Aliens tromp around the map, gorge drops DC's aliens kill marines blah blah, secon hive goes up blah blah, fades, blah, onos, blah MC, blah blah blah...
seems a tad recognisable eh?
Example B :
gorge drops SC, Aliens like "wth? no way, sc?" leet-pubber : "guys guys, just roll with it, utalize it" Aliens : "fine ****"
couple gorges drop RT's and SC's around map, and spots marines (due to SoF) heading to a hive, he informs his teamates and they procede to sneak in, (with cloak) and start butchering the dropped TF/RT and marines. focus aliens can do whatever they want. Gorge puts up hive, and does gorge stuff <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> . Fades go up the same time as the second hivedoes, somone drops DC, fades get SoF/Focus and Regen/Cara/redem? or what have you. aliens rip marines apart, etc etc. win for aliens, and marines get aq nice little Rapage.
Simple Simple Simple answer, tough to execute without a solid team sometimes though...
With Motion Tracking researched marines tend to have more confidence and advance at a more solid rate, with the quick expansion the base becomes less and less guarded, so with a solid group of fades or skulks (and maybe an onos if you have one) hit their Observatory.
The observatory is just about the weakest structure, one or two skulks will take it out in no time, and one skulk can take it out easy if the base is unguarded.
No observatory, no motion tracking (at least in the previous beta patches, I haven't played 4 yet).
Also, if they beacon the team back all the outposts become unguarded, therefore easy to take down as well.
If they research it right away, that means they didn't research something else (phase gates or armour) and that means the rines are pretty vulnerable.
Observatory is usually the first structure I take, even before the IPs sometimes, largely because it buys you time and prevents research on MT or Phase Gates until they rebuild it.
Hit the Obv. Easy to take down, and mucho advantages if you do.
If you go sensory, you HAVE to put up a big sensory network and get ALL (90%-100%) of the RT's cloaked. It's a team effort, going sensory requires knowledge and communication. Also, going sensory means that almost all higher lifeforms are USELESS until the second hive, so you should spend that res on the sensory network and RT's.
Wanted to add about the ambushing aspect, again teamplay becomes crucial.
Have one bait, and have a few fades or skulks wait in hiding, and use the chuckle ability.
Guarantee that any rine who hears that chuckle will point in that direction right away, leaving an angle open.
Another way is to ambush around defense chambers. Sometimes the motion tracking will track structures as well, causing much confusion for any marine dependent on it. Plus, the defense chamber will buy you that extra healing that will allow you to take out that rine (since he probably doesn't have armour if they researched MT right away).
If you don't have Defense then with other chambers have nice angles to use as well. Scent of fear would be my ideal choice if Sense is up, its a great counter since its basically the aliens equivalent. He sees you, you see him, just use skill or bait to out maneuver him.
If you have Movement chambers down, then celerity may help, but the best bet in my opinion is to hold them back as much as possible and save for fades.
If you don't have enough chambers down yet, that means theres a gorg somewhere probably laying down a ton of offense chambers. This is where baiting comes in handy. Use chuckle to get the rine chasing, and since he has MT he'll be following you, just hide around the corner and above near the offense chambers and when he runs after you, tracking that blip, he'll get hit a few times by the o chambers. Double back and hit the already weakened marine who's probably jumping away from the o chambers and he'll be dead in no time.
In the end, it does come down to skill. A solid alien can use the motion tracking to his advantage by tricking rines into a trap (baiting) or by thinning out the protection of key areas . Especially early on.
Hope this helps.
Edit: Someone posted about vents, which is a GREAT piece of advice. Vents are aliens best advantages when it comes to the map design. The only time it really helps the rines are when they have jetpacks, which is late game. The rest of the time, the marines are forced to play defensively around vents (welding them shut or keeping their guns pointed at them running by) while aliens use them almost exclusively for offense. Learn the vents. They are your friend.
Four countering MT the commander only needs to build to obs, not reaserch mt tracking, only 2 obs, and SCANNING!!, at least thats what my comm does, if sc, he builds another obs, and keep nealry the whole map scanned
i assure U aliens simply doesnt know how to react, btw he makes armor 2 first, then wpn 1, so the fades..... die cant kill us with focus
Note on how MT can pick you up. Looking around while staying in one spot WILL NOT have MT pick you up. It's only if you accidently (or purposely) move that it picks you up. If you are cloaked and moving (holding SHIFT key as default for walk) MT also won't pick you up.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ballisto+Apr 16 2004, 11:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ballisto @ Apr 16 2004, 11:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How do you guys continue to ambush even when motion tracking is up? Is it possible to be stealthy? Walking just doesn't work... your mobility goes kerplunk. Mt removes the alien's biggest strength (stealth and ambush). Walking removes another big strength, mobility.
