SinSpawnHarbinger of SufferingJoin Date: 2002-11-12Member: 8359Members
<!--QuoteBegin-UKchaos+Aug 17 2004, 07:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UKchaos @ Aug 17 2004, 07:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Limit turrets to 6 per area. Its rare that you actually have more than 6 anyway, but its lame if you do. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well not 6, but agreeable.
I mean OC limits are 8 in an area. So a single Turret Factory should only be able to support 8-/+ and if it over exceeds that amount they need another TF to support those other 8-/+ turrets.
- Fighting static defense isn't alot of fun, even if it can't be afforded fast enough for competitive play in a true 2 hive situation (spending ~40 res locking down a single Hive however is viable as long as it simulataneously denies access to the final Hive)
- Lack of HP overflow (fixed in B5) means that even small amounts of turrets negate high-level lifeforms regeneration
- Beta 5 will make weapon upgrades work with turrets, meaning a previously 10 turret farm will now be the equivalent of a 13 turret farm - without the extra space (BAAAAAAAD).
- Lack of any reasonable counters at Hive 1.
- Ability to build overlapping TFacs (4 TFacs cost the same as 1 elec TF - but build them along a wall and leave little blindspot, and you have an unkillable farm short of attacking the turrets themselves)
Options : - Lower turret power vs Fades, by providing the "big lifeform" half damage bonus,
- half turret damage, HP and price in one fell swoop and have a limit of 2 TFacs or even one influencing any one turret - trying to build a new one within the same radius won't be possible.
- (My personal favorite) Replace spit with Bilebomb, webs at 2 Hives (with a deploy-time to avoid combat webbing) and Babblers/Primal/WhatHaveYou on slot4. The 3 Hive ability can be pretty much anything for all anyone cares - maybe even a "Gastric Acid" (Bare with me, I'm pulling this out of my ****) attack which works like a modified Bilebomb - damage marine Armor heavily, but being ineffective against anything else. This would be pretty easy to do, just recolor the Bilebomb sprite and alter its launch and spread behavior slightly, et voila.
What hurts aliens the most is really just the lack of remotely practical counters. Even attacking the turrets themselves isn't likely to get you very far - assuming it takes you 12 seconds to kill one turret each and one Skulk dies in the process - which is pretty optimistic - Marines with only 3 resnodes (Hive1, MS, Hive2) would already have paid for that turret. Now seeing as how it'll take you longer, and more alien deaths will be inbetween and they're likely to have more resnodes - it gets pretty hard to keep up.
One of the big reasons this isn't a more popular issue is that its only widely employed in public servers, and many commanders using turrets simply are completely inept beyond that.
Turrets? You mean those things I havn't seen in months?
I can't remember when I last saw a bona-fide turret. Mines, I've seen hundreds of them. Shotguns, similarly. But honestly turrets if anything need a boost, which they're getting in Beta 5 where wpn upgrades will affect their damage.
Saltz hit the nail on the head imo. There is no reasonable counter to turrets at hive1. Lock down both hives with turrets and the aliens are screwed... it provides for horrible gameplay.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If it takes an onos to kill turrets then the turrets are too strong by RTS standards because onos are top teir, imagine how crappy starcraft would be if it took battle cruisiers to kill your basic defense in that game
Or imagine warcraft 3 if it took Tauren to kill a tower, for gods sake the game would suck terribly if it was like that <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. That is true, but it is not that extreme in NS. A Hive 1 fade wiht regen will do the trick, if he is not interupted by marines.
As Salzbad stated, the problem is that earlygame aliens have no real counter against them, exept higher lifeforms and regenereation. Skulks are too weak, especially because of electricity which eliminates the possibility of blindspots.
The actual imbalance is the fact that a single marine with enough ammo can defeat a smaller WOL without too much danger (exept he is visible on hivesight) while a single skulk has almost no chance of defeating a small turretfarm.
If aliens are smart enough, turrets aren't a colossal problem. There's nearly always a hole, and 1 skulk can take out one turret as long as no other is blattering him.
It only gets dire when the tfac is electrified (either itself or by proxy near an RT) because every turret will also hand out spark damage. Thats when you NEED a gorge.
This'll seriously change in B5, turret upgrades means that you'll have no chance mid to end game. I know some might say Aliens are meant to rule the early game and finish before the rines get midway.. but that just doesn't happen usually.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->because every turret will also hand out spark damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I may be wrong, but I think thats not correct. The turrets do not spark, its the extended range of the electrification. The electrification was desinged to extend around close structures to provide protection against sneaky skulks.
