<!--QuoteBegin-BOBDOLOL+May 11 2004, 11:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BOBDOLOL @ May 11 2004, 11:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So being a good skulk shouldn't actually require skills? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's right BOBDOLOL, skulking should require no skill at all, after all it is the first default lifeform so it's the first alien that newbies encounter. I also think light armor/lmg marines should have default aimbots to make them more newbie-friendly. </sarcasm>
it has a spread though <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-BOBDOLOL+May 11 2004, 12:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BOBDOLOL @ May 11 2004, 12:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it has a spread though <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> use a pistol <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And samah...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm quite happy for others to get the speed advantage. But just because someone can't bhop doesn't give them the right to deny it from others who can.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm quite happy for others to get the speed advantage. But just because someone can bhop doesn't give them the right to deny it from others who can't.
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+May 11 2004, 06:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ May 11 2004, 06:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm quite happy for others to get the speed advantage. But just because someone can bhop doesn't give them the right to deny it from others who can't. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Erm.. when did I ever say that people who can't bhop should be denied? Putting anti-bhop code in denies everyone from doing it. At present, there's absolutely nothing stopping anyone from learning it, so I don't see just what's being denied here.
Bunny hopping doesn't give you godly skills but it does reduce the amount of time that a marine can shoot you before you can bite him. What this amounts to is:
1) An ambush is just as good if pulled off correctly. 2) BHOP increases the range at which you can charge marines down from.
I started bhopping fairly recently and at first thought it was pretty crap, but when you start to see the speed gains you'll realise that it is a powerful advantage if used properly. Regarding the debate about whether it is fair or not, come on we've had this 1000 times already and it's staying <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As far as the games appeal goes, Trev has a point. While its not that hard to get down and start putting practice into it once you get your research done, its extremely discouraging for outsiders and lowers the games appeal drastically.
I don't see what direct harm there is in making everyone jump/run at the same speed either. Its a boost aliens need - and while it would remove the "depth" of the tedium involved in good bhopping on all official maps, it would again add a whole bread of depth to terrain-usage for Skulks instead (ie they'd have their new speed on walls too).
About the "skill" involved in bhop : if anything , bhop reduces the amount of skill needed to perform well as a skulk.
If you look at the older (back in 1.04) threads about bullet dodging , they mentionned lots of different methods : zig zag , wall crawling , spiralling , feign movement... now all we have is bhop. I hardly ever see a skulk on walls or ceilings nowadays...
Bunnyhopping should be replaced by some sort of wall jumping , a more intuitive skill to learn.
If you're bhopping to "dodge" then you either know the rine can't aim too much, or you don't know what the term Bhop means.
Killing a bhopping skulk is no different from killing any other skulk charging you- You shoot it, it dies. If a skulk charged you, then you pretty much deserve to die.
<!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+May 11 2004, 08:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ May 11 2004, 08:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As far as the games appeal goes, Trev has a point. While its not that hard to get down and start putting practice into it once you get your research done, its extremely discouraging for outsiders and lowers the games appeal drastically.
I don't see what direct harm there is in making everyone jump/run at the same speed either. Its a boost aliens need - and while it would remove the "depth" of the tedium involved in good bhopping on all official maps, it would again add a whole bread of depth to terrain-usage for Skulks instead (ie they'd have their new speed on walls too).
*shrug* <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is the only valid argument against bunnyhopping.
The fact is that you can't learn it by yourself, ie aiming or dodging, but instead it requires a sequence of rather unnatural key strokes and mouse movements. I think if Flayra includes it in the manual or references to it sometimes in the game, then bunnyhopping will be more accepted as well as improve gameplay by giving players something more to strive for.
