Dynamic Cone of Fire
Rasulis
Join Date: 2003-01-29 Member: 12910Members
Join Date: 2003-01-29 Member: 12910Members
I did a search and couldn't find a post where this has been discussed so I thought I'd bring it up to see what the community thought. I know initially the response to this is probably going to be negative since NS has never had this but I think it's worth discussing.
What if the NS team put in a dynamic cone of fire for marines in NS2? If you don't know what I'm talking about, it's very common in most First Person Shooters. it's when the accuracy of your weapon worsens based on actions. If you run it gets worse or if you unload a full clip without stopping to adjust for recoil. This is a complete change from the original NS aiming system which has a static cone of fire based on the weapon.
I think there is a lot more positives to this then negatives. It will make the team combat look more real and immersing. It will encourage marines to be more careful and take their time when entering vulnerable rooms and areas. It will make crouching much more useful, other then just hiding, well reducing back hopping and bunny hopping. It will also make walking more useful other then just silencing marines. It will help average out benefits of weapons by making the pistol not always completely dead accurate and making the HMG not a snot firing machine you can't aim past your nose. It will add more skill to aiming because you'd have to get use to adjusting for the recoil and knowing when to burst fire, single shot, or spray. You can make a secondary fire that's a scope or rail site increasing accuracy of the gun. There are a lot more to this.
the negatives are less static aiming, not being able to be as effective when jumping and shooting, possibility of making marines unbalanced in combat, the possibility of making some guns to strong or effective, and I'm sure there are more I can't think of.
Before you cry, "It will be CS with aliens." No it won't. the game play is drastically different and the similarities are shared by all FPS games. Might as well say NS is like Unreal Tournament if your going to say that.
even though it would take a considerable amount of balancing and game play adjustments, I personally support the idea and think it could really improve the combat, especially for marines, in NS2. If not please tell me why.
What if the NS team put in a dynamic cone of fire for marines in NS2? If you don't know what I'm talking about, it's very common in most First Person Shooters. it's when the accuracy of your weapon worsens based on actions. If you run it gets worse or if you unload a full clip without stopping to adjust for recoil. This is a complete change from the original NS aiming system which has a static cone of fire based on the weapon.
I think there is a lot more positives to this then negatives. It will make the team combat look more real and immersing. It will encourage marines to be more careful and take their time when entering vulnerable rooms and areas. It will make crouching much more useful, other then just hiding, well reducing back hopping and bunny hopping. It will also make walking more useful other then just silencing marines. It will help average out benefits of weapons by making the pistol not always completely dead accurate and making the HMG not a snot firing machine you can't aim past your nose. It will add more skill to aiming because you'd have to get use to adjusting for the recoil and knowing when to burst fire, single shot, or spray. You can make a secondary fire that's a scope or rail site increasing accuracy of the gun. There are a lot more to this.
the negatives are less static aiming, not being able to be as effective when jumping and shooting, possibility of making marines unbalanced in combat, the possibility of making some guns to strong or effective, and I'm sure there are more I can't think of.
Before you cry, "It will be CS with aliens." No it won't. the game play is drastically different and the similarities are shared by all FPS games. Might as well say NS is like Unreal Tournament if your going to say that.
even though it would take a considerable amount of balancing and game play adjustments, I personally support the idea and think it could really improve the combat, especially for marines, in NS2. If not please tell me why.
Comments
Aliens are pretty tough to accurately shoot, especially when they're circling you and right next to you.
to me its less about "penalising good aim" and "realism" as it is about discouraging the unprofessional antics of a lot of players (eg jumping constantly while shooting, running left and right while shooting etc etc) having players bouncing around a room shooting skulks left and right breaks immersiveness much more than unrealistic weapon behavior.
oh and the golden rule KISS. having different levels of accuracy for every stance, dance step and tounge position doesn't add depth and realism, it just adds confusion and BS factor, not to mention opening up a big ol bag of exploits that have to be patched up later. look at BF2, its accuracy system is a mess because they tried to make it "realistic" and "immersive". CS is another classic example where it took them years to fix the multitude of accuracy exploits that were opened up by their relatively simple "realistic" accuracy modifiers.
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to me its less about "penalising good aim" and "realism" as it is about discouraging the <!--coloro:#FF6666--><span style="color:#FF6666"><!--/coloro--><u>unprofessional antics</u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> of a lot of players (eg jumping constantly while shooting, running left and right while shooting etc etc) having players bouncing around a room shooting skulks left and right breaks immersiveness much more than unrealistic weapon behavior.
