the reason the guardian survived as long as he did was to try to sniff out roles. I advised the other wolves... wolf... to keep the guardian alive and assume that he will protected roles most of the time. That way, when the wolves are blocked the person is most likely a role and the guardian dies because of a correct guess. The reason nurot was chosen soon after I died was because I had told emp that he felt like a role to me. Mainly because he came on as so certain against me in a case that didn't warrant that certainty. I didn't want to kill him yet because I felt that our little tussle would lead to my death if I did kill him.
Theslan died because he was the public voice and linking element for multiple roles. It was an attempt to punch out the network. On night 2 I was almost convinced to kill theslan instead of retrying im_lost since he said he had info. But I discussed it with the other wolves and they wanted im_lost, I wasn't sure so I agreed, that and theslan was likely protected.
Actually I thought that might be it, at the time many of us didnt actually know you were a wolf, we werent informed until after we lynched mouse that you were 100% wolf it was pretty much a gut hunch at that point. Since the beginning I had 4 suspects on my list EMP Demon, you, pitlith and nil Iq. You and Demon for trying to save im lost and the last person I was pretty sure hadnt voted that night because of the wizard's transparent cry for help reminding people they had not yet voted so thats why i suspected the other 2 simply because it seemed like he was calling for the last wolf to vote and save him, turns out my hunches were pretty dead on huh <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
I told Gwahir not to try too hard defending me, because I knew I was dead as soon as I saw Theslan's post. As for me telling people to get their votes in, it was mostly a red herring. I wanted to appear to be concerned with how the humans were doing overall, rather than just trying to save myself.
Since everyone ignored the issue in the FAQ thread, I'll bring it up again here. What is the policy going to be for people being voiced in the channel? It seemed clear enough that people that weren't playing in this game were supposed to be devoiced, but Isamil pointed out multiple times that he still had voice, and no one did anything about it. A few days into the game, Petco suddenly decided to devoice all of the dead players. lolfighter later gave us voice back, though he didn't change our access level, so once we left the channel we lost voice. We need some sort of standard for that.
Another issue that came up this game is deciding when phantom votes take effect. Do they count for the day where the person failed to vote, or do they only count for future days? Petco decided that it should count for that day, and in Nil IQ's case he wasn't planning on playing anyway. There's always the possibility that someone really won't be able to make it to the forum to vote, then they return shortly after the day ends, and that could be a problem for them. I personally think counting it on that day is a good way of handling it.
I always thought that phantom vote count against you on that day. So if you didn't vote on day 1, you had a tally of .0001 votes against you. If you were tied during day 1, that would make you lynched.
I'm pretty sure that's how the game goes for all TWG rounds. I think I asked Freak83 about that during the first game I've played.
<!--QuoteBegin-im lost+Jul 22 2005, 11:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (im lost @ Jul 22 2005, 11:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Crispy, you don't understand. It wasn't just the fact that the wizard died early. Killing the wizard allowed the humans to form a solid network very early on, which was yet another bit of luck by the humans. A dead wizard AND a strong network is what made this game impossible for the wolves. The wolves might have had better odds if I died on Night 2 rather than being networked with the wolves. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Am I right in thinking that the fact that the Guardian could protect double the amount of people and the fact that Humans knew the Wolves were screwed pretty much allowed that network to be set up so quickly.
I think it would be naïve to ignore what prompted the easy establishment of the network. In most games Humans are **** scared to give away info to another player.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gwahir+Jul 23 2005, 03:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gwahir @ Jul 23 2005, 03:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ah good, that means I convinced you not to vote for me, I'm happier now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry Gwahir, you convinced no one. We decided to make it look as if you did, in order to make it seem like there was less of a network than there actually was, and possiblely to gain your confidence a little.