So what do you guys do? How do you cheat the system? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the command is: cl_forwardspeed 1000
Walking now is faster
If you already did that, and still complain...A marine can only see in a 90 degree angle, the other 270 are black zones. Use circling motions to attack their rear. A secondary tip which requires nerves of steel, is to actually sneak right up front of the marine, in his field of view. Because once the marines get MT, they loose some of their perceptiveness.
Im not saying it will work all of the time, but its better than nothing...
EDIT: The reason DCs are so useful is primarily because its the only chamber which allows ou to close the distance between you and the enemy, and live. Sure, silence and celerity works fine as well, but the effects of regen or carapce on the higher lifeforms are not replacable. Sensories provide no real combat benefit, as far as marines have a lvl 1 armour upgrade. This means that a sealed hive cant be retaken without really heavy gear, such as carapace onos etc.' Surviving as expensive upgrades is another important thing , which saves res.
Plus, the shotgun and MT easily removes benefits from all upgrades but the solid ones.
MC telport ability is countered by phases and turrets, obs decloak sensories. DCs heal hives, and provide forward outposts that makes your fighting power much greater.
Simply put, the upgrades are more solid, and more versatile, while the DC itself is alot better and the marine side has no really effective counters(dont come say weaponupgrades)
Motion tracking lets marine see MOVING aliens through WALLS in their field of vision. It does not blip moving aliens THAT ARE NOT BEHIND WALLS in their field of vision. Also, marines (while possessing the ability to spin around, check for blips, and spinning back to the front) do not have eyes in the back of their head.
There are many things you can do when the Marines have MT, even if you are a skulk.
#1. Make the Marines paranoid. Fake 'em out. Hide above exits and move about. Now they know you're there. Chuckle a bit and WALK!! along the ceiling to some place else. Marine gets up the nerve to dash in and empties some bullets into the ceiling.. where you aren't. He's scanning the room because he thinks he's missed something. He did. <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
#2. If you have Sensory, use it. Cloaking hides you from a marine's line of sight. MT lets marines see beyond their line of sight, through walls. If you're in a room with an SC, and the marine is there with you.. you can hop as much as you want, dance around, chuckle.. you won't blip, and the sensory chamber keeps you from decloaking.
(Rant: Motion Tracking foils Movement more than it does Sensory. MT does very little vs. Sensory, actually. When you're running through a hallway and into a marine-filled room, they hear you coming. With Movement, you get Silence.. and they don't. If they have Movement, they SEE you coming. Every chance at surprise you had is now lost unless you're coming from the ceiling / behind, which is still a good tactic [marines can't see behind them.. and if they can't hear you, why would they turn around?]. With Sensory, you can atleast run up to the doorway, stop, and walk in. Marine has no idea what you're doing. This works even better if you run up to the top of the doorway, then walk down. This gives the Marine the impression that you're hiding there in wait. )
#3. As listed in the rant above, attack from the rear. It's just like playing before MT. Marine hears you coming, but he doesn't SEE you coming. If you walk up, even better.
#4. Make yourself hidden in plain sight. You only get blipped if there is a some form of solid obstacle (railings don't count) between you and the Marine, just like Parasiting / Scent of Fear. If you can hide yourself in a shadow (ns_bast, Refinery for instance), behind some hanging moss (ns_eclipse, Comp Core. I've parakilled Heavies repeatedly from the same spot with Adren.), or high on the ceiling (ns_nothing, Viaduct), there is a good chance you can move about without blipping. Of course, you'll make noise.. unless you walk. And if you walk, you won't blip in the first place.
#5. Don't rush! If you're walking to avoid blipping, only move in one direction at a time. Do not strafe until you're at a complete halt. If you're moving forward and strafing, you will occasionally blip. Also, try to turn slowly while walking, and if you're EXTRA careful, stop before you turn. There's a rumor that turning quickly will blip you. I'm not sure if I believe it, but I've seen some strange things.