<!--QuoteBegin-Haterade+May 12 2004, 01:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Haterade @ May 12 2004, 01:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it never feels like im going much faster. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then you're not doing it right. Just do a search in the forums, there's like at least 10-20 threads on bunnyhopping, including pointers and links on how to do it properly. I think there almost needs to be a subforum in Kharaa Strategy for bhop <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Samah+May 11 2004, 04:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Samah @ May 11 2004, 04:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+May 11 2004, 06:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ May 11 2004, 06:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm quite happy for others to get the speed advantage. But just because someone can bhop doesn't give them the right to deny it from others who can't. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Erm.. when did I ever say that people who can't bhop should be denied? <b>Putting anti-bhop code in denies everyone from doing it.</b> At present, there's absolutely nothing stopping anyone from learning it, so I don't see just what's being denied here. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> wrong... If taken out a speed boost will be given to all aliens classes to make up for it. You can still jump up and down like an idiot while you run (i believe flayra had something worked out to prevent Bhopping without slowing you down ala CS), but everyone gets the speed buff.
Let me try to make this as simple as possible... group A knows how to bunny hop, group B does not. Currently Group A is the only group that gets the speed advantage. notice... group B is not getting any advantage... i believe this is where you are having difficulty understanding. Group B is slow... group A is fast.
Now... Bhopping (or just it's benefit) is taken out... a general speed buff is given to all classes. Group A <b><i>AND</b></i> B are both now fast... not only making the game easier to balance, but decreasing the gap of ability between group A and B.
So where does "skill" benefit you? Ambushing, building stratigy, Chamber order, When do Advanced aliens hit the field, when are hives built, what resource towers are built and held, what marine towers you kill first, and stopping marine expansion. those all require skill and in-depth knowledge of the game, so dont say that Bunnyhopping is the only thing seperating the vets from the newbies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me try to make this as simple as possible... group A knows how to <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><b>aim</b></span>, group B does not. Currently Group A is the only group that gets the <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><b>shooting</b></span> advantage. notice... group B is not getting any advantage... i believe this is where you are having difficulty understanding. Group B is <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><b>missing its targets</b></span>... group A <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><b>hits them</b></span>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its interchangable!
OMG That is sooooo weird.
<sarcasim>I mean I think we should have AUTO AIM too! I am sick of people allways fragging me <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--></sarcasim>
Bob the Alien, why don't you stop using that analogy? It's pointless.
Guess what? Bunny hopping is really only used by a minority, while when you are a marine, YOU ALWAYS SHOOT NO MATTER WHAT! I mean, for the marines, the equivalent is giving some sort of FUBARED button combination to make bullets more accurate. The fact is, bunnyhopping is esoteric info while shooting is intuitive.
Perhaps if you had to do a 15 button combination to shoot your gun, i could see where your going, but you dont... you simply press the left mouse button (or whatever you crazy people bind your +attack to <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) and you shoot.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Currently Group A is the only group that gets the <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><b>shooting</b></span> advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There isn't a way to "shoot faster" or "Shoot Harder" by exploiting a flaw in the physics of the game. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think that perhaps if BHopping is included in the manual then a BHOP key should be bindable (3jump scrips, or just keep jumping as long as you push it) so that all these 'tricks' you learn to BHop better are not as beneficial. If you know the general form of how to do a BHop, and somone else is at the same level, the other guy should not be doing better because he is using some script.
Half the reason I bhop is for the air control, and the ability to make yourself harder to hit, not for the speed. Hell I can wall strafe, floor hug, strafe jump, etc. to get speed boosts if I want. Bhopping DOES leave you somewhat vulnerable as you aren't always aiming at the marine. If you are a smart marine, you can easily dodge a bhopper, and suddenly they're at a disadvantage because they're constantly trying to keep track of which way they're facing. Strafe jump out the way of a bhopper and fill them with lmg bullets. Also, once a marine gets a shotgun, bhopping only helps to make you harder to hit. Speed? Bah! Most of the time smart marines won't even fire the shotgun until the skulk is almost upon them so that all the pellets hit.
I agree that the group A/group B *aiming* analogy is a bit far-fetched... But again I stress the point that bhop is just a style of play. One of my mates is the best skulker I know (with or without leap), and he's one hard sl*t to hit. And he doesn't know how to bhop (and doesn't want to learn).