<!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+Jul 23 2005, 04:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy @ Jul 23 2005, 04:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-im lost+Jul 22 2005, 11:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (im lost @ Jul 22 2005, 11:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Crispy, you don't understand. It wasn't just the fact that the wizard died early. Killing the wizard allowed the humans to form a solid network very early on, which was yet another bit of luck by the humans. A dead wizard AND a strong network is what made this game impossible for the wolves. The wolves might have had better odds if I died on Night 2 rather than being networked with the wolves. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Am I right in thinking that the fact that the Guardian could protect double the amount of people and the fact that Humans knew the Wolves were screwed pretty much allowed that network to be set up so quickly.
I think it would be naïve to ignore what prompted the easy establishment of the network. In most games Humans are **** scared to give away info to another player. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No one was trying to reveal their identity in that situation. Theslan was lucky enough that he could guess both the guardian's identity and the psychic's identity. It was luck that Theslan happened to be viewing the thread both times he received an email from Freak83, and that Freak83 was also viewing the thread. It was more luck that Nurot chose IRC to contact Theslan, and didn't mask his host address (or whatever the actual term is for it). <u>(How would someone avoid this in the future?)</u>
As for why they chose to contact him, it isn't very surprising. Freak83 needed to get the information to someone that I was likely to be the wizard. It seems that by Day 2, the psychic generally has contact with someone (this is true for Nurot, Soul Rider, and me, can't remember enough from previous games).
The only really valid point you have is the fact that the guardian could protect two people. However, once the wolves identified the guardian, the guardian simply became a slightly buffed <a href='http://www.princeton.edu/~mafia/vr13.htm' target='_blank'>martyr</a>. Other than that, this game was a whole lot of luck for the humans.
And Sky, I told you so. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Fair enough, IL, you argue your points well and naturally you're more likely to know what happened in the game that I do. I still stand by my points that the Guardian needs nerfing and the Wizard needs some kind of small nerf.
Too much polarised power doesn't make for a good game type imo. Potentially very interesting, but not 'good' (can't think of how to explain good without misinterpretation).
I would agree that the guardian may have been too powerful. However, we didn't get to see how powerful the wizard is. It's supposed to be difficult for the wizard to communicate to the wolves, and the wizard can't do too much on their own. A fake seer is easier, but that is what the psychic is for, to help identify the correct seer.
Don' get me wrong, I like the idea of the Wolves team having to watch out for impersonations as well. A slightly improved version for this gametype would be really interesting to play.
If the Wizard is used again, I don't think any 50/50 stuff should apply when wolves target the Wizard. The wolves shouldn't be able to wolf the wizard. However, neither the wolves nor the guardian would know whether there was a successful guarding, or if the wolves picked the wizard. This works best if the guardian can only protect one person per night.
Nice post. Here's a summary of what I'd consider your <i>improvements</i> on the Wizard ruleset:
<span style='color:red'>Wolves target Wizard:</span> Wolves cannot kill wizard. In this case they would not know if the Guardian saved their target or if he/she is, indeed, their ally the Wizard. <span style='color:yellow'>Gameplay Ramifications:</span> Wolves need to be more careful about how they approach their failed targets, but also know that they might be just the one they need to talk to. Cue: much tiptoeing and very interesting gameplay.
<span style='color:green'>Guardian makes a save:</span> This is assuming the Guardian can only make one save per night. The Guardian has the option of self-sacrifice for a consecutive save. <span style='color:yellow'>Gameplay Ramifications:</span> If the Guardian makes a save, he/she will know that the survivor could be the Wizard. The Guardian will now need, more than ever, to ask the Seer to target the survivor. To do this the Guardian must either form a network (risky) or ask the seer anonymously (somehow). Even then the Seer would have to reveal this info anonymously (somehow) or form a network with a confirmed Human who's willing to be sacrificed to get the info out.
Comments
Theslan died because he was the public voice and linking element for multiple roles. It was an attempt to punch out the network. On night 2 I was almost convinced to kill theslan instead of retrying im_lost since he said he had info. But I discussed it with the other wolves and they wanted im_lost, I wasn't sure so I agreed, that and theslan was likely protected.
