Twg Vii Gorge Paradise Postgame

Petco · July 2005

<div class="IPBDescription">Postgame, Gorges won!</div>The game was really interesting at the start, when 2 players weren't killed, but then the game started to become slow, shortly after most of the players that post the most were killed, and some players were busy.

Now the awards.
MVP: <b>Theslan</b> for created the network for humans, joining the three roles, guardian, seer, psychic together, and others, to trust each other. He did it quickly as well <insert smiley>.

Other VPs: <b>Freak83</b>, successfully guarding im lost, and then sacrificed himself for Nurot, letting him live for another day, allowing him to tell how many wolves were left an extra time. Freak83 also found out im lost was the wizard, the wolves also found out as well, but a wizard down was better than a guardian going down.

<b>Stukov</b>: He found out who was the wolf at the very start, then found the last remaining wolf, together with other humans, they quickly were able to confirm who was actually a human and who was actually a wolf.

<b>Nurot</b>: Able to confirm who was killed, if the person was a wolf or a human, he also helped greatly by letting other humans in the network trust each other, and finding out if who the humans were voting for, were actually wolves. When Freak83 sacrificed himself to save Nurot for another night, it was all he needed to find out Nil IQ was the 2nd wolf who died.

<span style="color:green">1. Sky Human (Survived!)</span>
<span style="color:green">2. Theslan Human (Wolfed on Night 3)</span>
<span style="color:red">3. EMP Demon Wolf (Lynched last, Day 6)</span>
<span style="color:green">4. Fatal Error Human (Wolfed on Night 4)</span>
<span style="color:green">5. Renegade Human (Survived!</span>
<span style="color:green">6. BadKarma Human (Survived!)</span>
<span style="color:blue">7. Freak83 Guardian (Wolfed by guess, on night 5, Nurot survived!)</span>
<span style="color:green">8. Snidely/Condizzle Human (Survived!)</span>
<span style="color:red">9. Gwahir Wolf (Lynched on Day 4)</span>
<span style="color:green">10. lolfighter Human (Survived!)</span>
<span style="color:blue">11. Nurot Psychic (Wolfed on night 6 )</span>
<span style="color:green">12. Mouse Human (Lynched on Day 3)</span>
<span style="color:purple">13. im lost Wizard (Lynched on Day 2)</span>
<span style="color:green">14. Hellfire3k Human (Lynched on day 1)</span>
<span style="color:blue">15. Stukov Seer (Survived!)</span>
<span style="color:green">16. TheMuffinMan Human (Survived!)</span>
<span style="color:green">17. Planetkiller Human (Survived!)</span>
<span style="color:red">18. Nil IQ Wolf (Lynched on Day 5)</span>
<span style="color:green">19. Pithlit Human (Survived!)</span>
<span style="color:green">20. CMEast Human (Survived!)</span>

Night 1:
Stukov seers Gwahir.
Freak83 successfully protects, im lost.
Im lost checks Renegade

Day 1:
Hellfire3k is lynched.

Night 2:
Stukov seers Theslan
Im lost checks Snidely/Condizzle
Wolves attack im lost, his 50% chance to reveal himself activates. Freak83 guards TheMuffinMan and Theslan.

Day 2:
Im lost is lynched.

Night 3:
Wolves kill Theslan
Stukov seers TheMuffinMan
Freak83 protects Sky and Condizzle.

Day 3:
Mouse is lynched.

Night 4:
Stuvok seers lolfighter
Freak83 protects TheMuffinMan and Nurot.
Wolves attack Fatal Error.

Day 4:
Gwahir is lynched.

Night 5:
Nurot is attacked by wolves,
Freak83 Protects Nurot and TheMuffinMan, Freak83 dies because wolves guessed right.
Stukov seers Nurot.

Day 5:
Nil IQ is lynched (partly because of him forgetting to vote <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />)

Night 6:
Wolf attacks Nurot
Stukov seers EMP Demon (last wolf).

Day 6:
EMP Demon is lynched, humans win!

Here is some of the things that I thought about
Night 1:
Wow, Stukov seers a wolf already, so I thought humans would get a good lead against wolves now, as long as Stukov lives and forms/joins a network of humans.