#6. Rush! Screw planning. Blitzkreig. Aliens set up alot of ambushes. Marines know this. Marines are cautious. They crouch low and get out their pistol, ready to pop you when you slip down to parasite or get a good look. Just run in there before they know what's going on. Run with buddies. They can't shoot down four of you.. can they? (Try running in one after the other and branching off. Moving in a big cluster allows each bullet to have a better chance of striking you. If the marine is concentrated on one skulk (as he should be) then the other three will have no problem. Take one for the team, man!)
#7. Destroy the source. Obs are one of my favorite structures on any team. When I'm a Marine, I bother Commanders to drop them near nodes and TFs while we siege. The Observatory is the tallest marine structure and also one of the cheapest. Standing on top of one of these suckers gives you immunity to Onos stomp. You may think this is a detriment to the alien team, but height is also an advantage for them! You can cling to an Observatory's side, up near the top, and munch on the dish without being elec'd if it is anything less than RIGHT UP ON THAT @#$%ING NODE. Their build order is important, too. As skinny as the Obs is, there is often little room near the TF after the CC, Arms Lab, two IPs, and Armory is nestled up close. Suffice it to say, most Obs aren't a trouble, electrified or not, as long as the place isn't turret farmed. You can probably hit the Obs and take it down with two turrets firing on you provided you don't get zapped once.
#8. Hope that I'm on your team. Sensory Nets, anyone? Not a spot on the map that isn't covered by a Sensory Chamber. Bwahaha.
<!--QuoteBegin-FCC+Apr 17 2004, 12:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FCC @ Apr 17 2004, 12:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And what happens if the marine team researches Motion Tracking within the first two minutes? I've personally never seen any two minutes Fades before, and I'm pretty sure they are quite rare. Basically, there is not much you can do to counter motion tracking. You'll have to actually rush the marines and work way more as a team.
I also find it stupid how there is a "Don't research Motion Tracking" thread in the Marine forum. Motion Tracking is one of the best, if the not the best upgrade in the game for marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i fade in 2:45 in clan games usually.
plus gestate time or including??? 2:45 is not common but once in awhile I'm able to do that in pubs. The best I have ever done was a have getting put up at 2:30 inlcuding gestating and travel time.
I'm a lazy boy so I haven't read most of the posts, but the one thing I can suggest is constant movement. The mt circle updates at intervals and not in real time, so if your always moving the marines don't know exactly where you are.
For instance if you want to ambush a door way, keep moving up and down the wall say to the left of the door. When the marine comes through he won't know if your up or down, giving you the chance of a vital extra second.
basiclly, when u got 2 guys, use another to your advantage, get him to go the other way, and he'll be bait, u wait and then when the rines go chasing after him, or just let their gaurd down attack.
Also, travling far places in fast times, using CTRL, thatll throw them off a lot, as they dont see u moving down, just 1 blip here, and another there the second later, ur somewher else really far away, creates and illusion.
As of early fades work very well... i got a minute and a hlaf fade before, against nub rines, but that was luck, took out 9 rines in 40 seconds into the game, and another 3 and then gestated into fade, but it was ****, cus only hit and run worked, as of large groups can take u down easy when u have only lvl 1 upgrade early in the game.
Comments
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
example A :
Aliens tromp around the map, gorge drops DC's aliens kill marines blah blah, secon hive goes up blah blah, fades, blah, onos, blah MC, blah blah blah...
seems a tad recognisable eh?
Example B :
gorge drops SC,
Aliens like "wth? no way, sc?"
leet-pubber : "guys guys, just roll with it, utalize it"
Aliens : "fine ****"
couple gorges drop RT's and SC's around map, and spots marines (due to SoF) heading to a hive, he informs his teamates and they procede to sneak in, (with cloak) and start butchering the dropped TF/RT and marines. focus aliens can do whatever they want. Gorge puts up hive, and does gorge stuff <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> . Fades go up the same time as the second hivedoes, somone drops DC, fades get SoF/Focus and Regen/Cara/redem? or what have you. aliens rip marines apart, etc etc. win for aliens, and marines get aq nice little Rapage.
With Motion Tracking researched marines tend to have more confidence and advance at a more solid rate, with the quick expansion the base becomes less and less guarded, so with a solid group of fades or skulks (and maybe an onos if you have one) hit their Observatory.