It was lower when introduced in 2.0, which lead to the infamous bonsaibases around Rts and Tfs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thats when you NEED a gorge<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait for beta 5 and regen overflowing to armor. Turret farms will be deemed almost useless. They own fades now because regen overflows, but you just have to wait a little bit, and see how it goes in beta 5.
And I command alot on pubs. I don't use turrets because their "omglame iroxoruwithstatic!11", it's because I don't trust my marines. In clan games turrets aren't used because you have competent marines that listen to you, in pubs the marines don't. Turrets don't run off and rambo, turrets don't ignore your orders, and turrets never miss. I trust turrets, I don't trust marines.
And skulks can kill turrets easy, you just need to take your time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> because every turret will also hand out spark damage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I may be wrong, but I think thats not correct. The turrets do not spark, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sigh, ok, for the pedantic, the turrets don't personally do electrify damage but since they're always near the tfac then the tfac will zap you. So attacking any turret will result in you getting the zap treatment.
I don't see bilebomb being a problem.. if you've got an elec TF/RT turret farm somewhere and the aliens are still at hive 1 then they're pretty much on the road to ruin. Its like complaining about trying to kill Onos with unupgraded weapons and you're 30 mins into the game.
Tho should it somehow happen, a skulk gorge team can dent the turret side of things if you really need to.
Nada - the weakness in the hive-lockdown in clan play is that you're not pressuring alien resources at all, and and the whole thing is dependant upon the phase.
So the aliens get an onos or two, stage a diversionary attack on one hive, sacrificing a fade or one of the onoses if necessary, to make it look real. While this is going on, the other onos (or the only onos) takes down the phase at the non-diversionary hive. Because yeah, it's really not the turrets that are the problem so much as the elec + phase, a marine with an HMG and halfway decent aim standing in the middle of mines + elec is just about untouchable.
Additionally, it's gonna take on the order of 250-300 resources to lock two hives, and those are resources you're not spending on upgrades. I'm pretty sure it's not used in clanplay because it's worse, but then, I've never been in a clan that seriously tried it. Although system shock did ok with it in omega last season.
So yeah, any team that wins with a 2-hive lockdown would probably have won anyways. Because all it amounts to is aliens failing at map control to the extent where marines can keep them out of the second hive.
Necrosis - that's not exactly how it is. Marines have the early-game deathmatching advantage, and if they can use that to deny the aliens their second hive, then they win.
At the end of the day, gameplay in ns is limited as is - doing anything to limit the possibilities doesn't seem like much fun to me.
I agree with nadagast. Iv seen this used in clan play before. On origin the commander rushed phase tech, then he had us push into vent(hive was furn) and get a phase. He then put a tf and some nicely placed turrets around vent while someone got a pg at bio. He gave out hmgs to us all and made us just defend the hives while he teched up, i think one lgmer was trying to cap some of the bio side of the map(the aliens were puting everything they had into vent and bio). It was very easy to hold vent by myself(with an hmg and turret, elect support) vs 2 fades. As the game went on the aliens had so much res they actually rushed one of the hives with like 4 onos but we killed them all with ease, then just crushed furnace hive.
I really doubt that the aliens had any fun that game, and it was very effective. Though if we took out turrets then they would need something to replace them. And as for ocs, I think the aliens need to help fend off jpers.
<!--QuoteBegin-kavasa+Aug 17 2004, 01:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ Aug 17 2004, 01:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Additionally, it's gonna take on the order of 250-300 resources to lock two hives, and those are resources you're not spending on upgrades. I'm pretty sure it's not used in clanplay because it's worse,<b> but then, I've never been in a clan that seriously tried it.</b> Although system shock did ok with it in omega last season. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> *Ahem*
<!--QuoteBegin-aonomus+Aug 17 2004, 12:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (aonomus @ Aug 17 2004, 12:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A turret farm vs a fade, turret farm wins hands down, alot of times the commander just drops as many as possible, making it hard for the fade to get in and do one swipe before losing his armor, not talking 3-5 turrets, talking 15~ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 30 res tf + 30 res elec + 150 res turrets > 50 res fade + 2 res (defense)upgrade.
