NolSinklerOn the ClorfJoin Date: 2004-02-15Member: 26560Members, Constellation
Lol...this has 13000+ views now.
The general discussion guidelines have 9000+ views,
This topic was created today.
That topic was created over 2 years ago <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Publicity here we come! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah - if Valve doesn't get off it's collective arse and fix this there will be *hell* to pay.
There's more than 14,000 views now. And no wonder Flayra doesn't post anywhere. He makes one post, and the next 10 posts are devoted to the fact that he posted.
wow, this is amazing. theory and psycology in the hl engine world... pretty in depth those valve ppl created dont ya think...
anyways, couldnt you do something with reserving slots so no one can join that last slot? if it is the last slot, i may have missed something in there...
but hl2 will prolly be out before this bug will be fixed. heck we may even see the day of duke nukem forever...
<!--QuoteBegin-i'm lost+Jul 26 2004, 02:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Jul 26 2004, 02:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's more than 14,000 views now. And no wonder Flayra doesn't post anywhere. He makes one post, and the next 10 posts are devoted to the fact that he posted. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's because he never posts.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Jul 25 2004, 11:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jul 25 2004, 11:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-i'm lost+Jul 26 2004, 02:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Jul 26 2004, 02:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's more than 14,000 views now. And no wonder Flayra doesn't post anywhere. He makes one post, and the next 10 posts are devoted to the fact that he posted. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's because he never posts. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you sure about that? Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
<!--QuoteBegin-i'm lost+Jul 26 2004, 01:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Jul 26 2004, 01:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And no wonder Flayra doesn't post anywhere. He makes one post, and the next 10 posts are devoted to the fact that he posted. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Amazing, just you reminding me that Flayra posted has caused me to swoon.
<!--QuoteBegin-TyrNemesis^+Jul 25 2004, 03:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TyrNemesis^ @ Jul 25 2004, 03:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just a little extra technical information to help people understand this a tad better.
When you start an <i><b>n</i></b>-player server, entity IDs 1-<i><b>n</i></b> are reserved to represent connected players. It is for this reason that you cannot change the max players after the server has been started.
When you type status in your console, you see a list of the players' names, along with other info such as their SteamID, time connected, ping, loss, etc. The first bit of information shown, before the player's name, is the player's entity index (The reserved entity number which is referring to that player.) See attached screenshot.
Regardless of how many slots a server claims to have, there is a "true" number of slots which will never be exceeded because ONLY <i><b>n</i></b> entities are reserved for players. It is impossible to have <i><b>n</i></b>+1 players connected.
What I am uncertain of, however, is with a server that displays a certain number of slots, are ALL PLAYERS >= that number "bugged", or only the player with the entindex <i><b>n</i></b>?
The community would be useful in helping us discover this bit of information. Normally, the way I reproduce the PSHB is to create a 2-player HLDS and have two players connect that are NOT on a local area network with the server. Have the bugged player (verify with status) become a Fade with Celerity, Carapace, and 3 hives. (This makes him move faster, and gives him sufficient health to take many hits without stopping to be healed.) Have the fade strafe back and forth in front of a long wall while the other player, as a marine, aims an HMG directly at the fade's model and fires at it as he moves. The fade should take very little or no damage! For control purposes, repeat the process with the non-bugged player as the fade. He should take normal damage.
Let us know what you find out! Is it only player #<i><b>n</i></b> that is bugged, or are all players between <i><b>x</i></b> (max visible slots) and <i><b>n</i></b> bugged?
Thanks in advance.
*edit: The current prevailing speculation among we exterminators is that the lag compensation code parses players in the entindex with a for loop which terminates one player too soon, as posted earlier in the thread, with a < maxplayers instead of the necessary <= maxplayers. As a result, only the last player is failed in the loop. This may be clientside code, and if it is, servers which tell the player that they have <i><b>x</i></b> slots might cause players between <i><b>x</i></b> and <i><b>n</i></b> to be bugged as well. I await your test info, people. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->* <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Tyr is refering to servers that will allow res slotters to join past a "fake" number of slots until the "real" limit is reached. So from the server browser, you can see a server with players: 22/18. I believe that [OldF] PJ uses this system. I think that #n of players is still 22 and therefore the bug wouldn't happen with the last 5, but I'm just guessing. I'll see if I can test it.