Day 1:
Wolves attacks im lost, Freak83 guards im lost, now this is where I thought the game would start to become interesting. Freak83 takes a risk and tells im lost he is the guardian, he knows he could well be a wizard, but it was a very low chance.

Freak83 tries to get votes off of im lost as well. He also protected Im lost and Nil IQ because, Freak83 had a feeling im lost was going to be attacked, also the fact that in most of the games, im lost usally dies real early <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> .

Night 2 and Day 2:
So the wolves attacks im lost, his 50% chance to reveal himself activates (random.org) and then I think, the wolves were ahead now, but I forgot the fact that Freak83 will find out Im lost is the wizard, humans then find out that a wizard activated himself.

Freak83 then tells Theslan what happened, Also im lost didn't want Freak83 to contact Theslan didn't help convince Freak83 he was human caused Freak83 to be sure that Im lost is really the wizard.

Then Theslan started saying how he is in contact with the guardian, and told everyone that im lost, the person the guardian was protecting, is highly to be the wizard. Many players vote off im lost, ending the wizard in this TWG (I hoped he lived a little longer <insert frown>).

After all that, I think wolves are a little screwed, 2 humans weren't killed because of the guardian/wizard in the first 2 days. Then again, Im lost told wolves 2 players that didn't have any roles. Also Freak83 is the guardian.

Night 3, 4 and Day 3, 4:
Freak83 is known to be the guardian to the wolves, at this point, I'm not sure who's closer to winning, but it seems even.

Wolves kill Theslan, but before then, Theslan tells everyone to trust CMEast and Themuffinman, in IRC before he dies. More humans, joined the network, causing the humans to have an advantage.

Humans know Gwahir is the wolf (Because of stukov in the human network), but humans decide not to kill Gwahir just yet, some of the humans think Mouse is a wolf, so they decide to vote him off, and check with the Nurot (Psychic) if he was a wolf or not.

Freak83 also tells Themuffinman he is the guardian, humans find out Nurot is the psychic as well. Nurot tells humans he trusted Planetkiller, Badkarma, and Stukov.

It really sounds like the humans were going to win now, seeing how all 3 roles were now in contact, and they were also trusted as humans.

I wasn't sure what the plan on the wolves is, since they didn't PM me much, seems like the wolves were leaving Freak83 alive, attacking who they think has a role, if protected, then that person probably has one or an important person, then they would tract down who probably knows to and kill them as well.

Pretty much the rest:
The humans vote off Gwahir, which they were sure of, is a wolf, because of the seer of course. After he was gone, the wolves attack Nurot, but Freak83 was killed because of wolves guessing right, this was important as well.

Nil IQ was then voted off for being inactive, also with 2 phantom votes, with Nurot alive, he found out Nil IQ was a wolf. Unfortunately Nil IQ forgot to vote or forgot he was playing, because I thought I saw him posting in off topic an hour before the day ended.

After that happened, Stukov, the seer, seered EMP Demon, the last wolf and it was pretty much victory for the wolves.

Also because everything was so quiet, it was kind of hard to judge what was going on, since Gwahir was dead, and wolves weren't sure of stukov, I think humans were still closer to victory than wolves. No one really PMed me strats either.

This is all I remember, be sure to add.

If you want to host the next game, PM Freak83 with everything about the TWG you're hosting.

<u><b>Edit: This is really late edit (more than one year later)</b></u> but I would have gotten it in sooner if the forums didn't go down. Anyway I apologize for some rule misunderstandings. I've learned much about hosting and I'll probably make sure to explain the rules as well as possible clearly if I host again.

It was a good game, though there were a lot of "unlucky" things that happened(net going down, wolves getting beat real early, inactive players, etc), if I host again I'll do my best to keep the rules clear.

I really want to try this wizard role again for my game, so I may be applying for host again as soon as I think of a story for it.

Fatal_Error · July 2005

Good Game, everyone.

EMP_Demon · July 2005

Yeah, good game. At least I was able to take out two roles by myself (Although it was Gwahir's info that helped me do it).

And a nice DAMNENING to Nil, who barely helped us and pretty much handicapped the wolves =/

Renegade · July 2005

Good game guys. Is Freak taking host applications now?

Fatal_Error · July 2005

I would think so.

My idea: 1 human wolfed, 2 humans picked to be converted each night.