Since everyone ignored the issue in the FAQ thread, I'll bring it up again here. What is the policy going to be for people being voiced in the channel? It seemed clear enough that people that weren't playing in this game were supposed to be devoiced, but Isamil pointed out multiple times that he still had voice, and no one did anything about it. A few days into the game, Petco suddenly decided to devoice all of the dead players. lolfighter later gave us voice back, though he didn't change our access level, so once we left the channel we lost voice. We need some sort of standard for that.
Another issue that came up this game is deciding when phantom votes take effect. Do they count for the day where the person failed to vote, or do they only count for future days? Petco decided that it should count for that day, and in Nil IQ's case he wasn't planning on playing anyway. There's always the possibility that someone really won't be able to make it to the forum to vote, then they return shortly after the day ends, and that could be a problem for them. I personally think counting it on that day is a good way of handling it.
I'm pretty sure that's how the game goes for all TWG rounds. I think I asked Freak83 about that during the first game I've played.
Am I right in thinking that the fact that the Guardian could protect double the amount of people and the fact that Humans knew the Wolves were screwed pretty much allowed that network to be set up so quickly.
I think it would be naïve to ignore what prompted the easy establishment of the network. In most games Humans are **** scared to give away info to another player.
Sorry Gwahir, you convinced no one. We decided to make it look as if you did, in order to make it seem like there was less of a network than there actually was, and possiblely to gain your confidence a little.
Then again...it was my first time as a vanilla human I think, so that prolly has something to do with it. >_>
Am I right in thinking that the fact that the Guardian could protect double the amount of people and the fact that Humans knew the Wolves were screwed pretty much allowed that network to be set up so quickly.
I think it would be naïve to ignore what prompted the easy establishment of the network. In most games Humans are **** scared to give away info to another player. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one was trying to reveal their identity in that situation. Theslan was lucky enough that he could guess both the guardian's identity and the psychic's identity. It was luck that Theslan happened to be viewing the thread both times he received an email from Freak83, and that Freak83 was also viewing the thread. It was more luck that Nurot chose IRC to contact Theslan, and didn't mask his host address (or whatever the actual term is for it). <u>(How would someone avoid this in the future?)</u>
As for why they chose to contact him, it isn't very surprising. Freak83 needed to get the information to someone that I was likely to be the wizard. It seems that by Day 2, the psychic generally has contact with someone (this is true for Nurot, Soul Rider, and me, can't remember enough from previous games).
The only really valid point you have is the fact that the guardian could protect two people. However, once the wolves identified the guardian, the guardian simply became a slightly buffed <a href='http://www.princeton.edu/~mafia/vr13.htm' target='_blank'>martyr</a>. Other than that, this game was a whole lot of luck for the humans.
And Sky, I told you so. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Too much polarised power doesn't make for a good game type imo. Potentially very interesting, but not 'good' (can't think of how to explain good without misinterpretation).
<span style='color:red'>Wolves target Wizard:</span>
Wolves cannot kill wizard. In this case they would not know if the Guardian saved their target or if he/she is, indeed, their ally the Wizard.
<span style='color:yellow'>Gameplay Ramifications:</span>
Wolves need to be more careful about how they approach their failed targets, but also know that they might be just the one they need to talk to. Cue: much tiptoeing and very interesting gameplay.
<span style='color:green'>Guardian makes a save:</span>
This is assuming the Guardian can only make one save per night. The Guardian has the option of self-sacrifice for a consecutive save.
<span style='color:yellow'>Gameplay Ramifications:</span>
If the Guardian makes a save, he/she will know that the survivor could be the Wizard. The Guardian will now need, more than ever, to ask the Seer to target the survivor. To do this the Guardian must either form a network (risky) or ask the seer anonymously (somehow). Even then the Seer would have to reveal this info anonymously (somehow) or form a network with a confirmed Human who's willing to be sacrificed to get the info out.
Yes, this could be interesting.