After the patch, it's all gravy. Perfect right now.
I even think Seige turrets are fine. Considering some of the other advantages that Aliens have, it's necessary to balance the tide of battle. Though they should be fixed as not to attack units (they do).
Hmm.. i played aliens alot pre-patch because marines were so stacked . i find im much better at aliens and not that good as marines, so when i play marines i ussually lose. But with a good team , any side can win , and thats what it comes down to teamwork. i think the actual gameplay is very balanced.
After a bit of thought I have come to the conclusion that it changes from map to map. It seems now after the server patch that aliens win eclipse every time, for example.
I'm going to have to go with Option B, but with exceptions in different situations:
The Marines are underpowered at match start because they can get overrode by an alien swarm too easily at their starting position. I'm thinking a simple fix would be to have 2 starting sentry turrets at the start position.
The Aliens are underpowered when reduced down to one hive with the marines turreting against them because it's extremely hard to bounce back as they have no effective means to deal with turrets. In this situation, it becomes a very punishing boring game for the aliens, because there's no hope of them bouncing back.
The Aliens are underpowered in the case of a relatively even match against a competant team of marines. Reason being that the marines get the ultimate trump card to quickly and easily push the aliens back: The Siege Cannon. Nothing the aliens have can even compare to the marine's ability to pin down hive and resource positions with these, often from an unapproachable position.
ok i posted earlier that aliens were underpowered, however i left a comment suggestion that perhaps it was bad lag i had been dealing with that gave me that impression. it is now 1:00 am, i JUST FINISHED playing on a server that gave me a good ping, and i did very well as aliens. there fore i revoke my vote. i'll go w\ B.) balanced (as long as you can get a good ping!!)
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> (sry there was no lerk icon so i went with next best thing <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
#1 Their commanders are noobs (no offense meant in that, this will change in time)
#2 Most ppl playing marines love to go gung-ho and refuse to follow orders (i played as commander on one game, and ONE person out of 6 actually followed my orders. then i got voted out b\c the retards wanted HA, and jetpacks, etc, however since they didnt follow my orders so wehad no resources. somehow this was my fault. still trying to figure this one out.)
#3 every marine expects the commander to watch his every breath. this just simply cannot be done, there is too much going on to watch EVERY person that intently. something should be done about this. perhaps a secondary commander (or lt. or whatever u wanna call him) could be used to take care of the more menial tasks, such as dropping health and ammo. this would allow the commander to concentrate more on the major issues at hand and relieve him of a great deal of stress. (noone wants commander ne more, its too freakin stressful. games are supposed to be fun, not nerve-racking.)
ok, so i lied, that was more than one thing. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Fades do a lotta damage because aliens are naturally solo artists. Yes, one HMG will NOT kill a fade. But there shouldn't be just one HMG combatting a fade, there should be 3, 4, hell, the whole troop should be moving together. If they're not, they're not playing right, and they're not playing to win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The trouble is, what happens when the aliens are working together too? As in, ok sure, it takes more than one HMG to take out one fade. Travel together, work in a group, I get that. But what happens when there's three or four fades travelling together? What tends to happen is that all the humans die.
What the Marines have in invincible HA and siege turrets they lack in super wise commander strategies that are needed. Once commanders learn how to place turrets effectively, and when to expand, the teams will be pretty equal. That said, I think the aliens have a slight advantage, because early on they have a combat advantage over the marines. Lower the cost of the shotgun to 10 or 15 and we'll see the marines win again. I think the wise thing to do is wait for the commanders to improve, and if aliens win constantly in a month lower the shotgun cost.
but the marines are using to the old state (they are overpowered) and have not yet developed the extensive skills the aliens have so it APPEARS to be sided for the aliens.
I think the game is balanced nicely <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> EAch team takes a ton of skill at playing that team to win. Good Job NS TEAM <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--scitzo85z+Nov 10 2002, 01:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (scitzo85z @ Nov 10 2002, 01:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->#3 every marine expects the commander to watch his every breath. this just simply cannot be done, there is too much going on to watch EVERY person that intently. something should be done about this. perhaps a secondary commander (or lt. or whatever u wanna call him) could be used to take care of the more menial tasks, such as dropping health and ammo. this would allow the commander to concentrate more on the major issues at hand and relieve him of a great deal of stress. (noone wants commander ne more, its too freakin stressful. games are supposed to be fun, not nerve-racking.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Options to help prevent this have been discussed, such as the addition of a medical healing kit, that a marine could carry. This would help releive the commanders task of dropping health all the time.