Out of those 2, 1 will be converted to a wolf. You cannot make a network with a human! That is cheating and will get you and the human you contacted killed.

It would be a typical 3 wolves 18 humans game.

BadKarma · July 2005

Fun stuff.

Theslan · July 2005

I hope he is able to take hosts soon. Just some information on my side to add to Petco:

By Night 1, I have determined that Freak83 was the guardian. It was mainly a wild guess, because I noticed that when I received an email, Freak83 was on the thread. Both times.

Also, because of the seer by Stukov, I was able to lock down 2 roles. My original plan was to lynch Gwahir by Day 2, since Stukov told me about him being the wolf. I was going to use CMEast and Gwahir having conflicted info about the false guardians. But im lost was targetted, resulting no death, and causing both the guardian and I to move very quickly in getting rid of him.

At Night 2, I was contacted anomyously by the psychic, but because of special circumstances, I was able to pinpoint who that person was. So by this time, I had all three roles locked in. I told the seer to look at Muffinman as a backup in case I died (which happened).

Pretty much when the wizard died, I linked all three roles, Muffinman, CMEast, and Snidely/Condizzle together. Only Muffinman really knew all the roles; I made a lot of checks and balances around to make sure that the information was correct and no one person, except Muffinman, knew all the roles. This was to prevent the chance of a wolf pretending to be a role in that network.

--------------------

Btw, here's my new game:
Players: 18.
Wolves 3 + 1 conversion.
All three roles: seer, psychic, and guardian.

Conversion: during night 1, the wolves get to choose one player to convert to the wolves.

NOTE: Night 1 is two days. The first day the wolves get to choose one player to convert. After that, the night is normal: the three human roles are passed out by random.org, and the wolves get to choose one player to wolf.

CHANGES to GUARDIAN:
The role of the guardian is similar to Petco. The guardian can choose to block one-two players up til 10 players total. When that number of players goes below that, the guardian can only block one player. If the guardian guards two players and successfully blocks, the wolves have a chance to guess correctly the guardian's name and kill the guardian. If the guardian only guards one player, the guess is no longer applied. The guardian CANNOT guard the same player two nights in a row, regardless of situation. If there is a successful block, ONLY the guardian knows which player he successfully blocked. The name will not be annouced.

Mouse · July 2005

Let me just say, my death sucked.

Gwahir · July 2005

I'd say I did a pretty good job trying to get people not to vote for me.

I wouldn't have been lynched if nil was more on top of things.

hey emp, didn't I nearly decide to kill stukov the first night? Too bad I didn't.

Gwahir · July 2005

theslan, I wasn't going to fall for that trap, I was going to give info correctly. Really man give me more credit than that.

Byeka · July 2005

I didn't even realise I died earlier than I would have. I thought the wolves chose to attack me.

Yes, you can email me at freak83 AT gmail DOT com with your host apps now.

Include,

Forum Name
Number of Players
Number of Wolves
Comments: (Standard game or your rule variations).

That was a good game despite the major inactivity near the end, I'll talk to Breakthough about the new sigs too.

im_lost · July 2005

First, my notes that I made while I was still alive.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (my notes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>TWG 7

Gwahir - wolf (confirmed by failed wolfing)
EMP Demon - wolf (confirmed by failed wolfing)
Nil IQ - wolf (confirmed by failed wolfing)
Renegade - Plain human (day 1)
Snidely - Plain human (day 2)
Freak83 - guardian (unconfirmed, but it's practically guaranteed)

I am the wizard.

Night One

Checked Renegade, he is a plain human. It's night one, the choice was pretty random.

[08:25] <+^Fatal^-_-^Error^> Oh crap I forgot to PM Petco.
[08:25] <+^Fatal^-_-^Error^> Damnit...
[08:25] <+^Fatal^-_-^Error^> -_-
[08:25] <+EMPDemon> Good thing IRC is universal
[08:25] <+EMPDemon> You have to PM petco?

I don't know if he was joking or not, but depending on how the day goes, maybe I should check Fatal Error tomorrow night.