If commanders waste so much res on outposts, they sure aren't getting upgrades too quickly. Locking down two hives so badly in the first few minutes that coordinated attacks by skulks and fades can't break them? Sounds like the aliens are just inept imo. Large amounts of turrets = a fade should basically rape entire squads of 3-4 marines with lvl0 lmgs, while small amounts of turrets means that the hive is <u>very</u> crackable. 3 skulks rushing into most hives can get to a single turret and chomp it down, hopefully leaving a hole in the defenses. If there's a gorge nearby healing then a coordinated team is definitely going to make a hole to chomp on that tf. I just don't see how the turrets are the problem, it's just bad teamwork on pubs, which is (part of the reason) why no clans make extensive use of turrets.
I miss the old days where the turret was a bloody cannon, but tracked very sluggishly and was inaccurate. I remember the reaction when it was changed, with the "OMG TEHY HIT LEAPIGN CELERITY SCKULKS!?" and "WTH SNIPAR TURRENTZ!".
<!--QuoteBegin-5kyh16h91+Aug 17 2004, 04:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ Aug 17 2004, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-aonomus+Aug 17 2004, 12:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (aonomus @ Aug 17 2004, 12:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A turret farm vs a fade, turret farm wins hands down, alot of times the commander just drops as many as possible, making it hard for the fade to get in and do one swipe before losing his armor, not talking 3-5 turrets, talking 15~ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 30 res tf + 30 res elec + 150 res turrets > 50 res fade + 2 res (defense)upgrade.
If commanders waste so much res on outposts, they sure aren't getting upgrades too quickly. Locking down two hives so badly in the first few minutes that coordinated attacks by skulks and fades can't break them? Sounds like the aliens are just inept imo. Large amounts of turrets = a fade should basically rape entire squads of 3-4 marines with lvl0 lmgs, while small amounts of turrets means that the hive is <u>very</u> crackable. 3 skulks rushing into most hives can get to a single turret and chomp it down, hopefully leaving a hole in the defenses. If there's a gorge nearby healing then a coordinated team is definitely going to make a hole to chomp on that tf. I just don't see how the turrets are the problem, it's just bad teamwork on pubs, which is (part of the reason) why no clans make extensive use of turrets. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lol what? First of all a TF is 10 (or 15 I can't remember). and 15 turrets? with an elec TF? that's pretty much uncrackable if there is a PG there, unless you rush it with like 4 onos... and by the time you have that the marines can easily have JPs or HA with HMGs and own the onos.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Aug 17 2004, 08:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Aug 17 2004, 08:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-5kyh16h91+Aug 17 2004, 04:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ Aug 17 2004, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-aonomus+Aug 17 2004, 12:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (aonomus @ Aug 17 2004, 12:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A turret farm vs a fade, turret farm wins hands down, alot of times the commander just drops as many as possible, making it hard for the fade to get in and do one swipe before losing his armor, not talking 3-5 turrets, talking 15~ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 30 res tf + 30 res elec + 150 res turrets > 50 res fade + 2 res (defense)upgrade.
If commanders waste so much res on outposts, they sure aren't getting upgrades too quickly. Locking down two hives so badly in the first few minutes that coordinated attacks by skulks and fades can't break them? Sounds like the aliens are just inept imo. Large amounts of turrets = a fade should basically rape entire squads of 3-4 marines with lvl0 lmgs, while small amounts of turrets means that the hive is <u>very</u> crackable. 3 skulks rushing into most hives can get to a single turret and chomp it down, hopefully leaving a hole in the defenses. If there's a gorge nearby healing then a coordinated team is definitely going to make a hole to chomp on that tf. I just don't see how the turrets are the problem, it's just bad teamwork on pubs, which is (part of the reason) why no clans make extensive use of turrets. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> lol what? First of all a TF is 10 (or 15 I can't remember). and 15 turrets? with an elec TF? that's pretty much uncrackable if there is a PG there, unless you rush it with like 4 onos... and by the time you have that the marines can easily have JPs or HA with HMGs and own the onos. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, I guess I messed up with the tf cost, in any case that's about 200 res worth spent in just defending one hive....do that in both hives and that's 400 res into defenses....and you say that the marines will have jps or ha before you have the onii/fades to crack that? What have the aliens been doing the entire frickin game? If the marines have THAT much res flowing in, they could use any strat they wanted, hell they could turret up every hallway in the entire map if they wanted (and crash the server, but that's not the point).
In short, if there are enough turrets that they pose a problem, then the REAL problem is the fact that the marines are controlling too much of the map/rts. A com that tries to turret up bases with only 2-4 rts is just wasting what little res he has; eventually his low-level marines will fall before higher-level lifeforms. Conversely, if the marines get 5-7 or more rts, they could build these massive outposts.....but they would win MUCH quicker just rushing to HA or jps. So in short, turrets in no way shape or form help the marines to win, they just help them not lose.
