Lower individual skill?
n0oNE
Join Date: 2006-11-08 Member: 58474Members
Join Date: 2006-11-08 Member: 58474Members
Hi guys,
I was just tinking about NS2 and an idea came to my mind.
What kinda sucks about NS1 is, that in some matches these madfragging guys just run around as a rine or skulk or early Fade or whatever and just frag every enemy they see. If you dont have any more skilled players in your own team, this one guy can really run down all your strategies and tactics because you cant defend a place vs. him for a longer time.
I think may of you guys know what I mean.
So what could we do about it? NS is a team-game and so a not so skilled team oder not so good-aiming team should be able to defend themselves vs. these lonley warriors, because for me theres nothing more frustrating then this happenings.
I thougt about a system, that increases the firepower of each marine when the move in a group just like included in FrontLinForce(a great mod, but nearly any players around btw:) )
So that the squad has a better chance vs. these egoistic fraggers.
What would you say? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I was just tinking about NS2 and an idea came to my mind.
What kinda sucks about NS1 is, that in some matches these madfragging guys just run around as a rine or skulk or early Fade or whatever and just frag every enemy they see. If you dont have any more skilled players in your own team, this one guy can really run down all your strategies and tactics because you cant defend a place vs. him for a longer time.
I think may of you guys know what I mean.
So what could we do about it? NS is a team-game and so a not so skilled team oder not so good-aiming team should be able to defend themselves vs. these lonley warriors, because for me theres nothing more frustrating then this happenings.
I thougt about a system, that increases the firepower of each marine when the move in a group just like included in FrontLinForce(a great mod, but nearly any players around btw:) )
So that the squad has a better chance vs. these egoistic fraggers.
What would you say? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Comments
#2 Goes in the "Ideas etc etc" forum.
#3 It is a good idea.
Then you are screwed. That's why they call it "a game" and not "a tea party".
dude look at this xfire conversation i just had withsomeone..no lie LOL
[12:12] BumpKin: omg i cant wait, good graphics and all skill
[12:12] GU - Tigersmith: haha
[12:12] GU - Tigersmith: yea
[12:12] GU - Tigersmith: all skill
[12:12] BumpKin: all skill
[12:12] GU - Tigersmith: it is
If NSS is an improved NS with the same great gameplay, it has my buy. But, if they water it down to make it easier they don't.
eventhough it is a good idea... i think ns is based on skills... so yeah...
ns is fine as it is....
Pancaking is Removed -> Fades' Blink-Dodging/Blocking is Removed -> (NS2) Marines' Dodging is Removed
That would be a horrible trend to follow, it would eradicate such a huge portion of the dynamic-ness of NS's gameplay... it would be tragic.
#1 Already been suggested.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->#2 Goes in the "Ideas etc etc" forum.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
#3 It is a good idea.
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And moving.....
However, there are multiple kinds of skill: the knowledge of what to do strategically ("Do I go here, or go there?"), what to do tactically (where the skulk is probably hiding, whether it's safe to run around the corner, etc), and "twitch skills" (aim, reflexes, etc.)
To the extent that NS emphasises skill (and it should), the more high-level skills ought to be more important: being in the right place at the right time and knowing what to do there ought to be more important than twitch skills. NS has always been billed as a thinking fellow's shooter.
One good idea I heard for encouraging marines to travel in packs was to (either through dynamic infestation or otherwise) severely reduce ambient lighting in certain areas, but boost the power of the marine flashlight (with the new accurate Source lighting) to compensate. Besides being atmospheric as hell, it would make being all alone as a Marine dangerous and scary -- you can see where you're going, and that's about it.
ok so you're hoping you can outweigh your lack of skills by just following others and leeching on them? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
It's called Volume Of Fire.
More people = more shots.
More shots (tends to)= more hits
More hits = more damage.
Shame people forget about that.
Same thing with aliens, except it reverses the concept.
More aliens = more targets
More targets = less chance of you getting deliberately aimed at
The lesson here is, to move with the pack. You get the passive bonus of more people trying to inflict the damage, as well as the direect psychological bonus of "OMG THERE'S A WHOLE F*CKING ARMY!!!", which can be more potent than the damage bonuses...
There is no skill ceiling in NS. You can always improve your game. You can always continue to learn and get better. I know lots of very good players, but I haven't met any (even high level clanners) that couldn't still get better.