Also a "Backpack" upgrade was suggested, that would work similarily to the Jetpack or HA upgrade, ie if a marine is carrying a backpack, can't use a jetpack or HA. The backpack would allow the marine to carry a large quatity of ammo, that could be doled out to members of the squad, when they "Use" him. Kinda like a mobile armoury, but with a finite amount of ammo, but still a decent amount. A speed penalty would be applied to the marine as well.
Both of these suggestions would help lessen the micromanagement issues for the commander, without degrading the needed teamplay element. The marines would still need to stick together, and protect there "medic" or "ammo" guys.
Oh yeah, back on topic... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Vote B) Balanced
Its all a teamplay issue. The team that works together better, wins. Simple as that. Its more critical for the marines, but if the aliens are all for each other, for example, they all go Gorge early game, the aliens are screwed.
Simple equation: Teamwork = Win Single Play = Lose
I have to say that I agree with a lot of the people here, though I'm kind of iffy about it all. True, Skulk rushes seem unfair, but then again, so do marine rushes at the beginning of the game when they shoot at you right when you spawn. Spamming grenades at hives is unfair, and so are fades spamming marine bases. It's hard to kill a marine with armor, hmg, and grenade launchers, and its also hard to kill a couple of onos and fades.
It really depends on the people you are playing with. If one side rushes and spams, then if the other does not, then that side will eventually lose.
The only thing thats not quite balanced are the seige turrets. If you have a couple of those in or near your hive, then you're pretty much done for because you will not be able to build defenses or virtually anything without it getting blown to pieces. Then again, it really depends on how fair the people are.
Then, of course, if you believe that weapons are balanced, you must take more into consideration. For example, the commander can give health, armor, and ammo at any time for a pretty low cost. Aliens, however, are completly vulnerable when in the process of getting armor or health. Even health takes a while to get if you only have one gorge with you or a defense chamber.
marines losing a lot can be attributed to certain things nubi marine commanders keep doing.
secure choke points and hives, not individual resource points.
an HA with HMG can hold back a hive 1 (or 2) alien attack better than sentry turrets (note, this requires someone who can aim on the same continent as the alien).
lack of phase portal implementation.
lack of ability to assign duties and distinguish them. aliens have it a bit easier in this respect... skulks know they're an ambush/scout class, which can never stand up to ANY marine head on. they turn into a gorg, and they know that they're a builder/healer class, and has about as much potential to get frags as those cockroaches we used to squish in half life. they turn into a lerk, and they know they're a utility class... and know while we can kill some marines without light armor pretty easily... it's nowhere near effective as attacking with a fade. turn into a fade, and they know they're an attack class, but without defensive chambers to run to that the gorgs build, and lerks using umbra to make them into the HA counter they were meant to be... they are just wasting time and giving an opportunity for the marines to save up resources for better stuff.
marines on the other hand, are dropped identical to one another. the only thing that distinguishes their roles are the equipment they carry, and they can also have multiple roles, and in this respect, they are way more powerful than the aliens. anyone can be a medic, hell, ha'd marines can be a medic, medics (welders basically) can also be grenade backup... and they can also be in charge of building. hell, they have seperate roles, even without equipment. who's the builders and who's the one who's providing backup and defense? who's the scout? hell, a naked marine stealth rushing a hive is almost like a town portal in WC for the aliens... watch as they ignore all encounters while they rush to defend the hive. are they that stupid? maybe... or maybe if you hid your marines for the time needed to make it seem like they're rushing a hive, while in reality your just waiting for the alien advance to stop and retreat... marines are full of tactics like this you can do, if only people knew what to do exactly when to do it.
inability to understand how much those armor and weapons your wearing cost. like someone said before, rushing after a death to an HMG left behind in combat is sometimes more important than standing at base to stock up your weakly lmg with a whopping 250 bullets.