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Why do you want realism in NS? Being able to run around and jump while shooting is one of the things that makes being a marine fun. It allows you to develop very rewarding skills and create unique series of events in what would otherwise be a boring game. If I wanted to play a depressingly realistic mod (with your kind of realism), I would go play DoD.
To my knowledge, every game that implements dynamic recoil pairs it with a very important second feature: Locational damage. You value controlling your accuracy, because with the right accuracy you can land that all-important headshot which usually wipes out your enemy in a single blow. When all you need is ONE bullet in the right place, its worth the tradeoff to give up speed of fire for greater accuracy.
Now compare to NS. The strongest gun firing at the weakest lifeform will never take less than 4 shots. And thats an unusual situation--much more commonly you require landing anywhere from 10 to 100 shots on a single alien in order to bring him down. Your ONLY option is continuous fire, because nothing else puts out enough damage. You can't just burst 2 or 3 bullets and then stop to re-aim, hoping your higher accuracy will compensate for lower fire rate, because 2 or 3 bullets means NOTHING to whatever you are shooting at.
Since marines are forced by the game design to open fire in full-auto 95% of the time, implementing dynamic recoil is really nothing more than a massive marine nerf disguised as being atmospheric. And considering aiming in NS is already harder than most other games just due to the extremely high speeds of your targets, there's just no good reason to make it any harder.
--Scythe--
So my suggestion is that add a accuracy bonus for HMG when crouching but keep the rest of the weapons same.
- Garo
Scythe's suggestion is the one I'd like to see put in, mainly because it would be inkeeping with the feel of the game. As I said before, having recoil supressors wouldn't work with jumping running and strafing. Obviously, this would have a detremental effect on the damage done, so a slight damage tweak may be necessary, lest the future player base has a backlash against the devs.
As Garo said, the HMG has the feel of a heavy support weapon, and does have the size you'd attribute to someone in light armour having to deploy before use. For obvious reasons, a heavy armoured marine would be able to wield it and move at the same time, like the Assault Cannon in Warhammer 40k. Terminators can wield it, but it's move or fire, and Imperial Guard Sentinels can move and fire it.
I could also see heavy armor being able to stabilize weapons in certain situations, such as using an hmg while standing. A light marine might not be able to control it as well, but the high powered armor of a heavy certainly could.
The Marine has to run/jump around in order to avoid getting hit by fast moving aliens. If you take away his accuracy while he does that then he wouldn't stand chance.
Also think about JPs. They are basicly running really fast and jumping at the same time. So if any of the above suggestions would be implemented then you wouldn't be able to hit anything while JPing.
Even with new age recoil inhibitors, a weapon will not be that accurate when the user is jumping, running, strafing, REGARDLESS of how much technology is in the guns.
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*COUGH* SMARTGUN *COUGH*
Why do you want realism in NS? Being able to run around and jump while shooting is one of the things that makes being a marine fun. It allows you to develop very rewarding skills and create unique series of events in what would otherwise be a boring game. If I wanted to play a depressingly realistic mod (with your kind of realism), I would go play DoD.
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i never said i wanted realism... realism would be having a totally dynamic accuracy that changed depending on your stance and how you breathed into the mic. bugger that. to me NS is about immersive, interesting and constantly changing gameplay. You can have immersiveness without realism, you just need good SoD; Suspension of Disbelief, which is basically where you tune the game to be just convincing enough that the players brain accepts and rationalises what it is seeing, and therefore doesn't question it and maintains the illusion of reality enough to engage the player's attention. (read it a few times and it will make sense)
for example:
it is not easy for the brain to rationalise a player jumping crazily whilst shooting a weapon accurately because our brains instinctively know that action=reaction, they are seeing a weapon moving frantically, but the resulting fire from that weapon is not moving similarly (there is no reaction). It is like seeing a human moving across a floor without moving their legs- there's a reaction(movement), but no action(applied force)
it is easy to rationalise a player flying through the air, (at least enough for SoD) as long as they have something attached to their back that is ejecting a flame or smoke, giving the illusion of thrust. (action = thrust down, reaction = motion up)
::COUGH:: AVP RIP-OFF ::COUGH::!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Then you might aswell call wall walking a ripoff and MT and the concept of marines vs aliens.
