I was tried to make an infest effect with only entity tool .. but this... HOLY **** AMAZING <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1582786:date=Dec 1 2006, 11:52 AM:name=Ots)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ots @ Dec 1 2006, 11:52 AM) [snapback]1582786[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It looks like cheese. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some very sexy cheese that is <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
But remember, try to get the more optimization as you can. We are not all using quad cores, and I still hope NS2 will be playable.
And one important point for me, even if I am REALLY happy to see NS2 as a reality, don't make the game too newb/friendly. The best quality of NS is not the graphics, or whaterver, but its own learning curve.
I was just wondering how this would affect the in-game performances.. I guess the DI is still not perfectly tuned, but how much does it asks from the computer? Now the question comes around again : "How fast will it spread?" I guess that'll affect the performances a lot, too! I have no idea if this would be possible (maybe only for hive locations), but maybe there would be a way for the mapper to compile his map, run it once, let the DI spread, then save some info (the area it reaches, the path it takes, etc.) into the .bsp (like when using cubemaps, at least I think so, my knowledge is limited on this subject), so it would remove some stress on the client's computer.. I hope you can understand what I mean.. ^^
Anyway, I have complete confidence in you guys, keep up the good work!
I'll love the smell of Flamethrower-burned alien crap in the mornin'!
Please implement it in the game like it exists in star craft. If the zerg builds a structure, the infestation near this structure grows in all directions. but it should be possible to build structures everywhere, NOT ONLY on the infested areas.
I hope you guys keep on releasing pics/videos of NS2. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1582816:date=Dec 1 2006, 12:27 PM:name=Solitario)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Solitario @ Dec 1 2006, 12:27 PM) [snapback]1582816[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Damn, this looks so awesome!!
Please implement it in the game like it exists in star craft. If the zerg builds a structure, the infestation near this structure grows in all directions. but it should be possible to build structures everywhere, NOT ONLY on the infested areas.
I hope you guys keep on releasing pics/videos of NS2. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, idk about exactly like it exists in starcraft, but it would work well.
Looks brilliant, opens many possibilities for gameplay. Maybe it could do damage to marines, or do damage to marines equipment over time.
I do like Glimmermans idea of the flamethrower and I want my crispy noise with it too if that goes ahead <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Looks great, never seen anything like it in a game before.
Much awesomeness <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I wonder if you could use this (with a very fast animation) for alien 'egg spawning'. A big blob of creep bubbles up near the hive and then out pops a gross little Skulk.
I especialy like the specular effect. Just the right amount.
Since it has been recorded in accelerated mode, how fast would that spreading take in reality ? Over 5 min ?
I get the impression that its actualy 2 stages : - moving texture to prepare apparent growth starting - model being pushed from outside the wall to appear inside. If this is the case, is it a dynamicly changing model or is it static to each map locations ?
How many individual models were used for that shot ?
One suggestion, shouldn't the mucus be more transparent at its border ? I mean, at the border between mucus and structures, it should start transparent and then the closer you get to its center, the less transparent it gets.
- It's TOO bumpy. Not just because it might make it either hard to move through, or hide lots of the alien. It just looks too ... BIG to be infestation.
- Too solid. I know hives and chambers grow right out of the bacterium, but I'd rather see something more ... wispy? More like moss with an algae base.
- Will this lead to maps with random pathways of infestation rather then infested areas with small tendrils at the front lines?
Realizing however, that this is an early stage experiment, I'd like to say "awesome!" and hope that this tech makes it into the final NS2. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I have a few questions and ideas for Max/Charlie, and feel free to discuss their merits/problems.
How does the 'spread' algorithm work? Is a random direction chosen for a random period of time, etc?
The video shows DI spreading only from the furthest point, it's 'head'. Have you considered a slower spread outward from other less 'active' parts of the creep (i.e. radial)?
If you've seen the movie 'Evolution,' you'll know exactly what I'm talking about with this one: Tendrils tendrils tendrils! The effect of multiple-tendril growth gives a very dynamic and living sense to the creep. It seems both concious but also 'natural', since there is certainly an element of randomness assigned to the growth direction.