u know what it takes to defend a hive early on the in game? a phase portal, a few HAs in HMGs, a grenade launcher, a welder/builder staying out of combat, and constant, constant movement. omg they're chomping on the resources we left undefended! we're going to panic about one stupid resource point for five minutes, when it takes 2 to advance to that 1-2 resource nodes nearest that hive you just started defending.
i think NS is unbalanced in that 90% of the random servers i seem to drop into contains more n00bs than good players who know how to play a role-based game. NS is an RTS... and unfortunately (or fortunately), players spawn and are given the choice on what they want to be... and is not pre-chosen for them at the start (ala TFC). when your playing an RTS, you have individual units who work cohesively as a team... all with very different and sometimes unexciting jobs... but since they're not being controlled by lamer ex-CS noobs who suddenly don't have their OGC working, they'd always rather do something dumb than try to learn the game properly. sometimes i see so much retarded players, i can't even imagine what the hell they're thinking... but i guess i can have hope in humanity and blame the newness of the game... though we all know a year from now there will still be hundreds of retards and noobs running around in NS servers not following commands, not defending hives, and going rambo style with an LMG attempting to kill an onos.
I dunno. Whenever I command, I'm always torn between giving my marines better weapons/upgrades, or trying to secure a nozzle. I never have enough money for both.
secure places like holo room with 2 nozzles... sure... but one nozzle? u gotta be kidding me. what does it take to secure a nozzle... 40 resources for turret factory, 19 resources for each turret you build... that's enough to equip your team. hell, a couple of HAs, even with just LMGs is enough to "secure a nozzle". your supposed to secure hives, not nozzles... this isn't turret farm country anymore.
But then where is the money to defend the main base? Where does the money come from to establish a new base in a hive room?
I dunno, it seems like it comes down to hive control, which it shouldn't.
It should come down to resource control and tech choices by each team--given an equal number of resource nodes, the aliens and marines should match each other 50/50 no matter how many hives the aliens have, assuming that the marine commander isn't incompetent and has spent money on upgrades.
Here's what a typical game (5v5) goes like for me (if I command):
Scramble to command center. Put down two infantry portals. Thirty seconds later, here come the skulks. Hope to god my marines survive. Step out of the comm center to kill the skulk that is biting it. Get back in the comm center when all the skulks are dead. Put down a turret factory. It is halfway finished when... ...the skulks come back. They are killed eventually, but it takes away precious time. Place three or four turrets. The skulks come back after two turrets are built. Kill skulks (they go faster this time with the help of the turrets), build armory. Waypoint marines to a hive room. Build turret factory. Skulks attack main base again, but are defeated by mines. Gorge wanders into hive area where we're building. We kill it. Turret factory up. Skulks come again, killing marines. They destroy the turret factory as we try to get back there in time. Build another turret factory. Fend off more skulks. Put up armory for mines. Place mines. Skulks suicide into them. Place turrets. Skulks come after two turrets finish building. Kill off marines. Send marines back to hive area. One or two of the four are killed off by an ambush (before they can reach the hive area). Get more turrets up, a resource collector up. Have a marine scout the closest nozzle. He finds alien structures. Upgrade turret factory. Place siege turret. Wait. Fades come. Fades eliminate hive outpost. Money that could've been used on shotguns went to siege turret (oops). We lose.
"I dunno, it seems like it comes down to hive control, which it shouldn't."
i dunno, ask the dev team, but i'm pretty sure the game is balanced for the 2 hive vs. 1 marine secured hive scenario... this is the game that they're aiming at... skulks vs. lmgs, lerk/fades vs. HAs/HMGs/GLs. if they do get hive 3 up, 70 resources for onos does not come by quick, nor do they evolve that fast... there's still a good chance, early on in the hive 3 scenario, to take it over and do some damage control.
the game is basically "stop alien infestation". if they've got 3 hives (and the 2-3 resource nodes in between each hive)... your supposed to lose, because you didn't stop the aliens from "infesting".
if an NS dev tells me that the game is designed for a 3 hive vs. teched marine scenario, then i'm saying you built the game and maps just a wee bit off-base.
i don't like to argue, since it's pointless arguing with people with a thick skull (not that i'm saying you are) but i think you got the theme of the game all wrong here. let me do what a good marine scenario should look like.