i never said i wanted realism... realism would be having a totally dynamic accuracy that changed depending on your stance and how you breathed into the mic. bugger that. to me NS is about immersive, interesting and constantly changing gameplay. You can have immersiveness without realism, you just need good SoD; Suspension of Disbelief, which is basically where you tune the game to be just convincing enough that the players brain accepts and rationalises what it is seeing, and therefore doesn't question it and maintains the illusion of reality enough to engage the player's attention. <!--coloro:#FF9900--><span style="color:#FF9900"><!--/coloro-->(read it a few times and it will make sense)
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for example:
it is not easy for the brain to rationalise a player jumping crazily whilst shooting a weapon accurately because our brains instinctively know that action=reaction, they are seeing a weapon moving frantically, but the resulting fire from that weapon is not moving similarly (there is no reaction). It is like seeing a human moving across a floor without moving their legs- there's a reaction(movement), but no action(applied force)
it is easy to rationalise a player flying through the air, (at least enough for SoD) as long as they have something attached to their back that is ejecting a flame or smoke, giving the illusion of thrust. (action = thrust down, reaction = motion up)
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I'm not sure if you're trying to insult my intelligence here, so I'll let it go. My argument remains that the sacrifice of fun and game play for this change outweighs the marginal benefits of immersion gained from it. Grounding marines takes away a lot of the fun in playing them.
But weapons having differing recoils/accuracy modes is a good way to differentiate between them. As Garo mentioned, HMG having bonus accuracy when crouching makes it much more distinct from the LMG.
Locational damage, on the other hand, would be very nice if executed well. One really cool thing you could have with that is an onos with an extremely hard head.
Poor svenspa...............you want the entire NS game a total remake of AVP?
Having to stand still to hit properly would be boring. Just because it's "realistic" or "immersive" doesn't mean it helps the gameplay. Strong Gameplay is what keeps a game going, immersion is what draws people in. I was impressed with NS's scariness/creepiness when I first started playing, but really, it wears off. Gameplay keeps players playing.
No dynamic cone of fire.
Having to stand still to hit properly would be boring. Just because it's "realistic" or "immersive" doesn't mean it helps the gameplay. Strong Gameplay is what keeps a game going, immersion is what draws people in. I was impressed with NS's scariness/creepiness when I first started playing, but really, it wears off. Gameplay keeps players playing.
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Amen!
Being able to run around while firing is one of the best things in NS, and you can go make your own mod if you want recoil.
I would be in favor of instantly changing firing cones for running, standing and crouching, but not ones that change whilst firing. Attribute it to fancy recoil suppression on these guns of the future if you want "realism".
--Scythe--
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I like the idea that accuracy gets better and worse when jumping wildly. I think it could add an interesting element to gameplay. Although when you are standing still i think it should be static.
Location based damage would be an awsome addition aswell.
An LMG shooting at a skulk bh'ing..takes maybe 20-25 bullets for most skilled players--sometimes 50 and 10 pistol shots...a knife or two and then 2 nades if it's TAL. If you thought you could kill the skulk b/f it got to you, then I think you should be able to crouch...and get a tiny bit more aim..and blast the #$%#'er a little bit better. I'm talking maybe 1-2-3 more bullets hitting slightly more inside the cone out of 25.
Or have the rines get 'mini specializations' such as speed, accuracy, ammo, armor, regen, uber #%#^'ing knife from hell itself, 2 nades, castable water to regen mana for you and your comrades (lol...), sound alarm, shock wave alarm, apple snacks, etc.
as for combat, well its practicially an arcade version of NS, and not realistic at all, so they dont really need to implement any accuracy changes. it would only ruin the fast paced action of combat, the more basic combat is, the better.
it will also help keep the nubs out of the classic servers... OMG my bullets arent hitting! back to combat for me!!!! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
if this was made in any game,no one would play it at all
i think that with NS classic, they should make it as realistic as possible to further devolop the atmosphere, therefore they should make it so that moving, jumping, crouching or even going prone, will affect accuracy.
as for combat, well its practicially an arcade version of NS, and not realistic at all, so they dont really need to implement any accuracy changes. it would only ruin the fast paced action of combat, the more basic combat is, the better.
it will also help keep the nubs out of the classic servers... OMG my bullets arent hitting! back to combat for me!!!! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
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"Realism" should not supersede gameplay decisions. And in case you haven't noticed, we need these "nubs" playing classic because NS is dying.