Day one

No one dies, which everyone is happy about. Lots of discussion about random voting, lolfighter seems completely against it, but as everyone else knows, there's not much else that can happen. Freak83 tells me he is the guardian and he saved me last night. If that's true, it means the wolves picked the wizard (17:1 odds), random.org said I should die (2:1 odds), and the guardian also picked the wizard (19:2 odds). That's 323:1 odds. Should I check Freak83 to confirm the story? If he's telling the truth, will the wolves target me again? If I die, that would really suck, good game wolves. If I survive and form a network, Freak83 knows about the network, and he would suspect me immediately. Even if he gets me lynched, I would still make sure he gets wolved. Finding a role without having to check or do any work is nice. Then again, he could be a wolf trying to manipulate me.

Reading over Snidely's latest post, he seems like he could easily be a wolf. He might be a good person to check.

Possible people to check so far:
Fatal Error
Freak83
Snidely

Night Two

Checked Snidely, plain human. I was really hoping to find a role or wolf on that one, something about his posts seemed strange. I also had an interesting forum PM conversation with him.

Theslan was contacted by someone claiming to be the guardian, and he asked if I was contacted, because he wanted to check what was said. I told him I wasn't contacted. He figures it doesn't make sense for me to be lying, because I would probably die tonight anyway. However, he isn't taking the wizard into account at all. The less he trusts the person (Freak83 anonymously, I'm sure), the better. Plus, if there's a confirmed wolf/wizard network tonight, I don't want it to be too easy to for people to track down the wizard. Freak83 will know right away, and Snidely might be suspicious. It was stupid of me to confirm that I had been contacted when I talked with Snidely. Oh well, too late.

Day Two

I did not expect Theslan and Freak83 to get such a solid network so quickly. Since Theslan has been seered, that's really going to be hard to break apart. Do I say that Theslan's guardian lying and stand by my statement that I wasn't contacted? That has the additional problem that I separately told Snidely that I was contacted, so that would be TWO people that know for sure I am lying. My other option is to admit I was contacted by the guardian, defend my decision to lie to Theslan, and act innocent. This allows me to be mostly truthful, but still leaves the question, why would someone else get targeted besides me?

After talking with Gwahir, I decide on telling the truth (for the most part). No matter what happens, if I die, then the guardian can follow me. Unfortunately, the seer has a nice head start since humans haven't been dying at night. If the seer doesn't die soon, that could be disastrous.

Gwahir, I would like to thank you for making this game stressful for me for the second game in a row (since you are basically leading the wolves, as you told me). I considered being a fake seer this game, which would have been simple enough (plain humans and wolves are humans, roles are wolves; unfortunately, I didn't figure it all out until the middle of Day One). However, this game is stressful enough, it would be a nightmare if I had to keep track of being a fake seer along with this.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Clearly, the fact that the wolves and guardian both picked the wizard on night one created a very strange situation. Add to that the fact that a wolf was seered on night one, and the wolves didn't have much of a chance in this game. I could have possibly salvaged the situation, but it would have been very difficult to do. It would have meant being a fake seer from the very beginning, then telling Snidely that I wasn't contacted by a guardian (which I should have done anyway), then sending Theslan an anonymous email in response to his call for information (which I almost did), then denying that I was contacted when Theslan asked, and sticking to that story. If Theslan believed me over Freak83, then I could have lived on, and as a fake seer I could have saved Gwahir later on.

I was quite disappointed with all of the inactivity that happened later in the game. I'm pretty sure this game had more phantom votes than all of the previous games combined.

Stukov · July 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gwahir @ Jul 20 2005, 10:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I'd say I did a pretty good job trying to get people not to vote for me.

I wouldn't have been lynched if nil was more on top of things.

hey emp, didn't I nearly decide to kill stukov the first night? Too bad I didn't.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I don't know. More humans knew about you than you may think. Many of us were just trying to hold off the pressure. I personally would've voted, had I actually been around to post that evening ;(

And as for killing me...that could've made quite the difference. Without me trusting Theslan, things could've turned out quite differently for his network.

That being said, I'm curious as to how im lost's fake seer would've worked out. Could've made my life a bit more interesting

Snidely · July 2005

You had some really bad luck, i'm lost.

It's a shame I couldn't stick around; I trusted Thelsan with the i'm lost thing, and would have networked. I advised Condizzle to stick with you, but he didn't seem to do anything at all. Ah well.