Creep preference - the non random element of creep growth. Does the bacteria favor shadows? This could really help give a level of consistency to the creep's behavior. I'm not sure if theres an easy way of determining an area's lightedness with the source engine, but let's say there is. You could have the creep enter a room (from the ceilings/ducts even?), and then grow towards the corners/shadowy areas, continuing to expand outwards from there. I can't exactly explain why, but this just seems like it would give such a natural 'feel' to the creep. You've given it intentions, motivation, needs!
I'm not going to give my opinion/ideas on gameplay effect because that's a WHOLE other subject. All we can really discuss with any validity right now is what we've seen - your video.
Overall, what you have so far is outstanding. Other than a few translucency issues (minor touch-up it seems), and a potential 'tendril' or 'radial' (or both..) growth pattern addition, the movements look very nice even at this early stage (It's already a revolutionary concept!). I hope you guys are open to minor suggestions like the ones I've posted here in order to polish this feature and really make it shine.
Here's the importance of creating a natural behavior: Players both new and old, upon seeing creep for the first time, go "whoa..." and stare at it for awhile, study its behavior. Ultimately, though, the novelty will fade and creep will become part of the whole dynamic setting of the game - still very important, but not central like it was when they first saw it ('whoa..'). At this point, the more creep fits into a player's expectations of where it should be and what it should be doing, the more successfully it will be integrated into their overall experience and the map's environment, thus bringing a greater sense of immersion. Thus, it retains its payoff (more subtle than the 'whoa' factor, but more persistent).
A closing note: "Natrual Selection", the theory, suggests that millions of random changes to dna/behaviors occur within the multitude of individuals in a species (or the individual cells in this growth, for example), and that those which happen to be beneficial mutations/behaviors help the organism survive and are therefore passed on genetically and retained in future generations. Thus, for an organism to be successful, it must learn patterns of behavior to survive, but also be resilient enough to withstand new environments and MOST IMPORTANTLY, remain Dynamic and Adaptive - able to change. Over-specialization of a species makes it too static, and thus more fragile because it's dependent upon its environment, which could be changed at a moment's notice.
The kharra (and humans too) represent two pinnacles of natural selection (the theory). Therefore, I would only imagine that they would embody these traits (adaptibility, etc), though clearly in very different ways. If you keep this fundamental concept in mind throughout development/implementation - those described in the previous paragraph - I have a feeling yowill have a product on your hands which, like the theory of NS itself, will be revolutinary.
Hey that looks pretty neat. I hope it's implemented in the way you described. Can I ask if those textures in the test-map are remade from scratch, or have you just applied normal/specular mapping to the originals? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
i am at a lose for words its bloody amazing i cant take my eyes off of it
lovely algarythum glade someone wrote it
builds a mass of chambers behind a door watches infestation flood the surounding area wait for marines to open the door watches them run from flying needles and watches marvalous kharaa bacterium that consumes the virgin steal walls
love the mesh idea tho any player will have this spawned under it will slowly be raised into the air is my understanding
someone mentioned makeing it hide from light? that would add a whole new ball game, but i disagree make its seek light, add to its prority list the ability to see if the next selected area is closer to a light source than the last if so flag the next roll/next priority placement to ether have a extra chance to roll and grow in the same direction by amieing up the roll to a 2-4 instead of a 1 in 3 chance to hopefully grow towards the light or before it cycle's thru's possable placements if closer to light, flag it to flip a coin and grow toward the light again or continue's to cycle its placement algarithum
reason i say towards the light so it seeks out light to block it off
love the mess, pathing the way the exspanding a mess out of neatly painted path absolute awsomeness
if i have said to much just delete ths if i arnt even close or you cant read it eh its still a huge pat on the back well done max, awsome flaya and a huge congrats to the ns team thats have put there thumb print on this, and the game, and tahnk you for leting use see the monsters creation
