immediately set up the turret farm or put down 2-3 packs of mines?
The Onos with 1 hive is useless.
Res flow for aliens in big games is way outpaced by marines.
Spawn rate totaly destroys the Aliens chance to make a big move, once half the team is dead your screwed it takes way to long to respawn.
Its pretty constructive, as opposed to sitting in the hive saying "well guys I have no res left so I'm going to sit here till I get 10 res for an OC or something".
Granted it's not the best strat, not only does it make for soem freaking boring matches but if you don't control alien's res they could onos rush it and you'll not have much tech either but if your marine team is average then it's not such a problem.