I haven't read the whole thread, but what's funny is the turrets are actually going to get stronger in the next release. There is a current bug in the game where the turrets don't benefit from weapon upgrades.
Aside from awkward gimmick roles how can turrets really be justified over mines in a 7v7 or less game, mines are cheaper and more effective at tier1, at tier2 neither are effective unless supported by grenades :S
though I once played a 10v10 game on veil where the marines started farming sub, holding 4 nodes for roughly 5 minutes, around which time they snuck a pg in the growing hive (pipe) and beacon-shottied it [this is the game losing mistake] the server in question has a plugin where the aliens get double res income practically, after shottying the hive the marines started also turreting this hive. (initially with 10 turrets) the marines still have sparse upgrades, which surprisingly leads to them having 2 remaining nodes a minute later (the hives) and losing their marine start base. They relocate to one of the hives and I suggest we mass onos+1/2 fade+lerk attack the other hive in the confusion before they get hmgs, this fails miserably so we settle for slowly gnawing away at their turrets, at this point we have 8 rts with a res boosting plugin, but tier1 with DCs. By the time we can reamass and try again they have HMGs and enough turrets in either hive to kill a fade in a pass-by. 50 minutes later the marines manage to push through the onos-ocs etc lamed up everywhere due to an insane excess res. The only idea we could come up with was mass-sporing due to their rts, this proved ineffective and they slowly took the map :S
quite possibly the most boring game I have ever played.
Yes, obviously in a competitive enviroment bad turret strats don't hold up too well. However even there, abusing the Hive system correctly can mean you'll only need to farm up one spot - and even that means only ~40 res in the earlygame, and another ~70-80 in a secondary TFac, some mines and extra turrets midgame.
The most popular ways to do this is to PG rush the central Hive if its not the primary - or if it is the primary, orchestrate a relocate at the peak of your ressource income and turret up the non-relocated Hive. I'll agree with anyone that says its not the easiest or most viable thing to ever pull off, but the problem with turrets vs 1 Hive is that <i>once they're there, against any level of competence you're not going to get them away</i>.
Example : 6v6 pug, ns_nancy. Teams are stacked out the wazoo, and we never get a hold of mess. Their Hive is mother, so Aux Gen to port is out too. In a lucky break, 3 guys make it through to Interface - I have them go into Subspace and relocate there, and before our old base even finishes recycling its already overrun by the standard set of 2 Fades.
Lucky for us - because that meant we were able to just sneak up a PG in Port as well (We had no A1, just phasetech, gg me), LMG the hive to death before the Fades arrive and finally force them to retreat long enough to setup a few turrets.
From there on, it was a ~35 minute game consisting entirely of expanding the Port Farm to 3 TFacs, 2 packs of mines and a bunch of turrets and taking all the nodes on the westside of the map by sheer ease of access (We respawn right next door). Using that to tech up, and the occasional beacon + PG to keep Ship Refueling, Marine Spawn and Mess Hall nodes clear, we teched up slowly but steadily to HA. With which we finally walked in and ended it. <i>Noone on our team had a positive K/D score until the end</i> (aside from me, gg turret kills).
I'll agree in that example, Aliens made a set of fatal mistakes. I will however say that turret defense with marine backup is so insanely overpowering towards Hive 1 creatures that even for its extremely significant price aliens have a hard time fighting them. And when a good opportunity to use them arises, they can both turn games and make them into a no-fun zone in the time it takes to build them.
Its beyond the reach of having only ineffective counters (like LMGs vs OCs), but to the point of having absolutely nothing to save them other than extreeeeeeeeeeme superiority over the other team.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Aug 17 2004, 08:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Aug 17 2004, 08:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-5kyh16h91+Aug 17 2004, 04:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ Aug 17 2004, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-aonomus+Aug 17 2004, 12:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (aonomus @ Aug 17 2004, 12:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A turret farm vs a fade, turret farm wins hands down, alot of times the commander just drops as many as possible, making it hard for the fade to get in and do one swipe before losing his armor, not talking 3-5 turrets, talking 15~ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 30 res tf + 30 res elec + 150 res turrets > 50 res fade + 2 res (defense)upgrade.