The only way to remove bhopping properly would be to kill air control, and boy would leap suck then.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+May 12 2004, 06:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ May 12 2004, 06:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Trevelyan, I mean, aiming is intuitive, but bunny hopping is just an exploit known to few. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> you posted while i was typing, my post was in response to the one above yours.
air control doesn't have to be killed... its air SPEED.
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+May 13 2004, 11:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ May 13 2004, 11:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->air control doesn't have to be killed... its air SPEED.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it's air control. It's the movement control you have in midair which allows you to bhop. If you can't control your midair movement, you can't bhop properly. Even if midair speed was capped, you could still bhop, it would just be nerfed somewhat. As has been mentioned on these forums multiple times already, once you hit the ground you get slowed back down to a maximum of 1.7x movement speed anyway, so reducing air speed will do nothing but make leap less effective. If you REALLY want to kill bunnyhopping, remove/reduce the air control. Mind you this would also stop leaping around corners, which of course reduces the skulk's maneuverability somewhat - you'd have to leap, stop, turn, leap again, etc. Suddenly you have 0 energy and get shafted by a lone marine who can shoot as fast as he wants.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sarisel+May 13 2004, 12:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sarisel @ May 13 2004, 12:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if you remove the "air control" you are talking about, the fade will only be able to blink straight =\ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed you are correct <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> The Fade will have no chance to survive and will have to make his time <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<edit> sc0rpians could still h0var though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> (note the leetspeak conversion to evade censorship on scorpion and hover) </edit>
I love when skulks bunnyhop straight at me, not even bothering to do something unpredictable(like turn twice in the same jump or using forward and strafe simultaneously and turning an extra 45 degrees so it's difficult to see what direction they are going by just looking at orientation), you can track them so well just moving predictably from side to side, even ankle biters are worse unless the run in a straight line.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, it's air control. It's the movement control you have in midair which allows you to bhop. If you can't control your midair movement, you can't bhop properly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You *can* remove forward airacceleration that allows bunnyhopping without reducing or even while increasing aircontroll. Even a nub like me can do it, all you need to do is go look at pm_airaccelerate in pm_shared.c and renormalize the horisontal player speed to whatever it was before you entered the function and voila, you can be stopped by objects, turn however you wish, airbrake and all that but no bh unless you manage to reach that speed by other means(e.g. leap, blink). Now obviously I don't have NS source so that was just the HLDM source in the HLSDK but I can't imagine there being more of a difference than dealing with several different classes as special cases(e.g. the same rules don't apply to lerks).
In this version of the Half-Life engine SDK, the MOD authors now have control over all player movement physics behavior. This allows interesting physics tweaks for MODs as well as allowing the creation of new physics types ( e.g., allowing various spectator modes ) which can be shared between the game server and client code.
The source files for the player physics code may be found in the pm_shared/ directory. Note that the files in the shared folder are shared between both the client and game .dll. You should also note that some of the headers are referenced in the engine, so care should be taken not to alter important data structures in those files. To alter player physics, one simply changes the appropriate code in the pm_shared/ directory ( most likely in pm_shared.c ) and recompiles the client .dll and the game .dll. Both of those projects reference the same source file so prediction errors are unlikely to occur – so long as you remember to compile both projects if you make physics changes.
All player movements ( either predicted on the client or actual on the server ) occur by the engine invoking PM_PlayerMove ( found in pm_shared.c ) called via PM_Move(). </span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if (pmove->dead) return; if (pmove->waterjumptime) return;
// Cap speed //wishspd = VectorNormalize (pmove->wishveloc);
if (wishspd > 30) wishspd = 30; // Determine veer amount currentspeed = DotProduct (pmove->velocity, wishdir); // See how much to add addspeed = wishspd - currentspeed; // If not adding any, done. if (addspeed <= 0) return; // Determine acceleration speed after acceleration
accelspeed = accel * wishspeed * pmove->frametime * pmove->friction; // Cap it if (accelspeed > addspeed) accelspeed = addspeed;
Now, being a nub, I decided not to get to understand the code very well, and just check what the horisontal speed was at the beginning of the function, renormalize it at the end and be done with it. A little fiddling with the compiler to actually get it running and voila it worked, didn't appear to break anything, not jumping up on boxes from a stand stil not nothing... It was remarkably easy, a few hours and not having read a tutorial or even worked with the HLSDK.