BTW, good job finding this bug guys! I hope valve doesn't ignore this.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sancho+Jul 26 2004, 04:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sancho @ Jul 26 2004, 04:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Tyr is refering to servers that will allow res slotters to join past a "fake" number of slots until the "real" limit is reached. So from the server browser, you can see a server with players: 22/18. I believe that [OldF] PJ uses this system. I think that #n of players is still 22 and therefore the bug wouldn't happen with the last 5, but I'm just guessing. I'll see if I can test it.
BTW, good job finding this bug guys! I hope valve doesn't ignore this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's just sv_visiblemaxplayers being set to any number, it has no impact on the accessible slots. You can still connect to the server through your console as well with "connect xx.xx.xx.xx:Port".
You can even set sv_visiblemaxplayers to 100 and the player list will appear as 22/100, but the real limit will always be "maxplayers". Other than that, it's just a visual effect.
Some people get all !! OMG !! about flayra. some people get giddy. thats just sad. and the fact that flayra isnt already hired by VALVe just shows how irrisponsible they are, why do you think they're gonna fix this???
<!--QuoteBegin-Sancho+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sancho)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, so no need to test then?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope...
If a server has "maxplayers" set to 22 and then sets "sv_visiblemaxplayers" to 20, the bugged slot will still be #22. "sv_visiblemaxplayers" has no effect on the code to get the max players.
Besides, the temporary fixes use "sv_visiblemaxplayers" to hide the bugged slot and to "tell" the clients (via their server list) that the slot cannot be used.
<!--QuoteBegin-i'm lost+Jul 26 2004, 02:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Jul 26 2004, 02:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Jul 25 2004, 11:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jul 25 2004, 11:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-i'm lost+Jul 26 2004, 02:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Jul 26 2004, 02:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's more than 14,000 views now. And no wonder Flayra doesn't post anywhere. He makes one post, and the next 10 posts are devoted to the fact that he posted. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's because he never posts. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you sure about that? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Chicken, because he never posts. This was the first time in 6 months -imagine that from the game author himself. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~20.000 views now. Just proves that SOMEONE has been screwing in the PR-side, people wanting to know WTH is going on this eagerly. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There are still a few people that are skeptical about their servers having Pshb because they have a reserved slot system that has an extra slot hidden from the server list.. is there anything that can be said to explain the problem is still there?
Im a little fuzzy on this myself, after all doesnt the fix for this bug do just that.. make a slot no1 is to enter?
But i know for a fact the 20th player on our LoC server is very much bugged but we have a hidden slot thus 21 slots theoretically. thus the argument..
A player can still get the <u>ID</u> #21 on that server.
Example:
Server is full (20/20, but in fact 20/21). Someone connects through console to the server and he is then kicked because that slot is "reserved". Then someone leaves the server (19/20). The guy who attempted to connect through console decides to join in. His ID will be #21, but not #20, because once a player is connected to a server, he will be assigned an ID which will persist even if he disconnects and then connects after that. The only exception is if another player is assigned his ID before he joins the server back.
But the point is that <u>there is not a single reserved slot</u> plugin available that will "block" the bugged slot. Only the PSBH fixes released will work.
Here are the links, again and again: AMX: <a href='http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=660' target='_blank'>http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=660</a>
Simply "hiding" the bugged slot will especially not work.
Saraph has done an awesome document with all the details that we've put together concerning the reproduction and the temporary fix of the bug, even though we've found further details after its creation. It includes an explanation of the ID system for people who don't understand it. Here's the link to the thread: <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=70356' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=70356</a>
if no one has posted this yet, <a href='http://www.summerblue.net/games/cs_report/6_2_deflection.html' target='_blank'>this</a> might be the pshb in an early version of cs
<!--QuoteBegin-Waldo+Jul 26 2004, 04:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Waldo @ Jul 26 2004, 04:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Interesting green - I also saw this on the Day of Defeat forums. I'll be sure and bug a few people on this.