--
get into command center, put down infantry portals. marines get into strategic positions to defend against skulk rush (ie: not huddled together, in corners, and blind spots from aliens rushing thru doors) while one builds. this requires somewhat good aim, which i don't doubt you all have... hopefully.
put down ammo depot for ammo replenishment, and resume defense, let lone builder continue building the typical build order from here. turret factory (flush against wall if possible, with 2 turrets on either side, which should also be in view of marine base choke points)... place THREE turrets... placed correctly that's all you'll need... in some marine bases, you may need four.
head down as a squad, securing resource nodes... dropping health packs and having a welder isn't such a bad idea either. builder/medic/welder is the support unit, he does not kill, all he does is build, weld, and hide when action comes.
tech up at main base, as well as putting up phase portal... secure more resource nodes on way to hive... maybe send one lone marine, stealthy-like, and harass any gorgs he might encounter, as well as hide in shadows etc. (aliens aren't the only ones who can be stealthy)
as soon as you get to hive, build a phase portal... saving enough resources by skimping on the turret defenses on each resource will have your guys decked out in better gear in no time... sure it might just be your best guy in an HA/HMG and some backup LMGs... but remember... a welder healing him, and a phase portal nearby and congratulations... you've just kept up with alien techs... and in some cases, surpassed them.
from here on, it's the commanders choice on what kind of strategy he wants to use. he could turtle up in the third hive... and fight head to head with hive 2 aliens, or build sparse defenses in that hive, enough just to keep basic skulks and lerks from taking it over... and move to the next hive and hope that your firepower at this time would be stronger than what you'll encounter as you get there. Grenade launchers would be a good idea as well.
another strategy, based on the marine turtle in third hive scenario, is that you build your main base there, build command chair and recycle your main base...
again, your thinking the wrong way... and it shows with your first comment
"It should come down to resource control and tech choices by each team--given an equal number of resource nodes, the aliens and marines should match each other 50/50 no matter how many hives the aliens have, assuming that the marine commander isn't incompetent and has spent money on upgrades."
look at the maps... if aliens have 3 hives up, they have more resource nodes in their vicinity than the marines. the maps for the most part looked to be designed this way. like you said, resource control. and that means not putting up mini-bases that only hold off the opposition for a little bit... this goes the same with alien expansion... and is actually easier for aliens a bit... at least they don't need to take into account vents when trying to control choke points... they can almost always assume which corridors the marines would expand to based on the recon info skulks give them on which direction they seem to be headed...
the game is balanced for the most part... there may be a need for grenades, siege cannons, and fades to be tweaked a bit... but those are minor things.
PulseTo create, to create and escape.Join Date: 2002-08-29Member: 1248Members, Constellation
(B)-Balanced Now that the patch is out aliens win 9/10 times, this is because sitting around in your base spamming N33d TeH hMG!!!1111 doesn't work anymore due to the rp bug being fixed, yet the marines still do just that regardless of the fact that doing so will get them slaughtered. More often than not I win as aliens without even bothering to work as a team because the marines don't ever move 12 meters from thier base. One time I did lose as an alien post-patch though, I never saw a lone marine (marine tip: stay in pairs!) and heard "Objective Completed" a lot, coincidence? I think not.
oh yeah... this does not take into account the 90% retard/noob (not your fault, keep trying this is a great game) population at the moment... it'll take time until we can hop into a random server and have a 75% and up players that know the game.
yes, the way marines are meant to be played isn't the way version 1.00 played out. resources are scarce. repeat it with me... you can't afford turret defenses everywhere you want if the alien team is even half competent... this is the one major mistake i've been seeing marines loss do... i just laugh everytime i see a turret factory up next to a lone resource point... thanks commander, you've just helped us delay HAs that would definitely rape us right about now.