(some off the names and comments in the SDK just crack me up, I mean void PM_PreventMegaBunnyJumping( void ), // HACK HACK HACK, // Bubble sort, yuck, but this only occurs at startup and it's only 512 elements...
<!--QuoteBegin-Keyser59+May 11 2004, 10:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Keyser59 @ May 11 2004, 10:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+May 11 2004, 08:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ May 11 2004, 08:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As far as the games appeal goes, Trev has a point. While its not that hard to get down and start putting practice into it once you get your research done, its extremely discouraging for outsiders and lowers the games appeal drastically.
I don't see what direct harm there is in making everyone jump/run at the same speed either. Its a boost aliens need - and while it would remove the "depth" of the tedium involved in good bhopping on all official maps, it would again add a whole bread of depth to terrain-usage for Skulks instead (ie they'd have their new speed on walls too).
*shrug* <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is the only valid argument against bunnyhopping.
The fact is that you can't learn it by yourself, ie aiming or dodging, but instead it requires a sequence of rather unnatural key strokes and mouse movements. I think if Flayra includes it in the manual or references to it sometimes in the game, then bunnyhopping will be more accepted as well as improve gameplay by giving players something more to strive for. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If he'd make it more intuitive in the process, I'd agree. Lets just for a moment take a look at the steps necessary to BHop as a Skulk :
Glide to 400+ for starting speed (+forward, +move[side], turn mouse to [side], +jump) Start a BHop (+[opside], turn mouse to [opside], +crouch, +jump - continue until you somehow lose momentum again)
Oh, and don't forget to either force90 FOV or aim downwards 20-30 degrees as a Skulk, otherwise you'll never speed up like others without ever knowing the reason.
If you put THAT in the manual, my honest oppinion is you'll just turn people off. Not many people older than 15 want <b>this</b> much twitchgaming - a combination of just basic reflex and mostly situational awareness is whats popular, not a keyboard version of Dance Dance Revolution.
When you look at it rationally, removing BH doesn't remove 'skill' - it changes the type of skills required. And the type of skills required to play well should be reasonably popular and/or fun, otherwise the game simply is not fun.
Just make it an alternate, harder to control Jump for Alien lifeforms or something thats documented in the manual. Currently I have to agree with the posters in this thread that bunnyhopping is highly unappealing (and personally I'm over the big hump of learning it, I'd just like more good players to not be turned off by NS).
As people have said, removing the gain to horizontal airspeed is a piece of cake. So aside for elitism I have yet to here a good argument for keeping it in its current form :/
Well , bunnyhop doesnt kill marines, its usefull for going from point a - b, usefull to kill aimless marines, and usefull to set up ambushes faster. But i still doesnt understand why there are ppl, that said that it should be removed, that its unfair to the marines, or simple newbies that the only thing they do is to bh infront of three marines because they feel forced to learn how to bh. In another post some guy was saying that bunnyhop should be removed because it will ruin the pubs play. Its just something you need to learn or its something that is there and you learn it if you want¿?
Someone said that aliens are supposed to ambush, not to bunnyhop directly infront of 3 marines. He said that that wasnt ns. I just dont know, but well , going to read the 10 new daily post about bunnyhopping in the newplayers forums. cu
Comments
That's right BOBDOLOL, skulking should require no skill at all, after all it is the first default lifeform so it's the first alien that newbies encounter. I also think light armor/lmg marines should have default aimbots to make them more newbie-friendly.