The observatory is just about the weakest structure, one or two skulks will take it out in no time, and one skulk can take it out easy if the base is unguarded.
No observatory, no motion tracking (at least in the previous beta patches, I haven't played 4 yet).
Also, if they beacon the team back all the outposts become unguarded, therefore easy to take down as well.
If they research it right away, that means they didn't research something else (phase gates or armour) and that means the rines are pretty vulnerable.
Observatory is usually the first structure I take, even before the IPs sometimes, largely because it buys you time and prevents research on MT or Phase Gates until they rebuild it.
Hit the Obv. Easy to take down, and mucho advantages if you do.
knowledge > skill
Have one bait, and have a few fades or skulks wait in hiding, and use the chuckle ability.
Guarantee that any rine who hears that chuckle will point in that direction right away, leaving an angle open.
Another way is to ambush around defense chambers. Sometimes the motion tracking will track structures as well, causing much confusion for any marine dependent on it. Plus, the defense chamber will buy you that extra healing that will allow you to take out that rine (since he probably doesn't have armour if they researched MT right away).
If you don't have Defense then with other chambers have nice angles to use as well. Scent of fear would be my ideal choice if Sense is up, its a great counter since its basically the aliens equivalent. He sees you, you see him, just use skill or bait to out maneuver him.
If you have Movement chambers down, then celerity may help, but the best bet in my opinion is to hold them back as much as possible and save for fades.
If you don't have enough chambers down yet, that means theres a gorg somewhere probably laying down a ton of offense chambers. This is where baiting comes in handy. Use chuckle to get the rine chasing, and since he has MT he'll be following you, just hide around the corner and above near the offense chambers and when he runs after you, tracking that blip, he'll get hit a few times by the o chambers. Double back and hit the already weakened marine who's probably jumping away from the o chambers and he'll be dead in no time.
In the end, it does come down to skill. A solid alien can use the motion tracking to his advantage by tricking rines into a trap (baiting) or by thinning out the protection of key areas . Especially early on.
Hope this helps.
Edit: Someone posted about vents, which is a GREAT piece of advice. Vents are aliens best advantages when it comes to the map design. The only time it really helps the rines are when they have jetpacks, which is late game. The rest of the time, the marines are forced to play defensively around vents (welding them shut or keeping their guns pointed at them running by) while aliens use them almost exclusively for offense. Learn the vents. They are your friend.
i assure U aliens simply doesnt know how to react, btw he makes armor 2 first, then wpn 1, so the fades..... die cant kill us with focus
But only when sc is set up as first chamber
hope you get enought res for a hive in 5 min, cause after that chances are you won't get it.
So what do you guys do? How do you cheat the system? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the command is: cl_forwardspeed 1000
Walking now is faster
If you already did that, and still complain...A marine can only see in a 90 degree angle, the other 270 are black zones. Use circling motions to attack their rear.
A secondary tip which requires nerves of steel, is to actually sneak right up front of the marine, in his field of view. Because once the marines get MT, they loose some of their perceptiveness.
Im not saying it will work all of the time, but its better than nothing...
EDIT:
The reason DCs are so useful is primarily because its the only chamber which allows ou to close the distance between you and the enemy, and live.
Sure, silence and celerity works fine as well, but the effects of regen or carapce on the higher lifeforms are not replacable.
Sensories provide no real combat benefit, as far as marines have a lvl 1 armour upgrade. This means that a sealed hive cant be retaken without really heavy gear, such as carapace onos etc.'
Surviving as expensive upgrades is another important thing , which saves res.
Plus, the shotgun and MT easily removes benefits from all upgrades but the solid ones.
MC telport ability is countered by phases and turrets, obs decloak sensories. DCs heal hives, and provide forward outposts that makes your fighting power much greater.
Simply put, the upgrades are more solid, and more versatile, while the DC itself is alot better and the marine side has no really effective counters(dont come say weaponupgrades)
There are many things you can do when the Marines have MT, even if you are a skulk.
#1. Make the Marines paranoid.
Fake 'em out. Hide above exits and move about. Now they know you're there. Chuckle a bit and WALK!! along the ceiling to some place else. Marine gets up the nerve to dash in and empties some bullets into the ceiling.. where you aren't. He's scanning the room because he thinks he's missed something.