I thought the game was balanced before 1.01, the thing making it unbalanced was that ppl didn't know how to play aliens, and they STILL don't... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> I usually end up as the only attacker early in the game on my team as everyone goes Gorge, but we still have a chance to win because of me skulking the marines so effectively... it's not unusual that I have the highest score on my team... something like 16 kills when the rest has 0-5... But as I said, balanced before 1.01...
did i miss anything JoeBoCrack? or do you think i'm a deranged fool who doesn't know what he's talking about...
and yes... i do understand that doing something like i said is almost impossible on a team full of noobs at the moment... yes... playing on random servers will net you that one command chair rusher who recycles everything, that team that goes 90% gorge... that team who goes solo in every direction, trying to take out defenses by themselves (on both sides, be it ot/dts... or turrets) and of course... i love this... the guy who spams "I NEED HMG!!!111" 5 minutes into the game... and then gets himself killed when he rushes by himself and blames the commander for his death saying "if i had HMG i wouldn't have died N00b!"
Comments
e) The Galvamacks <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
After the patch, it's all gravy. Perfect right now.
I even think Seige turrets are fine. Considering some of the other advantages that Aliens have, it's necessary to balance the tide of battle. Though they should be fixed as not to attack units (they do).
I play both, my brother only plays alien and I have not seen a marine team win once on any server maybe Im just a marine curse..................
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
b)
Marines NEED a good commander...
so on pubs marines loose 75% of the time....
but it is not unbalnced..
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
'Nuff said <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The Marines are underpowered at match start because they can get overrode by an alien swarm too easily at their starting position. I'm thinking a simple fix would be to have 2 starting sentry turrets at the start position.
The Aliens are underpowered when reduced down to one hive with the marines turreting against them because it's extremely hard to bounce back as they have no effective means to deal with turrets. In this situation, it becomes a very punishing boring game for the aliens, because there's no hope of them bouncing back.
The Aliens are underpowered in the case of a relatively even match against a competant team of marines. Reason being that the marines get the ultimate trump card to quickly and easily push the aliens back: The Siege Cannon. Nothing the aliens have can even compare to the marine's ability to pin down hive and resource positions with these, often from an unapproachable position.
I also played alot of Aliens on 1.00 so now i'm really poor as marines, so i'm not totally sure about the marine side.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> (sry there was no lerk icon so i went with next best thing <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
reason marines are losing now:
#1 Their commanders are noobs (no offense meant in that, this will change in time)
#2 Most ppl playing marines love to go gung-ho and refuse to follow orders
(i played as commander on one game, and ONE person out of 6 actually followed my orders. then i got
voted out b\c the retards wanted HA, and jetpacks, etc, however since they didnt follow my orders
so wehad no resources. somehow this was my fault. still trying to figure this one out.)
#3 every marine expects the commander to watch his every breath. this just simply cannot be done, there is too much going on to watch EVERY person that intently. something should be done about this.
perhaps a secondary commander (or lt. or whatever u wanna call him) could be used to take care of the more menial tasks, such as dropping health and ammo. this would allow the commander to concentrate more on the major issues at hand and relieve him of a great deal of stress. (noone wants commander ne more, its too freakin stressful. games are supposed to be fun, not nerve-racking.)
ok, so i lied, that was more than one thing. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Fades do a lotta damage because aliens are naturally solo artists. Yes, one HMG will NOT kill a fade. But there shouldn't be just one HMG combatting a fade, there should be 3, 4, hell, the whole troop should be moving together. If they're not, they're not playing right, and they're not playing to win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The trouble is, what happens when the aliens are working together too? As in, ok sure, it takes more than one HMG to take out one fade. Travel together, work in a group, I get that. But what happens when there's three or four fades travelling together? What tends to happen is that all the humans die.
What the Marines have in invincible HA and siege turrets they lack in super wise commander strategies that are needed. Once commanders learn how to place turrets effectively, and when to expand, the teams will be pretty equal. That said, I think the aliens have a slight advantage, because early on they have a combat advantage over the marines. Lower the cost of the shotgun to 10 or 15 and we'll see the marines win again. I think the wise thing to do is wait for the commanders to improve, and if aliens win constantly in a month lower the shotgun cost.
but the marines are using to the old state (they are overpowered) and have not yet developed the extensive skills the aliens have so it APPEARS to be sided for the aliens.
I think the game is balanced nicely <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> EAch team takes a ton of skill at playing that team to win. Good Job NS TEAM <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
perhaps a secondary commander (or lt. or whatever u wanna call him) could be used to take care of the more menial tasks, such as dropping health and ammo. this would allow the commander to concentrate more on the major issues at hand and relieve him of a great deal of stress. (noone wants commander ne more, its too freakin stressful. games are supposed to be fun, not nerve-racking.)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Options to help prevent this have been discussed, such as the addition of a medical healing kit, that a marine could carry. This would help releive the commanders task of dropping health all the time.
Also a "Backpack" upgrade was suggested, that would work similarily to the Jetpack or HA upgrade, ie if a marine is carrying a backpack, can't use a jetpack or HA. The backpack would allow the marine to carry a large quatity of ammo, that could be doled out to members of the squad, when they "Use" him. Kinda like a mobile armoury, but with a finite amount of ammo, but still a decent amount. A speed penalty would be applied to the marine as well.
Both of these suggestions would help lessen the micromanagement issues for the commander, without degrading the needed teamplay element. The marines would still need to stick together, and protect there "medic" or "ammo" guys.
Oh yeah, back on topic... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Vote B) Balanced
Its all a teamplay issue. The team that works together better, wins. Simple as that. Its more critical for the marines, but if the aliens are all for each other, for example, they all go Gorge early game, the aliens are screwed.
Simple equation:
Teamwork = Win
Single Play = Lose
I have to say that I agree with a lot of the people here, though I'm kind of iffy about it all. True, Skulk rushes seem unfair, but then again, so do marine rushes at the beginning of the game when they shoot at you right when you spawn. Spamming grenades at hives is unfair, and so are fades spamming marine bases. It's hard to kill a marine with armor, hmg, and grenade launchers, and its also hard to kill a couple of onos and fades.
It really depends on the people you are playing with. If one side rushes and spams, then if the other does not, then that side will eventually lose.
The only thing thats not quite balanced are the seige turrets. If you have a couple of those in or near your hive, then you're pretty much done for because you will not be able to build defenses or virtually anything without it getting blown to pieces. Then again, it really depends on how fair the people are.
Then, of course, if you believe that weapons are balanced, you must take more into consideration. For example, the commander can give health, armor, and ammo at any time for a pretty low cost. Aliens, however, are completly vulnerable when in the process of getting armor or health. Even health takes a while to get if you only have one gorge with you or a defense chamber.
marines losing a lot can be attributed to certain things nubi marine commanders keep doing.
secure choke points and hives, not individual resource points.
an HA with HMG can hold back a hive 1 (or 2) alien attack better than sentry turrets (note, this requires someone who can aim on the same continent as the alien).
lack of phase portal implementation.
lack of ability to assign duties and distinguish them. aliens have it a bit easier in this respect... skulks know they're an ambush/scout class, which can never stand up to ANY marine head on. they turn into a gorg, and they know that they're a builder/healer class, and has about as much potential to get frags as those cockroaches we used to squish in half life. they turn into a lerk, and they know they're a utility class... and know while we can kill some marines without light armor pretty easily... it's nowhere near effective as attacking with a fade. turn into a fade, and they know they're an attack class, but without defensive chambers to run to that the gorgs build, and lerks using umbra to make them into the HA counter they were meant to be... they are just wasting time and giving an opportunity for the marines to save up resources for better stuff.
marines on the other hand, are dropped identical to one another. the only thing that distinguishes their roles are the equipment they carry, and they can also have multiple roles, and in this respect, they are way more powerful than the aliens. anyone can be a medic, hell, ha'd marines can be a medic, medics (welders basically) can also be grenade backup... and they can also be in charge of building. hell, they have seperate roles, even without equipment. who's the builders and who's the one who's providing backup and defense? who's the scout? hell, a naked marine stealth rushing a hive is almost like a town portal in WC for the aliens... watch as they ignore all encounters while they rush to defend the hive. are they that stupid? maybe... or maybe if you hid your marines for the time needed to make it seem like they're rushing a hive, while in reality your just waiting for the alien advance to stop and retreat... marines are full of tactics like this you can do, if only people knew what to do exactly when to do it.
inability to understand how much those armor and weapons your wearing cost. like someone said before, rushing after a death to an HMG left behind in combat is sometimes more important than standing at base to stock up your weakly lmg with a whopping 250 bullets.
u know what it takes to defend a hive early on the in game? a phase portal, a few HAs in HMGs, a grenade launcher, a welder/builder staying out of combat, and constant, constant movement. omg they're chomping on the resources we left undefended! we're going to panic about one stupid resource point for five minutes, when it takes 2 to advance to that 1-2 resource nodes nearest that hive you just started defending.
i think NS is unbalanced in that 90% of the random servers i seem to drop into contains more n00bs than good players who know how to play a role-based game. NS is an RTS... and unfortunately (or fortunately), players spawn and are given the choice on what they want to be... and is not pre-chosen for them at the start (ala TFC). when your playing an RTS, you have individual units who work cohesively as a team... all with very different and sometimes unexciting jobs... but since they're not being controlled by lamer ex-CS noobs who suddenly don't have their OGC working, they'd always rather do something dumb than try to learn the game properly. sometimes i see so much retarded players, i can't even imagine what the hell they're thinking... but i guess i can have hope in humanity and blame the newness of the game... though we all know a year from now there will still be hundreds of retards and noobs running around in NS servers not following commands, not defending hives, and going rambo style with an LMG attempting to kill an onos.
that's the problem.
secure places like holo room with 2 nozzles... sure... but one nozzle? u gotta be kidding me. what does it take to secure a nozzle... 40 resources for turret factory, 19 resources for each turret you build... that's enough to equip your team. hell, a couple of HAs, even with just LMGs is enough to "secure a nozzle". your supposed to secure hives, not nozzles... this isn't turret farm country anymore.
I dunno, it seems like it comes down to hive control, which it shouldn't.
It should come down to resource control and tech choices by each team--given an equal number of resource nodes, the aliens and marines should match each other 50/50 no matter how many hives the aliens have, assuming that the marine commander isn't incompetent and has spent money on upgrades.
Here's what a typical game (5v5) goes like for me (if I command):
Scramble to command center. Put down two infantry portals.
Thirty seconds later, here come the skulks.
Hope to god my marines survive. Step out of the comm center to kill the skulk that is biting it.
Get back in the comm center when all the skulks are dead.
Put down a turret factory. It is halfway finished when...
...the skulks come back.
They are killed eventually, but it takes away precious time.
Place three or four turrets.
The skulks come back after two turrets are built.
Kill skulks (they go faster this time with the help of the turrets), build armory.
Waypoint marines to a hive room. Build turret factory.
Skulks attack main base again, but are defeated by mines.
Gorge wanders into hive area where we're building. We kill it.
Turret factory up. Skulks come again, killing marines. They destroy the turret factory as we try to get back there in time.
Build another turret factory.
Fend off more skulks.
Put up armory for mines.
Place mines. Skulks suicide into them.
Place turrets.
Skulks come after two turrets finish building. Kill off marines.
Send marines back to hive area. One or two of the four are killed off by an ambush (before they can reach the hive area). Get more turrets up, a resource collector up. Have a marine scout the closest nozzle. He finds alien structures.
Upgrade turret factory.
Place siege turret.
Wait.
Fades come.
Fades eliminate hive outpost.
Money that could've been used on shotguns went to siege turret (oops).
We lose.
i dunno, ask the dev team, but i'm pretty sure the game is balanced for the 2 hive vs. 1 marine secured hive scenario... this is the game that they're aiming at... skulks vs. lmgs, lerk/fades vs. HAs/HMGs/GLs. if they do get hive 3 up, 70 resources for onos does not come by quick, nor do they evolve that fast... there's still a good chance, early on in the hive 3 scenario, to take it over and do some damage control.
the game is basically "stop alien infestation". if they've got 3 hives (and the 2-3 resource nodes in between each hive)... your supposed to lose, because you didn't stop the aliens from "infesting".
if an NS dev tells me that the game is designed for a 3 hive vs. teched marine scenario, then i'm saying you built the game and maps just a wee bit off-base.
i don't like to argue, since it's pointless arguing with people with a thick skull (not that i'm saying you are) but i think you got the theme of the game all wrong here. let me do what a good marine scenario should look like.