</sarcasm>
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
use a pistol <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And samah...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm quite happy for others to get the speed advantage. But just because someone can't bhop doesn't give them the right to deny it from others who can.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm quite happy for others to get the speed advantage. But just because someone can bhop doesn't give them the right to deny it from others who can't.
Erm.. when did I ever say that people who can't bhop should be denied?
Putting anti-bhop code in denies everyone from doing it.
At present, there's absolutely nothing stopping anyone from learning it, so I don't see just what's being denied here.
1) An ambush is just as good if pulled off correctly.
2) BHOP increases the range at which you can charge marines down from.
I started bhopping fairly recently and at first thought it was pretty crap, but when you start to see the speed gains you'll realise that it is a powerful advantage if used properly. Regarding the debate about whether it is fair or not, come on we've had this 1000 times already and it's staying <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Meto
I don't see what direct harm there is in making everyone jump/run at the same speed either. Its a boost aliens need - and while it would remove the "depth" of the tedium involved in good bhopping on all official maps, it would again add a whole bread of depth to terrain-usage for Skulks instead (ie they'd have their new speed on walls too).
*shrug*
If you look at the older (back in 1.04) threads about bullet dodging , they mentionned lots of different methods : zig zag , wall crawling , spiralling , feign movement... now all we have is bhop. I hardly ever see a skulk on walls or ceilings nowadays...
Bunnyhopping should be replaced by some sort of wall jumping , a more intuitive skill to learn.
Killing a bhopping skulk is no different from killing any other skulk charging you- You shoot it, it dies. If a skulk charged you, then you pretty much deserve to die.
I don't see what direct harm there is in making everyone jump/run at the same speed either. Its a boost aliens need - and while it would remove the "depth" of the tedium involved in good bhopping on all official maps, it would again add a whole bread of depth to terrain-usage for Skulks instead (ie they'd have their new speed on walls too).
*shrug* <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the only valid argument against bunnyhopping.
The fact is that you can't learn it by yourself, ie aiming or dodging, but instead it requires a sequence of rather unnatural key strokes and mouse movements. I think if Flayra includes it in the manual or references to it sometimes in the game, then bunnyhopping will be more accepted as well as improve gameplay by giving players something more to strive for.
Then you're not doing it right.
Just do a search in the forums, there's like at least 10-20 threads on bunnyhopping, including pointers and links on how to do it properly.
I think there almost needs to be a subforum in Kharaa Strategy for bhop <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Erm.. when did I ever say that people who can't bhop should be denied?
<b>Putting anti-bhop code in denies everyone from doing it.</b>
At present, there's absolutely nothing stopping anyone from learning it, so I don't see just what's being denied here. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
wrong... If taken out a speed boost will be given to all aliens classes to make up for it. You can still jump up and down like an idiot while you run (i believe flayra had something worked out to prevent Bhopping without slowing you down ala CS), but everyone gets the speed buff.
Let me try to make this as simple as possible... group A knows how to bunny hop, group B does not. Currently Group A is the only group that gets the speed advantage. notice... group B is not getting any advantage... i believe this is where you are having difficulty understanding. Group B is slow... group A is fast.
Now... Bhopping (or just it's benefit) is taken out... a general speed buff is given to all classes. Group A <b><i>AND</b></i> B are both now fast... not only making the game easier to balance, but decreasing the gap of ability between group A and B.
So where does "skill" benefit you? Ambushing, building stratigy, Chamber order, When do Advanced aliens hit the field, when are hives built, what resource towers are built and held, what marine towers you kill first, and stopping marine expansion. those all require skill and in-depth knowledge of the game, so dont say that Bunnyhopping is the only thing seperating the vets from the newbies.
Its interchangable!
OMG That is sooooo weird.