Don't even <i>suggest</i> taking that out of NS2. Should the new players still be useful to the team? Absolutely. But if you ever reach a point where a player has learned everything, can do everything, can beat everyone, and cant get any better, then it becomes boring. That player won't be playing NS much longer. He's going to move on to some other game for new challenges.
Good teamwork already provides ways for lesser skilled players to defeat more skilled players, and it will do that in NS2 as well. But theres no reason to water down the abilities of better players to give weaker players a chance. Especially since theres such a wide variety of different skills to learn in NS, and few players are equally good at them all. A player who is weaker at skill A may be better at skill B and be able to use that to defeat the player who is stronger at skill A. And if you're not good at ANY of the skills...then practice! Don't expect the game to compensate for you!
One good idea I heard for encouraging marines to travel in packs was to (either through dynamic infestation or otherwise) severely reduce ambient lighting in certain areas, but boost the power of the marine flashlight (with the new accurate Source lighting) to compensate. Besides being atmospheric as hell, it would make being all alone as a Marine dangerous and scary -- you can see where you're going, and that's about it.
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Having lighting affect the gameplay is a bad idea because it's impossible to standardize it. A hallway that's dark for one person might be pitch black for Joe Bad Graphics Card, or fairly bright for Bob Jacked Gamma. I believe making a game competitively balanced revolves around minimizing factors outside the players control(Lag is a good example of something that can't be removed(without LAN)), and having graphics affect gameplay is one of the easiest ways to screw up the balance.
Lt-patch: Marines in groups have a tendency to become overconfident and overly trusting, and they also block each other/others fire. A smart alien can use a distraction to kill many marines. I think the requirement for aliens to be in melee range to kill is the biggest advantage to groups. A skulk gunned down by 2 marines before reaching them will do 0 damage; a skulk vs 1 marine has a better chance of reaching him.
dude look at this xfire conversation i just had withsomeone..no lie LOL
[12:12] BumpKin: omg i cant wait, good graphics and all skill
[12:12] GU - Tigersmith: haha
[12:12] GU - Tigersmith: yea
[12:12] GU - Tigersmith: all skill
[12:12] BumpKin: all skill
[12:12] GU - Tigersmith: it is
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Aside from motion tracking, silence, cloaking, and walker fades v lmgs.
There used to be a lot more individual skill in this game in 1.0 :O
Part of NS's appeal for me is the depth of gameplay.
I'd go as far as suggesting that NS2's alien lifeforms should be easier to learn the basics of- so long as it doesn't compromise on skill needed to master said lifeforms.
<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b><i><!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->A minute to learn, a lifetime to master.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></i></b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
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I'm going to say this as many times as I can before NS2's design is fully set in stone.
A minute to learn, a lifetime to master.
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Definitely seconded. I've been playing since 1.02 and as such am a fairly capable player. I'm in South Africa, so we have a fairly small community, which means we all congregate on a handful of servers. Our better commanders rally their troops, hand out 2 shotguns and set up ambushes for the first early fade. I've been happily dominating groups of 2/3 marines all over a map, then run into a room with one marine and had the rest jump out and stand in front of the exits with shotguns. Dead fade.
I'm not the best fade around, but seriously weak teams (in terms of individual FPS skill) have done this before, with a bit of organisation.
The problem you seem to have isn't with NS, its with your fellow players. You need a good commander and intelligent players to take down the rambo fades / oni. Two jetpack hmgers working well will easily paste a lone onos, even one can do it if he's skilled. Teamwork shouldn't be promoted by gimmicky code like increased damage to people in groups. If you stick in a group you're already more effective, some people just dont play intelligently.
It should be that even if players aren't great, if they work together, they should be able to down that one leet marine - which currently isn't the case.
NS 1.04 was less skill intensive than 3.0. Fades used acid rocket. And look at the players numbers then versus now.
I like the idea of empowering marines when sticking together. But it still comes down to aiming.
I have some ideas to ease the skill requirements:
- guns have larger spread, therefore following the pattern of at least 1 bullet hitting, but reducing multiple bullets from the same person
- blink removed
- alien speed reduced
- marine firepower reduced
That essentially makes aliens slower and weapons weaker. It would be easier as a marine to aim at a target, but the damage potential between a pro and nub would be smaller than it is now. Aliens would move slower, but gun damage would be reduced.
But so long as the game moves toward the "atmosphere", the less playable it will be. Things like making a room dark for the "spook" factor is ridiculous because it just forces us as players to ramp gamma. I never had to do this for CS or any other mod. I suggest to improve the game as a game, not as a story.