If commanders waste so much res on outposts, they sure aren't getting upgrades too quickly. Locking down two hives so badly in the first few minutes that coordinated attacks by skulks and fades can't break them? Sounds like the aliens are just inept imo. Large amounts of turrets = a fade should basically rape entire squads of 3-4 marines with lvl0 lmgs, while small amounts of turrets means that the hive is <u>very</u> crackable. 3 skulks rushing into most hives can get to a single turret and chomp it down, hopefully leaving a hole in the defenses. If there's a gorge nearby healing then a coordinated team is definitely going to make a hole to chomp on that tf. I just don't see how the turrets are the problem, it's just bad teamwork on pubs, which is (part of the reason) why no clans make extensive use of turrets. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> lol what? First of all a TF is 10 (or 15 I can't remember). and 15 turrets? with an elec TF? that's pretty much uncrackable if there is a PG there, unless you rush it with like 4 onos... and by the time you have that the marines can easily have JPs or HA with HMGs and own the onos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't understand the obsession with huge amounts of turrets. 40 res worth hold up until about ~6 minutes into the game, and after that about 100 res worth (8 turrets, 2 tfacs) hold up forever as long as they only have 1 Hive.
Assuming someone is there to hold your turrets anyway. But hey, even if they clusterhump the mined PG by some miracle and you have to walk back - its gonna take them a while to disable both turret factories while under fire (or all 3).
Btw. I don't know who keeps making these weird exigent avatars, but that one would probably look better with a slightly enlarged logo and a transparent background. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
wow the first pub I join today... it's about 5-8 minutes into the game and the marines have double/marine start/cargo turret farmed up on Tanith. We have Waste hive. I just quit the game because there was absolutely no point of playing, I played up until about 20 minutes when they finally got JPs, and I left at that point but I bet the game will have gone on for another 10 or so minutes because most pub marines will die with JPs to skulks. Then the comm gets HA and its game =|
FIX IT. It's skilless, retarded, imbalanced, and boring as hell. No point to leave it in.
one key element that you keep leaving out is skill. any ns player worth his bs knows that the turret farm doesnt work. in all the examples that you use, the aliens were clearly nubs cause in the time and res it takes to make 2 tf's to hold off the random couple of skulks, the aliens can have fades that can easily rape the tf's that were set up. not to mention that the marines have little or no upgrades to fend off the fades. if the marines do have upgrades and they can sustain some turret farms, then this is a obviously unbalanced match, skill-wise. i cant think of one strat that has proven to work well that has turret farms as part of the plan.
Good job not reading the thread. The points made here are :
- You don't need more than one TF for 2 out of 3 starting Hives.
- You don't need more than 40 res worth to hold off any Skulk, and not much more to hold off any Fade once theres just minimal marine support at that location.
- Theres no good reason to cement games as lost regardless of team performance because one side put down turrets
Comments
Well not 6, but agreeable.
I mean OC limits are 8 in an area.
So a single Turret Factory should only be able to support 8-/+ and if it over exceeds that amount they need another TF to support those other 8-/+ turrets.
- Fighting static defense isn't alot of fun, even if it can't be afforded fast enough for competitive play in a true 2 hive situation (spending ~40 res locking down a single Hive however is viable as long as it simulataneously denies access to the final Hive)
- Lack of HP overflow (fixed in B5) means that even small amounts of turrets negate high-level lifeforms regeneration
- Beta 5 will make weapon upgrades work with turrets, meaning a previously 10 turret farm will now be the equivalent of a 13 turret farm - without the extra space (BAAAAAAAD).
- Lack of any reasonable counters at Hive 1.
- Ability to build overlapping TFacs (4 TFacs cost the same as 1 elec TF - but build them along a wall and leave little blindspot, and you have an unkillable farm short of attacking the turrets themselves)
Options :
- Lower turret power vs Fades, by providing the "big lifeform" half damage bonus,
- half turret damage, HP and price in one fell swoop and have a limit of 2 TFacs or even one influencing any one turret - trying to build a new one within the same radius won't be possible.
- (My personal favorite) Replace spit with Bilebomb, webs at 2 Hives (with a deploy-time to avoid combat webbing) and Babblers/Primal/WhatHaveYou on slot4. The 3 Hive ability can be pretty much anything for all anyone cares - maybe even a "Gastric Acid" (Bare with me, I'm pulling this out of my ****) attack which works like a modified Bilebomb - damage marine Armor heavily, but being ineffective against anything else. This would be pretty easy to do, just recolor the Bilebomb sprite and alter its launch and spread behavior slightly, et voila.