It is important to realise though that the old HL1 based games are basically legacy and on a bit of lifesupport, given HL2/Source based games will be the norm at some point.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What a Valve employee had to say about the bug. Yay.
*EDIT* here's where it was posted on the Steam forums: <a href='http://www.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110121&highlight=hitbox' target='_blank'>http://www.steampowered.com/forums/showthr...ighlight=hitbox</a>
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-ccnncc99+Jul 26 2004, 10:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ccnncc99 @ Jul 26 2004, 10:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if no one has posted this yet, <a href='http://www.summerblue.net/games/cs_report/6_2_deflection.html' target='_blank'>this</a> might be the pshb in an early version of cs <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> no
I can say I have experienced this in both NS, and TFC. Just as a side note, the thing that amazes me the most, is that you guys read long posts, the TFC community gave up on that 2 years back. Plus, there are no "idiot" posts, from "idiot" people. Thanks for the information, and yes, a big thumbs up to the patient people who tracked it down.
wow. I didnt know this effected ALL of HL/steam. could this fix work on cs servers too? or would it need new/diffrent codeing? (better get to work crab! we got 30 + servers to fix! hehehe)
Here is a movie of it in CS posted in a <a href='http://www.gotfrag.com' target='_blank'>www.gotfrag.com</a> news post:
[url]www.teamzex.com/rector/roflecl.avi [/url]
Things to note: The guys name pops up in front of the model then disappears. He's cal-i, he dosen't miss as you can see. If this isn't this bug, it is another serious bug.
This is getting big <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As so many people have said before me, good work NS community! (And of course the people that did more than the rest of the communiuty, I'm too lazy to get specific names).
It makes me feel good top be part (although a very inactive part) of the wonderous NS community!
I noticed this back in CS 1.3 with flips movie (The kid with the scout), He was always headshoting people 4 feet infront of where they really were.
I always claimed this as a lag bug... Nice work <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
The general discussion guidelines have 9000+ views,
This topic was created today.
That topic was created over 2 years ago <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Publicity here we come!
Publicity here we come! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah - if Valve doesn't get off it's collective arse and fix this there will be *hell* to pay.
Anyway, great job finding the bug.
anyways, couldnt you do something with reserving slots so no one can join that last slot?
if it is the last slot, i may have missed something in there...
but hl2 will prolly be out before this bug will be fixed. heck we may even see the day of duke nukem forever...
That's because he never posts.
That's because he never posts. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you sure about that? Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amazing, just you reminding me that Flayra posted has caused me to swoon.
When you start an <i><b>n</i></b>-player server, entity IDs 1-<i><b>n</i></b> are reserved to represent connected players. It is for this reason that you cannot change the max players after the server has been started.
When you type status in your console, you see a list of the players' names, along with other info such as their SteamID, time connected, ping, loss, etc. The first bit of information shown, before the player's name, is the player's entity index (The reserved entity number which is referring to that player.) See attached screenshot.
Regardless of how many slots a server claims to have, there is a "true" number of slots which will never be exceeded because ONLY <i><b>n</i></b> entities are reserved for players. It is impossible to have <i><b>n</i></b>+1 players connected.
What I am uncertain of, however, is with a server that displays a certain number of slots, are ALL PLAYERS >= that number "bugged", or only the player with the entindex <i><b>n</i></b>?
The community would be useful in helping us discover this bit of information. Normally, the way I reproduce the PSHB is to create a 2-player HLDS and have two players connect that are NOT on a local area network with the server. Have the bugged player (verify with status) become a Fade with Celerity, Carapace, and 3 hives. (This makes him move faster, and gives him sufficient health to take many hits without stopping to be healed.) Have the fade strafe back and forth in front of a long wall while the other player, as a marine, aims an HMG directly at the fade's model and fires at it as he moves. The fade should take very little or no damage! For control purposes, repeat the process with the non-bugged player as the fade. He should take normal damage.
Let us know what you find out! Is it only player #<i><b>n</i></b> that is bugged, or are all players between <i><b>x</i></b> (max visible slots) and <i><b>n</i></b> bugged?
Thanks in advance.