Teamwork shouldn't be dumbed down solely to gimmicky things like "a group of marines within 10 paces of eachother have regenerating body armor" and "a squad leader bestows movement buffs on his squad mates," just because people feel that teamwork, not skill should be rewarded. Instead, there should be a compromise - reward both teamwork and individual skill. A single player SHOULD have the ability to turn the tide of a game, but gimmicky things (like the above) should also be there to encourage that player to stick with his team.
I'm going to say this as many times as I can before NS2's design is fully set in stone.
<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b><i><!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->A minute to learn, a lifetime to master.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></i></b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
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this is great, i love it. but when a player joins an NS server for the first time and gets wasted 6 times in a row by the same bladed jesus, the chances of him sticking around for a lifetime (let alone another 5 minutes) is almost nil. Master fades really can ruin a public game, especially when they have a bad attitude. (99% become extremely arrogant and hostile towards "newbs" in my [extensive] experience) The trick here is to narrow the gap between the effectiveness of a "master fade" and the effectiveness of a "bunch of noobs". right now a master fade can rape a bunch of noobs with little effort, and then will proceed to taunt them and tell them they might as well quit now.
people like this:
<!--quoteo(post=1588483:date=Dec 15 2006, 06:03 AM:name=Disciple)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Disciple @ Dec 15 2006, 06:03 AM) [snapback]1588483[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
ROFL embarrasing thread... you must really suck! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
ok so you're hoping you can outweigh your lack of skills by just following others and leeching on them? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
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should not be given the reign to completely dominate games, especially public games. It is all very well to have "ceiling" but you have to remember that the higher that ceiling is, the harder it is to reach from the floor. especially when you've got some arrogant ******* stomping your fingers all the time. this is the reality, and many community has been destroyed by exactly this kind of elitism becoming the norm. it stifles new blood and turns away players who mature beyond it. eventually you just have a tiny hardcore community who basically sit around telling themselves how damn l33t they are. I've spoken to more ex NS players than i care to remember who have mirrored my sentiments- "i'll come back to the game when the bladed jebus is nerfed". In my experience, the only players who encourage a "high ceiling" are those in a position to exploit it.
IMHO, in NS "Safety in numbers" should be the number one rule. This can be achieved a number of ways, one mod that did it extremely well was Frontline Force (which has already been mentioned). 1 good sniper could hold a node on his own against 2 or 3 players, but once you got a group of 4 or more the rewards of regenerating health and better accuracy really kicked in, and made the sniper's job very hard. This sort of system could be implemented in NS a multitude of ways; for example
for TSA:
-Health & ammo kits are cheaper to drop in a room/area with 3 or more marines in it
-Improved reload rate and armor absorbtion for marines in a group (call it a moral bonus)
and similar bonuses for aliens:
-improved attack rate in close vicinity of teammates (great for group attacks of a base)
-improved cloaking
-innate regen only when near teammates/infestation
-deny combat classes accelerated healing.
Giving the Fade Metabolise was a huge mistake. It made it completely self-sufficient, and therefore a step above every other class in the game. The fade's effectiveness in close combat wouldn't be so bad if its regeneration rate wasn't so fast. a fade can attack, kill a few players, retreat, heal and attack again before those players have respawned and re-organised. The other option is to med-spam them, but this is a constant drain on limited resources that the Fade doesn't have. I'm not saying its unbeatable, but overcoming 2 or 3 of them in a public game (which is very common) requires organisation and tactics that are simply beyond pubs. The worst part is that the Fade's effectiveness made the Onos a novelty class at best. The onos simply isn't economically or strategically valuable when the Fade can be reached and maintained for far less res.
Charlie and co, please please please don't make these mistakes again. It has cost the community far too many players through alienation and division over "skill".
Edit: If you don't like the arrogant elitist bladed jesus on your server, maybe you should find an admin or find a community where it is not allowed. Honestly, a lot of what you just mentioned is psychological and not a problem with the game.
The first image is one where team work and smarts is the most important part of the game, and the second is the obvious conclusion the new player will draw: wow I can't even see them before I'm dead.
Advertise the game for what it is, a game that does require skill and where skill is greatly awarded, but where less proficient players can still help out by building and welding etc until they become good enough to actually do damage. Make sure new players realise that the game really is unforgiving in the beginning.
You should never lower individual skill, but instead promote learning and improvement in newer or less skilled players. Provide tutorials, demonstrations, a hazard course, support channels/chat, anything - but don't lower individual skill. When you dumb down the game, you will dumb down the players along with it.