I probably dont even need to say this...but regarding some people saying 'its too fast' - would you rather have a video that was 3 times as long and sit there fast forwarding to see the effect properly? At least it'd be somewhat more interesting than watching paint dry <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Fantastic stuff, by the way. It almost feels a shame that it's not being used for a game where this technology would have a huger effect (as in, the code used for the DI -were- the game, pretty much). Having said that...I'm sure when NS2 is released we'll be loving DI too much to give a crap ^_^
<!--quoteo(post=1582881:date=Dec 1 2006, 02:33 PM:name=Merkaba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merkaba @ Dec 1 2006, 02:33 PM) [snapback]1582881[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I probably dont even need to say this...but regarding some people saying 'its too fast' - would you rather have a video that was 3 times as long and sit there fast forwarding to see the effect properly? At least it'd be somewhat more interesting than watching paint dry <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would, actually naa this is perfect to excite us NS players
Quote that sums up this Feature
"Neat! Why can't any of the games coming from major dev house's have features like this?" only in Unknownworlds can it happen
Glad you guys like it! I'm happy the the overall response seems to be quite positive. I guess you know you have the "right" game feature when it's no surprise to anyone.
To address some common questions:
- Yep, the video shows it growing very fast. We expect it will go quite slowly during normal play. Turn your back on it to build a couple structures and then you notice it's gotten closer.
- Yep, we expect the Gorge to be able to "grow" it faster with his bacterial spray, though we are just guessing. It's way too fun to "paint" with it to not plan on including this somehow.
- We're not sure about whether it will be required for alien structures or not (ala Starcraft). We'll have to try that.
- ...and yes, of course we plan to have something to burn it all away. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Yeah, this isn't just some copied feature from another FPS. It's groundbreaking as far as I can tell.
And about the fact that it's "bulky" or "too thick". Remember that NS2 is not NS:S. In NS1 this would have been... difficult... I imagine. The game doesn't have to be exactly the same as it was, especially in elements such as this infestation creep thing (I know, my technical speech intimidates you all).
In fact, I'm glad they're changing it up some, making thicker creep, etc. It makes the game look and feel more alive, and I wouldn't really be all that excited for just a clone of NS with prettier graphics (though I'd personally like major gameplay elements preserved, and extended, in addition to all the other cool changes that will no doubt be made).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and yes, of course we plan to have something to burn it all away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
wanna maps wanna maps <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Hu why not to see an eggs spawning with same effect... nothing and growing up bigger and bigger and splash ...
I can't imagine the code under it w00t !d
Some very sexy cheese that is <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
But remember, try to get the more optimization as you can. We are not all using quad cores, and I still hope NS2 will be playable.
And one important point for me, even if I am REALLY happy to see NS2 as a reality, don't make the game too newb/friendly. The best quality of NS is not the graphics, or whaterver, but its own learning curve.
I was just wondering how this would affect the in-game performances.. I guess the DI is still not perfectly tuned, but how much does it asks from the computer? Now the question comes around again : "How fast will it spread?" I guess that'll affect the performances a lot, too! I have no idea if this would be possible (maybe only for hive locations), but maybe there would be a way for the mapper to compile his map, run it once, let the DI spread, then save some info (the area it reaches, the path it takes, etc.) into the .bsp (like when using cubemaps, at least I think so, my knowledge is limited on this subject), so it would remove some stress on the client's computer.. I hope you can understand what I mean.. ^^
Anyway, I have complete confidence in you guys, keep up the good work!
I'll love the smell of Flamethrower-burned alien crap in the mornin'!
That'll add 100x more immersion when playing.
Please implement it in the game like it exists in star craft. If the zerg builds a structure, the infestation near this structure grows in all directions. but it should be possible to build structures everywhere, NOT ONLY on the infested areas.
I hope you guys keep on releasing pics/videos of NS2. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Please implement it in the game like it exists in star craft. If the zerg builds a structure, the infestation near this structure grows in all directions. but it should be possible to build structures everywhere, NOT ONLY on the infested areas.