*edit: The current prevailing speculation among we exterminators is that the lag compensation code parses players in the entindex with a for loop which terminates one player too soon, as posted earlier in the thread, with a < maxplayers instead of the necessary <= maxplayers. As a result, only the last player is failed in the loop. This may be clientside code, and if it is, servers which tell the player that they have <i><b>x</i></b> slots might cause players between <i><b>x</i></b> and <i><b>n</i></b> to be bugged as well. I await your test info, people. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->* <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tyr is refering to servers that will allow res slotters to join past a "fake" number of slots until the "real" limit is reached. So from the server browser, you can see a server with players: 22/18. I believe that [OldF] PJ uses this system. I think that #n of players is still 22 and therefore the bug wouldn't happen with the last 5, but I'm just guessing. I'll see if I can test it.
BTW, good job finding this bug guys! I hope valve doesn't ignore this.
BTW, good job finding this bug guys! I hope valve doesn't ignore this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's just sv_visiblemaxplayers being set to any number, it has no impact on the accessible slots. You can still connect to the server through your console as well with "connect xx.xx.xx.xx:Port".
You can even set sv_visiblemaxplayers to 100 and the player list will appear as 22/100, but the real limit will always be "maxplayers". Other than that, it's just a visual effect.
Some people get all !! OMG !! about flayra. some people get giddy. thats just sad. and the fact that flayra isnt already hired by VALVe just shows how irrisponsible they are, why do you think they're gonna fix this???
Nope...
If a server has "maxplayers" set to 22 and then sets "sv_visiblemaxplayers" to 20, the bugged slot will still be #22. "sv_visiblemaxplayers" has no effect on the code to get the max players.
Besides, the temporary fixes use "sv_visiblemaxplayers" to hide the bugged slot and to "tell" the clients (via their server list) that the slot cannot be used.
That's because he never posts. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you sure about that? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Chicken, because he never posts. This was the first time in 6 months -imagine that from the game author himself. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~20.000 views now. Just proves that SOMEONE has been screwing in the PR-side, people wanting to know WTH is going on this eagerly. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Im a little fuzzy on this myself, after all doesnt the fix for this bug do just that.. make a slot no1 is to enter?
But i know for a fact the 20th player on our LoC server is very much bugged but we have a hidden slot thus 21 slots theoretically. thus the argument..
Example:
Server is full (20/20, but in fact 20/21). Someone connects through console to the server and he is then kicked because that slot is "reserved". Then someone leaves the server (19/20). The guy who attempted to connect through console decides to join in. His ID will be #21, but not #20, because once a player is connected to a server, he will be assigned an ID which will persist even if he disconnects and then connects after that. The only exception is if another player is assigned his ID before he joins the server back.
But the point is that <u>there is not a single reserved slot</u> plugin available that will "block" the bugged slot. Only the PSBH fixes released will work.
Here are the links, again and again:
AMX:
<a href='http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=660' target='_blank'>http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=660</a>
MetaMod:
<a href='http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=661' target='_blank'>http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=661</a>
Simply "hiding" the bugged slot will especially not work.
Saraph has done an awesome document with all the details that we've put together concerning the reproduction and the temporary fix of the bug, even though we've found further details after its creation. It includes an explanation of the ID system for people who don't understand it. Here's the link to the thread:
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=70356' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=70356</a>
It is important to realise though that the old HL1 based games are basically legacy and on a bit of lifesupport, given HL2/Source based games will be the norm at some point.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What a Valve employee had to say about the bug. Yay.
*EDIT* here's where it was posted on the Steam forums: <a href='http://www.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110121&highlight=hitbox' target='_blank'>http://www.steampowered.com/forums/showthr...ighlight=hitbox</a>
no
I am genuinely impressed.
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> MoM
[url]www.teamzex.com/rector/roflecl.avi [/url]
Things to note:
The guys name pops up in front of the model then disappears.
He's cal-i, he dosen't miss as you can see.
If this isn't this bug, it is another serious bug.
This is getting big <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It makes me feel good top be part (although a very inactive part) of the wonderous NS community!
Great Job, and add me to the list of people that say thank you.
I always claimed this as a lag bug... Nice work <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->