Edit: If you don't like the arrogant elitist bladed jesus on your server, maybe you should find an admin or find a community where it is not allowed. Honestly, a lot of what you just mentioned is psychological and not a problem with the game.
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I don't know if you've ever heard the term "market research" but it is basically the study of the physchological response from potential customers to different kinds of marketing and products. Yes, most of what i said revolves around the psychology of the customers. (in this case gamers) what some people here are suggesting is developing & marketing the game for pro gamers, which is a huge mistake for a few reasons-
firstly all pro gamers were noobs once too. no noobs, no pro gamers. if you dont make the game somewhat noob friendly it doesn't matter how you market it, you simply are not going to build a large enough customer base to turn a profit. and lets face it, we are talking about making a profit here. this isn't a free mod, you can't apply the "if you don't like it don't play it" rational. bottom line is, if not enough people like it they won't buy it and that means no profit, no developer support and the rest is history.
secondly the pro gaming community is a niche market, so even if you make it the ultimate pro gaming experience, your customer base is severly limited. Do a search around, and you will find that casual gamers make up the vast majority of the gaming dollar. the Wii is a beautiful case of how tailoring a product for casual gamers sells. That doesn't mean NS2 should be modelled completely around casual gaming, but if you lock out that market you are cutting your nose of despite your face.
finally, most pro gamers are pretty set in their ways. there are pro Quake players, pro CS players... and the rest. the people that play these games are generally very passionate about their chosen discipline and will really only play other games casually... again with the casual market. There is simply NO WAY a new game will ever magically draw away a large number of these players. i long ago stopped counting the "CS Killer" mods and games that have come and gone. These monsters of online gaming have achieved a kind of critical mass, where the size of the player base alone is enough of a "feature" to attract new players. NS does not have this, hopefully one day it will, but as the saying goes, you have to walk before you run.
as for your farsical suggestion to find a community that "does not allow" the bladed jebus... good luck with that. as pro players love spouting "its part of the game" and you only have to look at the hordes of nonexistent and unpopulated servers to see how well that explanation goes down with casual and new players.
tutorials demonstrations support channels/chat... about the only one of these that is really viable is a decent tutorial built into the game that players can go through before joining servers so they have some clue as to how the game is played. they can not and should not teach players every advanced skill in the game.
to conclude i should add that i do not have a problem with "individual skill", i DO have a problem with individuals being able to heavily influence the outcome of what is supposed to be a team game. If "individual skill" is the ultimate force in the game the gameplay will attract hordes of selfish, elitist and generally unpleasant gamers. One example of this is when CS was changed so that arm and leg shots with the AWP were made non-lethal, and things like a zoom delay were added. thousands complained and whined that it was "dumbing down" the game and taking away the "skill of awping", but the fact is that the super-awpers were driving away a lot of other gamers, player numbers were dropping and changes had to be made to keep the game accessable, particularly for the release of CS:S. Those awpers still play the game, only now so do many more "noobs" and casual gamers like myself. The infinitesimal loss of a few hardcore AWPers pales in comparison to the gain in player(customer) numbers that resulted.
bottom line is, if the game isn't accessable, you will not attract enough players to turn a profit and therefore keep the game alive. "individual skill" takes time to learn, and those that wish to will find an edge in the game even if it is "dumbed down", but pandering to the hardcore players at the expense of accessability simply doesn't make economic sense.
I don't know if you've ever heard the term "market research" but it is basically the study of the physchological response from potential customers to different kinds of marketing and products. Yes, most of what i said revolves around the psychology of the customers. (in this case gamers) what some people here are suggesting is developing & marketing the game for pro gamers, which is a huge mistake for a few reasons-
firstly all pro gamers were noobs once too. no noobs, no pro gamers. if you dont make the game somewhat noob friendly it doesn't matter how you market it, you simply are not going to build a large enough customer base to turn a profit. and lets face it, we are talking about making a profit here. this isn't a free mod, you can't apply the "if you don't like it don't play it" rational. bottom line is, if not enough people like it they won't buy it and that means no profit, no developer support and the rest is history.
secondly the pro gaming community is a niche market, so even if you make it the ultimate pro gaming experience, your customer base is severly limited. Do a search around, and you will find that casual gamers make up the vast majority of the gaming dollar. the Wii is a beautiful case of how tailoring a product for casual gamers sells. That doesn't mean NS2 should be modelled completely around casual gaming, but if you lock out that market you are cutting your nose of despite your face.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you're assuming that I am a pro player who wants NS2 to be built for pro players. What I want is for the learning curve to be retained. This allows for competitive players to continue pushing the limits of the game while new players get the feel of it. It's very much possible to have newb-friendly servers and competitive servers without sacrificing individual skill. The game just needs to be marketed well. I believe this would make the difference between a timeless kind of game and one that gets shelved by players that don't see any future in it.