He did. <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
#2. If you have Sensory, use it.
Cloaking hides you from a marine's line of sight. MT lets marines see beyond their line of sight, through walls. If you're in a room with an SC, and the marine is there with you.. you can hop as much as you want, dance around, chuckle.. you won't blip, and the sensory chamber keeps you from decloaking.
(Rant: Motion Tracking foils Movement more than it does Sensory. MT does very little vs. Sensory, actually. When you're running through a hallway and into a marine-filled room, they hear you coming. With Movement, you get Silence.. and they don't. If they have Movement, they SEE you coming. Every chance at surprise you had is now lost unless you're coming from the ceiling / behind, which is still a good tactic [marines can't see behind them.. and if they can't hear you, why would they turn around?]. With Sensory, you can atleast run up to the doorway, stop, and walk in. Marine has no idea what you're doing. This works even better if you run up to the top of the doorway, then walk down. This gives the Marine the impression that you're hiding there in wait. )
#3. As listed in the rant above, attack from the rear.
It's just like playing before MT. Marine hears you coming, but he doesn't SEE you coming. If you walk up, even better.
#4. Make yourself hidden in plain sight.
You only get blipped if there is a some form of solid obstacle (railings don't count) between you and the Marine, just like Parasiting / Scent of Fear. If you can hide yourself in a shadow (ns_bast, Refinery for instance), behind some hanging moss (ns_eclipse, Comp Core. I've parakilled Heavies repeatedly from the same spot with Adren.), or high on the ceiling (ns_nothing, Viaduct), there is a good chance you can move about without blipping. Of course, you'll make noise.. unless you walk. And if you walk, you won't blip in the first place.
#5. Don't rush!
If you're walking to avoid blipping, only move in one direction at a time. Do not strafe until you're at a complete halt. If you're moving forward and strafing, you will occasionally blip. Also, try to turn slowly while walking, and if you're EXTRA careful, stop before you turn. There's a rumor that turning quickly will blip you. I'm not sure if I believe it, but I've seen some strange things.
#6. Rush!
Screw planning. Blitzkreig. Aliens set up alot of ambushes. Marines know this. Marines are cautious. They crouch low and get out their pistol, ready to pop you when you slip down to parasite or get a good look. Just run in there before they know what's going on. Run with buddies. They can't shoot down four of you.. can they? (Try running in one after the other and branching off. Moving in a big cluster allows each bullet to have a better chance of striking you. If the marine is concentrated on one skulk (as he should be) then the other three will have no problem. Take one for the team, man!)
#7. Destroy the source.
Obs are one of my favorite structures on any team. When I'm a Marine, I bother Commanders to drop them near nodes and TFs while we siege. The Observatory is the tallest marine structure and also one of the cheapest. Standing on top of one of these suckers gives you immunity to Onos stomp. You may think this is a detriment to the alien team, but height is also an advantage for them! You can cling to an Observatory's side, up near the top, and munch on the dish without being elec'd if it is anything less than RIGHT UP ON THAT @#$%ING NODE. Their build order is important, too. As skinny as the Obs is, there is often little room near the TF after the CC, Arms Lab, two IPs, and Armory is nestled up close. Suffice it to say, most Obs aren't a trouble, electrified or not, as long as the place isn't turret farmed. You can probably hit the Obs and take it down with two turrets firing on you provided you don't get zapped once.
#8. Hope that I'm on your team.
Sensory Nets, anyone? Not a spot on the map that isn't covered by a Sensory Chamber. Bwahaha.
I also find it stupid how there is a "Don't research Motion Tracking" thread in the Marine forum. Motion Tracking is one of the best, if the not the best upgrade in the game for marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i fade in 2:45 in clan games usually.
For instance if you want to ambush a door way, keep moving up and down the wall say to the left of the door. When the marine comes through he won't know if your up or down, giving you the chance of a vital extra second.
Also, travling far places in fast times, using CTRL, thatll throw them off a lot, as they dont see u moving down, just 1 blip here, and another there the second later, ur somewher else really far away, creates and illusion.
As of early fades work very well...
i got a minute and a hlaf fade before, against nub rines, but that was luck, took out 9 rines in 40 seconds into the game, and another 3 and then gestated into fade, but it was ****, cus only hit and run worked, as of large groups can take u down easy when u have only lvl 1 upgrade early in the game.