Pithlit · July 2005

Was a nice game, but sadly there was very little information flow amongst humans this time <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' />

TheMuffinMan · July 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pithlit @ Jul 21 2005, 09:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Was a nice game, but sadly there was very little information flow amongst humans this time <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' />  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
There was loads of information going around, but we did a good job of restricting it.

For example, we (Theslan, later me and later lolfighter) knew all three roles. That there provided us with a goldmine of information. However, the seer knew neither of the other roles by name, the guardian only knew the psychic, and the psychic knew neither the seer or the guardian. Quite a few other humans (CMEast, planetkiller) knew the name of a role.

The information was there, but we were lucky enough to have the wizard die. That meant that we could just lie low until we found all the wolves.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I'd say I did a pretty good job trying to get people not to vote for me.

I wouldn't have been lynched if nil was more on top of things.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

To be honest, a hell of a lot of humans knew that you were a wolf. We decided to keep you alive (and kill mouse instead) to see if you would lead us anywhere. Unfortunately, the other wolves pretty much kept to their own devices, so we killed you the next day.

Crispy · July 2005

Heh I had a feeling this game wouldn't be that great. As I predicted the Wizard was overpowered, and because when the Wolves lost him they lost this overpoweredness, they kinda just got raped.

I also never liked the Guardian double-save idea, in reflection I have an idea that would make this better, but I'll come to that later.

It also really didn't help that people weren't active enough. I think that this, mixed with a weak set of rules (no offence Petco, your story was <b>ACE</b>) didn't make this that exciting.

Mouse · July 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheMuffinMan @ Jul 21 2005, 07:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I'd say I did a pretty good job trying to get people not to vote for me.

I wouldn't have been lynched if nil was more on top of things.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

To be honest, a hell of a lot of humans knew that you were a wolf. We decided to keep you alive (and kill mouse instead) to see if you would lead us anywhere. Unfortunately, the other wolves pretty much kept to their own devices, so we killed you the next day.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
gee, thanks <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />

Snidely · July 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy @ Jul 21 2005, 05:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Heh I had a feeling this game wouldn't be that great. As I predicted the Wizard was overpowered, and because when the Wolves lost him they lost this overpoweredness, they kinda just got raped.

I also never liked the Guardian double-save idea, in reflection I have an idea that would make this better, but I'll come to that later.

It also really didn't help that people weren't active enough. I think that this, mixed with a weak set of rules (no offence Petco, your story was <b>ACE</b>) didn't make this that exciting. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I don't think this was a fair try-out of the wizard's effectiveness.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Clearly, the fact that the wolves and guardian both picked the wizard on night one created a very strange situation. Add to that the fact that a wolf was seered on night one, and the wolves didn't have much of a chance in this game. I could have possibly salvaged the situation, but it would have been very difficult to do.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Petco)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So the wolves attacks im lost, his 50% chance to reveal himself activates (random.org) and then I think, the wolves were ahead now, but I forgot the fact that Freak83 will find out Im lost is the wizard, humans then find out that a wizard activated himself.

Freak83 then tells Theslan what happened, Also im lost didn't want Freak83 to contact Theslan didn't help convince Freak83 he was human caused Freak83 to be sure that Im lost is really the wizard.

Then Theslan started saying how he is in contact with the guardian, and told everyone that im lost, the person the guardian was protecting, is highly to be the wizard. Many players vote off im lost, ending the wizard in this TWG (I hoped he lived a little longer <insert frown>).

After all that, I think wolves are a little screwed, 2 humans weren't killed because of the guardian/wizard in the first 2 days. Then again, Im lost told wolves 2 players that didn't have any roles. Also Freak83 is the guardian.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
The problem was that both the guardian and the seer hit two of the wolves' battleships right off the bat. The wolves really need those first couple of days with most people in the dark in order to thin the herd, and set in motion their strategies; with a human network up quite early, they were denied that. The wizard may have been able to turn it around, but was found out early on (as soon as he discovered the wolves) and wiped out. He didn't find a role, either. Very unlucky.

lolfighter · July 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mouse @ Jul 21 2005, 01:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> gee, thanks <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Oh I just blurted out laughing (bol?) when I read that. Poor Mouse. I told you he should stay alive. XD