What hurts aliens the most is really just the lack of remotely practical counters. Even attacking the turrets themselves isn't likely to get you very far - assuming it takes you 12 seconds to kill one turret each and one Skulk dies in the process - which is pretty optimistic - Marines with only 3 resnodes (Hive1, MS, Hive2) would already have paid for that turret. Now seeing as how it'll take you longer, and more alien deaths will be inbetween and they're likely to have more resnodes - it gets pretty hard to keep up.
One of the big reasons this isn't a more popular issue is that its only widely employed in public servers, and many commanders using turrets simply are completely inept beyond that.
I can't remember when I last saw a bona-fide turret. Mines, I've seen hundreds of them. Shotguns, similarly. But honestly turrets if anything need a boost, which they're getting in Beta 5 where wpn upgrades will affect their damage.
Or imagine warcraft 3 if it took Tauren to kill a tower, for gods sake the game would suck terribly if it was like that
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Yes. That is true, but it is not that extreme in NS. A Hive 1 fade wiht regen will do the trick, if he is not interupted by marines.
As Salzbad stated, the problem is that earlygame aliens have no real counter against them, exept higher lifeforms and regenereation.
Skulks are too weak, especially because of electricity which eliminates the possibility of blindspots.
The actual imbalance is the fact that a single marine with enough ammo can defeat a smaller WOL without too much danger (exept he is visible on hivesight) while a single skulk has almost no chance of defeating a small turretfarm.
It only gets dire when the tfac is electrified (either itself or by proxy near an RT) because every turret will also hand out spark damage. Thats when you NEED a gorge.
This'll seriously change in B5, turret upgrades means that you'll have no chance mid to end game. I know some might say Aliens are meant to rule the early game and finish before the rines get midway.. but that just doesn't happen usually.
I may be wrong, but I think thats not correct. The turrets do not spark, its the extended range of the electrification. The electrification was desinged to extend around close structures to provide protection against sneaky skulks.
It was lower when introduced in 2.0, which lead to the infamous bonsaibases around Rts and Tfs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thats when you NEED a gorge<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem: Bilebomb = Hive 2 ability
So you are toast in case of a lockdown.
And I command alot on pubs. I don't use turrets because their "omglame iroxoruwithstatic!11", it's because I don't trust my marines. In clan games turrets aren't used because you have competent marines that listen to you, in pubs the marines don't. Turrets don't run off and rambo, turrets don't ignore your orders, and turrets never miss. I trust turrets, I don't trust marines.
And skulks can kill turrets easy, you just need to take your time.
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because every turret will also hand out spark damage.
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I may be wrong, but I think thats not correct. The turrets do not spark,
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Sigh, ok, for the pedantic, the turrets don't personally do electrify damage but since they're always near the tfac then the tfac will zap you. So attacking any turret will result in you getting the zap treatment.
I don't see bilebomb being a problem.. if you've got an elec TF/RT turret farm somewhere and the aliens are still at hive 1 then they're pretty much on the road to ruin. Its like complaining about trying to kill Onos with unupgraded weapons and you're 30 mins into the game.
Tho should it somehow happen, a skulk gorge team can dent the turret side of things if you really need to.
So the aliens get an onos or two, stage a diversionary attack on one hive, sacrificing a fade or one of the onoses if necessary, to make it look real. While this is going on, the other onos (or the only onos) takes down the phase at the non-diversionary hive. Because yeah, it's really not the turrets that are the problem so much as the elec + phase, a marine with an HMG and halfway decent aim standing in the middle of mines + elec is just about untouchable.
Additionally, it's gonna take on the order of 250-300 resources to lock two hives, and those are resources you're not spending on upgrades. I'm pretty sure it's not used in clanplay because it's worse, but then, I've never been in a clan that seriously tried it. Although system shock did ok with it in omega last season.
So yeah, any team that wins with a 2-hive lockdown would probably have won anyways. Because all it amounts to is aliens failing at map control to the extent where marines can keep them out of the second hive.
Necrosis - that's not exactly how it is. Marines have the early-game deathmatching advantage, and if they can use that to deny the aliens their second hive, then they win.
At the end of the day, gameplay in ns is limited as is - doing anything to limit the possibilities doesn't seem like much fun to me.
I really doubt that the aliens had any fun that game, and it was very effective. Though if we took out turrets then they would need something to replace them. And as for ocs, I think the aliens need to help fend off jpers.
*Ahem*
I'm hurt.
30 res tf + 30 res elec + 150 res turrets > 50 res fade + 2 res (defense)upgrade.