I hope you guys keep on releasing pics/videos of NS2. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, idk about exactly like it exists in starcraft, but it would work well.
I do like Glimmermans idea of the flamethrower and I want my crispy noise with it too if that goes ahead <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Looks great, never seen anything like it in a game before.
I wonder if you could use this (with a very fast animation) for alien 'egg spawning'. A big blob of creep bubbles up near the hive and then out pops a gross little Skulk.
I especialy like the specular effect. Just the right amount.
Since it has been recorded in accelerated mode, how fast would that spreading take in reality ? Over 5 min ?
I get the impression that its actualy 2 stages :
- moving texture to prepare apparent growth starting
- model being pushed from outside the wall to appear inside. If this is the case, is it a dynamicly changing model or is it static to each map locations ?
How many individual models were used for that shot ?
One suggestion, shouldn't the mucus be more transparent at its border ? I mean, at the border between mucus and structures, it should start transparent and then the closer you get to its center, the less transparent it gets.
- It's TOO bumpy. Not just because it might make it either hard to move through, or hide lots of the alien. It just looks too ... BIG to be infestation.
- Too solid. I know hives and chambers grow right out of the bacterium, but I'd rather see something more ... wispy? More like moss with an algae base.
- Will this lead to maps with random pathways of infestation rather then infested areas with small tendrils at the front lines?
Realizing however, that this is an early stage experiment, I'd like to say "awesome!" and hope that this tech makes it into the final NS2. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Although it appears at first glance that the infestation is kinda "thick"
Hat goes off to Max, that's some deep magic right there.
I have a few questions and ideas for Max/Charlie, and feel free to discuss their merits/problems.
How does the 'spread' algorithm work? Is a random direction chosen for a random period of time, etc?
The video shows DI spreading only from the furthest point, it's 'head'. Have you considered a slower spread outward from other less 'active' parts of the creep (i.e. radial)?
If you've seen the movie 'Evolution,' you'll know exactly what I'm talking about with this one: Tendrils tendrils tendrils! The effect of multiple-tendril growth gives a very dynamic and living sense to the creep. It seems both concious but also 'natural', since there is certainly an element of randomness assigned to the growth direction.
Creep preference - the non random element of creep growth. Does the bacteria favor shadows? This could really help give a level of consistency to the creep's behavior. I'm not sure if theres an easy way of determining an area's lightedness with the source engine, but let's say there is. You could have the creep enter a room (from the ceilings/ducts even?), and then grow towards the corners/shadowy areas, continuing to expand outwards from there. I can't exactly explain why, but this just seems like it would give such a natural 'feel' to the creep. You've given it intentions, motivation, needs!
I'm not going to give my opinion/ideas on gameplay effect because that's a WHOLE other subject. All we can really discuss with any validity right now is what we've seen - your video.
Overall, what you have so far is outstanding. Other than a few translucency issues (minor touch-up it seems), and a potential 'tendril' or 'radial' (or both..) growth pattern addition, the movements look very nice even at this early stage (It's already a revolutionary concept!). I hope you guys are open to minor suggestions like the ones I've posted here in order to polish this feature and really make it shine.
Here's the importance of creating a natural behavior: Players both new and old, upon seeing creep for the first time, go "whoa..." and stare at it for awhile, study its behavior. Ultimately, though, the novelty will fade and creep will become part of the whole dynamic setting of the game - still very important, but not central like it was when they first saw it ('whoa..'). At this point, the more creep fits into a player's expectations of where it should be and what it should be doing, the more successfully it will be integrated into their overall experience and the map's environment, thus bringing a greater sense of immersion. Thus, it retains its payoff (more subtle than the 'whoa' factor, but more persistent).