We got lucky several times, not only with that whole guardian/wizard business, but also late in the game. When I called for Nil IQ's death, I had no idea at all that he was a wolf, in fact I was pretty sure he wasn't. Would a wolf be that inactive? No, my reasoning for voting for him was exactly as I said: Nobody had any idea who the remaining two wolves were, so I simply voted for somebody who wouldn't be a loss to our side. At the same time, I advised that we should seer EMP Demon. I don't even remember quite why, it was kind of a hunch based on his behaviour. He was "acting suspicious." Not much to go on, but as it turns out, my gut instinct was right. And so we went from two unidentified wolves one day to one dead wolf and the last one identified on the next day.

And so we end TWG VII with a record number of survivors, both numerically and percentually - 10 survivors, 50% of our players.

im_lost · July 2005

Oh yeah, the lack of anonymous login for the forum has really annoyed me the last couple of games. It means I actually have to view the forum as a guest when I don't want people to see that I'm reading it. The same thing probably occurred to Freak83 after Theslan discovered who he was.

Byeka · July 2005

I feel bad about this Nurot, I had to lead you on thinking I was a clueless human >_<

<Nurot> So whats your take on this im lost was a wizard, thelsan was a liar, im lost was the gaurdian, condizzle is the gaurdian, hellfire was a wolf whats you theory
<Nurot> Im just asking cause your one of the ones i simply havent talked to yet
<[sA]Freak83> im lost was the wizard
<[sA]Freak83> theslan was not a liar
<[sA]Freak83> guardian i don't have an oppinion
<[sA]Freak83> that's my take
<Nurot> Know do you have any proff that im lost was the wizard?
<Nurot> *proof
<Nurot> Basically what makes you say the above
<[sA]Freak83> i don't have any proof, i just believe theslan's and the guardian's theory. he had way too strong a case against him
<Nurot> so whyd you vote keep your vote for badkarma?
<[sA]Freak83> because im lost was dead regardless
<[sA]Freak83> and i had just based my vote on badkarma for him casting an vote on someone who was dead regardless
<[sA]Freak83> why would i turn around and do the exact thing i based a vote on?
<Nurot> good point
<Nurot> What do yu think about fatal?
<[sA]Freak83> i haven't paid too much attention to him honestly
<Nurot> ok what about gwahir?
<[sA]Freak83> i think he's a wolf
<Nurot> now why
<[sA]Freak83> i was reading some of the stuff in IRC yesterday
<[sA]Freak83> he was defending im lost's case very strongly
<[sA]Freak83> and i just told you i believe it to be true that im lost was the wizard
<Nurot> right
<Nurot> You do realize that your name is up on the list of suspects
<Nurot> pretty far down there
<Nurot> but its there
<[sA]Freak83> yeah, that usually happens to me on one level or another
<Nurot> i personally
<Nurot> think your vote against BK was random
<[sA]Freak83> if that's what you think but it wasn't
<Nurot> wasnt random?
<Nurot> Oh right
<[sA]Freak83> i don't think he is a wolf as strongly as i do gwahir but i still have my own suspicions of him
<Nurot> of BK
<[sA]Freak83> yes
<[sA]Freak83> what do you think of me?
<Nurot> I suspect in this order Gwahir, Fatal and Lost
<Nurot> You I TEND TO THINK OF AS A HUMAN AT THIS POINT
<Nurot> reverse caps that
<Nurot> I could be making a bad judgemetnt call
<Nurot> but a couple of us were talking it over
<Nurot> and we dont think you voted BK to dsave lost
<Nurot> Now gwahir
<[sA]Freak83> i didn't
<Nurot> he voted for fatal
<Nurot> then switched to BK
<[sA]Freak83> if it looked like it was going to be a tie i was going to switch to lost anyway
<Nurot> after lost was in trouble
<Nurot> and lost and mouse also voted for bk
<Nurot> mouse has been silent
<Nurot> way too silent
<Nurot> and acting odd
<Nurot> Fatal
<Nurot> has been strongly defending gwahir
<Nurot> for no reason at all
<[sA]Freak83> well
<[sA]Freak83> it's fatal's first game
<Nurot> and also is voting for you I believe
<[sA]Freak83> he might not know how to play a wolf properally
<Nurot> to aleviate his a gwahirs hides
<[sA]Freak83> the fact that gwahir is voting for you
<Nurot> So I guess what are your thoughts and have you spoken with any other humans, you dont have to tell me who
<[sA]Freak83> i talked with theslan a bit
<Nurot> Mind me asking how that conversation went>
<[sA]Freak83> what do you mean?