<sarcasim>I mean I think we should have AUTO AIM too! I am sick of people allways fragging me <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--></sarcasim>
Guess what? Bunny hopping is really only used by a minority, while when you are a marine, YOU ALWAYS SHOOT NO MATTER WHAT! I mean, for the marines, the equivalent is giving some sort of FUBARED button combination to make bullets more accurate. The fact is, bunnyhopping is esoteric info while shooting is intuitive.
You suck.
Perhaps if you had to do a 15 button combination to shoot your gun, i could see where your going, but you dont... you simply press the left mouse button (or whatever you crazy people bind your +attack to <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) and you shoot.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Currently Group A is the only group that gets the <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><b>shooting</b></span> advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There isn't a way to "shoot faster" or "Shoot Harder" by exploiting a flaw in the physics of the game. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyway, just my $.02
If you are a smart marine, you can easily dodge a bhopper, and suddenly they're at a disadvantage because they're constantly trying to keep track of which way they're facing. Strafe jump out the way of a bhopper and fill them with lmg bullets.
Also, once a marine gets a shotgun, bhopping only helps to make you harder to hit. Speed? Bah! Most of the time smart marines won't even fire the shotgun until the skulk is almost upon them so that all the pellets hit.
I agree that the group A/group B *aiming* analogy is a bit far-fetched...
But again I stress the point that bhop is just a style of play. One of my mates is the best skulker I know (with or without leap), and he's one hard sl*t to hit. And he doesn't know how to bhop (and doesn't want to learn).
The only way to remove bhopping properly would be to kill air control, and boy would leap suck then.
you posted while i was typing, my post was in response to the one above yours.
air control doesn't have to be killed... its air SPEED.
No, it's air control.
It's the movement control you have in midair which allows you to bhop. If you can't control your midair movement, you can't bhop properly. Even if midair speed was capped, you could still bhop, it would just be nerfed somewhat. As has been mentioned on these forums multiple times already, once you hit the ground you get slowed back down to a maximum of 1.7x movement speed anyway, so reducing air speed will do nothing but make leap less effective.
If you REALLY want to kill bunnyhopping, remove/reduce the air control. Mind you this would also stop leaping around corners, which of course reduces the skulk's maneuverability somewhat - you'd have to leap, stop, turn, leap again, etc. Suddenly you have 0 energy and get shafted by a lone marine who can shoot as fast as he wants.
Just out of curiosity Trevelyan, can you bhop?
Indeed you are correct <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The Fade will have no chance to survive and will have to make his time <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<edit>
sc0rpians could still h0var though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(note the leetspeak conversion to evade censorship on scorpion and hover)
</edit>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, it's air control.
It's the movement control you have in midair which allows you to bhop. If you can't control your midair movement, you can't bhop properly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You *can* remove forward airacceleration that allows bunnyhopping without reducing or even while increasing aircontroll. Even a nub like me can do it, all you need to do is go look at pm_airaccelerate in pm_shared.c and renormalize the horisontal player speed to whatever it was before you entered the function and voila, you can be stopped by objects, turn however you wish, airbrake and all that but no bh unless you manage to reach that speed by other means(e.g. leap, blink). Now obviously I don't have NS source so that was just the HLDM source in the HLSDK but I can't imagine there being more of a difference than dealing with several different classes as special cases(e.g. the same rules don't apply to lerks).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>HL SDK 2.3
Player Physics System
In this version of the Half-Life engine SDK, the MOD authors now have control over all player movement physics behavior. This allows interesting physics tweaks for MODs as well as allowing the creation of new physics types ( e.g., allowing various spectator modes ) which can be shared between the game server and client code.
The source files for the player physics code may be found in the pm_shared/ directory. Note that the files in the shared folder are shared between both the client and game .dll. You should also note that some of the headers are referenced in the engine, so care should be taken not to alter important data structures in those files. To alter player physics, one simply changes the appropriate code in the pm_shared/ directory ( most likely in pm_shared.c ) and recompiles the client .dll and the game .dll. Both of those projects reference the same source file so prediction errors are unlikely to occur – so long as you remember to compile both projects if you make physics changes.