From a marketing perspective, sure. Dumb down the game, dumb players will enjoy it. They paid you the money, so it's their loss after that.
<!--quoteo(post=1595054:date=Jan 5 2007, 07:54 AM:name=Kaine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kaine @ Jan 5 2007, 07:54 AM) [snapback]1595054[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
as for your farsical suggestion to find a community that "does not allow" the bladed jebus... good luck with that. as pro players love spouting "its part of the game" and you only have to look at the hordes of nonexistent and unpopulated servers to see how well that explanation goes down with casual and new players.
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I think it's funny that you call my suggestion a farce. The servers I play on do not tolerate player abuse. It's a little bit far fetched though to blame competitive players for the number of empty servers that now exist.
<!--quoteo(post=1595054:date=Jan 5 2007, 07:54 AM:name=Kaine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kaine @ Jan 5 2007, 07:54 AM) [snapback]1595054[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
to conclude i should add that i do not have a problem with "individual skill", i DO have a problem with individuals being able to heavily influence the outcome of what is supposed to be a team game. If "individual skill" is the ultimate force in the game the gameplay will attract hordes of selfish, elitist and generally unpleasant gamers. One example of this is when CS was changed so that arm and leg shots with the AWP were made non-lethal, and things like a zoom delay were added. thousands complained and whined that it was "dumbing down" the game and taking away the "skill of awping", but the fact is that the super-awpers were driving away a lot of other gamers, player numbers were dropping and changes had to be made to keep the game accessable, particularly for the release of CS:S. Those awpers still play the game, only now so do many more "noobs" and casual gamers like myself. The infinitesimal loss of a few hardcore AWPers pales in comparison to the gain in player(customer) numbers that resulted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comparing a balance adjustment of the AWP to NS is pretty nebulous IMO. The complaint is that individuals in NS can heavily influence the outcome of a game. I'm not sure what servers you are playing on. Maybe if there were mostly new players and a pro player came along, the game would get unbalanced. However, in the majority of cases if some players had a clue, they could easily prevent pro players from walking over them. For example, if they wouldn't rush these players directly or engage them in environments where they are clearly at a disadvantage to the experienced player, things would be different. Another simple concept players should know is that the skulk can die in less than a second, especially if they run in a straight line at a marine. There are many simple things that players need to know. Just because the information is not presented to them and because some can't seem to learn from their mistakes, it doesn't justify decreasing the power of players who can play the game well.
This isn't a case of an AWP killing you in a split second from the other side of the map no matter where it hits you, where you are powerless and can't do anything about it. This is a case of complexity which is not explained to newer players. This is also a case of some players just not being able to learn.
<!--quoteo(post=1595054:date=Jan 5 2007, 07:54 AM:name=Kaine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kaine @ Jan 5 2007, 07:54 AM) [snapback]1595054[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
bottom line is, if the game isn't accessable, you will not attract enough players to turn a profit and therefore keep the game alive. "individual skill" takes time to learn, and those that wish to will find an edge in the game even if it is "dumbed down", but pandering to the hardcore players at the expense of accessability simply doesn't make economic sense.
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The game isn't kept alive by profit unless it is a pay-per-month kind of game. It's about how many new players you can get. Part of that is to make it newbie friendly. Another part is to make the game interesting enough so that people keep playing it and recommend it to their friends. While individual skill takes time to learn, basic skill is necessary to prevent much of the problems that you are describing. It's not that pro players at the moment have found an edge over the general players, except perhaps in the avenues of bunnyhop. They are really in a completely different mindset. It's not an AWP killing from a leg-shot kind of edge. It's more like knifing the camping newbie kind of edge.
Noobs don't play NS anymore for very long. They, undoubtedly, feel like they have no chance, or get frustrated that they can't live 5 seconds after spawning. Lowering individual skill isn't a good idea. However, I do believe that it should take more than one player to bring the other team to its knees.
Also, ou don't learn from only playing against bad players. Sometimes you need to play (and lose a few times) against better players to learn new tricks too!