<Nurot> Like whatd you talk about, certainly not the weather
<[sA]Freak83> im lost obviously
<Nurot> obviously
<Nurot> what do you make of shy?
<[sA]Freak83> sky?
<Nurot> *sky
<Nurot> yeah
<[sA]Freak83> ugh
<[sA]Freak83> i NEVER know what to make of sky
<[sA]Freak83> he plays well
<[sA]Freak83> since gwahir is voting for you i'm assuming you're human right now
<Nurot> Ok so let me throw this at you
<Nurot> Theslan said there was a 6 person human alliance
<Nurot> this was before he died
<Nurot> a few of us think
<Nurot> Its the 6 people who voted for lost
<Nurot> That leaves 5
<Nurot> Now 9 are needed for an insta lynch
<Nurot> Thelsan assuming he is trusty worthy, and I know he was
<[sA]Freak83> Theslan, Condizzle, Planetkiller, CMEast, Stukov, Nurot
<Nurot> Said he knew seer gaurdain and psychic
<Nurot> right
<[sA]Freak83> right
<Nurot> Ive been in contact with all but east and condizzle
<Nurot> and 2 extra
<Nurot> The wizard being im lost is dead
<Nurot> but the wolves know who the gaurdian is
<[sA]Freak83> so they'll probably kill him next
<Nurot> probably
<Nurot> Im thinking we should pick a target and speed things up before the wolves can spread confusion
<Nurot> Not tonight but sotime tommrowo
<Nurot> Seeing as accroding to thensal
<[sA]Freak83> well i go to work at 5:00 est
<[sA]Freak83> so if you want me in on it speak to me before then
<Nurot> The Seer knows the name of the gaurdian and the gaurdian knows the name of the psychic
<Nurot> If we insta lynch at 9 then well immedaitely know from thje human alliance
<[sA]Freak83> and the psychic is in the dark?
<Nurot> if he was a wolf
<Nurot> possibly
<Nurot> im not sure at this point
<Nurot> I know who of use is human but I have no idea who knows what and what the roles are
<[sA]Freak83> <Theslan> I've PM both CMEast and TheMuffinman of whom to trust next round.
<[sA]Freak83> i thought i saw that in the log on page 13
<Nurot> Yeah some of us are thinking its east he trusts
<[sA]Freak83> well he said he pm'd both east and TMM
<Nurot> Hence hed be testing muffin man
<[sA]Freak83> so he must trust both of them
<Nurot> Not true
<Nurot> He didnt trust gwahir
<Nurot> and on day 2
<Nurot> he pmed him as one of the 2
<Nurot> for instructions on his death'
<[sA]Freak83> wait
<[sA]Freak83> he PM'd Gwahir for instructions on his death?
<[sA]Freak83> that doesn't make sense
<Nurot> just one sec lemme find the post
<Nurot> page 8 very top
<Nurot> and I was informed recently that he never trusted gwahir
<[sA]Freak83> the only problem i have voting for gwahir right now
<[sA]Freak83> is that it will look again like i am going back on what i said
<[sA]Freak83> about overkilling a player with votes
<[sA]Freak83> lemmie count how many votes he has on him anyway
<Nurot> 1
<Nurot> mine
<Nurot> 3 people are waiting to vote because i told them too
<Nurot> and planet changed his to mouse for now
<[sA]Freak83> 1 vote only?
<[sA]Freak83> i thought he had more than that
<[sA]Freak83> hold on, i'm doing a tally
<Nurot> So people dont think something like a me and planet conspiracy like gwahir suggested in irc
<[sA]Freak83> i try not to believe wolves
<[sA]Freak83> it makes things worse
<Nurot> Anyways I was just thinking heres the logic
<Nurot> If I talk to condizzla and east and sky wed have 9 votes, we just have to pick the person we suspect the most
<Nurot> Instalynch him
<Nurot> and let the psychic find out if he was a wolf
<Nurot> the wolves never really even get a say so
<[sA]Freak83> want me to vote for Gwahir now?
<[sA]Freak83> he only has 1 vote so i wouldn't be going back on anything i've said
<Nurot> Sure go ahead and vote for him
<[sA]Freak83> k
<Nurot> After this if we find out he wasnt a wolf well have to re-examine things
<[sA]Freak83> i seriously doubt he's not
<[sA]Freak83> i have a strong hunch about him
<Nurot> Same
<[sA]Freak83> and usually my strong hunches turn out to be accurate
<[sA]Freak83> i wonder if i should just say that in the post
<Nurot> say what?
<[sA]Freak83> Voting for Gwahir. I have a strong hunch about him being a wolf, and usually my strong hunches turn out to be accurate.
<Nurot> dont see why not
<[sA]Freak83> alright
<[sA]Freak83> done and done
<Nurot> k
<Nurot> I will speak with you later then
<Nurot> after I speak with some more people if we are lucky well insta lynch him and find out by the end of tommorow the truth
<Nurot> night
<[sA]Freak83> remember before 5:00 est tomorrow
<Nurot> right
<[sA]Freak83> night then