All player movements ( either predicted on the client or actual on the server ) occur by the engine invoking PM_PlayerMove ( found in pm_shared.c ) called via PM_Move().
</span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's the relevant function:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>
void PM_AirAccelerate (vec3_t wishdir, float wishspeed, float accel)
{
int i;
float addspeed, accelspeed, currentspeed, wishspd = wishspeed;
if (pmove->dead)
return;
if (pmove->waterjumptime)
return;
// Cap speed
//wishspd = VectorNormalize (pmove->wishveloc);
if (wishspd > 30)
wishspd = 30;
// Determine veer amount
currentspeed = DotProduct (pmove->velocity, wishdir);
// See how much to add
addspeed = wishspd - currentspeed;
// If not adding any, done.
if (addspeed <= 0)
return;
// Determine acceleration speed after acceleration
accelspeed = accel * wishspeed * pmove->frametime * pmove->friction;
// Cap it
if (accelspeed > addspeed)
accelspeed = addspeed;
// Adjust pmove vel.
for (i=0 ; i<3 ; i++)
{
pmove->velocity[i] += accelspeed*wishdir[i];
}
}</span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now, being a nub, I decided not to get to understand the code very well, and just check what the horisontal speed was at the beginning of the function, renormalize it at the end and be done with it. A little fiddling with the compiler to actually get it running and voila it worked, didn't appear to break anything, not jumping up on boxes from a stand stil not nothing... It was remarkably easy, a few hours and not having read a tutorial or even worked with the HLSDK.
(some off the names and comments in the SDK just crack me up, I mean
void PM_PreventMegaBunnyJumping( void ),
// HACK HACK HACK,
// Bubble sort, yuck, but this only occurs at startup and it's only 512 elements...
Bwhahahaha <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
I don't see what direct harm there is in making everyone jump/run at the same speed either. Its a boost aliens need - and while it would remove the "depth" of the tedium involved in good bhopping on all official maps, it would again add a whole bread of depth to terrain-usage for Skulks instead (ie they'd have their new speed on walls too).
*shrug* <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the only valid argument against bunnyhopping.
The fact is that you can't learn it by yourself, ie aiming or dodging, but instead it requires a sequence of rather unnatural key strokes and mouse movements. I think if Flayra includes it in the manual or references to it sometimes in the game, then bunnyhopping will be more accepted as well as improve gameplay by giving players something more to strive for. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If he'd make it more intuitive in the process, I'd agree. Lets just for a moment take a look at the steps necessary to BHop as a Skulk :
Glide to 400+ for starting speed (+forward, +move[side], turn mouse to [side], +jump)
Start a BHop (+[opside], turn mouse to [opside], +crouch, +jump - continue until you somehow lose momentum again)
Oh, and don't forget to either force90 FOV or aim downwards 20-30 degrees as a Skulk, otherwise you'll never speed up like others without ever knowing the reason.
If you put THAT in the manual, my honest oppinion is you'll just turn people off. Not many people older than 15 want <b>this</b> much twitchgaming - a combination of just basic reflex and mostly situational awareness is whats popular, not a keyboard version of Dance Dance Revolution.
When you look at it rationally, removing BH doesn't remove 'skill' - it changes the type of skills required. And the type of skills required to play well should be reasonably popular and/or fun, otherwise the game simply is not fun.
Just make it an alternate, harder to control Jump for Alien lifeforms or something thats documented in the manual. Currently I have to agree with the posters in this thread that bunnyhopping is highly unappealing (and personally I'm over the big hump of learning it, I'd just like more good players to not be turned off by NS).
As people have said, removing the gain to horizontal airspeed is a piece of cake. So aside for elitism I have yet to here a good argument for keeping it in its current form :/
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ROFL
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Someone said that aliens are supposed to ambush, not to bunnyhop directly infront of 3 marines. He said that that wasnt ns. I just dont know, but well , going to read the 10 new daily post about bunnyhopping in the newplayers forums. cu