If commanders waste so much res on outposts, they sure aren't getting upgrades too quickly. Locking down two hives so badly in the first few minutes that coordinated attacks by skulks and fades can't break them? Sounds like the aliens are just inept imo. Large amounts of turrets = a fade should basically rape entire squads of 3-4 marines with lvl0 lmgs, while small amounts of turrets means that the hive is <u>very</u> crackable. 3 skulks rushing into most hives can get to a single turret and chomp it down, hopefully leaving a hole in the defenses. If there's a gorge nearby healing then a coordinated team is definitely going to make a hole to chomp on that tf.
I just don't see how the turrets are the problem, it's just bad teamwork on pubs, which is (part of the reason) why no clans make extensive use of turrets.
No, I don't have any constructive input.
30 res tf + 30 res elec + 150 res turrets > 50 res fade + 2 res (defense)upgrade.
If commanders waste so much res on outposts, they sure aren't getting upgrades too quickly. Locking down two hives so badly in the first few minutes that coordinated attacks by skulks and fades can't break them? Sounds like the aliens are just inept imo. Large amounts of turrets = a fade should basically rape entire squads of 3-4 marines with lvl0 lmgs, while small amounts of turrets means that the hive is <u>very</u> crackable. 3 skulks rushing into most hives can get to a single turret and chomp it down, hopefully leaving a hole in the defenses. If there's a gorge nearby healing then a coordinated team is definitely going to make a hole to chomp on that tf.
I just don't see how the turrets are the problem, it's just bad teamwork on pubs, which is (part of the reason) why no clans make extensive use of turrets. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol what? First of all a TF is 10 (or 15 I can't remember). and 15 turrets? with an elec TF? that's pretty much uncrackable if there is a PG there, unless you rush it with like 4 onos... and by the time you have that the marines can easily have JPs or HA with HMGs and own the onos.
30 res tf + 30 res elec + 150 res turrets > 50 res fade + 2 res (defense)upgrade.
If commanders waste so much res on outposts, they sure aren't getting upgrades too quickly. Locking down two hives so badly in the first few minutes that coordinated attacks by skulks and fades can't break them? Sounds like the aliens are just inept imo. Large amounts of turrets = a fade should basically rape entire squads of 3-4 marines with lvl0 lmgs, while small amounts of turrets means that the hive is <u>very</u> crackable. 3 skulks rushing into most hives can get to a single turret and chomp it down, hopefully leaving a hole in the defenses. If there's a gorge nearby healing then a coordinated team is definitely going to make a hole to chomp on that tf.
I just don't see how the turrets are the problem, it's just bad teamwork on pubs, which is (part of the reason) why no clans make extensive use of turrets. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol what? First of all a TF is 10 (or 15 I can't remember). and 15 turrets? with an elec TF? that's pretty much uncrackable if there is a PG there, unless you rush it with like 4 onos... and by the time you have that the marines can easily have JPs or HA with HMGs and own the onos. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I guess I messed up with the tf cost, in any case that's about 200 res worth spent in just defending one hive....do that in both hives and that's 400 res into defenses....and you say that the marines will have jps or ha before you have the onii/fades to crack that? What have the aliens been doing the entire frickin game? If the marines have THAT much res flowing in, they could use any strat they wanted, hell they could turret up every hallway in the entire map if they wanted (and crash the server, but that's not the point).
In short, if there are enough turrets that they pose a problem, then the REAL problem is the fact that the marines are controlling too much of the map/rts. A com that tries to turret up bases with only 2-4 rts is just wasting what little res he has; eventually his low-level marines will fall before higher-level lifeforms. Conversely, if the marines get 5-7 or more rts, they could build these massive outposts.....but they would win MUCH quicker just rushing to HA or jps. So in short, turrets in no way shape or form help the marines to win, they just help them not lose.
though I once played a 10v10 game on veil where the marines started farming sub, holding 4 nodes for roughly 5 minutes, around which time they snuck a pg in the growing hive (pipe) and beacon-shottied it [this is the game losing mistake] the server in question has a plugin where the aliens get double res income practically, after shottying the hive the marines started also turreting this hive. (initially with 10 turrets) the marines still have sparse upgrades, which surprisingly leads to them having 2 remaining nodes a minute later (the hives) and losing their marine start base. They relocate to one of the hives and I suggest we mass onos+1/2 fade+lerk attack the other hive in the confusion before they get hmgs, this fails miserably so we settle for slowly gnawing away at their turrets, at this point we have 8 rts with a res boosting plugin, but tier1 with DCs. By the time we can reamass and try again they have HMGs and enough turrets in either hive to kill a fade in a pass-by. 50 minutes later the marines manage to push through the onos-ocs etc lamed up everywhere due to an insane excess res. The only idea we could come up with was mass-sporing due to their rts, this proved ineffective and they slowly took the map :S
quite possibly the most boring game I have ever played.