A closing note: "Natrual Selection", the theory, suggests that millions of random changes to dna/behaviors occur within the multitude of individuals in a species (or the individual cells in this growth, for example), and that those which happen to be beneficial mutations/behaviors help the organism survive and are therefore passed on genetically and retained in future generations. Thus, for an organism to be successful, it must learn patterns of behavior to survive, but also be resilient enough to withstand new environments and MOST IMPORTANTLY, remain Dynamic and Adaptive - able to change. Over-specialization of a species makes it too static, and thus more fragile because it's dependent upon its environment, which could be changed at a moment's notice.
The kharra (and humans too) represent two pinnacles of natural selection (the theory). Therefore, I would only imagine that they would embody these traits (adaptibility, etc), though clearly in very different ways. If you keep this fundamental concept in mind throughout development/implementation - those described in the previous paragraph - I have a feeling yowill have a product on your hands which, like the theory of NS itself, will be revolutinary.
/end long ramble
Thanks for reading
NavyFish
Can I ask if those textures in the test-map are remade from scratch, or have you just applied normal/specular mapping to the originals? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Like the blog states, this technology can really open the door to amazing effects: from lighting to interaction manipulation.
I really hope you guys keep at it. It would really add a hole new level to the experience.
lovely algarythum glade someone wrote it
builds a mass of chambers behind a door watches infestation flood the surounding area wait for marines to open the door watches them run from flying needles and watches marvalous kharaa bacterium that consumes the virgin steal walls
love the mesh idea tho any player will have this spawned under it will slowly be raised into the air is my understanding
someone mentioned makeing it hide from light? that would add a whole new ball game, but i disagree make its seek light, add to its prority list the ability to see if the next selected area is closer to a light source than the last if so flag the next roll/next priority placement to ether have a extra chance to roll and grow in the same direction by amieing up the roll to a 2-4 instead of a 1 in 3 chance to hopefully grow towards the light or before it cycle's thru's possable placements if closer to light, flag it to flip a coin and grow toward the light again or continue's to cycle its placement algarithum
reason i say towards the light so it seeks out light to block it off
love the mess, pathing the way the exspanding a mess out of neatly painted path absolute awsomeness
if i have said to much just delete ths if i arnt even close or you cant read it eh its still a huge pat on the back well done max, awsome flaya and a huge congrats to the ns team thats have put there thumb print on this, and the game, and tahnk you for leting use see the monsters creation
Fantastic stuff, by the way. It almost feels a shame that it's not being used for a game where this technology would have a huger effect (as in, the code used for the DI -were- the game, pretty much). Having said that...I'm sure when NS2 is released we'll be loving DI too much to give a crap ^_^
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would, actually naa this is perfect to excite us NS players
Quote that sums up this Feature
"Neat! Why can't any of the games coming from major dev house's have features like this?" only in Unknownworlds can it happen
I want this game now....
I like it fast. I would much rather SEE it grow around a new chamber / hive and then pause when it reaches some kind of range limit from the source.
Slow infestation wouldn't have nearly the cool impact, and in a fast-paced game might not have the same play-impact either.
To address some common questions:
- Yep, the video shows it growing very fast. We expect it will go quite slowly during normal play. Turn your back on it to build a couple structures and then you notice it's gotten closer.
- Yep, we expect the Gorge to be able to "grow" it faster with his bacterial spray, though we are just guessing. It's way too fun to "paint" with it to not plan on including this somehow.
- We're not sure about whether it will be required for alien structures or not (ala Starcraft). We'll have to try that.
- ...and yes, of course we plan to have something to burn it all away. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
And about the fact that it's "bulky" or "too thick". Remember that NS2 is not NS:S. In NS1 this would have been... difficult... I imagine. The game doesn't have to be exactly the same as it was, especially in elements such as this infestation creep thing (I know, my technical speech intimidates you all).
In fact, I'm glad they're changing it up some, making thicker creep, etc. It makes the game look and feel more alive, and I wouldn't really be all that excited for just a clone of NS with prettier graphics (though I'd personally like major gameplay elements preserved, and extended, in addition to all the other cool changes that will no doubt be made).
Thanks for the media demo.
omai! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />