Jury's still out on the SG/TF tweak though. I think that in the next little while aliens will figure out exactly how vunerable sentry fields are and stop sitting around the corner hitting them with Acid Rockets. But by the same token, maybe the Marines will come up with some new way to defend.
i only have 1 problem i saw this one strat this guy was a hella good commander. he went straight to HMG and they had HMG before it was possible to have a second hive up. thats my only gripe =(
Seems its overwhelmingly so. To those who voted for C, the only reason Marines aren't winning is because marine tactics are still in the works. If you noticed in the first week of the release, marines dominated, and dominated easily. The alien players got a LOT more experienced, and figured out strategies to counter a lot of things. The marines, on the other hand, were just walking all over the aliens, using the same strategies. Turret forest and HA/GL. It solved both defensive and offensive woes, so nobody cared to find different strategies.
Now that marines have been crippled in a way that those strategies are now not-so-effective, all marine players have to devise new strategies so counter the aliens. Of course, such strategies are already there, but its still going to be a while before the n00b half of the community catches on, and I think we'll see some damn good games when that happens.
Things like seige cannons/GL's/HA+HMG combo's may be frustrating, but as an avid alien fan, I know that we have counters to all those and thats teamplay + intelligent players. So yes, balanced.
Perhaps a few tweeks are needed here and there, but there's nothing that seriously unbalanced the game.
My only 2 suggestions for change would be to let marines start with a spawn to prevent the skulk rush from crushing them under a crappy commander, and to give siege turrets a slight nerf. Less blast radius maybe.
Like I said before, player stratigys for aliens are growing faster then marine ones hence why some people think aliens have a advantage. Suggestion for marines, secure base, build observatory, build phase gate, go to a hive(empty hopefully), build turrets and phasegate and resource, move to the next hive and continue. The hives are the few most important places. Let the resources outside your base get taken, then siege them to death. It works well, with 1 hive aliens have all kinds of problems with taking out well placed turrets.
I've played only a few games after the patch. First I played a very long and even game as an alien and won. Then I switched to marines in the second game. We were completely dominating. Then the teams got uneven so I switched to aliens and whoa... after a very hard struggle we won! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Then my third game I played as marines and we owned the aliens.
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> is still damn powerful but once the buildings in it's range are gone, the aliens can take the turrets down pretty easily by rushing them with everything they have. After that they can rebuild the place.
i thought it was balanced before the patch <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
B, all the way. i think Marines are just a little surprised that one guy cant win it for them anymore.
because, pre-patch, the aliens were FORCED to work together. not for marines. and now the aliens have a slight leg-up because they have always had to work. marines just lost their silver spoon...
GFG to all the guys who make NS what it has become. i simply CANT WAIT to start clanning <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
it is true that an alien team that can work together can rape marines
however, in a match between well organized marines and well organized aliens, marines will win.
this could be fixed with a very slight moderation. maybe a 15% armor increase for aliens or a weak point in marine HA's. (very very difficult to take out a marine with a Heavy Machine Gun and Heavy Armor)
then again, it may just be the lag i've been experiencing lately that causes me to die as aliens so easily.
bye the way, love the <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> ceiling crawl. hehe.
Once marines learn to give their turret factory sentry cover on all sides, and to build multiple turret factories in an area (overlapping coverage) it will balance out. They also need to defend their outposts with human bodies.
Like said before Marines tend to run around like they have their head cut off. They need to work together securing and moving out area after area.
I agree that the sulk rush is a little iffy... but if the marines work together they can overcome it Mainly the marines have to have some people build some watch the entrances.
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> = fine, aliens just have to make enough def chambers, and make sure to not let the marines build that close.
Considering that some retail FPS games (who only have to worry about gun balance) screw it up, the NS team has done very well, nevermind the fact that they had the RTS tech tree balance to work out too.
I think the marines are undepowered at the moment, but thats probably because of reasons already stated in this thread. I'll just have to play as them more.
For a little while I wondered if the Fade's armor was too high, or regen on an Onos was too powerful. Then I played more and saw what Siege turrets did to a hive. And I tried commanding and watched as the idiot marines went rambo and died constantly. It's balanced fine. But it's all about teamwork too. Aliens are just more organized lately, I think because when the teambalancer wasn't there, the better players would join aliens to even things out.
While it is possible to win as marines when you have a very good commander, right now it's just too hard. The commander either has to choose between upgrades, handing out new equipment, or expanding. If he does not expand to a hive location, the aliens will win. If he does not hand out new equipment or upgrade, the marines die easily.
I don't see why they improved aliens in the patch while increasing the costs of lots of marine equipment and decreasing the effectiveness of lots of marine equipment.
Fades are a whole lot better than their 1.00 counterparts. That's fine, except on some maps, it really, really sucks. For instance, I don't remember the name, but there's one map where a fade can park his butt down and fling acid rockets with ease from a vent. That'd be fine and dandy if marines could counter it somewhat feasibly, but right now, you have a choice between sitting there and taking it, dropping a jetpack down and watching your JP user die after two acid rockets hit him, or trying to get grenades inside the vent, which usually doesn't work very well, as the fade simply runs away.
Right now you can't kill a fade with an HMG even with weapon upgrades. They do 60 dmg/sec, which is a lot. It's like fades throw skulk bites at people now.
IMHO it would've been best had they either just neutered marines, or powered up the aliens, but not both.
Also, while it can be easy for a commander to win, it's also very, very hard to combat a skulk rush and get the money needed to tech up for strategies other than "run at the hive and then die"
Marines are usually forced to choose between defending their main base or trying to capture a resource node in vain.
The reason it can be so hard for marines to win on pubs is because often, very incompetent commanders just take up the commandering spot and do jack **obscenity**. With the aliens, responsibility for the team is spread out to everyone--if the commander on the team happens to be dumb, then the team is screwed.
Strategically, a good commander will almost always be able to meet or even edge out the strategies of the Aliens simply because of the centralized build and ordering system that he controls. Thus, I don't really think that there are a whole lot of obvious problems with marines verse aliens, so long as they possess a strategic advantage in their commander. This isn't to say that some weapons might need balancing--if some weapons prove to be too effective in doing their job (i.e. the entire team throwing their weight against something and failing), they should be appropriately fixed with some testing.
I think it will always be a given that there will always be stupid commanders and whatnot that just screw up our games, due to the increasing popularity of Natural Selection (with more and more newbies filling in the ranks). My argument is that with a good commander, aliens and marines seem pretty balanced, but without a good commander, the marines are simply screwed. I really think that the entire commandering system should be looked at--not the idea of a commander commandering marines, but the options marines have when their commander's dumb--ejecting the commander, or maybe a commander "vote in" system, or even some kind of priority system for people who prove to be better commanders than others.
Pubs will always be plagued with stupid commanders. While its all fair and game to say that the game is balanced when there is a competent commander in the command pod, if a significant number of commanders on pubs continue to do almost nothing for the team, then there should be some serious considerations made for how the best commanders can be selected for the marine team.
Finally, I think that some maps present a natural imbalance for the aliens as well. Small maps that have aliens close to the marine spawn on start always face the possibility of a quick alien rush that takes out the first initial marines, while other maps that have tunnels that lead straight up to the marine main base require the marines to put more emphasis on base defense from sneak attacks than on other maps.
While it is possible to win as marines when you have a very good commander, right now it's just too hard. The commander either has to choose between upgrades, handing out new equipment, or expanding. If he does not expand to a hive location, the aliens will win. If he does not hand out new equipment or upgrade, the marines die easily.
I don't see why they improved aliens in the patch while increasing the costs of lots of marine equipment and decreasing the effectiveness of lots of marine equipment.
Fades are a whole lot better than their 1.00 counterparts. That's fine, except on some maps, it really, really sucks. For instance, I don't remember the name, but there's one map where a fade can park his butt down and fling acid rockets with ease from a vent. That'd be fine and dandy if marines could counter it somewhat feasibly, but right now, you have a choice between sitting there and taking it, dropping a jetpack down and watching your JP user die after two acid rockets hit him, or trying to get grenades inside the vent, which usually doesn't work very well, as the fade simply runs away.
Right now you can't kill a fade with an HMG even with weapon upgrades. They do 60 dmg/sec, which is a lot. It's like fades throw skulk bites at people now.
IMHO it would've been best had they either just neutered marines, or powered up the aliens, but not both.
Also, while it can be easy for a commander to win, it's also very, very hard to combat a skulk rush and get the money needed to tech up for strategies other than "run at the hive and then die"
Marines are usually forced to choose between defending their main base or trying to capture a resource node in vain.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, I played on tiberion's server the other night, which handles 30 people on it with no lag whatsoever (Tiberion=my god). I went marines each time, because I like to join the supposed underdog side. It was amazing. I played with a team that actually traveled together in packs, they did what their commander said, and they didn't constantly run off on their own little missions rambo-style. And you know what. All 5 games I played, we won. The problem is that all the former 1.0 marine players are still technically noobs. They haven't had to try anything new or work for anything up til now. But when you get an experienced team together who realizes you have to work together to win, then you can achieve great things.
It is not too hard to win unless you have a good commander. It helps having a good commander, but remember, the commander isn't the largest portion of your team, the field soldiers are. Admittedly great commanders are in short supply, but people are still learning.
We had 13 skulks rush us right at the beginning of every new round, but because our troops didn't immediately rush out of the base before fortifying it, we held against those rushes every time.
Marines can win vs. three hives, I saw it two times the other night, I was part of it.
So an alien managed to get into a good hiding spot where its difficult to remove him. That's why its a good hiding spot, because it actually takes effort to overcome. Otherwise they wouldn't use it.
Fades do a lotta damage because aliens are naturally solo artists. Yes, one HMG will NOT kill a fade. But there shouldn't be just one HMG combatting a fade, there should be 3, 4, hell, the whole troop should be moving together. If they're not, they're not playing right, and they're not playing to win.
The benefit of having a commander who sees all the different routes around the map is that if you find it impossible to capture a resource node, take another path out of your base, and try for another node. One way may be less defended than others.
However, I think there are things on both sides that need to be changed. There are things in the game that are too powerful that are only balanced because the other team has something that is also overpowered.
The skulk rush needs to be prevented, a 3 minute long game is not much fun for either team. Yet the siege cannon needs to be heavily modified, if marines build one outside an enemy hive and then defend it heavily with both turrets and players there's not much the aliens can do to stop it.
I'm not really gonna go into detail about other things, but they do exist.
This is a team based game. If your a hero, it may help your team, but if everyone else sux, u most likely will not win. Considering only 30% of the ppl who play can be considered an avg player or above, how can we know what is balanced yet?
In other words, with the majority of n00bs running around on our teams, how can we alrdy say so-and-so is unbalanced?
I haven't quite played enough yet to get a good feeling, but as far as I can tell it's balanced except for the siege guns. Now wait until I explain!
Every time I've played as marine we've won because of commanders who understood how to place siege guns. As aliens, I've lost before, and from what I can see, the times we won were because of two things 1) no siege guns were placed well enough or when they were placed they were defended shoddily; and 2) the marines didn't focus on taking and keeping one hive location. It's not just one of those things that won it for the alien but both of them that was necessary.
There were a lot of times that this happened, but I think that this can be mostly attributed to the fact that there are a lot of newbie commanders out there. From what I can see people are learning to avoid the command post unless they're good though. And soon enough I think that marines will be back to winning the majority of the time.
So a little from column A, a little from column B please.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
B - balanced.
The Frontiermen must ensure that they block a hive early on. If they can hold that hive a really tough and interesting battle evolves. If not, the On NO!'s at least finishes the game quickly.
But true, a sucky commander will fubar the commanders completly.
Aliens arent that bad, but I think the problem is there isnt much of a requirment for teamwork. If the team was limited to 2 or 3 <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> 's then people would know who to protect. As it is now either theres to many <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> 's, not enough, or rarely theres just the right ammount.
If you can get a team of people where there are 2 <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->'s and ::slulk::'s keep the pressure up on Marines its a pretty good fight.
2 Big problems I see so far:
-Heavy Armor makes it very very very hard to be killed if your anything less then a Fade. If the commander spams health packs, forget it <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Aliens seem to have a cap on how many offensive structures they can build in an area. Where as I have played games where Marines had, literally, an entire floor of <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> 's. I know, if you take out the factory they go down, but its hard to run through 30 <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo-->'s to get to it.
-Alien's offensive structures need to do a bit more damage. Marines have much more HP then most Alien classes do, so even though both turrents do the same damage (i would guess) it affects Alien's more then Marines.
I would love to see a Armor/HP increase for the weaker Alien classes like the lurker and gorge, not a big one, but just enough so they dont go splat when a Marine breathes on them.
I wholeheartedly agree with Jack. It is just sick how much lead I can fill a fade with my nerfed HMG when he's standing next to a few Defensive Chambers. Bilebombs + Spores + Onos = Win. I don't care how good the marine team thinks they are, if they have 3 hives and the Kharaa have played aliens enough to know the above combination, they win.
No, I'm not some whiney Marine player. During 1.00, I played Aliens all the time due to the Marine team being way overpopulated. I lost. A lot, but still won a few through luck and skill. And as an Alien it is much too easy now. I'd drop 3 D-chambers a few ways out of their main base (so siege turrets couldn't attack) and I'd harass them. That's right, just ONE fade taking on an entire base. They could never touch me with their grenade launchers or their HMGs. They'd either blow themselves up or run after me (only to get raped by a few offensive chambers I set up as a safety measure. They'd wound me severly, I'd run away - get full life in about 15 seconds, and run back for more. Of course, I got tired of just making them angry and decided to end the game and go Onos. Finally assisting me after I tell them I've taken out their turret factory, the rest of my n00bish team comes to my assistance. Little to no resistance after that...
I do see some Marines win still, but good execution and veteran players are REQUIRED.
Brilliant Commander + Excellent Marine Teamwork = Good chance of winning Excellent Kharaa Teamwork = Good chance of winning
Green or semi good Commander + Excellent Marine Teamwork = Loss Brilliant Comander + n00bish, satisfactory, or downright crappy Marine Teamwork = Loss n00bish, satisfactory, or downright crappy Kharaa Teamwork = Loss
The Commander and can be (and usually is) a liability. I can't remember the name, but the map where the CC is in a secluded room which can only be reached via elevator for marines is EVIL. Skulk rushes are nigh invincible in this map. Or, just wait until the Marines go out to capture some resources and then run past the turrets easily (I've seen it and done it thousands of times <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->) to the CC and chomp away unhindered. No turrets fit in this room, and if you place any outside nearby, they don't shoot through the wall... Only dumb aliens lose on this map.
Then again, well place Siege Turrets are god-like. Seems when I'm an alien they use them very effectively, but when I'm Marine, my commander ignores me or is a n00b. I'm a damn good Commander. Need to learn to multi-task a bit more, but at least I know the secret to winning.
but i feel there needs to be some slight tweaking- 1) skulk rush at the beginning too strong (varies with map size, in smaller maps they are too strong) 2) limit to no. of turrets per factory or area 3) tweak siege turret 4) it seems easier for marines to make a comeback than aliens
Early game is unbalanced. Teams of equal skill should provide an easy Alien victory, due to the numbers behind the Alien economy and the weakness of early Marine weaponry.
If both teams manage to get into mid-game, it's also frustratingly easy to outfit 50%+ of your players with HA, 90% with HMG.. even with only half the map taken over. But Aliens can be loaded too. So the mid-game isn't so much imbalanced towards either team, but I do feel it's imbalanced within each team itself (ie the LMG/shotgun becomes totally unused.. lack of HA means quick death from Fades... Skulks become obsolete..)
Maybe <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> is too powerful. Limiting the number of <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> to one-per-factory could be a good solution, but again... the game is pretty balanced now... The best teamplayers the sure winners.
Comments
Jury's still out on the SG/TF tweak though. I think that in the next little while aliens will figure out exactly how vunerable sentry fields are and stop sitting around the corner hitting them with Acid Rockets. But by the same token, maybe the Marines will come up with some new way to defend.
i only have 1 problem i saw this one strat this guy was a hella good commander. he went straight to HMG and they had HMG before it was possible to have a second hive up. thats my only gripe =(
so the aliens _seem_ to win more than the marines, does that mean that until you see marines and aliens win 50/50 its balanced? i dont think so.
it depends on whos the more teamwork oriented team <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
Seems its overwhelmingly so. To those who voted for C, the only reason Marines aren't winning is because marine tactics are still in the works. If you noticed in the first week of the release, marines dominated, and dominated easily. The alien players got a LOT more experienced, and figured out strategies to counter a lot of things. The marines, on the other hand, were just walking all over the aliens, using the same strategies. Turret forest and HA/GL. It solved both defensive and offensive woes, so nobody cared to find different strategies.
Now that marines have been crippled in a way that those strategies are now not-so-effective, all marine players have to devise new strategies so counter the aliens. Of course, such strategies are already there, but its still going to be a while before the n00b half of the community catches on, and I think we'll see some damn good games when that happens.
Things like seige cannons/GL's/HA+HMG combo's may be frustrating, but as an avid alien fan, I know that we have counters to all those and thats teamplay + intelligent players. So yes, balanced.
Noobler
Perhaps a few tweeks are needed here and there, but there's nothing that seriously unbalanced the game.
My only 2 suggestions for change would be to let marines start with a spawn to prevent the skulk rush from crushing them under a crappy commander, and to give siege turrets a slight nerf. Less blast radius maybe.
Like I said before, player stratigys for aliens are growing faster then marine ones hence why some people think aliens have a advantage. Suggestion for marines, secure base, build observatory, build phase gate, go to a hive(empty hopefully), build turrets and phasegate and resource, move to the next hive and continue. The hives are the few most important places. Let the resources outside your base get taken, then siege them to death. It works well, with 1 hive aliens have all kinds of problems with taking out well placed turrets.
I've played only a few games after the patch. First I played a very long and even game as an alien and won. Then I switched to marines in the second game. We were completely dominating. Then the teams got uneven so I switched to aliens and whoa... after a very hard struggle we won! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Then my third game I played as marines and we owned the aliens.
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> is still damn powerful but once the buildings in it's range are gone, the aliens can take the turrets down pretty easily by rushing them with everything they have. After that they can rebuild the place.
B, all the way. i think Marines are just a little surprised that one guy cant win it for them anymore.
because, pre-patch, the aliens were FORCED to work together. not for marines. and now the aliens have a slight leg-up because they have always had to work. marines just lost their silver spoon...
GFG to all the guys who make NS what it has become. i simply CANT WAIT to start clanning <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
however, it is only a MINISCULE unbalance
it is true that an alien team that can work together can rape marines
however, in a match between well organized marines and well organized aliens, marines will win.
this could be fixed with a very slight moderation. maybe a 15% armor increase for aliens or a weak point in marine HA's. (very very difficult to take out a marine with a Heavy Machine Gun and Heavy Armor)
then again, it may just be the lag i've been experiencing lately that causes me to die as aliens so easily.
bye the way, love the <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> ceiling crawl. hehe.
Once marines learn to give their turret factory sentry cover on all sides, and to build multiple turret factories in an area (overlapping coverage) it will balance out. They also need to defend their outposts with human bodies.
Like said before Marines tend to run around like they have their head cut off. They need to work together securing and moving out area after area.
I agree that the sulk rush is a little iffy... but if the marines work together they can overcome it
Mainly the marines have to have some people build some watch the entrances.
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> = fine, aliens just have to make enough def chambers, and make sure to not let the marines build that close.
Considering that some retail FPS games (who only have to worry about gun balance) screw it up, the NS team has done very well, nevermind the fact that they had the RTS tech tree balance to work out too.
I think the marines are undepowered at the moment, but thats probably because of reasons already stated in this thread. I'll just have to play as them more.
For a little while I wondered if the Fade's armor was too high, or regen on an Onos was too powerful. Then I played more and saw what Siege turrets did to a hive. And I tried commanding and watched as the idiot marines went rambo and died constantly. It's balanced fine. But it's all about teamwork too. Aliens are just more organized lately, I think because when the teambalancer wasn't there, the better players would join aliens to even things out.
While it is possible to win as marines when you have a very good commander, right now it's just too hard. The commander either has to choose between upgrades, handing out new equipment, or expanding. If he does not expand to a hive location, the aliens will win. If he does not hand out new equipment or upgrade, the marines die easily.
I don't see why they improved aliens in the patch while increasing the costs of lots of marine equipment and decreasing the effectiveness of lots of marine equipment.
Fades are a whole lot better than their 1.00 counterparts. That's fine, except on some maps, it really, really sucks. For instance, I don't remember the name, but there's one map where a fade can park his butt down and fling acid rockets with ease from a vent. That'd be fine and dandy if marines could counter it somewhat feasibly, but right now, you have a choice between sitting there and taking it, dropping a jetpack down and watching your JP user die after two acid rockets hit him, or trying to get grenades inside the vent, which usually doesn't work very well, as the fade simply runs away.
Right now you can't kill a fade with an HMG even with weapon upgrades. They do 60 dmg/sec, which is a lot. It's like fades throw skulk bites at people now.
IMHO it would've been best had they either just neutered marines, or powered up the aliens, but not both.
Also, while it can be easy for a commander to win, it's also very, very hard to combat a skulk rush and get the money needed to tech up for strategies other than "run at the hive and then die"
Marines are usually forced to choose between defending their main base or trying to capture a resource node in vain.
The reason it can be so hard for marines to win on pubs is because often, very incompetent commanders just take up the commandering spot and do jack **obscenity**. With the aliens, responsibility for the team is spread out to everyone--if the commander on the team happens to be dumb, then the team is screwed.
Strategically, a good commander will almost always be able to meet or even edge out the strategies of the Aliens simply because of the centralized build and ordering system that he controls. Thus, I don't really think that there are a whole lot of obvious problems with marines verse aliens, so long as they possess a strategic advantage in their commander. This isn't to say that some weapons might need balancing--if some weapons prove to be too effective in doing their job (i.e. the entire team throwing their weight against something and failing), they should be appropriately fixed with some testing.
I think it will always be a given that there will always be stupid commanders and whatnot that just screw up our games, due to the increasing popularity of Natural Selection (with more and more newbies filling in the ranks). My argument is that with a good commander, aliens and marines seem pretty balanced, but without a good commander, the marines are simply screwed. I really think that the entire commandering system should be looked at--not the idea of a commander commandering marines, but the options marines have when their commander's dumb--ejecting the commander, or maybe a commander "vote in" system, or even some kind of priority system for people who prove to be better commanders than others.
Pubs will always be plagued with stupid commanders. While its all fair and game to say that the game is balanced when there is a competent commander in the command pod, if a significant number of commanders on pubs continue to do almost nothing for the team, then there should be some serious considerations made for how the best commanders can be selected for the marine team.
Finally, I think that some maps present a natural imbalance for the aliens as well. Small maps that have aliens close to the marine spawn on start always face the possibility of a quick alien rush that takes out the first initial marines, while other maps that have tunnels that lead straight up to the marine main base require the marines to put more emphasis on base defense from sneak attacks than on other maps.
While it is possible to win as marines when you have a very good commander, right now it's just too hard. The commander either has to choose between upgrades, handing out new equipment, or expanding. If he does not expand to a hive location, the aliens will win. If he does not hand out new equipment or upgrade, the marines die easily.
I don't see why they improved aliens in the patch while increasing the costs of lots of marine equipment and decreasing the effectiveness of lots of marine equipment.
Fades are a whole lot better than their 1.00 counterparts. That's fine, except on some maps, it really, really sucks. For instance, I don't remember the name, but there's one map where a fade can park his butt down and fling acid rockets with ease from a vent. That'd be fine and dandy if marines could counter it somewhat feasibly, but right now, you have a choice between sitting there and taking it, dropping a jetpack down and watching your JP user die after two acid rockets hit him, or trying to get grenades inside the vent, which usually doesn't work very well, as the fade simply runs away.
Right now you can't kill a fade with an HMG even with weapon upgrades. They do 60 dmg/sec, which is a lot. It's like fades throw skulk bites at people now.
IMHO it would've been best had they either just neutered marines, or powered up the aliens, but not both.
Also, while it can be easy for a commander to win, it's also very, very hard to combat a skulk rush and get the money needed to tech up for strategies other than "run at the hive and then die"
Marines are usually forced to choose between defending their main base or trying to capture a resource node in vain.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, I played on tiberion's server the other night, which handles 30 people on it with no lag whatsoever (Tiberion=my god). I went marines each time, because I like to join the supposed underdog side. It was amazing. I played with a team that actually traveled together in packs, they did what their commander said, and they didn't constantly run off on their own little missions rambo-style. And you know what. All 5 games I played, we won.
The problem is that all the former 1.0 marine players are still technically noobs. They haven't had to try anything new or work for anything up til now. But when you get an experienced team together who realizes you have to work together to win, then you can achieve great things.
It is not too hard to win unless you have a good commander. It helps having a good commander, but remember, the commander isn't the largest portion of your team, the field soldiers are. Admittedly great commanders are in short supply, but people are still learning.
We had 13 skulks rush us right at the beginning of every new round, but because our troops didn't immediately rush out of the base before fortifying it, we held against those rushes every time.
Marines can win vs. three hives, I saw it two times the other night, I was part of it.
So an alien managed to get into a good hiding spot where its difficult to remove him. That's why its a good hiding spot, because it actually takes effort to overcome. Otherwise they wouldn't use it.
Fades do a lotta damage because aliens are naturally solo artists. Yes, one HMG will NOT kill a fade. But there shouldn't be just one HMG combatting a fade, there should be 3, 4, hell, the whole troop should be moving together. If they're not, they're not playing right, and they're not playing to win.
The benefit of having a commander who sees all the different routes around the map is that if you find it impossible to capture a resource node, take another path out of your base, and try for another node. One way may be less defended than others.
However, I think there are things on both sides that need to be changed. There are things in the game that are too powerful that are only balanced because the other team has something that is also overpowered.
The skulk rush needs to be prevented, a 3 minute long game is not much fun for either team. Yet the siege cannon needs to be heavily modified, if marines build one outside an enemy hive and then defend it heavily with both turrets and players there's not much the aliens can do to stop it.
I'm not really gonna go into detail about other things, but they do exist.
I have nothing more to add to what has been mentioned in this thread so far.
In other words, with the majority of n00bs running around on our teams, how can we alrdy say so-and-so is unbalanced?
Every time I've played as marine we've won because of commanders who understood how to place siege guns. As aliens, I've lost before, and from what I can see, the times we won were because of two things 1) no siege guns were placed well enough or when they were placed they were defended shoddily; and 2) the marines didn't focus on taking and keeping one hive location. It's not just one of those things that won it for the alien but both of them that was necessary.
There were a lot of times that this happened, but I think that this can be mostly attributed to the fact that there are a lot of newbie commanders out there. From what I can see people are learning to avoid the command post unless they're good though. And soon enough I think that marines will be back to winning the majority of the time.
So a little from column A, a little from column B please.
The Frontiermen must ensure that they block a hive early on. If they can hold that hive a really tough and interesting battle evolves. If not, the On NO!'s at least finishes the game quickly.
But true, a sucky commander will fubar the commanders completly.
Aliens arent that bad, but I think the problem is there isnt much of a requirment for teamwork. If the team was limited to 2 or 3 <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> 's then people would know who to protect. As it is now either theres to many <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> 's, not enough, or rarely theres just the right ammount.
If you can get a team of people where there are 2 <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->'s and ::slulk::'s keep the pressure up on Marines its a pretty good fight.
2 Big problems I see so far:
-Heavy Armor makes it very very very hard to be killed if your anything less then a Fade. If the commander spams health packs, forget it <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Aliens seem to have a cap on how many offensive structures they can build in an area. Where as I have played games where Marines had, literally, an entire floor of <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> 's. I know, if you take out the factory they go down, but its hard to run through 30 <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo-->'s to get to it.
-Alien's offensive structures need to do a bit more damage. Marines have much more HP then most Alien classes do, so even though both turrents do the same damage (i would guess) it affects Alien's more then Marines.
I would love to see a Armor/HP increase for the weaker Alien classes like the lurker and gorge, not a big one, but just enough so they dont go splat when a Marine breathes on them.
I wholeheartedly agree with Jack. It is just sick how much lead I can fill a fade with my nerfed HMG when he's standing next to a few Defensive Chambers. Bilebombs + Spores + Onos = Win. I don't care how good the marine team thinks they are, if they have 3 hives and the Kharaa have played aliens enough to know the above combination, they win.
No, I'm not some whiney Marine player. During 1.00, I played Aliens all the time due to the Marine team being way overpopulated. I lost. A lot, but still won a few through luck and skill. And as an Alien it is much too easy now. I'd drop 3 D-chambers a few ways out of their main base (so siege turrets couldn't attack) and I'd harass them. That's right, just ONE fade taking on an entire base. They could never touch me with their grenade launchers or their HMGs. They'd either blow themselves up or run after me (only to get raped by a few offensive chambers I set up as a safety measure. They'd wound me severly, I'd run away - get full life in about 15 seconds, and run back for more. Of course, I got tired of just making them angry and decided to end the game and go Onos. Finally assisting me after I tell them I've taken out their turret factory, the rest of my n00bish team comes to my assistance. Little to no resistance after that...
I do see some Marines win still, but good execution and veteran players are REQUIRED.
Brilliant Commander + Excellent Marine Teamwork = Good chance of winning
Excellent Kharaa Teamwork = Good chance of winning
Green or semi good Commander + Excellent Marine Teamwork = Loss
Brilliant Comander + n00bish, satisfactory, or downright crappy Marine Teamwork = Loss
n00bish, satisfactory, or downright crappy Kharaa Teamwork = Loss
The Commander and can be (and usually is) a liability. I can't remember the name, but the map where the CC is in a secluded room which can only be reached via elevator for marines is EVIL. Skulk rushes are nigh invincible in this map. Or, just wait until the Marines go out to capture some resources and then run past the turrets easily (I've seen it and done it thousands of times <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->) to the CC and chomp away unhindered. No turrets fit in this room, and if you place any outside nearby, they don't shoot through the wall... Only dumb aliens lose on this map.
Then again, well place Siege Turrets are god-like. Seems when I'm an alien they use them very effectively, but when I'm Marine, my commander ignores me or is a n00b. I'm a damn good Commander. Need to learn to multi-task a bit more, but at least I know the secret to winning.
Alright I'm done. Short enough, eh?
but i feel there needs to be some slight tweaking-
1) skulk rush at the beginning too strong (varies with map size, in smaller maps they are too strong)
2) limit to no. of turrets per factory or area
3) tweak siege turret
4) it seems easier for marines to make a comeback than aliens
Marines disadvantaged.
Early game is unbalanced. Teams of equal skill should provide an easy Alien victory, due to the numbers behind the Alien economy and the weakness of early Marine weaponry.
If both teams manage
to get into mid-game, it's also frustratingly easy to outfit 50%+ of your players with HA, 90% with HMG.. even with only half the map taken over. But Aliens can be loaded too. So the mid-game isn't so much imbalanced towards either team, but I do feel it's imbalanced within each team itself (ie the LMG/shotgun becomes totally unused.. lack of HA means quick death from Fades... Skulks become obsolete..)
Maybe <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> is too powerful. Limiting the number of <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> to one-per-factory could be a good solution, but again... the game is pretty balanced now... The best teamplayers the sure winners.