--
get into command center, put down infantry portals. marines get into strategic positions to defend against skulk rush (ie: not huddled together, in corners, and blind spots from aliens rushing thru doors) while one builds. this requires somewhat good aim, which i don't doubt you all have... hopefully.
put down ammo depot for ammo replenishment, and resume defense, let lone builder continue building the typical build order from here. turret factory (flush against wall if possible, with 2 turrets on either side, which should also be in view of marine base choke points)... place THREE turrets... placed correctly that's all you'll need... in some marine bases, you may need four.
head down as a squad, securing resource nodes... dropping health packs and having a welder isn't such a bad idea either. builder/medic/welder is the support unit, he does not kill, all he does is build, weld, and hide when action comes.
tech up at main base, as well as putting up phase portal... secure more resource nodes on way to hive... maybe send one lone marine, stealthy-like, and harass any gorgs he might encounter, as well as hide in shadows etc. (aliens aren't the only ones who can be stealthy)
as soon as you get to hive, build a phase portal... saving enough resources by skimping on the turret defenses on each resource will have your guys decked out in better gear in no time... sure it might just be your best guy in an HA/HMG and some backup LMGs... but remember... a welder healing him, and a phase portal nearby and congratulations... you've just kept up with alien techs... and in some cases, surpassed them.
from here on, it's the commanders choice on what kind of strategy he wants to use. he could turtle up in the third hive... and fight head to head with hive 2 aliens, or build sparse defenses in that hive, enough just to keep basic skulks and lerks from taking it over... and move to the next hive and hope that your firepower at this time would be stronger than what you'll encounter as you get there. Grenade launchers would be a good idea as well.
another strategy, based on the marine turtle in third hive scenario, is that you build your main base there, build command chair and recycle your main base...
again, your thinking the wrong way... and it shows with your first comment
"It should come down to resource control and tech choices by each team--given an equal number of resource nodes, the aliens and marines should match each other 50/50 no matter how many hives the aliens have, assuming that the marine commander isn't incompetent and has spent money on upgrades."
look at the maps... if aliens have 3 hives up, they have more resource nodes in their vicinity than the marines. the maps for the most part looked to be designed this way. like you said, resource control. and that means not putting up mini-bases that only hold off the opposition for a little bit... this goes the same with alien expansion... and is actually easier for aliens a bit... at least they don't need to take into account vents when trying to control choke points... they can almost always assume which corridors the marines would expand to based on the recon info skulks give them on which direction they seem to be headed...
the game is balanced for the most part... there may be a need for grenades, siege cannons, and fades to be tweaked a bit... but those are minor things.
Now that the patch is out aliens win 9/10 times, this is because sitting around in your base spamming N33d TeH hMG!!!1111 doesn't work anymore due to the rp bug being fixed, yet the marines still do just that regardless of the fact that doing so will get them slaughtered. More often than not I win as aliens without even bothering to work as a team because the marines don't ever move 12 meters from thier base. One time I did lose as an alien post-patch though, I never saw a lone marine (marine tip: stay in pairs!) and heard "Objective Completed" a lot, coincidence? I think not.
yes, the way marines are meant to be played isn't the way version 1.00 played out. resources are scarce. repeat it with me... you can't afford turret defenses everywhere you want if the alien team is even half competent... this is the one major mistake i've been seeing marines loss do... i just laugh everytime i see a turret factory up next to a lone resource point... thanks commander, you've just helped us delay HAs that would definitely rape us right about now.
I usually end up as the only attacker early in the game on my team as everyone goes Gorge, but we still have a chance to win because of me skulking the marines so effectively... it's not unusual that I have the highest score on my team... something like 16 kills when the rest has 0-5...
But as I said, balanced before 1.01...
and yes... i do understand that doing something like i said is almost impossible on a team full of noobs at the moment... yes... playing on random servers will net you that one command chair rusher who recycles everything, that team that goes 90% gorge... that team who goes solo in every direction, trying to take out defenses by themselves (on both sides, be it ot/dts... or turrets) and of course... i love this... the guy who spams "I NEED HMG!!!111" 5 minutes into the game... and then gets himself killed when he rushes by himself and blames the commander for his death saying "if i had HMG i wouldn't have died N00b!"