Byeka · July 2005

By the way, might want to start sending me those host apps soon.

CMEast · July 2005

Hmm, I knew bits and pieces but I really didn't have a clue as to the full picture, still I trusted TMM and because I didn't want the network to be in danger I tried to keep low and make random posts until I learned enough to do more.

Ah well, I survived <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

Stukov · July 2005

Freak, I did the same thing to Nurot. He contacted me before I knew who he was and said that he suspected I was the seer. I ended up confusing him so much he had no idea what to believe...at least until I seered him <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

BadKarma · July 2005

Im glad I could be the meatshield.

Gwahir · July 2005

wolves just got really unlucky this game. I was seered on the first night and the wizard was discovered way too early.

edit: and nil forgot he was playing, I still say I wouldn't have died if my allies covered for me a little better.

Crispy · July 2005

Yeah it was unlucky that the Wizard got taken out early, but surely the fact that the whole concept of this game type pivoted on his and the Guardian's survival shows that it is flawed.

Would you be saying the same thing if the Guardian had been wolfed on the first night and the Wolves had contacted the Wizard and killed off every single Human?

The record number of Human survivors only goes to underline the flaws in making the roles too important.

Snidely · July 2005

Yeah, it would be a freak result if the reverse happened, i.e. no-one protected, only vanilla humans seer'd, the wolves kill the roles early on, and the wolves form an early alliance with the wizard. It wasn't just the taking out of the wizard that won the game for the humans; look at the lynching of Nil IQ, for example. To really judge how well the wizard works, we'll need to have more games with him.

im_lost · July 2005

Crispy, you don't understand. It wasn't just the fact that the wizard died early. Killing the wizard allowed the humans to form a solid network very early on, which was yet another bit of luck by the humans. A dead wizard AND a strong network is what made this game impossible for the wolves. The wolves might have had better odds if I died on Night 2 rather than being networked with the wolves.

Theslan · July 2005

To add another point, it was an unroled human that found out all three roles unintentionally. And really, this game was extremely unlucky for the wolves considering these points:

- Seer had to seer the wolf, and then me.
- Guardian guarded the wizard, along with the wizard being targetted. That alone is pretty low odds.
- I guessed the guardian correctly. Guardian contacts me.
(At this point, the guardian is pretty much verified by me)
- The seered wolf starts making a huge case on wizard. Nobody else seems to be doing this, and they all say it's a good risk benefit, considering.
(Seer is semi-confirmed - wolf tries to protect wizard - stories match up)
- Psychic contacts me anonymously, but doesn't hide his identity well.
- Psychic confirms wizard kill.
(Psychic is semi-confirmed as well - stories match up with the other two roles)

Notice how the wizard role and death manages to get me 3 roles together. If the wizard died instead of surviving, I would not known the psychic. At best, I had an inking of who the guardian was and would not move on such a desperate measure on guessing the guardian. I would be still connected to the seer. The three roles would be apart. It was the unusual circumstance that got the wizard together with the wolves. If the guardian didn't protect the wizard, the game could've been very bad for the humans.