1) decrease PG hitpoints, OR make it so that a marine can phase through only once every 2 seconds like the new TFC teleporters
2) somehow make the gorge more resistant to grenades
The most popular ways to do this is to PG rush the central Hive if its not the primary - or if it is the primary, orchestrate a relocate at the peak of your ressource income and turret up the non-relocated Hive. I'll agree with anyone that says its not the easiest or most viable thing to ever pull off, but the problem with turrets vs 1 Hive is that <i>once they're there, against any level of competence you're not going to get them away</i>.
Example :
6v6 pug, ns_nancy. Teams are stacked out the wazoo, and we never get a hold of mess. Their Hive is mother, so Aux Gen to port is out too. In a lucky break, 3 guys make it through to Interface - I have them go into Subspace and relocate there, and before our old base even finishes recycling its already overrun by the standard set of 2 Fades.
Lucky for us - because that meant we were able to just sneak up a PG in Port as well (We had no A1, just phasetech, gg me), LMG the hive to death before the Fades arrive and finally force them to retreat long enough to setup a few turrets.
From there on, it was a ~35 minute game consisting entirely of expanding the Port Farm to 3 TFacs, 2 packs of mines and a bunch of turrets and taking all the nodes on the westside of the map by sheer ease of access (We respawn right next door). Using that to tech up, and the occasional beacon + PG to keep Ship Refueling, Marine Spawn and Mess Hall nodes clear, we teched up slowly but steadily to HA. With which we finally walked in and ended it. <i>Noone on our team had a positive K/D score until the end</i> (aside from me, gg turret kills).
I'll agree in that example, Aliens made a set of fatal mistakes. I will however say that turret defense with marine backup is so insanely overpowering towards Hive 1 creatures that even for its extremely significant price aliens have a hard time fighting them. And when a good opportunity to use them arises, they can both turn games and make them into a no-fun zone in the time it takes to build them.
Its beyond the reach of having only ineffective counters (like LMGs vs OCs), but to the point of having absolutely nothing to save them other than extreeeeeeeeeeme superiority over the other team.
30 res tf + 30 res elec + 150 res turrets > 50 res fade + 2 res (defense)upgrade.
If commanders waste so much res on outposts, they sure aren't getting upgrades too quickly. Locking down two hives so badly in the first few minutes that coordinated attacks by skulks and fades can't break them? Sounds like the aliens are just inept imo. Large amounts of turrets = a fade should basically rape entire squads of 3-4 marines with lvl0 lmgs, while small amounts of turrets means that the hive is <u>very</u> crackable. 3 skulks rushing into most hives can get to a single turret and chomp it down, hopefully leaving a hole in the defenses. If there's a gorge nearby healing then a coordinated team is definitely going to make a hole to chomp on that tf.
I just don't see how the turrets are the problem, it's just bad teamwork on pubs, which is (part of the reason) why no clans make extensive use of turrets. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol what? First of all a TF is 10 (or 15 I can't remember). and 15 turrets? with an elec TF? that's pretty much uncrackable if there is a PG there, unless you rush it with like 4 onos... and by the time you have that the marines can easily have JPs or HA with HMGs and own the onos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't understand the obsession with huge amounts of turrets. 40 res worth hold up until about ~6 minutes into the game, and after that about 100 res worth (8 turrets, 2 tfacs) hold up forever as long as they only have 1 Hive.
Assuming someone is there to hold your turrets anyway. But hey, even if they clusterhump the mined PG by some miracle and you have to walk back - its gonna take them a while to disable both turret factories while under fire (or all 3).
Btw. I don't know who keeps making these weird exigent avatars, but that one would probably look better with a slightly enlarged logo and a transparent background. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
FIX IT. It's skilless, retarded, imbalanced, and boring as hell. No point to leave it in.
- You don't need more than one TF for 2 out of 3 starting Hives.
- You don't need more than 40 res worth to hold off any Skulk, and not much more to hold off any Fade once theres just minimal marine support at that location.
- Theres no good reason to cement games as lost regardless of team performance because one side put down turrets